[civilian75]

This is an appeal to Tikka t-3 .308 Varmint handloaders!

Been shooting 147gr surplus and it is ok. Already getting sub-MOA groups @ 100yr even before completing break in. But I bought this baby for long range shooting, so I just got me a Rock Chucker Supreme. Been buying materials and reading manual #14. Placed orders for 200ea Lapua cases and 2,000ea CCI LR BR2 primers and 50ea Nossler partition 180gr, just to get me started. Also go some cheap Remington once-used cases and a handful of 147gr FMJ to mess with before I try the good stuff.

Discovering that the task is daunting. Maybe some 308 varmint owners who handload their cartriges can share a few hints with me.

Main goal is learn and master the art of long range shooting agaisnt "evil" paper targets, for now. Eventually, will varmit hunt, but not in a hurry.

* I am narrowing down my choices to 165 thru 180gr. Don't think that 185gr or more will do too good in a 308 case and a 1 in 11 twist rate. Correct me if I am wrong.

* Plan to place orders (more like backorders) for RL-15 and Varget. Should I go 1lb or 5lb/8lb? I estimate I can hand load approx 160-200 carthridges per 1lb of powder. Think i'd just run out of powder (1lb that is) by the time I fine tuned my recipies, only to start again wqith a new can of the same powder. How off am I?

* Other powders that worked fine with said bullets, cases, primers?

* In short, what are your favorite recipies?

I am new to handloading so many of these questions are probably the wrong ones. Be kind to the newbie. :)

[dakotasin]

for your intended purposes, the nosler partition is not a great choice. but, since you already bought them, you might as well shoot them up (unless you can trade for/towards a better option - namely the 168 hornady a-max, nosler ballistic tip, sierra match king, etc). note partitions are harder to get accuracy from than other bullets, designed as a tough hunting bullet, and expensive.

powder... start by getting a pound of rl-15 and varget, and find which one shoots better. if you want less experimentation and more shooting, just pick up a jug of either - i have not found a 308 yet that does not shoot those two powders extremely well. you will want 2 pounds of matching lot numbers at a minimum. you will easily find a good load within the first few shots, but it is nice to have a full pound in reserve (i buy 8# jugs of varget for my 308 varminter).

my favorite recipe for a 308 varminter is varget, 168 hornady a-max, and whatever primer - currently that is fed 210, and bullets seated to engage the rifling.

my favorite load for big game hunting w/ the 308 is rl-15, 165 hornady interlock, and whatever primer (again, it is currently fed 210's), and bullets seated for reliable feeding from the magazine.

good luck!

btw... i would really encourage you to get rid of the partitions if possible. excellent hunting bullet so if the shop won't take them back you should be able to trade/sell them to a 300 mag shooter... but as a varminter, paper puncher, long range rifle, etc, partitions come up pretty short.

[civilian75]

You hand load for a "Tikka" 308 Varminter? I'd like to confirm.:o

I actually got Ballistic Tip, not Partitions. Was late last night :o.

I already have 1# of RL15 and no chance to get matching lot :(. Guess should buy 8# Varget and get it over with. There is 'nothing' on the shelves around here. Must order everything online. Can't trust getting two jugs of same lot even if I explicitly request it.

I can't find load data at Hornady's web site. I dunno where to start loading, with either RL-15 or Varget. Got manual #14 covering Speer, and the Ballistics Room covering Nosler.

Patience with the newbie :o Thanks a bunch.

[dakotasin]

You hand load for a "Tikka" 308 Varminter? I'd like to confirm

yep... and a 700 vls, and a pre-64 70, and a savage 110, and a 700 adl, and a 700 bdl... probably have another one or two i forgot about. i like the 308, and i like rifles... oh, and a custom 98. they're 308 bolts. load one, load for 'em all. there are minor differences between each individual rifle (ie the 700 vls requires very long seating to reach lands while the short-throated mauser can get factory loads engaged in the rifling)...

i don't get too worked up over matching lots. of course it is preferable, but it rarely happens for me anymore, either. if you've already got rl-15, you are in good shape to start your work-ups. i wouldn't sweat the varget - start w/ what you have and away you go.

load data... you have the speer and nosler manuals... look at the data presented in both, start w/ the more conservative of the two, and start loading in .5 grain increments until you run into pressure signs or get uncomfortable w/ the powder charges you are throwing. relax, take your time, and we'll see ya when you get back looking for ideas on how to tweak the load or answer questions on when to change a component.

good luck!

[Bear2000]

I handload for my Tikka 308 SS Varmint - this gun can shoot. I like a 168 Sierra Matchking over 44.5 gr of Varget at 2.812". I also shot some nice groups with a SMK 180 gr over 44 gr of Varget. And a couple of weeks ago I was putting 5 rounds of 155 gr Sierra Palmas into 2" groups at 300 yards. These were smoking hot at 47 grs - I imagine I was pushing 3000 fps. I love this gun.

I just bought 300 190 SMKs, so I hope the 1:11 twist will handle them. I think it will just fine - the kind of upper end. It really liked the 180s...

So, Varget is my go-to powder for this gun.

[Bear2000]

I have a Tikka 308 Stainless Varmint - awesome gun, great trigger. A real sub-moa gun (1/2).

I like the following

168 SMK over 44-45 gr Varget
180 SMK over 44 gr Varget
155 SMK Palma over 47 gr Varget (smokin' - 2" group at 300 yards)

I am going to try 190s next at 300 yards. I have no doubt the 1:11 twist will handle them just fine.

