Chamber Loaded? Or NOT ? What do YOU do ?

[David E]

Some people carry chamber loaded, some don't, regardless of gun.

Which way do YOU carry and why?

.

[Clarence]

Loaded, my S&W isn't going to go off unless I pull the trigger, so there is no safety issue.

[MisterMike]

Unloaded. A couple of reasons:

First, it was the way I was trained (USAF).

Moreoever, I've seen safeties fail, and I have seen a few instances in which an experienced and well-trained shooter made a mistake in determining that his gun was "safed," resulting in accidental discharges. In one of these instances, the guy killed his best friend. We're all human and we're all susceptible to brain farts. So, in my mind--and I don't claim that those who feel otherwise are wrong--the fraction of a second it takes to rack a slide is a small price to pay for the added peace of mind.

Finally, we've all heard of plenty of instances where big strong men have lost their weapons to bad guys. I don't intend to ever let that happen . . . but, then again, they probably didn't either. If someone gets my gun from me, the fact that a round is not chambered may allow me an opportunity to escape or re-engage a perp who pulls the trigger and finds that the gun doesn't shoot.

I don't claim that mine is the only correct approach, but I'd urge everyone who carries to think through as many scenarios as they can to arrive at a reasoned decision.

[Sam1911]

Loaded. Always. If I need it, I need it NOW. Not in "just a moment."

If you check the 30-bazillion other threads that have been posted on this subject I belive you'll find that this is the majority opinion.

Might try searching "cocked and locked," or "Condition 1."

As an aside, there may be some value in carrying in Condition 3 (empty chamber) if you're using a "Smart Carry" or "Thunderwear" rig. Seems a fellow got some of his shirt-tail bunched up in his trigger guard while carrying in one of those underwear holsters and managed to AD when he bent over. Probably a 1 in 1,000,000 chance, but shooting yourself in the groin is so embarassing. :o Besides, you won't be drawing from one of those holsters quickly anyhow so worrying that you have to chamber a round too is sort of ten cents holding up a dollar.

-Sam

[Mainsail]

Unloaded. A couple of reasons:

First, it was the way I was trained (USAF).

Well, I was also trained by the AF- to carry my Berretta with a round in the chamber and the safety off.

I have seen a few instances in which an experienced and well-trained shooter made a mistake in determining that his gun was "safed," resulting in accidental discharges. In one of these instances, the guy killed his best friend.

That gun in your example was not being carried, it was being handled. When handing a firearm, the “four rules” apply. When carrying a firearm in a proper holster, it is virtually impossible for it to “go off”.

Carrying a handgun for protection with the chamber empty assumes that you will always have two luxuries when your life is in danger; time and two hands. That’s one hell of a gamble!

Of the group that has the most potential and history of having their gun snatched, how many of them carry with the chamber empty? None. (It’s the police)

[NavyLT]

One in the chamber followed by a full magazine.

1. What if I don't have both hands available to rack the slide?

2. What if I don't have time to draw and rack the slide?

3. What if something goes wrong in the heat of the moment while racking the slide and the gun fails to feed ?

4. What if I am a third person in a self defense situation, IE: observing an armed robbery in progress, and wish to draw my weapon in stealth without being detected - I can't make it ready without making the noise of racking the slide.

5. Modern firearms have a minimum of two safeties to prevent accidental discharges.

6. I have been in simulator training in the military where it was very evident that when presented with the surprise appearance of a gun it was very difficult to get the first shot off with a weapon at the ready and would have been completely impossible if my gun was not completely loaded to begin with.

[possum]

i carry locked nd loaded ready to go.

for people that carry like the Israeli's do a few reps of the "tueller" drill and yo uwill quickly see that you can't get that gun into play as fast as you think you can.

[jackstinson]

Loaded....ie: one in the chamber and a full magazine.

[sohcgt2]

cocked and locked and ready to rock. Until a round is in the chamber the gun is just a funny shaped rock.

[WarHall]

Already been through the AD issue, my carry does not have a safety, and I can rack a round while pulling the trigger at the same time(It's kinda hard to stop shooting that way, but it works...) If you carry cocked and locked, you're asking for an AD into your thigh in a high stress situation, and then the bad guy's definitely going to win that one. Just the other day I was getting into my truck, had holstered my pistol (CCW) and my seatbelt pulled my pistol out (still can't figure that one out, most likely it wasn't seated in my holster very well).

[MisterMike]

Originally Posted by Mainsail:

Well, I was also trained by the AF- to carry my Berretta with a round in the chamber and the safety off.


Strange . . . when were you in the USAF? I was in from 1976 to 2004. Initially we carried revolvers (or M16/GAU-5s), but when we later went to the M9 the training I received always mandated no round in the chamber and safety on, except when you drew your weapon. It's odd that we had not only different, but pretty much opposite, training experiences.

Again, I'm not claiming that anyone who does it differently is wrong, only that I am more comfortable with my approach and find it completely workable. To expand on my comments, though, I have no difficulty in operating the slide with one hand--belts, heels, other external objects all make it very easy. However, a person should practice. And, while I appreciate the "able to react in a split second" argument, I would respectfully submit that, if you find you need to be able to pull your gun and instantly discharge it, you've probably already screwed up. If you really are exercising your sense of situational awareness and your discipline in effecting a measured and ordered response, the occasion for a "quick draw and fire" should never present itself.

