[Skibane]

One of the hottest trends of the past decade has been the increase in households where no man is present. Plenty of single and divorced women now own their own homes, and even women who are married generally outlive their spouses by a decade or two.

This has got me to thinking that gun manufacturers may be overlooking a significant, growing potential market segment: Home defense weapons for women. Sadly, judging by all the single female homeowners I personally know, virtually all of the firearms currently on the market have significant deficiencies.

Before throwing this thread out for discussion, I'd like to include my own impressions:

1. While it's true that S&W and other companies offer the occasional "Ladies" model of handgun, I'm convinced that the best firearm for the woman who lives alone may actually be a rifle. A rifle generates much less recoil than a similar-caliber handgun (a common complaint among women), and provides greater accuracy (much better probability of hitting the target). Also, there's usually little reason to conceal a firearm around the house, so the advantage of a handgun's compactness is lost in this setting.

2. Shotguns may have their place in the home defense equation, but they are tremendously intimidating for many women to use. Their recoil and muzzle blast is simply too strong to warrant consideration by many women.

3. Simplicity is absolutely essential. None of the women I know would ever be comfortable with the mechanical intricacies of clambering or extracting a round from a semi-auto pistol or rifle. It may be second nature to us gun-guys, but it's pure Greek to 90 percent of the fairer sex.

Leverguns and bolt-actions are a little less intimidating, but still leave plenty of room for operator error. No, for the ultimate in pull-the-trigger-and-it-goes-bang-everytime simplicity, IMO, it has to be a revolver. No cocking or decocking, no magazines to load, no safeties to mess with – and you can actually see the rounds in the chamber!

4. The shortest legal barrel length is probably best for this application, since few shots will ever be required beyond several dozen yards. This also keeps the weight down.

5. Stainless steel is preferable to a blued finish, since regular maintenance probably isn't going to be a high priority with most owners.

6. Since children and other residents may be in the house, a good affixed flashlight is absolutely essential for target identification after nightfall. While the average Joe may be inclined to "open up just to scare 'em off", I can assure you that no woman will make this mistake!

So, does anybody know where I can pick up half a dozen stainless-steel .357 Magnum revolver rifles with 16" barrels and Sure-Fire tactical lights for the favorite women in my life?:D

[sm]

Yes there is an increase in single parent families, lots of women HOH. Mfg's are most often directed by bean counters, lawyers and Wall street, not what the consumer wants. Make a product in quanity,that won't get us sued and let the marketing hype find the consumer...might as well let them beta test it too.

IME, I let women regardless of age and experience handle various types and explain the pro/con and answer questions. I let them make the choice, if they don't like it, they won't practice, no practice...wasted time and money.

It depends on what the set up is , city, urban, remote, farm. What it the threat, a prison down the road, two legged, 4 legged...how big is the threat, rabid, drunk, high on PCP, meth...? We need someting for a 2 br apt, or a 2 story farmhouse with 100 acres out back and daddy is 500 yds across the other way?

I usually start with 22 rifles, marlin 60 is good for a mini 14, bolt for the .243, lever for a lever .357, 30-30.

I still believe in Shotguns for most. Used pumps in 1300 and 870, 20 and 12 bore, some are youth models. Again the lady shoots and with instruction of fit, we have an easy customer. I don't rule out 1100s, in 20 ga, full or youth. I set a few up with used Beretta 302 and 303...they shoot them, became comfortable,later went to a pump...but the trigger time and less recoil got them there first.

I never rule out single shots, my mom uses one (arthritis negates her revo skills), fits a price range, for elderly, college students, or the gal in midst of being stalked , DV..and needing something now while awaiting CCW and re-locating.

I let the gals choose. I do know one gal with a marlin 60 kept herself and daughter safe till daddy made it from his farmhouse. She forgot about wanting a mini 14, decided against a AR...she went bolt in .308...keeps the mod 60, the 1911 , and 870 close by too. :)
She started with a model 60...

[Black Snowman]

I'm thinking .410 or 28 gauge pump shotgun or break-open double barrel. Pumps are very simple to operate, break-opens even more so. 410 and 28 have mild recoil. My Mom won't hesitate to grab the single shot 12 gauge under her bed if she's home alone and hears a bump. One shot is likely more than she'll need with the big hole staring down an intruder. If she needs more she's in way over her head anyway.

From what I've seen (not in person) revolver rifles had a scary amount of flash around the cylinder as a general rule because of the extended backpressure of the long barrel. They fell out of favor for other designs for some good reasons. I don't even see any re-pros for the cowboy shoots.

[Kaylee]

I let the gals choose.

sounds like a good idea to me.
Some chicks are skittish of anything more menacing than a little .38, I've met others -- even "non-gunny" chicks smaller than Betty that wouldn't be happy with less than a .45 ACP or a big ol' 12 guage.

nothing ensures apathy and neglect like having your decisions made for you. Kinda like ol' Moscow I guess... :)

that's the choosing half of the argument. as for the "what can manufacturers do" half...
I'd be curious to see if Badger could adopt his free recoil (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42636) design into a very soft-shooting, semi 20 guage or big bore/low blast carbine or som'n scaled down to the small female/youth stature size.


-K

[pax]

Boy, I can't wait until Runt, Tamara, and Kaylee see this post.

pax

Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then. -- Katharine Hepburn

[Ian]

<heads for cover, while pondering the ultimate home defense gun for men...>

[sm]

Kaylee, pax, and other ladies.

I may get flamed, but in my limited experience ladies are more receptive to learning, listening, and practice. Those raised around guns have ideas learned from grandparents, parents, bros/sis/sibs. Even so they are receptive, and know what they like, and do better when family does not do the teaching. Newbies, have no qualms admitting/asking questions, "I'm afraid, does it kick. Is it safe?". And NO built in hormonal sterotypical thingy that knows more because of an article read or so and so LEO/SEAL uses it.

The gals will practice. I have learned much by having the pleasure to share what little I know with the ladies.

Besides I ain't gonna argue with the gal whom puts an orange dot on divorce papers at 100yds... and a tight group to boot...nope...earler she kept all rounds in the polaroid of ex at 10 yds with a BHP :D

I shut up watch and keep daughter company banging away with the marlin 60...out of ammo ... yes ma'am I'm a coming...:D

[Skibane]

re1973, no one would dispute the fact that each woman should make her own gun choice, but that doesn't address the lack of availability of good products for them to choose from.

The point of my original post was that there are no home-defense firearms currently on the market that truly take into account the unique concerns of the average woman. Esteemed female members of this board excepted, none of the women I know care about how a gun works, or how to make it work better. They don't care about double-taps or Weaver stances, but they have serious doubts about whether they will be able to use the gun when they really need it. We need guns that are made for these folks, rather than forcing them to choose the least offensive guns made for the rest of us.