[civilian75]

I am an engineer and thrive in data analysis, so I also acquired a chronny. Used for the first time last weekend, just to get acquainted with it (heard they can be temperamental). :)

If any of you also time your loads, I'd like to have an idea what is an acceptable spread and standard deviations. I like this approach because, provides me another data point set, and as a newbie, my trigger technique learning curve is a bit low.

This is the data I compiled last weekend with surplus ammo:

FN 147gr ball
n=12, hi=2758, lo=2650, ave=2716, spread= 104, stdev=27

DAK 147gr ball
n=16, hi=2677, lo=2559, ave=2621, spread=118, stdev=39

FN ball gave me ~1" groups, but when switched to DAK, groups widened up considerably (~4"). Not sure why, maybe dirty chamber/barrel, sloppy trigger pull 'cause shoulder was hurting, or I had let the barrel get too hot (had fired about 40rd before starting data collection). Again, a newbie, I dunno how to pace the shooting to keep the barrel cool, I guess. Before the Tikka, all I've shot have been mil surplus rifles and ammo and was never too concerned about groupings. I know this is kind of off topic but it all leads to handloading. If I can't shoot right, handloading data I collect at the range is worthless, right? The chronny is an impartial arbiter. DAK stats are definitely worst than FN but I have no basis to tell how bad it is and relevancy to grouping going south. Broke in barrel with DAK ball with excellent (sub-MOA) grouping by the end. But surplus being surplus…

Bottom line, what is considered a good spread & stdev vs. a mediocre spread & stdev? What to expect from handloaded ammo?

[dakotasin]

i strive for single digit sd's, but don't always get them. if i can keep the sd below 15 or so, i'll be happy w/ that in target applications.

case prep is a big part of controlling your sd's. trim length, neck tension, and case weight (volume) are the easier to control factors. the rifle itself or your bench technique can also have an effect (chamber/barrel condition).

for example, if you are shooting a 5-shot group and waiting 60 seconds in between shots, you would think that would be good enough. however, i submit if you fire, eject, reload, and then wait 60 seconds you will notice a difference if you had fired, ejected, left the bolt open, wait 60 seconds, then reload and fire.

i like my chrony quite a bit and use it religiously when i'm developing a load. however, don't let the data gathering get too technical right now.

trim your brass to length, chamfer, deburr, clean the primer pocket. size the cases all the same (preferably neck size only until the case won't chamber easily, then full length) - your sizing operation is where you start getting into neck tension. at your stage, don't get hung up on this part yet, but to control neck tension it is easiest to use a redding bushing die, and alter the sizer dimensions a little bit to look for that sweet spot. in a factory rifle, this step can get tedious and produce negligible results - skip it for now. same for neck turning. in a factory rifle, this step is absolutely an exercise in wasted time.

anyway, don't get too hung up on the chrony data. your single biggest improvement in group sizes will come from you and your technique. use sandbags, work on your breathing.

using quality ammo and a good technique, you should be able to get group sizes pretty tight at 100 yards without having to get into neck alterations, etc.

good luck!

[1858rem]

I estimate I can hand load approx 160-200 carthridges per 1lb of powder.

it may be less than you expect....maxor near max loads? i get about 160 or less using RL-15 and 165g bullets, and about 165 or less using the 168 bthp's

[civilian75]

Handloaded 50 168gr SMK, using Speer manual #14 data on new Winchester brass, RL15 and CCI LR BR2. Hottest load is 44.8gr. Will test this coming Saturday. Let's see.

Due to magazine restrictions, limited COAL to 2.825". Bolt chambers smoothly.

[1858rem]

Will test this coming Saturday. Let's see.


gonna be a long wait

[Zak Smith]

The best bullet for long-range target use in the .308 right now is the Lapua 155 gr Scenar. Most people use Varget, with a minority using RL15.

See http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/?p=2
for discussion why.

[civilian75]

1858rem said:
gonna be a long wait
It is. Can't wait


Zak Smith said:
The best bullet for long-range target use in the .308 right now is the Lapua 155 gr Scenar.

Never heard of it before. A quick Google showed BCs over .50 (mostly)! Amazing! Thanks for the tip. What's the sweet spot for the muzzle velocity? What's your take about moly vs. non-moly coated on same bullets?


Zak Smith said:
Most people use Varget, with a minority using RL15.

Using RL15 'cause I was lucky enough to find a jug at the last gun show. All shelves in the area are empty of both RL15 and Varget. I am waiting one more week or else will order online and take the hazmat fee hit.

[Zak Smith]

The 155 Scenar was passed over by U.S. shooters for a long time because the "conventional wisdom" was that you needed heavy bullets to shoot long range. This imprecise: you need high BC. The easiest, but not only, way to increase BC is with more mass.

The Scenar's design gives a pretty high BC value (0.508) compared to other .308 choices, but its low mass means it can be driven faster. The 155 Scenar is actually longer in length than the 175 SMK, and its BC matches the 175's BC.

Most people who handload the 175 SMK in .308 end up with a velocity around 2700 fps (often using Varget). The 155 Scenar can be shot 2875 - 2950 in most guns. The factory Lapua ammunition shot about 2830 fps from my AWP. My reloads are about 2900.