Again, I'm not criticizing those who look at this differently than I do, but I would hope that, whichever approach they take, they think through and appreciate the ramifications. When I read comments like "cocked, locked and ready to rock," the question that comes to mind is whether that person has the mental discipline to react properly under pressure (no offense, sohcgt2 . . . it's just a convenient example).

[Mainsail]

Strange . . . when were you in the USAF? I was in from 1976 to 2004. Initially we carried revolvers (or M16/GAU-5s), but when we later went to the M9 the training I received always mandated no round in the chamber and safety on, except when you drew your weapon. It's odd that we had not only different, but pretty much opposite, training experiences.

I served from 1983 until 2003. I was a Flight Engineer on C-141B Starlifters for 17 of those years. We carried the S&W Model 15, .38 special (I carried mine in an ankle holster on the front of my shin on the outside of my flight boot) and then transitioned to the M9 concealed (except for the huge lump) in a shoulder holster.

I heard many stories of SPs shooting their mirrors in the barracks while practicing their quick-draw. I’m not trying to stereotype all Security Forces personnel, but there has always been a huge maturity difference between SPs and aircrew, and that may have driven that policy. Horseplay with a loaded firearm at 37,000 feet, or in a foreign country that doesn’t allow firearms at all, simply wasn’t acceptable.

By all means carry the way that you find most comfortable and tactically sound. I openly carry a 1911 locked and loaded and feel perfectly safe. Even if all three safeties fail, it will never go off while it’s locked in the holster. Even if all three safeties should fail right at the moment I need to draw, it still isn’t going to go off unless I pull the trigger. It’s not about “being able to react in a split second” as much as it’s about not believing it tactically sound to require two hands to reliably bring the gun into action. I often have a laptop bag or phone in one hand.

[MisterMike]

Hmmm. Sounds like it may have been exactly what you described--training particularized to the AFSC (and the audience). It sounds like you may have had more fun that I did in the USAF. I was an SP shift commander and retained my SP/SF AFSC as a secondary, though I later went to law school and became a JAG. My 27 years were split between active duty and Cat A Reserve.

Really, I don't have a dog in this fight, except to reiterate what we've both said--you should consciously think through whatever approach you take and make your decisions based on your particular abilities and focus. I just want people to think about this and understand the ramifications of their decisions. Maybe it's because I've been both an LEO and a prosecutor, but it bothers when I see people approaching the use of firearms casually.

BTW, I carry a Glock, so I view it as a different kind of animal than a 1911.

[CoRoMo]

Condition 3

[stevereno1]

Loaded!

[DHJenkins]

Loaded, always. If you don't trust that your weapon's safeties work, you shouldn't trust the rest of it either.

[LT1coupe]

Loaded, in a holster/pocket holster.
I don't think I can draw, rack the slide & aim fast enough to address a problem. It'd also be hard to rack one in the chamber quietly if the situation warranted it.

[David E]

Chamber loaded is the only way to carry a serious gun being worn on the body.

Citing "the military trained me this way" really doesn't cut much mustard, as the military generally treats recruits as immature idiots, especially when it comes to guns.

When I was in, MP's were required to carry chamber empty and only 5 rds in the magazine.

For you folks that carry chamber empty, would you also keep the first chamber on the revolver empty if you carried one? That whole, "if he takes my gun, I have a chance" thing still applies, doesn't it?

I can understand if you simply don't trust a chamber loaded Glock or 1911.........but why not choose something else that you would trust to carry chamber loaded?

.

[colemanw]

empty, i figure if i dont have time to rack the slide i wont have the time to do much of anything... im no pro, better safe than sorry

[David E]

You'd need to be MORE of a "pro" to successfully work the slide under severe stress when fractions of a second count.

This, of course, assumes you'll have both hands available, which is a mighty big ASSumption to make when lives are at stake.

[MisterMike]

Chamber loaded is the only way to carry a serious gun being worn on the body.

Citing "the military trained me this way" really doesn't cut much mustard, as the military generally treats recruits as immature idiots, especially when it comes to guns.

Well, what's your reasoning? I understand you bottom line conclusion, but would be interested in hearing how you get to this point.

[Duke of Doubt]

MisterMike is so right.

Over the years I've witnessed some MAJOR concealed carry fails. By that I mean people tripping and falling, guns going flying into a crowd or into traffic, getting run over by buses, et cetera. Even I've had a gun fall down my pants leg in public (I discretely recovered it).

I carry my 92FS chamber unloaded. It's real quick and easy to rack the slide, and I don't have to worry about a loaded gun falling off me, down a ladder and into the kiddie pool area hammer first, for example.

[David E]

I realize this may not apply to everyone here, but my comments presume that the gun carrier is SERIOUS about it.

This means using a quality holster !! Citing examples of a gun slipping down the pants leg, or spilling out of the waistband when no holster (or a crappy one) was used is meaningless.

This means practicing drawing the gun from concealment.

This means using a quality gun that's mechanically safe.