[444]

If they don't care about any of this stuff, one has to wonder if they care about owning a gun or if is someone elses idea that they are going along with.

[Black Snowman]

I disagree Skibane. If they're not comfortable with a gun I think it's more important that they become comfortable and educate themselves. That's the right and responsability of every individual. If they don't they're not going to be able to protect themselves effectively and safely.

Don't expect equipment to make up for deficencies in skill. The important thing is to get them interested, to get them educated, and to help develop the skills they need to protect themselves. No piece of wonder-equipment can bypass this.

I can tell you why no one has filled this nitche. To the companies the liablilty of marketing a "safe" gun for untrained and uneducated home defense is HUGE. I think the truth is that the best weapons for a man defending his home are the same ones for a woman defending her home.

Considerations in both cases have to be made for physical build and strength, comfort level with the weapon, and everything else that we discuss on this board about home defense and weapon selection. I think you're doing woman a disservice by implying they need a "dumbed down" weapon for lack of a better term.

True, some woman may not ever become comfortable with what most would consider a good home defense weapon and there's a lot of men that wouldn't either. For them I recommend large and territorial dogs ;)

[T.Stahl]

If I'd think about an HD long gun for my mom or girlfriend, I'd think about the lines of a .30 M1 Carbine or .357Mag/.38Spl Winchester 94 Trapper or Ranger Compact.

[sm]

Skibane : in my original post I shared my reasons and thoughts: Mfg's are most often directed by bean counters, lawyers and Wall street, not what the consumer wants. Make a product in quanity,that won't get us sued and let the marketing hype find the consumer...might as well let them beta test it too.
Ok for so long now this is the way it is, regardless of gender, youth models- even a more slim selection. Shotguns are "figured" for a person 5' 10" and with a 31" sleeve. The military issues a Beretta sidearm that is difficult for many with small hands/short fingers to reach the trigger, and safety. Rifles the same way. I did not mention gender, granted many mfg's did nothing but consider buyers to be men, or boys...for so many years. I know many ladies whom have accepted this , as men have had to do. Hence the gunsmith "listening" and coming up with the mods to fit shooters. Sterotypical of men perhaps to gripe and complain, perhaps Iwannacoolgunvirus, to "buy scores and targets". The reality is women historically have had to learn to live in a man's world. Adapted quite well, have made advances, and "deal with it". Jane Doe has her gun fitted, has her shoe repair guy un-sew and re-sew her holster to fit her anatomy, gets the machinists in the family to make scope rings, has that model 70 stock shortened and Kick-Eeez installed ...etc. John Doe gripes, blames the mfg., has a box full of holsters,and swaps guns more than he opens a new toothbrush. Jane accepts and can shoot, John makes excuses when he misses. Jane gets lessons and listens, and practices. John is out trading guns again, because the latest gun guru, internet expert or phase of the moon says he has to have a different one if he wants to hit a gnats butt at a certain yardage.

NO-- more women getting involved in shooting, especiallymore recently. CCW has done more to get holster mfg., grip makers, and some handgun designers to wake up. In time these women will have more of a hand in design for rifles and shotguns. Probably when they buy out, become CEO, or have opened thier own shop.

Until then the firearm mfg's only attention to female anatomy is the center-fold, the nude internet-sites, and maybe the once a week "manly duties"... horsefeathers to all that masculine , well you know what?

I could be wrong, but money talks, women have money and will spend it. Women are just more realistic about having to get things fit ,pay for it and don't blame mfg's and equipment. IMO.

Yep I'm a guy, been married, now divorced and single. I felt this way when married and whittled the grips for the Mrs. gun until they fit, sanded and she was happy. She wanted orange inserts, she got 'em. Took a new holster of mine and well, she wanted and we had the shoe shop guy re-do it. I didn't even wince when I bought a used stock for a rifle and cut it down. Now when she eyed MY 1911 CCW...hold it...a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. :D

[Skibane]

Snowman, I am in no way implying that women are "dumbed down". However, as a group, they simply aren't interested in things mechanical in the same way that most men are. With respect to firearms, this trait makes simplicity of operation *VERY* important.

In some regards, technical proficiency is a form of elitism — those who have it tend to look down on those who don't. I see it all the time in the computer industry: Rather than designing the hardware to meet the user's needs, the user must instead adapt to the idiosyncrasies of the hardware – and the "experts" have been living the idiosyncrasies for so long that they're not even aware of them anymore. Similarly, folks who handle guns on a daily basis wonder if the ordinary citizen is even qualified to deal with the complexities of guns (rather than wondering if the guns could be made to be less complex).

Bottom line: Even the most "user-friendly" guns currently on the market are too cumbersome for the vast majority of women to use (not to mention plenty of men). The fact that the sum total of THR's entire female roster can be counted on one hand attests to this fact. All the talk about "training" and "gaining familiarity" in the world aren't going to change this to any significant degree.

[Black Snowman]

re1973, one of the best gun stores in the greater KC metro area is run by a nice lady who I think would agree with you.

If anyone ever finds them self north of Kansas City on I-70 in the area of Kearney, MO be sure to stop by a little shop called "Great Guns". Exit I-70, go east about 3 blocks and turn north into the 1st strip mall you see.

[sm]

Not used to people agreeing with me...especially women, excuse me, I gotta mark my calendar.;)

[Black Snowman]

Skibane Bottom line: Even the most "user-friendly" guns currently on the market are too cumbersome for the vast majority of women to use (not to mention plenty of men). The fact that the sum total of THR's entire female roster can be counted on one hand attests to this fact. All the talk about "training" and "gaining familiarity" in the world aren't going to change this to any significant degree.

Right, you can't talk about training and gaining familiarity. You have to do it. In my High School debate days we called this "outreach". If you want woman to protect themselves with firearms to an increased degree you have to get out there and help them do it. As you pointed out most women don't take in interst in things mechancial. So it stands to reason that a simpler mechanical device won't interset them to any greater degree.

We need to reach out to these woman and cultivate interest. To avoid issues of recoil, weight, ect. . . you don't want to start out on the weapons they'll defend themselves with. You want to start them out on weapons that are classicly good for training. .22 rifles and pistols of various descriptions are a great start.

I don't think any piece of simplified new gear is going to get any more woman to protect themselves effectively with firearms. There just isn't a short cut with something as complicated as the care and use of a firearm.

Cleaning, for instance, is a particularly complex, time consuming, and quite nessisary part of firearm ownership. It's something that any single female living by herself is going to need to know how to do to keep her weapon effective.

I'll agree that simplicity is a good thing. Especially in a defensive weapon. My Mom doesn't have a great interest in things mechanical but she has taken more of an interest in protecing herself. Renewed now that MO (where she lives) will allow CCW and she travels in her work.

She has taken the time and my Father has taken the initiative to introduce her to the intracacies of auto-loading handguns. If she does decided to carry one I'm going to recommend the Glock due to it's simple design and operation and the fact that I know she won't carry any gun with "one in the pipe" (That's past her comfort level for now) so a chance of a ND is minimal even with the lack of a manual safety.