Here is a comparison of the 155 Lapua to some other 308 loads

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 | YARDS
190 SMK 0.53* 2500 > 0.00 3.70 15.85 38.45 73.68 | wind (inches)
175 SMK 0.51* 2700 > 0.00 3.58 15.36 37.25 71.80 | wind (inches)
170 Lock Base 0.525 2760 > 0.00 3.26 13.94 33.62 64.35 | wind (inches)
155 Scenar 0.508 2950 > 0.00 3.07 13.13 31.70 60.73 | wind (inches)
190 BER 0.574 2550 > 0.00 3.32 14.14 33.95 64.55 | wind (inches)
168 SMK F 0.46* 2650 > 0.00 4.04 17.69 44.07 86.77 | wind (inches)
210 VLD 0.640 2400 > 0.00 3.23 13.66 32.61 61.54 | wind (inches)
220 SMK 0.63* 2200 > 0.00 3.73 15.87 38.07 71.85 | wind (inches)
240 SMK 0.71* 2100 > 0.00 3.54 14.97 35.69 66.78 | wind (inches)

190 SMK 0.53* 2500 > -0.00 3.52 11.96 22.59 35.85 | drop (moa)
175 SMK 0.51* 2700 > -0.00 2.90 10.18 19.46 31.17 | drop (moa)
170 Lock Base 0.525 2760 > -0.00 2.70 9.51 18.08 28.71 | drop (moa)
155 Scenar 0.508 2950 > -0.00 2.24 8.17 15.68 25.03 | drop (moa)
190 BER 0.574 2550 > -0.00 3.30 11.21 20.98 32.93 | drop (moa)
168 SMK F 0.46* 2650 > -0.00 3.10 10.94 21.28 34.92 | drop (moa)
210 VLD 0.640 2400 > -0.00 3.81 12.58 23.21 35.95 | drop (moa)
220 SMK 0.63* 2200 > -0.00 4.76 15.41 28.41 44.15 | drop (moa)
240 SMK 0.71* 2100 > -0.00 5.25 16.70 30.41 46.66 | drop (moa)


In a long-range load, you want the least wind drift provided the drop is reasonable, or not excessive (because ranging and MV error/deviation will cause vertical misses).

[Zak Smith]

On the moly-- I avoid it because you need to clean it out. I have some friends who use it. They find that it does extend their cleaning intervals. However, my experience is that a premium barrel's accuracy will not degrade noticeably (for anything other than benchrest competition) even over hundreds or thousands of rounds. My .308 has several thousand without a thorough bore cleaning and it shoots half MOA or better.

[civilian75]

Zac, I assume you've fired the Scenars on a t-3 varmint. Can you confirm? I am sorry for the obvious question but better safe...

The table you provided, that is not inches but the MOA you dial up on your scope, rigth? (patience witht he newbie, please)

The t-3 has a 1 in 11 twist rate (confirmed with the cleaning rod and swab test) . The Lapua 155 gr Scenar are recommended for 1 in 10. I am still inexperienced about twist rates and its effects on long range accuracy. In my mind it means the 1 in11 will not provide the 155 with the angular velocity it needs to perform as it was designed for. What is your take?:confused: The 167gr has a lower BC (.470) but is recommended for 1:12 rate. the t-3 is in between. What is your take?

This freaking bullet sounds too good to be true:)

P.S. Any ballistics s/w any of you can recommend for an old (monochrome) Palm Pilot?

[Zak Smith]

I haven't, but it shouldn't matter. The Scenar seems to work in most barrels. I have only seen two rifles that didn't "like" it: an LTR and an AR-10 (AR-10's are finicky anyway).

The general strategy for choosing a long-range target bullet is to pick 2 or 3 top contenders (ie, excellent BC and a reputation for long-range accuracy). Work up a load in your rifle, copying a "known good" recipe, and see if it shoots accurately enough for your purposes. If it doesn't, try #2, and then try #3. In .308, I would rate these: (1) 155 Scenar, (2) 175 SMK. If the 175 SMK doesn't shoot well from your bolt gun - and you have ruled out other causes - you might as well stop trying and buy a new barrel. Generally, in high-end match barrels, you can use whatever bullet you want and make it shoot well.

The table was divided into two sections: wind drift (in inches) and drop (in MOA). Yes, the MOA corrections are what you would dial if you have a scope with a MOA-based clicks. In selecting LR loads, I sort by wind drift first, and then make sure the candidates have "reasonable" drop values. Given two loads with the same drop, pick the one with less wind drift. Given two loads with the same wind drift, pick the one with less drop.

The 155 definitely works with 1:11 - 1:12 twists. It should work from 1:10 to 1:13, but I have less data in that range. I have shot thousands of them from my 24" 1:12, and my shooting partner uses a 1:11.

For the Palm, try getting Exbal. For free software, just use the JBM calculator online. I print out cards for the environmental conditions I am likely to encounter and pick the right one as I head out for the day.

[civilian75]

Zac,

I should not proceed w/o first thank you for all this great, great info!!

Luckily, my rifle/barrel exceed my ability to shoots well. When I am relaxed and focused, I can get 1 to 0.75 MOA 3 shot groups with 147 ball surplus, plus a few fliers. :) My 16yr old boy shot a <.5 MOA 3 shot group with the same. Kicks my but every time we go to the range.

In 2-3 weeks I should be able to load a few 155gr Scenars and test them at the range. Can you help me with the "Work up a load in your rifle, copying a "known good" recipe" part?