This means using quality ammo.

This means not being an idiot !

Presuming you're using a quality holster that was designed to carry your gun and the rest of the elements I mentioned, I'll try to cover the advantages/disadvantages of both carry methods.

Chamber EMPTY Con:

1) Requires TWO hands, or a whole lotta luck and/or time. You do not know if you'll have two hands available. You may just have one and it might be your weak hand.

2) Maximizes the chances for a jam when under severe stress. Ever try chambering one hand only using the weak hand? How about with sweaty or bloody hands?

3) Reduces capacity by the one round that you might dearly need a couple seconds later.

4) It takes time. Even if the added time is "only" a 1/2 second. To many, a 1/2 second = 2 to 4 shots.

5) It's loud. It's difficult to do a surreptitious draw when you're starting with a partially empty gun.

6) Requires the magazine to be fully seated. Maybe the mag catch got activated inadvertantly during the day or during the struggle you were in while trying to draw the gun. The mag slips down a few 1000th's and when you do break free to rack the slide, your gun goes "CLICK!" (The two "loudest sounds in the world" are a BANG! when you're expecting a 'click,' and a "CLICK" when you're expecting a 'bang') By the way, how fast is your "tap-rack-bang" protocol?

Chamber Empty PRO:

To be honest, I'm going to have to swipe the first 3 reasons previously listed by others, with my comments in italics:

1) First, it was the way I was trained (USAF).

The military is a poor teacher regarding handguns.

2) Moreoever, I've seen safeties fail, and I have seen a few instances in which an experienced and well-trained shooter made a mistake in determining that his gun was "safed," resulting in accidental discharges. In one of these instances, the guy killed his best friend.

Just how "well-trained" could he possibly have been ? Must've been trained by the USAF.... He was an idiot, pure and simple. Too bad someone had to die proving that.

3) If someone gets my gun from me, the fact that a round is not chambered may allow me an opportunity to escape or re-engage a perp who pulls the trigger and finds that the gun doesn't shoot.

I'm having a hard time following the logical thought here......unless he yanked the gun out of your hand while you were fumbling with it trying to get one chambered.....

Otherwise, it seems to me that if there were a threat dire enough to draw the gun in the first place, it was also dire enough to SHOOT the guy rather quickly, so I don't see how the badguy has the time to take the gun. Unless you can't chamber it "in a fraction of a second" as planned.

4) It's a good way for a gun stored OFF body, such as the glove compartment, console, briefcase or nightstand.

Chamber Loaded PRO:

1) Can fire immediately upon drawing, even if one handed, even if in a bear hug by the badguy. (that happened in my old department) Did I mention you can fire immediately upon drawing?

Chamber Loaded CON:

1) Not best suited for "stored" guns, or any gun not carried on body.

2) Not suited for cheap "striker fired" guns. The strikers have been known to shear the sear, firing the gun.

3) Not forgiving of inept handling.



These cover the highlights.

Hope it helps.

.

[David E]

I carry my 92FS chamber unloaded. It's real quick and easy to rack the slide, and I don't have to worry about a loaded gun falling off me, down a ladder and into the kiddie pool area hammer first, for example.

Did you know it's physically impossible for your Beretta to fire a chambered round if it hit the concrete hammer first?

(what holster do you use that it falls out all the time?)

.

[CoRoMo]

I forgot to answer the why part of the question. Here's my answer...

I have no good, acceptable, or logical reason.

[David E]

I forgot to answer the why part of the question. Here's my answer...

I have no good, acceptable, or logical reason.

You carry Condition 3 (chamber empty, hammer down) but you don't have a good reason why ?

Odd.

You should at least be able to articulate a good/acceptable reason to yourself.....

.

[Floppy_D]

I carry loaded, because a poll on THR told me to. :D

In seriousness, if it's not something I can trust to be carried condition 1, then I have no business carrying it. Sigs, 1911s, revolvers... all loaded and ready to go.

[sohcgt2]

Again, I'm not criticizing those who look at this differently than I do, but I would hope that, whichever approach they take, they think through and appreciate the ramifications. When I read comments like "cocked, locked and ready to rock," the question that comes to mind is whether that person has the mental discipline to react properly under pressure (no offense, sohcgt2 . . . it's just a convenient example).

None taken, I understand your point. I too was trained by the military or more accurately re-trained. There were guns in my house growing up and I was trained to handle them at home prior to receiving military training. I am however 3rd generation military so the training at home was informal military training. The point is the military has a mission and you were just a tool they used to accomplish that mission. Outside their control you have your own mission, mine is to survive and thrive. I do my best to avoid all threats. I tend to distance myself from others and especially so if the others raise my guard through appearance or actions. If however, I should find the need to draw my weapon from its holster I want to know that it is ready to shoot. I can completely disassemble and reassemble a 1911 in under 5 minutes, and I can assemble a field stripped Glock in about 15 seconds, But I will not carry either without a round in the chamber. Cocked, locked, and ready to rock. Its just fun to say that.

[jfdavis58]

1911, officer sized variant. Condition 1. Been robbed at gunpoint; several times--ain't happening again without the possibility of immediate & severe consequences for the perpetrator.