She may end up not carrying, carrying a revolver, or carrying a .50 Desert Eagle. I don't know right now and it's up to her but I do know that the DE is not likely. Her lack of interst previously means that she is just starting in the learning curve and has a way to go before she's proficent, educated, and experianced enough to make a good decision on her personal protection.

There are thousands of choices out there for guns and many would work for her. Saftey procedures, controls, recoil management, and good trigger control are all things that my Dad and I have developed already and are things that my Mom will need to develop if she seriously wants to protect herself which is looking like the case.

A firearm is a dangrous tool and it's use is not something that should be taken casually or in a slipshod manner. I think formal training is a good tool to help get the new people "up to speed" with us old hands. Handing someone a gun they can opporate simply because it's easy is asking for trouble IMHO.

[only1asterisk]

I'm not going to go into misconceptions about women and guns. I'll leave that to the mentioned ladies mentioned above.

I do however agree that there are few guns are tolerant of people (male/female/other) that do not practice with them, do not maintain them or are afraid of them.

If I were to design a home defense weapon system for a recoil sensitive shooter of minimum experience, it would be a 28 gauge Remington 870. It would have a 20” cylinder or modified choke barrel, a magazine extension/flashlight, and a 5 round side saddle. It would retain the full length forearm; have a shortened stock adjustable with spacers and a premium recoil pad. Optional would be ghostring sights, a tritium bead, and magnaporting.

The ammo would be ¾-1oz of hard, plated lead #2 or BB; a #4 buckshot load, and a 300 grain .5” slug at about 1060 fps.

The Remington pump shotgun is simple, easy to maintain (even for a novice), and tolerant of abuse. In a dark house, a 20 or 28ga looks and sounds exactly like as its 12ga brother. The weight of a 28ga can be reduced without fear of increasing recoil, and there are no 28ga magnums to worry about.

A pump action .357 like the Timberwolf carbine would be even better, but as far as I know there are now plans to bring this little gem back.

David

[Dave Markowitz]

If someone -- regardless of gender -- who intends to get a firearm for home defense, but doesn't plan to practice with it or get to know how it works, we have the makings of a serious problem here.

Certainly some designs are better than others from an ease-of-learning standpoint. E.g., a single or double-barrel shotgun has about the simplest manual of arms you can get. Even a single shot scattergun puts you way ahead of an intruder who's armed with anything less than a gun.

As mentioned previously, revolving rifles have the problem of the barrel-cylinder gap. Chamber one in .357 and you are going to scorch your forearm from the blast from there.

That being said, one manufacturer does target the type of user Skibane's concerned about: Mossberg. They make a variant of their Model 500 pumpgun in .410 bore with a 3" chamber, called the "Home Security .410". See <http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm>. To me it looks almost ideal for the posited situation, although I'd prefer it without the spreader choke.

Another good choice IMO would be a Saiga in .410, as long as the user is willing to get a couple hours instruction. Since it's based on the Kalashnikov design it's reliable and will stand up to neglect most other designs won't. And the ammo is fed from a detachable magazine, which simplifies loading it in a hurry (if the gun needs to be kept unloaded). Further, the gas operated action will help soften recoil.

[Dorrin79]

I dunno, my mother keeps a 12ga autoloader (either a Winchester or a Remington, I forget which) by the bed loaded with 00 buck.

She's 5'7", 150 lbs or so, and not particularly strong.

Of course, my mom's pretty hardcore compared to most women.

I have no doubt that my wife would be able to handle my Mossberg 500 12ga in a HD situation, although I'm sure her shoulder would hurt for a long time afterwards.

I think that a 20ga shotgun is probably the best HD weapon for women/young people/small people, generally speaking.

Rifles have far too many overpenetration concerns for me to use them for HD. If I lived out on 100 acres in the Hill country I might feel differently...

[Shootin' Buddy]

Snowman, I am in no way implying that women are "dumbed down". However, as a group, they simply aren't interested in things mechanical in the same way that most men are. With respect to firearms, this trait makes simplicity of operation *VERY* important.
Skibane,

I've seen a woman manipulate and coordinate 12 separate controls on a sewing machine, then with a dexterity requiring both hands, a set of sharp teeth and a foot produce a dress faster than you can see what's going on.

I hardly think three levers on any firearm presents a particular challenge to any woman who is actually interested in shooting.

Don

[RON in PA]

My take is this: long guns are not the best for home defense, shotguns are better than rifles if you go that route, and handguns, esp. revolvers, are best. Overpenetration is always a concern and rifles are the worst in this regard. Long guns are clumsy in the close quarters environment in a home (IMHO if the Bad Guy isn't inside the house you don't have jutification to shoot) and easy to grab. Handguns are better for retention. I like the simplicity of revolvers for both sexes, but since, in my experience, women are harder workers and more willing to learn, a semi-auto is no problem. The important thing is good training in both gun handling and mind-set.

[Onslaught]

I'm not going to TOUCH the actual discussion itself, but I'll just add that Winchester used to make a "Lady Defender" shotgun, but I don't see it offered anymore. They do make a 20 gauge, 8-shot Defender that could easily be fitted with a "youth" model stock.

I think a shotgun is a much better long gun option than a rifle in most cases unless you live on "property".

One thing I have learned is that, for the most part, a husband cannot teach his own wife anything about a subject she already has knowledge on. I.E. my wife, who's father taught her how to shoot and had her legally carrying a pistol with her since she was 18 (small town Alabama, 12 years ago...) doesn't understand that if you don't continue to shoot, and shoot often, you lose your skill. She was a great shot when we met because she had time to shoot and did so often. She hasn't been in years, but still feels confident that she could shoot what she aimed at. Nonetheless, I keep a Walther P99 on her side of the bed in a pistol safe, and I'm planning on buying the Winchester 20 gauge at some point in the near future.

[Black Snowman]

What are you talking about Onslaught, you're at least as much on the origional topic as I am :)

[cordex]

I think a reasonably good home defense weapon for someone with limited upper body strength (regardless of gender) might be a short, light, reliable, large capacity .22LR submachine gun with a 3 position selector ... safe, 2 round burst and 4 round burst with an optional block on the 4 and a mid-range ROF. The gun should be easy to clean and be as reliable as the ammunition. Accuracy should be "minute of torso" at 50 yards (much longer range than a HD really needs) but is not a primary concern.

I figure it'd be light enough to be useable by many physically weak individuals, give some of the the benefits of a shotgun (lots of projos on target quickly) without the recoil that some dislike, be easy to shoot and be inexpensive to train with.