Matl's: Varget powder, Lapua cases, CCI LR BR2 primers, and of course , the 155gr Scenars. Need the start and max loads. Manual #14 does not have a recipe for a Speer 155gr. It provides one for 150gr, (45 thru 47gr).

Patience with the newbie :)

[Zak Smith]

I use the 210M primers, but the BR2's should be fine.

You need to be aware that using load data for different bullets of the same weight doesn't always work. For example, the Lapua 155 is much longe than the Speer or Sierra 155 (or the Sierra 175 for that matter). When seated to the same COAL, the longer bullet will use up more powder capacity and pressure would be increased vs. the shorter bullet's data.

Anyway. With Varget, you should be able to start at 44.0 grains and work up from there. My load is over 46.0gr and somewhat compressed, but it is not a max load. I don't think you can seriously overcharge a round with this load combination-- you can't fit enough powder in there.

For COAL, 2.800" should be safe (factory), and you may be able to increase length depending on your chamber setup.

The velocity range should be 2800-2950. I would be satisfied with anything over 2850 that shot 1/2 MOA. My load is going about 2900 fps.

[civilian75]

Thanks a bunch again! Excellent pointers.

The magazine will limit COAL to about 2.825". I may be able to push it a bit more. The chamber will take about 2.867" but I really have not explored neither envelop enough as to provide a definte answer. This gives me something else to do while I wait to see how my SMK loads do.

On a slightly different subject, while loading the SMK I erroneously assumed new, never-used (Winchester) cases needed no inspection or trimming. I found to my amazement some of the cases' mouths where not round, none had chamffering and most needed deburring. :cuss: The reloading manual and no one I had talked to had ever mentioned or forewarned me about this. My eyesight is not what it used to be and several rounds where pressed w/o any case preping. I stopped after I noticed copper flakes shaved off the jacket accumulating around the rim. :fire: Any insights? I do not see myself re-sizing 100% new cases to ensure perfectly round mouths 100% of the time. There has to be an optimum way to deal with new cases. Although, perhaps, this is the only foolproof way.:uhoh:

[Zak Smith]

I have loaded into non-round mouths and it's been fine. I am not huge into case prep, but I also usually use Lapua brass (which is not 100% "perfect" from the box either). But if you think about it, it's not much extra effort to make sure things are "right."

-z

[Tack4595]

Hi,
I am in exactly the same boat at present developing loads for my Tikka T3 Varmint.
The "classic" loads all appear to work well but trying to outshoot this rifle is hard partly because of its inherant quality and partly because they seem to shoot most loads well. Minor changes in powder and case manufacturer make less difference to the .308 target load than most others because of its high level of efficiency.
I have found that Lapua brass is more consistant than any other brand tried. These include Winchester, Hornady and Federal. The more consistant the brass the smaller the velocity spread and therefore the more consistant the grouping, all other things being equal.
I have yet to try the Scenar but after the previous comments regarding them I think I will run up a batch of cartridges using the heavier 185 grain bullets just to see what happens. I will be using Varget and BR2 primers.
Regards
Tack

[civilian75]

I have saved hundred of dollars and cut down months off my learning curve thanks to you guys! :)

Can't wait to get my 200 Lapua cases & Scenars. MidwayUSA had Varget on stock today so I placed an order for an 8# jug.

By the way, I did not trust the power dispender and manually measured all my RL15 loads. Was a lot of work but I felt it was worth it.

I've decided I'll only trust the dispenser for handgun loads if I ever go that route.

[Zak Smith]

I use an RCBS Chargemaster.

[civilian75]

A Chargemaster? Nice!

WTS: RCBS Uniflow. Make an offer.:)

Tried to determine the t-3 chamber max COAL for those days that I feel like firing single loads. But inexperience had the best of me. It seems somewhere between 2.975" and 3.0"!! Ran out of time and quit. Looks awfully long and unsafe to load.

The magazine max COAL is definetly 2.83".

[Zak Smith]

I don't bother chasing the lands with the 155's. When the barrel was new, I couldn't seat further than 2.85". To get them to touch now, I'd have to be well beyond 3.0". Still shoots great.

[civilian75]

I forgot to mention I was chasing lands with 147gr ball. I realized yesterday this is very much a function of the bullet geometry as is the chamber's. Haven't tried but I guess I will have very different results with my 180's BTips.

[civilian75]

Range Report

I hand loaded 50rds of 168gr SMK and fired 35 of the 50 with my Tikka t3 308 varmint rifle at the 100yd range last Saturday. Loaded five 10 rounds groups with Reloder 15, with the following charges: 42.0, 43.0, 44.0, 44.5 and 44.8gr. I chrono-ed all but one of the shots and recorded both velocities and point of impact.

At this point you can either continue reading (no pic) or read the complete report with pictures click here (http://mysite.verizon.net/lvargasmoll/report/range_report.htm).

Positive side:
* Shot my first hand loaded ammo. Felt awesome!
* 100% primers fired (no high primers).
* Even at my worst, none of the shots landed more than 3” off the point of aim.
* No evidence of overpressure. Highest loads increased case OD to just over the spec (.4703”). You can hardly notice it visually.
* Best group (a five shot group) was one MOA. If you take two “fliers” out of a 10 shot group (bringing it down to a 8 shot group), it becomes a slightly sub MOA group.
* This is the first time I leave the range w/o shoulder pain and it feels awesome, not just for my shoulder’s sake but my ego. Weaker loads, or, better technique? I think the latter. Seems like I am getting better. First three visits, not even a limb saver would spare me from the humiliation.