[Glockman17366]

Since I carry a revolver most the time, I carry with all chambers filled.
When I do carry a semiauto (Glock 19), there's one in the chamber.

However, when I'm home, I do not keep a round in the chamber. The magazine is fully charged and inserted in the mag well though.

[bensdad]

Cond. 1. The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast.

[06]

I like 1911(or clones) that have half cock, thumb safety, grip safety, and finally the trigger. I carry them loaded. IF and probably never, I had a Glock then my conscience would not allow me to carry a hammered back over a round in the chamber with only a trigger safety to stop it. I like more than one safety. If things get a bit difficult then I can cock/lock and still have two safeties. There is a young widow about 8 miles from me. Last week her husband laid his head onto the pillow beside her and thirty minutes later the gun(under the pillow) went off killing him. A 1911 will never go off accidently because that hammer has to be back first, then the grip squeezed, safety off, and finally the trigger squeezed. That is the only way it will fire. Ask the cop who shot himself in the leg what he thinks of Glocks now. Ask my buddy who tossed his into his PU and shot a hole in the door. Do I keep a round in the chamber-yes--but only with a "safe" pistol, wc

[Mainsail]

Uh, sorry. No Glock will fire by resting your head on it, pillow or not.

[cjranucci]

Sorry, but modern Glocks have more than a trigger safety. From their website:

TRIGGER SAFETY
As the first of the three GLOCK “Safe Action” safety features, the trigger safety prevents inadvertent firing by lateral forces on the trigger. Releasing the trigger will automatically reactivate the safety.

FIRING PIN SAFETY
The GLOCK firing pin safety is a solid hardened steel pin which, in the secured state, blocks the firing pin channel, rendering the igniting of a chambered cartridge by the firing pin impossible. The firing pin safety is only pushed upward to release the firing pin for firing when the trigger is pulled and the safety is pushed up through the backward movement of the trigger bar. Releasing the trigger will automatically reactivate the firing pin safety.

DROP SAFETY
In the line of duty it may happen that a loaded pistol is dropped on the floor. Contrary to conventional pistols, the GLOCK drop safety prevents unintentional firing of a shot through hard impact. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar is guided in a precision safety ramp. The trigger bar is deflected from this ramp only in the moment the shot is triggered.

While I am not advocating Glocks over 1911s or revolvers, all I am saying is your post makes it sound as if a Glock with a round in the chamber is an accident waiting to happen. In all actuality, the second you put your finger inside of the trigger guard, you better be ready to fire. Keep your finger (and anything else) outside of the trigger guard, and you have a perfectly safe weapon, round chambered or not.

[David E]

You cannot cite what idiots did to make your "point!"

[jc650]

I carry a Glock 26 most of the time and when thats the carry weapon of choice there is 1 in the chamber. A proper IWB holster that covers the trigger is important. I have a friend that carries a G 19 w/o one in the chamber, thats what hes comfortable with so thats what he does.

[David E]

Ok, no one has answered these questions I posed earlier:

1) If you don't feel comfortable with your gun being carried with one in the chamber, why not pick a gun that does make you feel comfortable with one in the chamber?

2) If you carried a revolver, would you also keep the first chamber up empty for "safety" reasons?

.

[wankerjake]

If I'm carrying I have one in the pipe so I am ready to use it.

[Redhawk1]

Loaded...

[HippieMagic]

Why would you sleep with a gun under your pillow? That just seems uncomfortable... I can personally say I have never had a gun go off that I didn't pull the trigger on... I have never seen a gun go off that didn't have someone pulling the trigger... I have only HEARD of it happening. The handguns in my house growing up always had a full mag inserted but never one in the chamber but when my dad carried he kept it cocked and locked... by growing up I don't mean I was a child... when I was too young to know better the handguns were kept locked away.

I personally don't like to carry one in the chamber but I guess if I felt like I was in a "threatening" environment I would. In wooded areas I do keep one in the chamber because a copperhead or rattlesnake usually doesn't give you a whole lot of time to worry about drawing and racking the slide...

[Duke of Doubt]

David E: "Did you know it's physically impossible for your Beretta to fire a chambered round if it hit the concrete hammer first?"

It's not physically impossible at all. Improbable, difficult, and a few other things, but not physically impossible. Very few things are physically impossible. This isn't one of them.

"(what holster do you use that it falls out all the time?)"

It doesn't, but from experience I allow for all manner of improbable disaster.

[zombienerd]

I carry my Bersa in Condition 1. Round in chamber, safety on.

It's not going to shoot itself in the holster, ever.. Even if the safety lever was moved off.

It's how I carried in the Navy, it's what I'm used to, and it's faster to go bang if something smelly does hit the fan.


I'm not sure how I would carry other styles of pistols (revolvers, DAO, SAO, etc) I'd have to evaluate and be comfortable with the gun before I'd carry it anyway... But for a DA/SA with a Safety/Decocker, I'm always condition one without a second thought.

[JohnKSa]

It's not physically impossible at all. Improbable, difficult, and a few other things, but not physically impossible. Very few things are physically impossible. This isn't one of them.That's really splitting hairs. Which I like to do. :D

To be accurate it is physically impossible for a Beretta 92FS to go off if it is dropped on the hammer UNLESS the firing pin/firing pin safety is broken/defective or breaks due to impact.