Why Safe, 2, 4 round burst instead of Safe, One, Three or Safe, One, Full?
If it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting again, right? Doubly so with the .22LR. Full auto (beyond burst) doesn't strike me as a good idea for someone not willing to practice trigger control. Plus, having two burst settings gives the user an option to "drop the hammer" a bit harder, but if they accidentally go too far, it won't be all that surprising (the gun will stop firing pretty quickly either way).

.22LR may not be the best performer, but if you automatically put at least 2 into whatever you're aiming at, you're going to do some pretty respectable damage. Additionally, the overpenetration issue becomes less importan

[MolonLabe416]

I was a state certified firearms instructor for some time and have had the opportunity to train with Col. Cooper, Tom Givens, Randy Cain, et. al. I've taught a number of women to shoot. I've been in class with a number of women. Women are as capable as men of operating a self-loading weapon. Women are usually much eaiser to teach as they have no pre-concieved notions and they listen. Far too many men think they are either Starsky or Hutch and have to unlearn bad habits. A woman, in general, should choose a weapon using the same critera as a man.

[Black Snowman]

Your post reminds me of something I already noticed. What makes a REALLY GOOD home defense weapon are the same features that get banned or restricted in the USA. Short barreled carbines, select fire, and supression would all be valuable in a home defense weapon, and as you point out, for far differant reasons than why they were restricted.

If I could have a select fire supressed .223 bullpup I'd feel much safer in any building. Massive firepower on tap and quiet enough that you can still hear after firing. Not to mention it would tame the muzzel blast enough not to set the curtains on fire ;)

[pax]

Cordex,

You sold me.

All you have to do is add a silencer and that'd be the perfect home defense weapon. Silencer necessary because if there's any chance I'm gonna light it off indoors, I want to be able to hear the sirens arriving afterward.

pax

The right to own weapons is the right to be free. -- A. E. Van Vogt

[Ian]

Cordex - Sounds good, but I would be concerned with reliability. Rimfire ammo just seems to malf a lot more than centerfires do. I've heard too many stories of notoriously unreliable full-auto .22s to be comfortable trusting one for home defense.

Skibane - I don't buy it. Firearms are by no means too cumbersome for people to use. I know several kids ages 10-15 who are proficient with centerfire, semiauto pistols. I have a friend who could be my grandmother who is very competant with a fullsize .45 Glock (including reloads, multiple target engagement, malf drills, and other "advanced" skills). I've seen young women who have no prior shooting experience hitting 200 yard steel targets with 'assault weapons' after a single day's instruction with them. It's all a matter of desire to learn. That the vast majority of shooters are male doesn't reflect any inability on the part of women, it reflects a lack of desire and interest. Just like the fact that most clothing makers are women doesn't mean that men are incapable of operating a sewing machine, it just means that men aren't particularly interested in learning to (or mastering it).

[cordex]

All you have to do is add a silencer and that'd be the perfect home defense weapon. Silencer necessary because if there's any chance I'm gonna light it off indoors, I want to be able to hear the sirens arriving afterward.
Hmm ...
Suppressor offers some very good benefits, however also some drawbacks.
I would prefer the criminal know for certain they are being shot. I'd be concerned that the attackers might think they were being menaced with a pellet gun if all they heard when you shot at them was a subdued *poppop*. Additionally, a suppressor would add weight and (depending on the design) length to the weapon.

How's this, Pax. When I can have this gun built for general sale, I'll make several models. They'll have modular trigger groups with a variety of settings (safe/single, safe/single/auto, safe/2/4, etc, etc), and there will be a design that incorporates an integrated sound suppressor. That way you can pick and choose the features you want.

Ian,
I would be concerned with reliability. Rimfire ammo just seems to malf a lot more than centerfires do.
I think it really depends on the ammo you buy. If you get (as I do) bulk-pack $8/550 ammo from Wally World, you're going to have more bad ammo than a similar amount of premium .22LR ammo.
Where's our stalwart defender of rimfires? Mike! Where are you?
I've heard too many stories of notoriously unreliable full-auto .22s to be comfortable trusting one for home defense.
Agreed. Which is why I stipulated that the gun would have to be reliable. I do believe that it would be possible to build one could be made as reliable as any centerfire.

[sm]

We'll I awoke and didn't see any women outside wanting my hide,so I guess I'm...ok...so far.:) < gonna keep fingers crossed still>

I still contend let the gals choose, and adapt the firearm to them. I've addresed the mfg attitudes previously. Yes more comfortable with centerfire, but if a marlin 60 is what they want to start with , fine.

I too have always liked the 28 ga. I played with heavy loads and even made some slugs some years back , being a target/specialy rd for hunters ...well I tried. Not that some folks don't have a model 12, 1100, 870 ,or single shot loaded up with something in 28 ga. real handy.

I recall the .410 pump made for home defence, still some folks have the aforementioned platforms in .410. Heck a lot of women use whatever husband, dad, bro loans them, any shotgun, any ga. Get interested in hunting/targets and just go get one they like.

Mini 14 , M1 carbine, work well.

Best line I ever heard from a classmate, needing a HD on a budget. Comparing a model 60 and a single shot youth NEF 20 ga...

" If awakened at 3:00 am and the sight of me without makeup don't scare 'em, then the sight of this big bore ought to get there attention".

Ask me which I'd run from..." I may be dumb, but I ain't stupid enough to answer a question like that period". :p

Some time later after the she had more money I found her a 20 ga pump youth model,did some work to better fit and all-- en route to the range we ran buy the mall and she bought some jeans and some mini-skirts...as we are working on hitting clays she quipped " you never answered my questions if those clothes made my butt look big". I answered, "nope I didn't and I won't ever either". :) She may be a looker at 36, petite and all with all the parts in right places, but she can use that pump!!!

[MagKnightX]

The ultimate home defense gun for both sexes:

A Phalanx CIWS with shortened barrels and a more sensitive radar system, combined with a good motion sensor to activate it, and something so that if you want to go downstairs for a drink of water in the night, you can turn it off.

Ain't gonna be no more burglars coming to your house after that sucka lets loose for the first time.

Probably no more salesmen, either.

Oh, and keep pets and children away from it, too.

[Skibane]

Mossy 500's...Mini 14's...Marlin leverguns...Saiga shotguns...

Just about every gun that's been mentioned in this thread is significantly more difficult to operate than a revolver-type action. Each of them requires specific procedures to chamber or unload a round, and most of them require the manipulation of a safety in order to leave a round safely in the chamber (where this can even be done safely). Even most of the single-shot shotguns have a hammer that must be cocked prior to use, along with a trigger safety. By contrast, operation of a revolver consists of two acts: 1. pick up the gun, 2. pull the trigger.

As to the gas leakage around the cylinder gap, it shouldn't be that hard to design the gun so that most of the blast is shielded from the user's forehand.

