Glock and Walther PPSs are no good for CC heres why


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newmenu
February 19, 2009, 03:59 AM
I just dont like striker-fire guns for DC. the glock is the shovel of auto pistols and the PPS is a great ultra concealable gun, but as wonderfully great they may seem for DC, that striker-fire system makes them a no go imo. fact is, if you are unlucky enought to have to use your CC gun to defend yourself, then you may just be unlucky enough to have a dud chambered and ready to fail you.

now if you have a DA/SA or DA only gun, you can simply pull the trigger again and 99.999% of the time that will make the dud fire and boom your back in action.

sure you can say, well, all Id have to do is pull the slide back and load another round. great! but what if your off hand is unavailable? what if all you have is 1/2 second to react? you can pull that trigger 3 or 4 times in a second easy, can you pull the trigger, action the slide(assuming your off hand is available) and pull the trigger again in 1/2 second?

just my $0.02

now let the hate pour on in I can already feel it coming:cool:

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ugaarguy
February 19, 2009, 04:40 AM
now if you have a DA/SA or DA only gun, you can simply pull the trigger again and 99.999% of the time that will make the dud fire and boom your back in action.
Could you please provide a link showing a valid source for this statistic? My experience differs, although I've never done any scientific, nor pseudo-scientific, research on the matter.
sure you can say, well, all Id have to do is pull the slide back and load another round. great! but what if your off hand is unavailable? what if all you have is 1/2 second to react?
What happens in that situation when your restrike doesn't work, or you have some other malfunction like a FTE or Failure to Feed after you fire the first round? The good old Tap, Rack, Roll clearance drill, in my experience, generally solves the problem.
you can pull that trigger 3 or 4 times in a second easy, can you pull the trigger, action the slide(assuming your off hand is available) and pull the trigger again in 1/2 second?
Yes, I can, as can most folks here who even a minimum amount of training.

I have a little more news for you: The handgun with longest combat service record, the M1911, doesn't have restrike capability without manually cocking the hammer. The FN/Browning GP35/Hi Power, also with an impressive combat record, operates the same. Every major assault and main battle rifle that I know of also lack restrike capability.

Of course, it's your gunfight, so equip yourself with whatever you feel best meets your needs.

heavyshooter
February 19, 2009, 04:54 AM
WOW!!! Ahhhhh, I don't know what your goal is here, but this has the potential to get pretty heated. I’m glad I got here early so I have a chance to respond before the fireworks.

While I am not a big fan of Glock, the striker is not my issue (I don't like the grip angle). If you have a dud your immediate reaction should be “tap, rack, fire.” I don't care if I have a hammer or a striker; that is the proper remedy to a bad round.

I noticed that you presented a scenario in which my off hand is not available to rack the slide. First of all, that is a very rare scenario. Second, there is a means of racking a slide without the spare arm; that's what belts are for. Third, you are not applying such rare scenarios to yourself. For example, there are duds that will not fire no matter how often they are struck. In fact, this is much more likely than the loss of my spare arm. So your ability to pull the trigger repeatedly is moot. In this situation the proper response is the same as a striker fired gun; “tap, rack, fire.”

Now I am going to get out of the way because boy you 'bout to start some mess. :D:D:D

legion3
February 19, 2009, 05:04 AM
just my $0.02

This was the only thing of value you wrote.


You do know that cops who carry Glocks are taught how to rack the slide with only 1 hand.



:barf:

TexasRedneck
February 19, 2009, 08:14 AM
Sorry....but as others have already pointed out, you're all wet. Especially if you get into a FF with that idea. You'll still be clickin' when others would have already cleared the round and finished the job at hand.

Davionmaximus
February 19, 2009, 08:17 AM
SECURITY!!!! lol

Glocks are DA action only... FYI

Any semi auto suffers from the above described issue. Dud = no bang>> No fully understanding what hitting a dud again will do...

Storm
February 19, 2009, 08:30 AM
now if you have a DA/SA or DA only gun, you can simply pull the trigger again and 99.999% of the time that will make the dud fire and boom your back in action.

No, that probably isn't the case, at least at that percentage or anywhere near it. And while second strike capability is touted as a big advantage by some, I think the better course of action is to tap, rack the gun bringing up a fresh round where the chance of a second dud is virtually zero, unless of course your gun has firing pin issues, in which case you might as well just throw the danged thing.

All of this is open to debate, and often is.

jtemple
February 19, 2009, 08:46 AM
While I am not a big fan of Glock, the striker is not my issue (I don't like the grip angle). If you have a dud your immediate reaction should be “tap, rack, fire.” I don't care if I have a hammer or a striker; that is the proper remedy to a bad round.This.