If one were truly concerned about such an unlikely failure taking place, one could engage the manual safety. Now, in addition to the firing pin safety blocking the firing pin, there is an additional part interposed in the firing mechanism to prevent a discharge.

No, it's not completely impossible, but it is more than just highly improbable.It doesn't, but from experience I allow for all manner of improbable disaster.There are improbable disasters and there are improbable PREVENTABLE disasters. This situation falls into the latter category. Regular inspections, simple tests and proper maintenance can essentially eliminate the possibility of carrying a gun with defective/broken parts and the probability of having both safeties fail/break simultaneously is vanishingly small. Not worthy of rational concern.

A far more likely occurrence (which is definitely worthy of consideration by a person who strives to "allow for all manner of improbable disaster") is bobbling an attempt to chamber a round in an emergency. It's been my experience that manually feeding a round out of the magazine is far more likely to result in a misfeed/jam than normal firing operation. I therefore choose to do that manual operation in a no pressure situation where I can repeat it/correct it at my leisure if I bobble it.

[MCgunner]

I carry DAs, no safety, always loaded. If you're paranoid, you can carry a DAO revolver with the chamber under the hammer empty. At least that way, you don't have to do anything more than squeeze the trigger. But, DA/DAO autos, the ones with hammers and second strike capability, are quite as safe as a revolver with a chambered round and hammer down. In my mind, carrying condition three is more dangerous as you're likely to get shot if you ever need the gun. Some cheap striker fired single actions, the kind that are made out of zinc alloy, are the one real exception that I can think of, but I don't carry striker fired single actions.

[bottom shelf]

One in the pipe. My .40 only holds 5+1 so that one in the chamber gives me an extra 20%. I should prolly look for something with a better capacity. In fact, it's Saturday. I'm going shopping...

[punkndisorderly]

My go-to carry gun is my Glock 26. When I holster carry, I carry with a round in the chamber.

During the week, I carry it less than I use it as a "car gun" where it rests on the passenger seat under a towel when I'm in the car, I keep in in a chamber empty and uncocked condition (don't trust a Glock outside of a holster with a round in the chamber). Since that means losing time by having to rack the slide should I ever need to use it, I'm probably going to go to a 4" revolver for my car gun.

[WoofersInc]

I carry a 1911 most of the time and it is always cocked and locked.

[Vern Humphrey]

As Rooster Cogburn said, "If it is not loaded and cocked, it will not shoot."

That said, I developed my own holster that has "high leather," between the gun butt and your body. Mounted on this high leather backing is a "button" or cam that holds the safety lever in the safe position -- in fact, when wearing this holster you can take a cocked and unlocked (and unloaded) gun, shove it into the holster, and when you pull it out, the button will have cammed the safety lever into the locked position.

[NavyLT]

For you folks that carry chamber empty, would you also keep the first chamber on the revolver empty if you carried one? That whole, "if he takes my gun, I have a chance" thing still applies, doesn't it?

You would have to carry with two cylinders empty. The one under the hammer to prevent the AD discharge that some unloaded carriers are concerned about if the gun is dropped and the next cylinder in line to prevent the BG from shooting you on the first trigger pull when he takes the gun or to protect from the AD if the trigger is accidentally pulled. That would be the "safest" way to carry a revolver, then.

[MCgunner]

Dang, Vern, you have an idea there if there isn't already a patent on it. You could get RICH! :D Don Hume move over! Really, that's a pretty cool idea you got there.

[The Lone Haranguer]

As I've said many times, if you need a handgun badly and fast and it is essentially unloaded, it makes a poor club.

[Vern Humphrey]

You can find directions to make it at http://www.paul.desertskyone.com/vern/iwb_instructions.htm

[Geronimo45]

Loaded chamber, -1 in the mag. Except with the Beretta 21a, since it can fit the extra round in the mag. If I need to unload it for whatever reason, I don't have a loose round rolling hither and thither.

[nwilliams]

Always chamber loaded, always!

IMHO carrying without one in the chamber is incredibly stupid.

[deacon8]

In the chamber.

[Mainsail]

I keep hearing the theory that it’s safer to keep the chamber empty. Why are you carrying a handgun? If your answer is ‘self defense’ then you need to ask yourself how “safe” would it be to go through the motions of chambering a round in a high stress moment?

The gun in the holster is entirely safe regardless of how you choose to carry, in other words, no possible combinations of failure or stupidity will affect a discharge. It is only during the handling of the firearm that danger presents itself. So the question becomes, when is it safer to load the chamber? At home when you’re calm and careful, or during what is likely to be the most stressful moment of your life?

[Redhawk1]

I keep hearing the theory that it’s safer to keep the chamber empty. Why are you carrying a handgun? If your answer is ‘self defense’ then you need to ask yourself how “safe” would it be to go through the motions of chambering a round in a high stress moment?