Negative side:
* All muzzle velocities for all loads were ~ 100 fps below expectations
* All standard deviations were over 20 fps. The best two were 22 and 24 fps.
* IMO, load, rifle and shooter combination have not yet achieved “tack driving” status.


Observations:
* I noticed that while firing the weaker loads, recoil and muzzle rise where barely noticeable. Obvious to the learned, but a surprise the The Newbie.
* Point of impact vertical locations appear to correlate to muzzle velocities. "Thank you Cp't Obvious" said my teenaged son.
* Case expansion appear to correlate to muzzle velocities
* Variability seems to reduce as the loads increase; standard deviations stay about the same or drop a little as muzzle velocities increase. But I categorically cannot confirm this because of errors in the data collection. (inconsistent sample sizes). Highest stdev: 31(five shot sample size) , lowest stdev: 20 (ten shot sample size).
* It seems like for the given powder (RL15) and case size, I can’t overload, thus, create excessive pressures. I can possible even push it compresses loads w/o risk to life and limb.

Data analysis and comments:
For a newbie marksman and hand loader, maybe these are great results. But I had higher expectations.
* I was particularly disappointed by the lower speeds attained. As per Speer’s manual #14 and Nossler website loading data, I was expecting velocities either exceeding 2700 fps or pretty darn near. Temp was 47F and pressure at 30.20” Hg. Both higher than standard temp & press. But that should not make a difference in muzzle velocities!
* I was also disappointed by the high standard deviations. I carefully measured every single load to ensure an error of under 0.1gr. One thing I did not do and now in hindsight I regret, was to measure and record the weight of the bullets. A weak lot of RL15 powder also crossed my mind.
* I also regret not firing all 10 loads on groups 1 thru 3 (50 total). The plan was to fire two 5rd of groups of each load, 5 by me and five by my son, who is a better shot than me. Unfortunately, he made other plans and could not come along. At the range, poor performance of the first three loads brought the cheapster out of me who though “I ‘d better re-do them puny loads”.
* I cannot fully explain why there was so much variation in the horizontal axis with no other than blaming the shooter. I had a 6-9” bi-pod attached to the fore end and I stabilized the butt stock with a sand bag. If I ignore the 2nd 5-shot group of 44.5gr loads, I’d say there is small correlation between muzzle velocity increase and a reduction of horizontal spread. But w/o conducting any correlation analysis, it is only speculation. Thru the whole shooting session I had to put with wind varying both in magnitude and direction. That can’t be blamed for more than maybe 0.5” of the error, though.:-/

Next steps
* Unless someone tells me I am crazy, I am going to try more loads, i.e. 45.0gr, 45.2gr and maybe even 45.3, if I can compress them into the case.
* I will not try to put ten rounds in the same target again. It was a very poor move for data collection. Will do three shot groups from now on. I kept track of round locations and order of firing on little notebook. It is very easy to do with three shots. But as the number of impacts to record increases, it becomes exponentially harder to keep it all straight.
* I can’t wait to get my 8# Varget jug. There has to be a reason why it seems to be the preferred .308 cal powder. The same goes with my order of 200 Lapua cases and 155gr Scenars.
* I hate losing the sight picture and tend to apply a death grip to the fore end and pull down very hard to prevent the muzzle rise. I also noticed accuracy suffers considerably when I do that. I have taken steps to install a compensator. (Fingers crossed it is not a waste of money).
* Should I toss the bipod and go with sandbags? Or, should I buy a shooting stand. I have resisted that move because it takes away most of the fun. But maybe this is what I need to do when I am developing a load. The shooter needs to improve, and that takes practice, which is the main reason why I resist the shooting stand. I have limited resources and time and hate to leave it to the stand to do my shooting. Isn’t the bi-pod and sandbag bad enough already?

Conclusion:
I really, really want to bring the muzzle velocity standard deviation to single digits or at least to the low teens. I feel that If I don’t, long distance shooting (300yds and up) will be an artillery exercise. I hope this plan puts me in the right track. I have yet to learn to relax consistently and maintain a firm (not a death) grip of my firearm. Takes practice. That should hopefully take care of the horizontal axis variation.

[Zak Smith]

First off, if the rifle is brand new and has not been fired, it is common for it to take up to a couple dozen rounds for the barrel to settle in. Some people believe in shoot/clean break-in cycles. Regardless, it is not uncommon for velocity to settle down as you fire tens of rounds.

Measuring the body of the case won't tell you much, IMO. There is a method for determining overpressure that involves case head expansion (and you want less than one thou). However, if the primers look OK and you don't see any marks on the case head and the velocities are within a reasonable range, you're probably OK.

Don't worry too much about the velocities being below "expectations" unless those expectations are from a system substantially similar to your own.

Likewise, before you get disappointed by the accuracy of the load, make sure that you are capable of shooting the group sizes you seek from the rifle. Don't take any of this personally- they are just variables to account for. I have days when I shoot like crap and it's nothing more than a waste of ammo.

Do not shoot off a Harris bipod. It's terrible for accuracy especially when on a hard surface. For load testing, use sandbags front and rear. The goal of load testing is to eliminate variables and test the load only.

With regard to both accuracy and velocity SD, loads often do not perform well unless in the right pressure/burn rate range. With your fastest load only about 2600 there is a very good chance you are below this range. I have not used RL15 so I am not sure how close you are to max with that powder, but from a 22-26" barrel you should be able to get the 168's going 2700-2850 fps. I know it can be done with Varget (my favorite 308 powder). My shooting partner uses RL15 with the 155's with success, though.