Finally, IMO, the idea that everyone must regularly shoot and "practice" with their guns in order to be worthy of owning them is impractical, at best. Some 90 million Americans own guns, only a small fraction of which are taken out of the closet or drawers with any regularity, let alone used at the range. Few of these owners are "interested" in shooting. Should all of these people not be allowed to own guns? I would submit that the safety record of our ranks speaks for itself in this regard.

[Dilettante]

By contrast, operation of a revolver consists of two acts: 1. pick up the gun, 2. pull the trigger.

Isn't there a "1.5 aim" in there somewhere?

[Kaylee]

ya know... maybe. I gotta admit though, this is starting to.. well.. get my goat, I guess.

If a chick can figure out how to work a steering wheel, gas petal, brake, gearshift, clutch, and all the little do-whazzits on the console while putting on makeup, adjusting the radio, and chatting on the cell phone no less I think a mag release, slide/bolt release, and manual safety aren't gonna be too much for her to figure out.

Seems to me the critical point is getting the chick interested in shooting the thing in the first place. If she is interested, she'll take to just about any firearm just fine... ain't like even a semi-auto rifle is exactly complicated. If she ain't interested, and isn't going to become so..... when Mr. BadMan is beating on the door is a bad time to suddenly have to think about things like lethal force and whether one is prepared to use it.

-K

[sm]

Kaylee, I gotta agree.
My feathers get ruffled when women thought of being "lesser".
Regardless of gender if one ain't interested they ain't interested...no matter what is being mfg'd.
Interest peaks after an "event" , personal, family,or friend, sad to say.

If I may say so, I think this thread is toast.

[Kentucky Rifle]

She carries a .38 Special Snub in her purse and keeps a 12ga double barrel on her side of the bed.<shrug> I really don't know how she does it, but I've watched her put all five rounds from the .38 into a baseball sized group at fifty (50) feet. I can't do that. Never could.
She can outshoot me with any pistol in my safe. (Or rather, "our safe".) The only way I can beat her is to go to the rifles, and then I can "barely" outshoot her. She's good.

KR

[Art Eatman]

As usual, the biggest "problem" is the psychology of any specific individual, male or female.

If a person is willing to consider using deadly force in self defense, it's then a matter of choosing the weapon.

And now we're back to psychology, again: The willingness to become proficient. A willing person can become proficient with pretty much any type weapon. Not "any weapon", but "any type" of weapon. Weight and recoil and sheer size play their parts--again, an individual thing.

As usual, there ain't no "one size fits all" to the deal.

Art

[Marcus]

I`ll skip the psychology and address the original topic. Seems to me an M1 carbine with SPs should fit the bill quite nicely. Marcus

[Zeke Menuar]

Let's get this out of the way now.

Gender should not be an issue when considering a personal defense firearm. Proper gun fit, the right gun for the right conditions and training should all be considered when dealing with self defense issues.

My wife has shot all of my guns past and present and she likes my 4" M686 loaded with 38 spl 158gr +P Nyclads. Heavy gun, little recoil. She is good enough to put three shots on three targets at seven yards in three seconds. Not pinpoint accuracy but enough to hold her own and get to the 12ga in the bedroom

My wife shoots my 686 far better than I do. Her gender has nothing to do with it. The gun fits her well and she had some pretty good training (if I do say so myself).

ZM

[Mannlicher]

To say, or think, that motivated women cannot handle, or learn to handle effective HD weapons is really sexist. We seem to have no problems with thinking a young teen boy can learn about guns , but we balk at thinking women have the same abilities.

My wife handles anything in the house. 12 Ga pump or auto, AR and AK types, and any handgun I have. Your women can too.

[Abominable No-Man]

Some of us are lucky to have wives/girlfriends who are into the same things we are. I say if that's the case, let 'em choose. What can they handle/afford, etc? Up to them. If she walks out of the gun store with a .38 snub, a .22 pistol, or a Streetsweeper, then good on her!

This is a Good Thing, especially if it's guns. Maybe not so good on the bank account, but hey, if you're in love...........

My wife isn't particularly into pistols of any flavor, just not her thing. She does have an El Cheapo .22 pistol for around the house now when I have to be gone, but has stated that if she needs something other than a 12-ga
or my .30-06 (which she does shoot very well, and recoil be damned....), she's in a LOT of trouble and it won't matter until the AAR.

She's going to get a .44 Magnum Ruger autoloader for Christmas, though, so she will keep her mitts off my .30-06........

ANM

[Baba Louie]

When I got divorced I gave my ex (still a good friend) carte blanche on my modest collection, praying that she'd leave me something for myself, as she still had the kids at home to protect (as well as herself).

Her picks... a simple Ruger 22/45 and the old 3" Taurus 82, both of which she can shoot verrrrryy well. No rifle for her. She did tease me a bit by fondling the old Swede 96 while saying, "I don't know, this one shoots pretty well." :uhoh:

I gave my 20 year old son the Beretta 92 (I know, this is Rifle Country) and he has his Wal-Mart 10/22 RSI laminated stock, which his mom shoots quite well.

Daughter gets carte blanche as well, (she's undecided on a handgun at this point). For a girl who's been shooting since she was 8, and has very small hands (how can a teenage girl have her old man wrapped around her little finger so well?) she has big cajones and showed it by saying, "Carte Blanche? Citori please" (my 20 ga Upland... ouch). She loves blasting clay pigeons. Her favorite rifle, however, is the old Inland M1 Carbine which I'll give her on her next (19th) birthday.

My GF likes the Glock 26 and the Ruger 10/22 with Ramline hi-cap (who wouldn't?) and wants some sort of 20 ga pump action.

I agree with Abominable No-Man, Life is good whenever you have a female or two to share your life and love of shooting and wants to try them all.

Adios

[JohnKSa]

I hardly think three levers on any firearm presents a particular challenge to any woman who is actually interested in shooting.
You are ABSOLUTELY correct.

The issue is not ability.

Women who are interested in SHOOTING are few and far between.

Women who are interested in using a firearm for home defense are much more common.

Nobody is saying that women are less capable in any respect, only that their interest in firearms is often primarily RESULTS oriented.

A person who wants an effective means of home defense but isn't interested in shooting (as an end in itself) or in learning about guns past some minimum reasonable level should have options available to them.

[Skibane]

I couldn't have put it any more succinctly, JohnKSa.

Women drivers were not entirely unheard of before the advent of electric starters, power steering and automatic transmissions — even though there were probably plenty of men who thought that anyone who couldn't handle a stick didn't belong on the road. However, it was the introduction of these features that transformed the typical female driver from "hard-core" enthusiast to average citizen — and brought the number of women drivers up to rough parity with men.