The gun in the holster is entirely safe regardless of how you choose to carry, in other words, no possible combinations of failure or stupidity will affect a discharge. It is only during the handling of the firearm that danger presents itself. So the question becomes, when is it safer to load the chamber? At home when you’re calm and careful, or during what is likely to be the most stressful moment of your life?

I agree 100%.

[Vern Humphrey]

I keep hearing the theory that it’s safer to keep the chamber empty. Why are you carrying a handgun? If your answer is ‘self defense’ then you need to ask yourself how “safe” would it be to go through the motions of chambering a round in a high stress moment?
Somewhere around here I have a copy of a magazine with one of Sheriff Jim Wilson's Texas Ranger stories.

There was a Ranger Captain who carried an M1911 cocked and locked, Mexican Carry. One day he got into a fight, where the bad guy was on his back, choking him. He couldn't shoot the guy off because he couldn't depress the grip safety in that position. So from then on, he carried the gun stuck in his belt, with a rawhide thong holding the grip safety down.

One day the Rangers had to go to the range for qualification. The range officer looked at that M1911 (which was almost horizontal because the Captain had a magnificent "abdominal fat storage unit") and said, "Ah, Captain? Isn't that dangerous?"

And the Captain said, "Hail yes, son! I wouldn't carry the danged old thaing if it wasn't dangerous!"

[I_AM_LEGEND]

I carry a 1911 which is arguably the safest pistol in the world... no AD's here....
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[David E]

David E: "Did you know it's physically impossible for your Beretta to fire a chambered round if it hit the concrete hammer first?"

It's not physically impossible at all. Improbable, difficult, and a few other things, but not physically impossible. Very few things are physically impossible. This isn't one of them.

Then perhaps you could walk me thru the scenario where this really COULD happen. Keep in mind, we're presuming the gun and ammo are within specs, no broken parts, etc. Also, you're not allowed to do two things: state theory as "fact," or invoke anything regarding the "time-space-continuum."

"(what holster do you use that it falls out all the time?)"

It doesn't, but from experience I allow for all manner of improbable disaster.

It sounds to me that you are placing a far, far greater emphasis on baseless, speculative possibility over likely, rational probability.

I choose to focus my attentions on probabilities, as that'll serve me better in the long run.

.

[David E]

in fact, when wearing this holster you can take a cocked and unlocked (and unloaded) gun, shove it into the holster, and when you pull it out, the button will have cammed the safety lever into the locked position.

That's a good idea. KyTac (www.kytac.com) has been making their BraveHeart do that for over 10 years. Really cool !

.

[jjohnson]

OMG. First, it was the way I was trained (USAF).

Well now..... most of us who were in Combat Arms were trained otherwise, but then, most of us in Combat Arms didn't consider the Air Force to be a legitmate "military" organization.:neener:

Come to think of it, maybe having Air Force personnel with ammo at all may be seen by some of us as an inherently dangerous thing .... :scrutiny:

Yep, I do carry mine Cocked and Locked if it's a standard auto, or round in the chamber on something like a Glock. The chamber is meant to work with a round in there - leaving it empty is just wrong in my view.

Kudos to Legend for making it in picture form for those who don't "get it."

[Vern Humphrey]

That's a good idea. KyTac (www.kytac.com) has been making their BraveHeart do that for over 10 years. Really cool !

I was experimenting with mine more than 25 years ago -- and have been carrying one for at least 20.

[Matt-J2]

I carry with hammer down on an empty chamber. I could easily carry a round in the chamber, I just tend not to. Feels a little more...right. Of course, I only open carry, and even then on the farm or in the woods. Tends to be a single action revolver, as well. :neener:

[jabara572]

One in the chamber always on my SR9, safety off, aka same as a glock

I do use my safety when inserting the gun into the holster, just to stop any woops moments :rolleyes: After that, no safety

[Eightball]

Like others have stated, I carry Condition 1--because I don't know if a situation requiring my firearm will be ideal enough to allow me to have my other hand free/be able to rack the slide. My life, and the lives of those I love, deserve more than an "oh, I think I'll be able to rack the slide in time if....."

Plus, if you ever carry a revolver, it's chambered. Why should a semi-auto--with more safeties--be of any more/less concern if it's holstered and not being handled?

[Guillermo]

Every gun, if not in the safe, is fully loaded, round in the chute, ready to go.

While safeties can fail, I never put my finger into the guard of any gun until I am ready to fire.

[SHusky57]

How much force does a primer require from the firing pin to cause a discharge? On other word, could I take a hammer to a Sig and beat the bloody hell out of it and it still wouldn't fire? Obviously, taking a hammer to a modern DA firearm would be too costly and dangerous for me to "try at home" but anyone know?

[SCKimberFan]

Is there any other way???

[David E]

Is there any other way???

People have told me they carry a 1911 cocked and locked with an EMPTY chamber........for "safety" reasons.

I can see where it does make it safer.........................
























for the badguy!

[Walkalong]

Carry on my person loaded, and one short in the mag. Carry in my car without one in the chamber sometimes. Hide out gun is full mag only, none in the chamber, usually. Revolvers are always full of course.