Having SD's of 20 isn't the end of the world, but it's nice to have them in the single digits.

Some powder compression is not bad. People shooting the lighter bullets in .308 seem to have this issue, and I don't know of anyone having problems. My 155 load is somewhat compressed (expressed as a slight "crunch" when I seat the bullets). I know someone who uses another full grain over my load and his are much more compressed.

Hope this helps

[robsc]

Get the 8 lb. powder size of whatever you decide on. Stock up for the next 4-10 years because all components are going to be hard to find and expensive.
H380, W748, IMR3031, Varget, all give superb results in the .308win.

[civilian75]

Zac,

First off, if the rifle is brand new and has not been fired, You said a couple of dozens. The rifle has barely been shot with. I shot 171 with surplus ball before the last session at the range. That's slightly more than a couple fo dozen. But I get your point. I gotta be patient. Tikka ships when the rifle is under MOA and it meets. Thank's for the tip.

a method for determining overpressure that involves case head expansion (and you want less than one thou) over my head (no pun intended. Bulging around the primer seating? Recesed rim indentation disappearing? A pic = 1k words.

make sure that you are capable of shooting the group sizes you seek from the rifle. Don't take any of this personally- No offense taken.
Signed,
The Newbie.

Do not shoot off a Harris bipod. It's terrible for accuracy especially when on a hard surface. So much I had guessed (suspected). I am shooting indeed over a hard (cement) surface. Maybe if I put the bag under the bi-pod? The bi-pod just looks sooo tacticool! :barf:... just kidding... Guess it is ok in the field over dirt or when you can't do better, but better left home when going to the range. Thanks for the tip.

My 155 load is somewhat compressed (expressed as a slight "crunch" when I seat the bullets A crunch? Nice tip!

have not used RL15 so I am not sure how close you are to max with that powder How can I tell? Is it by the "crunch"?

No direct comments about trying hotter loads. But, from your comments I gather it is not a bad idea to proceed cautiously with hotter loads.

Thanks a bunch once again for all the useful info.

[Zak Smith]

I didn't remember what you had said about the rifle's history, so I just gave the general advice.

On the case head expansion thing, I didn't go into it on purpose. You can search and find descriptions of this method, however, it's not really needed. I just meant that the method of measuring body diameter doesn't really tell anything useful. This is what you should look for:
However, if the primers look OK and you don't see any marks on the case head and the velocities are within a reasonable range, you're probably OK.

How can I tell? Is it by the "crunch"?

No, crunch tells you nothing about how close you are to max pressure. It is simply the sound stick-type powders make when you seat the bullet into the powder column, if you have a compressed load.

If you do not know what pressure indicators to look for at this point, stop. As you develop more loads, you will begin to learn the clues of low loads, appropriate loads, slightly hot loads, and overpressure loads. Suffice to say, for now, follow the best load data you can find, and be on the lookout for any indicators you've read about. The most common things you'll see first are marks on the case head, extrusion and smearing of the ejector recess, primer edges that look smeared flat, or primer indents that look like volcanos ("cupped").

One should by all means be careful when working up a load. However, this doesn't mean you can't make any progress. If the fire cases and primers look fine, and you are below book or [professionally-] published data, and the velocity is not where it should be, then you can usually proceed.

[1858rem]

Do not shoot off a Harris bipod. It's terrible for accuracy especially when on a hard surface.

is that^^^ anything like the 40 dollar bipod at walmart?



interesting group at 44.5, same place is where my sweet spot seemed to be and avg 2573fps but my SD and ES are way worse than yours but my chrono skills suck have shot it three times(guide wires lol) and get a lot of err2 and err1 lol



forgot to add im using RL-15 also

[Detritus]

is that^^^ anything like the 40 dollar bipod at walmart?


The wal-mart bipod is made to look like the Harris to a large extent, but in my own oppinion and the oppinion of many others i've spoken to over the years, is no where near the same quality (and the Harris is only about $20-30 more).

for awhile now Harris has been the "known name" in bipods, there are much better and much worse designs out there. but "harris" adn Versa-pod are the names everyone seems to know.

i thnk the main intent of Zak's comment was that load workup and evaluation should not be done over ANY bipod, but instead over as stable and steady a rest as possible. otherwise you're adding additional variables and not getting a true test of the load.

as to what bipod those of us who want or need to use one (F-T/R shooters come to mind) should be looking into, i certainly have no clue anymore. and would love to hear suggestions myself, but this isn't my thread.:)

[Zak Smith]

i thnk the main intent of Zak's comment was that load workup and evaluation should not be done over ANY bipod, but instead over as stable and steady a rest as possible. otherwise you're adding additional variables and not getting a true test of the load.

Exactly. It's hard to get more stable than 30 lbs of sandbags.

[civilian75]

interesting group at 44.5, same place is where my sweet spot seemed to be and avg 2573fps

what leads me to believe that 168 SMK and RL51 is an underperforming combination. One thing I am hating about Sierra is that I can't find the loading tables in their web site (guess I have to "buy" :fire: the data).

After giving it some thought, I am going to save the little RL15 I have left for a winning/proven recipe.

[Zak Smith]

According to QuickLoad, max for a 168 SMK with RL15 should be around 46.0 grains, at 2830 fps from a 26" bbl. This does not account for brass internal volume differences, bore "tightness", chamber differences, etc. For Varget, it was 44.8 gr and 2785 fps. Note that these are computed values ONLY.