I have fired many rounds through both types of pistols. My experience has been that a re-pull of a trigger very rarely fires a bad round. I'm not going to waste my time trying, when I can eject the bad round and try again on a fresh one.

The only time my Glock has failed to fire a chambered round is with Winchester WinClean. I don't know what it is with those primers, but my Glock sure doesn't agree with them.

burningsquirrels
February 19, 2009, 08:52 AM
sounds like a personal preference and rant.

train your tap rack bang and one handed gun handling.

i guess all law and military personnel are screwed with their glocks and 1911s, why don't you write them?

jackstinson
February 19, 2009, 08:54 AM
sure you can say, well, all Id have to do is pull the slide back and load another round. great! but what if your off hand is unavailable?
No problem at all.
Tom Cruise has demonstrated the "one-hand and a desk top" technique of racking a PPK slide.
That should work fine on a PPS.

NG VI
February 19, 2009, 09:12 AM
I just dont like striker-fire guns for DC. the glock is the shovel of auto pistols and the PPS is a great ultra concealable gun, but as wonderfully great they may seem for DC, that striker-fire system makes them a no go imo. fact is, if you are unlucky enought to have to use your CC gun to defend yourself, then you may just be unlucky enough to have a dud chambered and ready to fail you.



Wow. I actually think my Glocks have nice clean lines. And I don't think I've ever experienced a dud that wasn't a rimfire either.

possum
February 19, 2009, 12:04 PM
Glock and Walther PPSs are no good for CC heres why
sorry you feel that way, and for you maybe they aren't right but for many many many folks they are.

you may just be unlucky enough to have a dud chambered and ready to fail you.
well now since we are playing the "what if" game, if you would have spent time training on type 1 malfunction clearance and had qaulity ammo then this wouldn't be a problem. a type one is an easy fix, as a matter of fact each time i go to the range i mix in inert rds to get added training value, and i am guranteed to have atleast 1 type 1 per mag. if you work at it enough you will be able to do it, when you hear the click, and you will probally not even be able to tell that you actually did it. tap rack is all there is to it.

possum
February 19, 2009, 12:08 PM
sure you can say, well, all Id have to do is pull the slide back and load another round. great! but what if your off hand is unavailable? what if all you have is 1/2 second to react? you can pull that trigger 3 or 4 times in a second easy, can you pull the trigger, action the slide(assuming your off hand is available) and pull the trigger again in 1/2 second?
again this goes back to training which seems that you have none of. you should see the scars on my holsters, and my guns where i have racked the slide one handed only both strong and weak so many times. it is something that i do every trip to the range.

you have to train for everything, your gun is a da/sa and you can pull the trigger again, if you pick up another gun or for some reason have to use a gun that isn't da/sa you will be screwed, you have trained for a da/sa gun and at that time you don't have one, you are gonna be scratching your head trying to figure out what the heck is going on when you should have tapped, racked and been back in the fight. if i am using a da/sa gun or if i am using a glock, sa xd, 1911, it dosen't matter when i hear click instead of bang, it is an imediate tap and rack and keep on keeping on.

NOLACOPUSMC
February 19, 2009, 12:10 PM
Troll

newmenu
February 19, 2009, 05:38 PM
NOLACOPUSMC -
Troll

absolutely no
fact is Ive just been trying to see whats the best all round, all situation ccw. from what I gather, that all depends on the individual and their specific circumstances and training. If your trained enough to quickly rack your auto pistol onehanded, then thats great! I would say the glock is probably your best bet for a ccw. if your not so good at that technique than I would probably go with a sig, or an hk. if your not proficient with onehanded racking but are a really darn good shot under stress, two or one handed than Id say a 5 shot snubby would be your first choise.

carry what you want, im not here to criticize what people like, im just throwing this out there is all, and all things considered, im going to look into shooting training as well as onehand racking. i never wouldve thought of it withouth this thread, so thank you.

wtfd661
February 19, 2009, 05:48 PM
I just dont like striker-fire guns for DC, that striker-fire system makes them a no go imo

Then don't buy one, thats just MHO. :neener:

just my $0.02

psyopspec
February 19, 2009, 05:50 PM
from what I gather, that all depends on the individual and their specific circumstances and training.