[Black Snowman]

Yes, thanks JohnKSa for clearing things up for those of us that are a little slower ;)

[lawboy]

first, i must say i only read the first post in this thread. here is my take. women are no different than men. the best thing to do, man or woman, is find a gun you can comfortable manipulate (all controls, handle recoil, etc.) buy the proper items to store it safely in the home, and SHOOT IT REGULARLY. If a person, man or woman, is not willing to do that, my opinion is that they have done nothing but put a time bomb in their home that they have a false sense of security in because they are not competent to use it under stress. If the person will take the time to become and remain proficient with a weapon of any design that they can truly handle with comfort, nothing else matters. a woman can do this with any "type" of weapon. I have seen large men who cannot hit jack sh-- with a 9mm handgun, and 120lb women who could take you out at 100 yards given a clip of .45 acp ammo. there is no mystery in either: one person didn't know the hell he was doing, one person knew exactly what she was doing. Now, to go a step farther, I don't think anyone should own a gun one day past the date they are proficient in its storage, care and use. Period. Regards.

[lawboy]

Okay, I read a few more posts in this thread. Another asserting I keep reading is bothering the heck out of me. Guns are EXTREMELY SIMPLE mechanical devices in terms of USER maintenance and operation. I am not talking about gunsmithing needs. I live with my fiance and we have several mechines in our home that make a gun look like a toothpick in terms of complexitiy. She has expressed no problem operating any of them. To wit: washer and dryer, VCR, Personal Computer, Surround Sound system with sound staging, combination, microwave/convection oven, automobile, truck ... Surely you are pulling our legs telling us guns are took complex for women to become proficient with. We have roughly, well never mind that, we have a lot of firearms. Okay I have a lot of firearms. :D None of them are all that complicated. We'll take the typical double action semi-auto as case in point. Here are the possible conditions of that weapon:
empty, no clip, slide locked back.
empty, no clip, slide forward, safety on
empty, no clip, slide forward, safety off
empty, clip, slide locked back,
empty clip, slide forward, safety off,
empty, clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, emply clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, empty clip, slide forward, safety off
round in chamber, rounds(s) in clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, round(s) in clip, slide forward, safety off
round in chamber, no clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, no clip, slide forward, safety off

this drill varies somewhat depending on semi-auto type, but you get the point. Now, compare this to all the traffic rules you have to know to drive, all the mechanical things you have to do simultaneously to drive, all the distance, speed, time relationship problems you have to solve second to second while in a car. this business about guns being complex is absolute foolduggery -- someone has not thought this through.

when teaching ANYONE to shoot, one of the first things i do is run them through drills where i hand them a gun in one of the above conditions, they have to do a standard check of the weapon, telling me at each stage
what condition the gun is in, and, at the end, what condition it was in when they first took it from me, and what condition it is in when they hand it back to me. After they can do this without fail, we go shooting. anyone not willing to put the 20 minutes into learning how to check the gun and understand what it can do at any instant given its current state, can learn to shoot with someone elses help because they are not responsible enough to own or use a gun. period. so far, no women I know who has undertaken this task has failed it. It is not hard. It does require the desire and discipline to learn and it does require someone who has the understanding to know that the ability to defend themselves and their family resides 100% in their mind and will, and that learning is how that ability is realized. people with this understanding just might beat back the great unwashed hords with a quality hardwood stick ... i concede the soapbox to my esteemed colleague to my left ...

[lawboy]

JohnSKa, your philosophy is one of the most dangers I have ever heard. If you are not willing to become proficient with the weapon, you should not have it. You are extremely unlikely to be effective with it under stress if your simple bluff is not enough to ward off an attack. Can you imagine allowing people to buy cars, never learn to drive them, but have the right to get on the road with you and your family on the off chance they may one day need to get someplace, in a hurry and when they are under stress?! A car is a deadly weapon. A gun is a deadly weapon. Anyone irresponsible enough to own a gun without being in complete control of it through knowledge and ability should be IMMEDIATELY taught better. Sheesh (option to use it even though they don't want to learn to shoot it!!!) Good Lord. Regards to all.

[Skibane]

lawboy, it seems to me that you're ignoring reality. The vast majority of all American gunowners haven't set foot inside a firing range more than a few times in their entire lives, and few of them have mentors to instruct them. "Interest" or "becoming proficient" have nothing to do with the reason why they own firearms. There is no "practise time" or "learning" involved; they simply buy a weapon as a means of protection, and then set it aside for the day they might need it (hopefully, after one or two initial trips to the range).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that the lack of regular practise and re-familiarization makes these people unfit to own guns. If so, you're writing off perhaps 95 percent of all gun owners.

[lawboy]

That is exactly what I am saying, and you may be generous with your percentage of 95%. It's probably more like 98%. I know, 2nd Amendment and all that. the forefathers were dead right about putting that amendment in there, but even they weren't perfect ... it should say something about RESPONSIBLE ownership it seems to me. Hey, I could be wrong ... wouldn't be the first time.
As for time to learn to shoot ... Give me ANY american home above the poverty line, and I will find you at the least, $2,000 worth of items dedicated and conceived SOLELY for the purpose of amusement, ie., time spent 100% discretionarily. People have time. People choose to use that time doing other things. Fine. Don't own a gun if you can't set aside enough time to be responsible with it. Gun ownership is a serious right with a serious responsibility attached. IT SHOULD NOT BE EASY OR UNDERTAKEN LIGHTLY.
Finally, can you imagine the drop in violent and property crime if all the gunowners in this country were as i describe rather than as you describe? That alone is reason enough to champion RESPONSIBLE gun ownership.

[Art Eatman]

lawboy, you're philosophically correct, but it's (sadly) irrelevant. I've always said that the US attitude is that ownership in and of itself conveys expertise. Ain't so, of course, but that's just the way people are.

It holds for cars as well as guns. A guy buys a Corvette or Viper and he's magically transformed into Rudy Road-Racer. Give him a six-gun and he's Wyatt Urp.

In the real world, the best weapon for self defense for those who only want something near that bedside table is either an inexpensive .38 revolver or a single-shot 20-gauge. The KISS Principle rules.

Art

[JohnKSa]

lawboy,

I never said a person shouldn't learn to be proficient with their firearm.

I was primarily addressing the difference between learning to shoot a very simply operated gun such as a DA-only revolver versus learning to shoot a gun with a more complex manual of arms such as a single-action semi-auto designed to be carried cocked and locked.

For the purpose of RESULTS only, it's reasonable to consider anything over what is required to be proficient and safe with a DA-only revolver to be excessive.

I want to be safe and I want to keep my home safe.

Do I really need to know that I have to unload the magazine THEN empty the chamber when I can just learn to swing out the cylinder?

Do I really need to know the difference between cocking the hammer, engaging a slide stop, disengaging the slide stop, engaging a safety, disengaging a safety, making sure I take a proper hold to disable the grip safety, using a mag release, etc. when I can learn to be safe and effective with a gun that only has TWO controls (cylinder latch & trigger)?

Do I need to understand the intricacies of locked breech actions versus straight blowback actions? Is it critical that I know how to fieldstrip most common semi-automatic pistols?