[Mat, not doormat]

Loaded, unless there's a convincing reason otherwise. Specifically, an SAA, without a transfer bar.

~~~Mat

[Vern Humphrey]

How much force does a primer require from the firing pin to cause a discharge? On other word, could I take a hammer to a Sig and beat the bloody hell out of it and it still wouldn't fire?
The issue isn't firing pin force -- modern safety systems work on the assuption that any force is too much. That's why things like transfer bars and so on are used that positively prevent contact between hammer and firing pin until the trigger is pulled.

The firing pin lock systems on some M1911s sold today are another example -- even though the hammer is held off the firing pin, dropping the gun on the muzzle might generate enough force for the firing pin to overcome the firing pin spring and touch the hammer.

[Moccw]

Loaded, Thats why!

[SHusky57]

The issue isn't firing pin force -- modern safety systems work on the assuption that any force is too much. That's why things like transfer bars and so on are used that positively prevent contact between hammer and firing pin until the trigger is pulled.


Is there any way to break the transfer bar?

[Deanimator]

Loaded chamber, ALWAYS.

The odds are that if I need to shoot somebody, they're not going to cooperate with my requests to desist until I can chamber a round.

I don't want to try to chamber a round and wrestle with somebody or try to keep them from stabbing me at the same time. I just want to shoot them. I'm a "simple solutions to simple problems" kind of guy.

I wouldn't carry a firearm that's not safe to carry with a loaded chamber.

[Vern Humphrey]

Is there any way to break the transfer bar?
Yes, there is. But transfer bars are true Fail Safe systems -- when the bar is broken, the gun cannot fire.

The hammer face in such system is made like an upside down L. The arm of the L hits the frame above the firing pin and the "belly" of the hammer is held off the firing pin.

When the trigger is pulled, the transfer bar moves up and covers the end of the firing pin, and the hammer "belly" hits the transfer bar, which transfers the impact to the firing pin.

If the transfer bar is broken, it can't function and the gun can't fire.

[Guillermo]

all of the worry about safeties is really kind of silly. If you practice proper gun habits, you could carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked safely.

Among the rules are Always use proper gun leather and Never put your finger into the trigger guard until you are ready to fire.

[grimjaw]

Curious, for all those who carry with an empty chamber.

If you carried a revolver, would you carry with the hammer down on an empty chamber, or would your first trigger pull land the hammer on an empty chamber?

jm

[David E]

The firing pin lock systems on some M1911s sold today are another example -- even though the hammer is held off the firing pin, dropping the gun on the muzzle might generate enough force for the firing pin to overcome the firing pin spring and touch the hammer.

I believe you meant to say, "primer," in case anyone was confused.

.

[RoboDuck]

1911 cocked and locked.

[woad_yurt]

A gun with an empty chamber is not ready for use. I keep one in the chamber just in case I meet up with that very rare type of aggressor, an impatient one.

[Eightball]

Curious, for all those who carry with an empty chamber.

If you carried a revolver, would you carry with the hammer down on an empty chamber, or would your first trigger pull land the hammer on an empty chamber?I often wonder the same thing about the people who profess that Israeli Carry's the thing to do.

[Hungry Seagull]

I am one rack away with the M&P .45 ACP Cylinder empty. I dont think any number of idiot moves or drops will cause the gun to fire on that empty.

I enjoy shooting on the range, but when the round is "UP" and the gun is hot, the heart rate goes up a bit no matter how comfortable I am with the thing. Ice blooded Im not.

It would probably get me dead if a BG pull one already loaded. If he knows Ive got one somewhere on me.

[Mike the Wolf]

Ruger P90 with one in the pipe, hammer down, safety on. This is the proper way to carry this pistol, as the safety is a decocker. Carrying hammer down, safety off would also be acceptable, although in this condition the gun could possibly fire if dropped on the hammer.

[David E]

I am one rack away with the M&P .45 ACP Cylinder empty. I dont think any number of idiot moves or drops will cause the gun to fire on that empty.

You mean, CHAMBER. Yes, there is a distinct and important difference.

If you're talking keeping your range guns chamber empty at the range until you're ready to shoot, that's one thing, as the target doesn't care how long it takes you to make that first shot.

Carrying your DEFENSIVE handgun chamber empty is quite another, as that target WILL care how fast you can get that all important first shot off.

.

[Hungry Seagull]

Right, thank you for the correction.

I will evaluate my weapons safety features and see where I may avoid trouble with one in the chamber.

[GregGry]

My opinion is that carrying with the chamber empty is a poor excuse for firearm safety. Everyone that I know that does such a thing tends to either have poor weapon handling skills, or they are overzealous/don't understand firearm safety. The same people often want a stiff trigger much like a DA trigger on a revolver because they are "safer".

I have been in the closest thing to a actual shootout, aka simunition training. I went through a sudden assault scenario and had I left my chamber empty I would have wasted seconds extra (when it already took me a few seconds to respond to the threat due to the shock of the sudden assault). Not to mention your fine motor skills go out the window when your in the fight or flight response. I would not trust myself to be able to rack the slide and get a round chambered without the potential to cause a jam. All it would take is riding the slide a little bit to long and you might cause a jam.