I wholly agree, but that contradicts what you said above, and that's why you'll see this thread continue to fill up. Ultimately, what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours, and as long as your training/carry habits are safe and suit you, who cares about the details of your or anyone else's preference?

newmenu
February 19, 2009, 06:12 PM
im just playing devils advocate so I may learn. I want to know as much as i possibly can, i am just considering all things here.

heavyshooter
February 19, 2009, 06:30 PM
Hmmm, Am I the only one who saw this coming? :uhoh: newmenu, let me give you THR lesson #1. Never word you opinions as though they were facts. Hold on to your boot straps boss; it's about to get bumpy. :D

***Bonus Lesson - Never, ever, never criticize Glocks!!! I do not like them, but it is an excellent and battle tested gun design. Any cricism of it is merely a matter of preference. If you present your prefernce in an exclusive manner you offend the millions of Glock lovers in the world. You are asking for a beef if you do that. ;)

Just Trying to keep the peace

Heavy

stevereno1
February 19, 2009, 06:39 PM
I carry a G-27, trijicons,+1 Factory mag extention with 180 grain Hornaday TAP loads in it. I guess I'm screwed!

legion3
February 19, 2009, 06:41 PM
Never, ever, never criticize Glocks!!!

+1 Learn it, live it, love it. The shovel of autopistols...INDEED! :cuss:

legion3
February 19, 2009, 06:42 PM
Never, ever, never criticize Glocks!!!

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x49/roman3/GLOCKTEN.jpg

TexasRedneck
February 19, 2009, 06:57 PM
That's right - Glock owners, like their guns, are somewhat goofy....

<ya'll excuse me, ah hear mah ma callin' me.....>

:)

priler
February 19, 2009, 07:15 PM
hey newmenu,have you ever stuck your finger in a hornets nest?

by the way,your not the only one to write misinformation on this one thread.

newmenu
February 19, 2009, 07:21 PM
it feels more like i stuck my head in a hornets nest! I have to say, ive seen some really good points and ideas here and am glad this thread exhists

priler
February 19, 2009, 07:54 PM
if your looking for a striker fired pistol with second strike capabilities,i suggest you look at the walther p99AS and/or compact.they do every thing a traditional hammer fired DA/SA does but with a lighter first DA pull without having to change the main spring and keeping it's original primer strike reliability.this is SPECIFICALLY why walther went with striker fired.

don't be fooled,there are other striker fired pistols on the market that also have second strike capabilities but none of them do every thing a traditional hammer fired DA/SA is supposed to do. NONE.

as icing,s&w CS is one of the best around.

by the way,if you only have one hand,place the rear sight on your belt and rack away and remember to always keep your finger off the trigger.

newmenu
February 19, 2009, 08:00 PM
thank you for a priler for a very constructive reponse. im gonna do some looking into the p99as and SWcs right now

burningsquirrels
February 19, 2009, 08:24 PM
you should always try to train using your carry piece one handed... load, rack, and fire proficiently with your right, then with your left hand. one hand can always be holding onto your wife or kid, or be stabbed or shot. you just never know, so gotta keep all your options open. a fire department doesn't just count to see if all hoses and supplies are accounted for, they go out and try to do drills and fake fires of all types to be ready. we should have the same mentality.

default
February 19, 2009, 09:03 PM
Let's say that the Paris Metro Bunny (http://www.lorbus.com/archives/blogimages/metrobunny.gif), Dr. Strangelove (http://www.channel4.com/film/media/images/Channel4/film/D/dr_strangelove_xl_01--film-B.jpg) and I are in a gunfight. I have a GLOCK 30 which I foolishly loaded with ammunition I knew to have unusually hard primers. The Paris Metro Bunny has a S&W 340PD. Dr. Strangelove has a SIG-SAUER P220 Compact. We each fire 5 rounds, and in the confusion, we all miss. We all pull the trigger a sixth time. We all hear clicks, because I've hit a tough primer, Metro Bunny runs dry, and Dr. Strangelove has a double feed. We all struggle to get back in action, but it's difficult because the rabbit and I have each gotten our hands stuck in sliding doors, and Dr. Strangelove is having one of his uncontrollable sieg-heiling attacks.

I bet I can retract the slide far enough one-handed to reset the striker before the bunny can reload or Strangelove can clear the malfunction.

Seriously, though, while there's nothing wrong with restrike capability, scenarios where it wouldn't help are as or more likely than ones where it would, so I wouldn't make it a high priority in and of itself.

TexasRedneck
February 19, 2009, 09:12 PM
In the above scenario, reload the Glock an' give it to the Bunny. If yer THAT bad a shot, you deserve it!<SEG>

Lonestar.45
February 19, 2009, 09:58 PM
Wow, I wonder if the millions LEO's and military personnel out there carrying Glocks are aware of this defect?

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