You're implying that it's impossible for someone to be a good and safe driver if they don't know how to do their own oil changes, aren't interested in the theory of internal combustion engines, and can't operate a stick shift. That's just not true. A person can be a very good driver and very safe but never even touch a stick shift or a wrench or care a whit about the difference between electronic ignition versus mechanical spark advance.

We should be careful that in the process of helping someone to become PROFICIENT and SAFE, we don't try to force someone to become an afficionado.

[SodaPop]

Nevermind:uhoh:

[sm]

I suspect the ladies have since made side bets as to whom digs the biggest hole for themselves. They have stopped commenting, some never did. I'm in enough trouble as is on this thread. Art's last post has me worried, I drive a truck and carry a 1911 style, afraid to hear my psych profile. :D

Hi ladies, I was being polite and considerate for the record. :) It's whatever you want...

[Art Eatman]

:D Me, too. '95 Jimmy full size; '85 Toy 4WD; '80 GMC 7000 dumptruck and a LW Commander...

Art

[Rich357]

Women seem to fall into two groups, those who don't mind the idea of personally using a gun and those who don't want to use a gun. At least one half, or more, of the women I know don't like the idea of owning or using a gun even if it is to save their life. These women won't even carry a good knife. They will, however, carry pepper spray.

I don't understand these women who will not carry a gun or knife to protect their lives. I've mentioned to them that some of these bad guys don't mind at all hurting or killing them. Why wouldn't they be so angry at the idea of some SOB wanting to hurt them, that they wouldn't worry about stopping the attack with a gun or knife? To that question they don't seem to have much of an answer. Or, a few of them say they know God will protect them. I sincerely hope they are right.

I'm all for gun manufacturers making weapons that will be effective and easy to use by women. I this includes making the gun look pretty, why not? As long as it will perform when needed.

Rich

[Double Naught Spy]

Whether or not the single home owner has a vagina or penis is not a relevant issue. The reason there are "Ladies" guns is that the gun folks have created marketing crap to appeal to senses of style and stereotypically less amount of muscle mass present in women. Most of the "Ladies" guns are of the lightweight variety and while light to carry, offer more recoil than their full weight counterparts. I can't recall, but I think it was Smith or Hackathorn in American Handgunner who noted the stupidity of lightweight guns being marketed to ladies as the recoil was not pleasant and if anything, it kept them from practicing as the unpleasant recoil was not something they wanted to experience.

The isssue is not the presence of a vagina, but physical abilities and skills. Regardless of those abilities and skills, rifles offer significant force and may be more easily controlled for shooting by less experienced folks and folks with less muscle (male, female, old, or young).

It is rather naive to make gun suggestions based on sex without taking the more selevant factors into consideration. Sex is a non-issue in this case. While the old saying is that God created man and Colt made men equal, the updated version might be that God created people and Colt made them equal. There is no reason a 100 lb woman can't handle a .45 acp, 12 ga. shotgun, or deer rifle as well as a 200 lb. man. It may take a little more training and require a little more skill to overcome the difference in muscle and gross tonnage, but it can be done.

[lawboy]

Uh, wow.
All respect to the ladies ...

I don't think you have to know how to change oil to drive a car competently.

The original post was about home defense with a gun, not carrying a gun, so cocked and locked issues are moot.

People who constant preach about a revolver being more reliable than an auto, less complex, less prone to jamming ... this is not true.

Revolver's have their own types of jams that must be dealt with such as cylinder binding on backed out or pierced primer, or bullet that has jumped crimp. crud binding the cylinder pin, blocking the cyinder hand or the hammer. I am not saying these things are every day occurences but they happen.

I also freely admit that some guns have simpler manuals of arms than others. My point is the difference is not very much, and can be learned and then mastered with simple practice on a regular basis. My other point is that even with a double action only revolver, a person who does not practice and is not familiar with the gun will not be effective or safe under stress. if their bluff of pointing the gun at someone with shakey hands does not work, they are at MUCH greater risk of failing to fight with the weapon effectively than someone who is competent. THIS APPLIES TO MEN AND WOMEN EQUALLY.

The original argument about selecting guns for women is valid -- each woman should select a weapon she likes and can use effectively; so should each man. There are PLENTY of gun choices out there that will fit any conceivable human being ... I mean, come on. There is no substitute for dedication and practice and will power. You could make a gun that one could pick up, point and aim and shoo just by thinking the thoughts to do it. If you didn't practice those thoughts, you wouldn't likely be succesful in doing it under stress. Folks, look, some people get lucky and get a telling hit the first time, having spent no time with weapons of any kind practicing. I have been in a gun fight and i am NOT an LEO. I can tell you right now, that is NOT what you want to bet your life on, blind stupid luck.

[Mad Man]

Black Snowman wrote:

We need to reach out to these woman and cultivate interest. To avoid issues of recoil, weight, ect. . . you don't want to start out on the weapons they'll defend themselves with. You want to start them out on weapons that are classicly good for training. .22 rifles and pistols of various descriptions are a great start.


Actually, that excellent advice applies to men as well.

Except that most men think they don't need to start with the fundementals. What ability we weren't born with, we learned from watching Mel Gibson and Steven Seagal.



only1asterisk wrote

A pump action .357 like the Timberwolf carbine would be even better, but as far as I know there are now plans to bring this little gem back.


I would love to see a pump-action (or even lever-action) in other common calibers, such as 9mm, .40 S&W, and especially .45 ACP. Even those who have trouble with a .45 handgun (man or woman) should find a .45 carbine easy to use.

Make it so it uses common pistol magazines.



frodo527 wrote:

If someone -- regardless of gender -- who intends to get a firearm for home defense, but doesn't plan to practice with it or get to know how it works, we have the makings of a serious problem here.



Philisophically, I agree, but...

Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to find a place to shoot. For a variety of reasons I won't go into here, shooting is becoming a major inconvenience. For those of us who enjoy it, we put up with the obstacles, because it's our hobby.

Shooting is a lot of work if you don't like it.


Kaylee wrote:

If a chick can figure out how to work a steering wheel, gas petal, brake, gearshift, clutch, and all the little do-whazzits on the console while putting on makeup, adjusting the radio, and chatting on the cell phone no less I think a mag release, slide/bolt release, and manual safety aren't gonna be too much for her to figure out.



People drive their cars every day. Driving "practice" is something most of us get several hours of per week as part of our normal lives.

Shooting is something we have to go out of our way to do.



JohnKSa wrote:

The issue is not ability.

Women who are interested in SHOOTING are few and far between.

Women who are interested in using a firearm for home defense are much more common.

Nobody is saying that women are less capable in any respect, only that their interest in firearms is often primarily RESULTS oriented.

A person who wants an effective means of home defense but isn't interested in shooting (as an end in itself) or in learning about guns past some minimum reasonable level should have options available to them.