If you're down in the 2500's, there's a good chance you're just not getting efficient burn (like, Pmax under 45 kpsi).

[civilian75]

Been working under the assumption of a 45.0gr max, as per Manual #14. :(

The t3 is a 23.75" long barrel. I hope that does not change the 46.0gr theoretical max load?

I installed the Quickload Demo. GUI has not been updated in over 10 years it seems. Since you already have obviously mastered it and might have little motivation to upgrade, you may not acquire a more updated internal/external ballsitic s/w. For a newbie like me, what else is out there that might be the best choice and good value, IYO?

[Zak Smith]

Well, this is not necessarily contradicting #14-- it's another data point. Your rifle and components may act differently than the manual, and differently than QuickLoad. This is why we start low and do a work up.

Barrel length does not change the max load.

I don't know of any other internal ballistics modeling program besides QuickLoad. It is well worth its price, however.

[JDGray]

One thing I am hating about Sierra is that I can't find the loading tables in their web site (guess I have to "buy" the data).

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/Sierra308Win.pdf

[civilian75]

JD, thanks for the data. Now my results are even more disconcerting, for I should have more than reached the publsihed speeds with the loads I tried.

Playing aorund with the Quikload Demo I realized I may have messed my numbers by using a 2.825" COAL instead of a 2.800". :o

Zac, if you read this, would you mind plugging 2.825" to Quickload? How much lower the pressures are? Could that account for a siginficant chunck of the 200-300 fps reduction?

[Zak Smith]

Assuming you're already off the lands, 0.025 won't make much difference- hardly any. QL predicts a 11 fps difference.

[civilian75]

Here is my second range report. I think I found the sweet spot. It is 45.0gr, which provides a mean 2600-ish fps muzzle velocity, and a std dev of 13.7. Also, obtained inconclusive data that might indicate that a variation of 0.3gr in bullet weight may cause a change of 14 fps in average muzzle velocity. The highest load used, 45.8gr, did not reach 2700 fps. Actual average was 2663 fps. Cases and primers did not show signs of over pressure.

Complete report with picture here (http://mysite.verizon.net/tikkaman/range_report_2.htm)

[Zak Smith]

That's still well below where you can be with 168's. Heck, the most common handload using the 175 SMK is 2700 fps (using Varget).

[civilian75]

Which has me totally baffled. How tight can a barrel be? How off can a powder be? How can Speer and Sierra load data be so different to what I am getting? Is my little legacy scale out of wack? Or, is it my weighting technique? How bad my bullet sitting, case prepping can be? Or, are the CCI LR BR2 to blame? I suspected my chronny but other fireamrs clock within reason (I wish I could borrow a chronny to validate mine).

Other than my handloands, I've fired 147gr FN and DAG ball. Both clocked pretty low IMHO:
FN: ave: 2650, n: 12, stdev: 27
DAG: ave: 2569, n: 17, stdev: 39

If the barrel is tight, in my mind, trying higher loads is asking for trouble, the serious kind. :confused: I've been so afraid to blow my head off that I've pretty much fired the hole 100 rd box very cautiously working up the loads until i read one that will scream "stop". That is a very expensive and dangerous way to develop a new load. I am seriously having 2nd thoughs about hand loading after this :(

My last ditch plan was to go to the 200/300 range and meaure actual bullet drop. Will have to wait a couple of weeks 'cause it is booked till the end of the month. :(

[Zak Smith]

As you allude to, it's a complex system. There's nothing wrong with having an accurate but a-little-bit-slow load, except when you start to reach out to long range.

I would focus on:

* double-checking your chrono (compare it against another hrono, or a known load in another rifle)

* make sure your scale checks out (use check weights or check against a known good scale)

* it's probably NOT any of your components, case prep, seating depth, etc

It is possible your barrel is just "slow," but it would surprise me if it was 200 fps slow.

Also, it is very good to be cautious in load development; you're doing that exactly right. However, note that you've never seen any pressure indicators at all, and all the photos I've seen of your brass have been perfect. If "X" grains of powder is "MAX", X + 0.1gr isn't going to blow up your gun. You might start to see slight ejector mark, or your primer corners may be a little less rounded, you might see some cupping on the firing pin indent, etc.

Here is a photo from a .338LM work up.
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/338/smaller/A100_1699_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/338/?small=A100_1699_img.jpg)
............... Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/338/?small=A100_1699_img.jpg)

You can see minor cupping on the firing pin indents. You can see the radius on the corners of the primers is sharper/smaller than it is on the unfired primers. You can see slight ejector marks.

By all means be cautious and careful. At this point, you have some data that doesn't "add up" and there are quite a few variables you can eliminate before trying to increase the load.

[civilian75]

Zac, I don't what I'd do w/o your advice! Like ur Demigod site. Would love to see more on the 7.62x39 subsonic. Back to topic…

Question: ejector marks, are they the brigth scratched arcs over the lettering? This is a great picture!

I am taking a couple of weeks to think things thru. I feel it is necessary I validate the scale, the chrono and even the rifle. Firing known good, reliable, reputable ammo is not a hard one. Borrowing a chrono is a toss up. The scale seemed to work fine with 168gr bullets, but, then again, that is almost 4x the powder weight range.