Well said.


lawboy wrote:

We'll take the typical double action semi-auto as case in point. Here are the possible conditions of that weapon:
empty, no clip, slide locked back.
empty, no clip, slide forward, safety on
empty, no clip, slide forward, safety off
empty, clip, slide locked back,
empty clip, slide forward, safety off,
empty, clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, emply clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, empty clip, slide forward, safety off
round in chamber, rounds(s) in clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, round(s) in clip, slide forward, safety off
round in chamber, no clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, no clip, slide forward, safety off

this drill varies somewhat depending on semi-auto type, but you get the point. Now, compare this to all the traffic rules you have to know to drive, all the mechanical things you have to do simultaneously to drive, all the distance, speed, time relationship problems you have to solve second to second while in a car. this business about guns being complex is absolute foolduggery -- someone has not thought this through.



As I pointed out above, most people spend several hours a week driving as part of their normal routine. It's easy to accumulate what we shooters call "muscle memory."

This is not the case with shooting, which we have to go out of our way to do.

For a new driver, "all the mechanical things you have to do simultaneously to drive" is complicated, and takes months to learn, and years to do instinctively.

While I spend over an hour a day in my vehicle, I'm lucky to average an hour per month at the shooting range. And on the way to and from the range, I gain another two hours' experience behind the wheel. I don't think I'm the only one.

If we could all spend as much time shooting as we do driving, this discussion would be moot, since we'd all be as proficient with our guns as we are with our cars.

[Mad Man]

And while we're on the guns/cars analogies, here's one I came up with a couple of years ago when asked about buying a revolver vs. a semi-auto. It's not perfect, and I'd appreciate any feedback to make it better:

Shooting a revolver is like driving a car with an automatic transmission. Once you learn the basic technique, it's simple and easy to remember. As with any skill, frequent practice makes better.

Shooting a semi-automatic handgun is like driving a car with a manual transmission. It's not that hard, but there is a larger initial learning curve, and takes more practice. If you do it frequently, it becomes second-nature. If you haven't done it in a while, you may have to stop and think about what you're doing. And you'll probably make a minor mistake or two.

[tex_n_cal]

random musings:

CZ now has a bolt action rifle with 16" barrel, in 7.62x39 - if the female in question can't for some reason manage a gun that is bigger, more complicated, or whatever, that might be a good bet.

I HAVE noted that some ladies who don't have a lot of hand strength may have trouble racking the slide on an autoloader, or inserting rounds into the tube of a lever gun, or into a magazine. A single action revolver may merit consideration, here.

The best bet is still to let her start with a .22, then move up as she's comfortable. This has worked okay for the 4 or so ladies I have taught to shoot.

One female friend is a petite blonde who is uninterested in anything but her Ruger .22/45. I have little doubt she would put 10 .22 caliber holes into anyone accosting her.

Women can indeed handle .357's, .45's, .44's, and the like, with practice, but I'll bet very few successfully start off with one of them. Buy a .22, and go from there.

[Mad Man]

CZ now has a bolt action rifle with 16" barrel, in 7.62x39 - if the female in question can't for some reason manage a gun that is bigger, more complicated, or whatever, that might be a good bet.


I think a pump-action carbine would be more suited for home defense than a bolt action, since it's easier to keep on target while loading the next round.



Women can indeed handle .357's, .45's, .44's, and the like, with practice, but I'll bet very few successfully start off with one of them. Buy a .22, and go from there.


The same is true with men.

I can't tell you how many guys I see start off with a 9mm, .45, .357, etc. -- often at 25 yards, because that's the max at most ranges -- and can't figure out why they're shooting like crap. After all, our favorite movie action heroes had no problem making precise shots at long ranges while running or driving.

Or worse, they delude themselves into thinking that they are doing really great.

[Chris Pinkleton]

One simple problem with this thread: it uses the word "women" where the phrase "novice shooter" should be used.

This is the problem with just about every "woman's gun" thread.

Plenty of well-trained women shooters out there (and on this forum!).

Plenty of unskilled male shooters....heck, that describes most of the "shooters" I see on the range.

Ever notice how women on this board never EVER start these " woman's gun" threads? There's a reason for that.....

Heck, in my very limited experience, novice females tend to be much better shooters than novice males, as well as less recoil sensitive (my stepdaughter's reaction to shooting a .45 Kimber after a .22 Buckmark & a 9mm Taurus on her first trip to the range ever: "I like this one best....it feels like a REAL GUN!").

Back to the original question: the revolver rifle sounds cool, but I'll bet the problem of sideblast would require ultra-tight tolerances, which would then put the weapon out of the price range that novices would wish to spend. There may be a way to put some sort of shroud around the whole gap, but if so, why wasn't this done with revolving longarms made in the 19th century? I think a light, short, break-open double-barrel carbine in 9mm or .38/.357 would be ideal for a user with little to no training. With even minimal training, though, I don't think a semi-auto carbine should present much of a problem to most individuals. And certainly not a pump action, I would like to see more pumps out there.

(So when do we see the thread: "Male shooters: isn't it cute then they try to do something dumb like figure out what's best for us women" in General Discussion? :) )

[Art Eatman]

Chris, don't these threads usually begin because a guy has concern for the safety of a wife or girlfriend?

Most of the discussion about "women's guns" centers around the issue of size and strength of their hands, and what I'd call a "cultural thing" about actually shooting somebody. And, of course, the issue of whether some particular woman would actually practice enought to develop and maintain skill.

It's tied to the "Men are hunters; women are nurturers." concept.

:), Art

[Tamara]

So, uh, what'd be a good man's gun? I have this friend I want to introduce to shooting...

[lycanthrope]

My last girlfriend bought a youth model 870 in 20 gauge from Wal Mart for $240.

For the dollar with was the best home defense gun fro her. I found that training her on clay pigeons boosted her confidence kept her interest a lot longer than punching paper. On that note, I feel the best defense gun for a woman will be the one she's comfortable with and handle a lot.

[Black Snowman]

Tamara So, uh, what'd be a good man's gun? I have this friend I want to introduce to shooting...

Well, my Dad started me out on a S&W AirWeight shooting 22 shorts and Kamicosmos' first handgun of his own was a Redhawk in .44 Mag so I guess men are just a varied as women. With your collection, I'm sure you'll find something they'll like ;)

PS: Yes, I know it's a serious answer to what was ment to be a thought provoking question that was mostly rhetorical.
I'm really amazed you waited this long to chime in. I can see why they made you a Mod. Incredible restraint and judgement. Must be all that gun handling ;)

[thisaway]

What about a Ruger 10/22 magnum?I would think that nine or ten rounds of CCI hollowpoints to COM would be very likely to discourage any BG !
Thanks, Thisaway

[Andrew Wyatt]

remington 1100 lightweight in 20 gauge, with a shortened barrel that fits.

it's light and handy and the manual of arms is pretty simple, especially if it is kept cruiser ready.