EABCO promised to ship my Lapua cases & scenars today. I definitely want to clear this up before I start working up a new load and handload a couple hundred fresh 168 SMK. And I definitely had no intentions of going hotter either.

[X-Rap]

I'm just a rookie but have taken some advise given here and started with a smaller caliber. My 308 is shooting real well at 300 with 46.2 gr. of blc-2 under a 168gr. BTHP match Hornady. Getting 2 -3 cutting the same hole with 5 shot groups at the longest distance I can get at my range.

[1858rem]

very nice, id like my gun to do that at 100 yds, but have not even shot it latley cuz i dont want to start flinching again, least till i find a consistent-er .5" or less load for my .204........ .1" c-2-c aint hard to get, but thats only for 3/5 shots ,im lookin for ten into .5" in 10 min before i go back to the 308

[Zak Smith]

Ejector smear (go to the big version here for more detail
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/?medium=A100_1533_img.jpg
)

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/medium/A100_1533_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/?large=A100_1533_img.jpg)
............... Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/?large=A100_1533_img.jpg)

Left to right
#1 on "22" of "223"
#3 on "E" of WinchEster
#4 on C of Winchester

[~z]

Quick question, Zak, when you say "Barrel length does not change the max load." is that within a certain parameter? I ask as I have been developing a load for a 33” 300WM. As I have no published data for this length I have been working up slowly and watching for pressure signs. Found an accurate load for 168SMK @ 3260fps with no pressure signs and well below max by book values (71.7 gn RL 22). I stalled there for a while but am in the process of working up again with 175 SMKs and RL 25. My method is to conduct a ladder test and thoroughly inspect cases for pressure signs. Curious about your input on barrel length vs max load.
Thanks, I always respect your opinion,
~z

[~z]

bump

[Zak Smith]

There is no need to bump threads like this one. Interested parties are probably subscribed.

In rifle cartridges, the maximum pressure occurs while the bullet is within the first five inches of barrel, and has usually dropped to approx half that pressure by 10 inches.

So in your case, the barrel length should not change the max charge; however, the longer barrel will achieve higher velocity.

Shooting 175's in 33" 300WM, you should be able to get 3300+ fps from N560, RL25, RL22, or H1000, but as always, check for any pressure indicators along the way and do not exceed published load data.

[civilian75]

Visit my personal site to check my latest range report. In short, observed signs of high pressure for the first time. Older lots of RL15 seemed to perform similarly as the newer lots. Lapua 155gr Silver Scenars very promising.

http://mysite.verizon.net/tikkaman/range_report_3.htm

[Zak Smith]

None of those have "erased" primer edges. Erased is like you took a spatula and smeared frosting flat over the primer pocket. I can't tell from your pictures but I don't even see any marks on the case head. Were there any smear marks that are not apparent in the photos?

[civilian75]

Zak,
You are right. The primer edges did not erase completely. But, for the first time, I see primers shoulders starting to disappear. And, none of my brass had ejector marks, or smear marks on the heads. If this is not excesive presure then that is good news and I am relieved. But, just in case, this pic might be clrearer:
95339

I also included pics of disowned cases fired by a HK91. Primer pockets are cratered and the case has a lot of evidence of abuse. Pictures often do not do them justice, especially if you do not know what to look for, but you do. Now I have actual cases we can use to learn what overpressure really is.

I am liking the Scenars a lot, and I have fired only four. Thanks for pointing me in their direction. What is the seet spot in your system? Is it between 2800 and 2850? I don't want to waste material chasing a ghost at lower pressures.

[Zak Smith]

Is there a shiny mark on the bottom left case between the 8 and the W? It's hard for me to tell.

In any case, those case heads and primers look OK to me.

For the 155's, the Lapua factory loads were about 2830 fps from my 24". I load them at 2930 fps. Most people I know shoot them at 2900-2950 fps.

On the HK91 stuff, semi-autos in general can be hard on brass and the HK91 is much worse than average. Extreme primer cratering can cause primer piercing. You can also see the extrusion marks where the brass when into the extractor (the square lines) and ejector hole (round ones). However, with FC brass, this is not that surprising. It is notoriously soft.

[civilian75]

I don't think there is a mark. here is a pic of the same cases from a slightly different angle:
95342

I don't think I can go much higher than 2800 fps with RL15. At 47gr, the load is already pretty compressed for I am limited to a 2.840" COAL by the magazine. :( I can do 2830 fps, though. Where is the Varget?:banghead:

About the FC brass, I am not sure I still get it (feel so dense, patience with the newbie). See this pic and tell me if I got it right this time:95341

[Zak Smith]

On the top pic, I think I see a smear on the top left case head. It's hard to tell from photos.

On the FC bottom pic.. I am not familiar with an HK91 bolt face, so it's hard to tell.

[civilian75]

I looked closer to the pic and did not see a smear.

About the HK, maybe it was not such a great idea to discuss them. A bunch of things go on in an auto-loader that is not relevant to a bolt.

[civilian75]

Alas! Cabela's has just confirmed they shipped 1# of Varget! T'was about time!

[civilian75]

155gr Silver Scenars gave me the best ever, with single digit standard deviation and sub 0.5 MOA 3rd group:

Load: 47.2gr RL 15 (Jan-09)
Qty: 11
Ave: 2825
Hi: 2834, Lo: 2812
Range: 22
StDev: 7.2
And, if I remove the first shot (a cold barrel 2812 fps), then, StDev: 6.14

I am showing the last 6 shots. The first 5 were lost to scope adjustments.