I wish everyone could go through the experience I did, because I think after you saw a video of your delayed reaction, fumbling with the gun to get a round in the chamber, then shooting, you might see how much better it would be to carry one in the pipe. Modern guns are safe with one in the chamber. Even more so when you use a holster which will make it hard to put your booger hook on the bang switch, (thus making it even safer for you if you have poor weapon safety skills).

I might get some slack for saying this but here it goes. I think that many people that keep their guns unloaded for “safety” are inherently unsafe with firearms. I have met too many people that grab their guns and handle them poorly since “they know they are safe” because they don’t ever put ammo in them unless they are on the range. They seem to rely on the fact they don’t remember putting ammo in the chamber as a substitution to checking the chamber to see if its loaded. Such people often rely on heavy trigger pulls, installation of manual safeties on guns that never came with them, long trigger pulls, and every other doodad to make the gun “less capable of firing if the trigger is pulled”. I have news for such people, installing a manual safety, a push trigger safety, never loading one in the chamber unless your on the range, keeping the ammo in a different room, etc to your glock is not going to make it any safer if you have poor safety then just handling a unmodified one properly.

You can find someone who has NDed any firearm out there regardless of how many safeties are on the gun. It always comes down to someone pulling the trigger when there is a round in the chamber.

[cjranucci]

This conversation has a lot of great points being made. The fact remains though, that I do not feel comfortable carrying my Glock with a round in the chamber. So you say that I should not own a gun, I have no business carrying, well that is your opinion. If I had a 1911, I would probably carry with one in the chamber. Having a Glock, I don't want to take that risk. Isn't it my decision anyway?

[I_AM_LEGEND]

sorry cjranucci, I have to.... LOL
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh131/seven_sixtwo/Motivational%20Posters/motivator2090987ccaf0ee4379e79c5263.jpg

[jerkface11]

Maybe you guys who want to carry on an empty chamber should buy a Jo Lo Ar. They're Spanish pistols modified so you can work the slide one handed. There is a similar Chinese pistol but I forgot the name of it.

[deadhawg]

If I ever need to use my pistol, I will most likely need it RIGHT NOW! I carry with a round in the chamber and a full magazine. I use a good quality holster. I have never had my pistol fall out. I practice drawing my pistol regularly. I practice good muzzle and trigger control. I have practiced weak hand draws and one handed racking the slide. It's not easy in practice, and in a high stress life threatening situation it won't be any easier.

You are, of course, entitled to do as you think best, but I believe that fraction of a second it takes to rack the slide might cost you dearly.

[cjranucci]

@I AM LEGEND - That is funny. I can appreciate the humor.

[I_AM_LEGEND]

Here's a pistol for the empty chamber guys, one trigger to rack the slide, the other to fire it.... The m-77B. Good luck with that.
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/images/M-77B-450px.jpg

[orionhawk]

condition one, unless it's in the safe. that's for a Glock 35 house gun, a Springfield Armory TRP carry/housegun, and a Springfield XD subcompact carry gun. I assume I will only have one hand available to respond to a deadly threat (two is one, one is none. Navy Engineering training. and yes, I do carry a backup gun).

[jerkface11]

Yup that's the Chinese pistol I was thinking of. The Spanish ones are much classier though.

[ironvic]

I carry a S&W 686 Plus, 2.5" barrel in Spring, summer and fall. Always loaded-all chambers, inside the pocket. In winter, I often carry a Sig P-226 9mm in the front pocket and go unloaded chamber. It's grip sticks proud of the pocket, so I use a polar fleece pull-over to hide the thing. Next year, though, I think I'll go chamber loaded on the Sig. From surveillance camera footage so prevalent these days (scary thought...), it's very obvious that you often simply have no time other than to immediately bear the weapon and fire.

Just my thoughts and what works for me. Each person must carry within his or her own comfort zone. Like others have written here, use only top quality, proven and reliable equipment.

[GregGry]

This conversation has a lot of great points being made. The fact remains though, that I do not feel comfortable carrying my Glock with a round in the chamber. So you say that I should not own a gun, I have no business carrying, well that is your opinion. If I had a 1911, I would probably carry with one in the chamber. Having a Glock, I don't want to take that risk. Isn't it my decision anyway?

When have you heard of a glock firing when the trigger wasn't pulled? The training officers I work with have trained thousands of people with the glock weapon system, and they have never had someone ND other when they pulled the trigger themselves without checking the chamber first. I have never read of a story of a glock just going off.

On the glock weapon system the firing pin is roughly half cocked, and there is a firing pin block that only is removed once the trigger is pulled. Installing a manual safety isn't going to do anything but make it impossible to pull the trigger. That doesn't change how you should handle the gun, or really make it any safer in my opinion. When the gun is properly holstered the manual safety is keeping the trigger protected from being pulled, which shouldn't be an issue since you shouldn't be able to have something pull the trigger when it is in a holster. There is already a firing pin block that will keep the gun from firing if there is some sort of failure mechanically. In the event of a mechanical failure a manual safety isn't going to keep the gun from firing either.

Essentially all the manual conversion is a extra sort of failsafe that might keep you from NDing if you have poor weapon handling. If you grab your gun and point it around when its loaded (and never bother to clear it), put your finger on the trigger, then the safety will help prevent you from pulling the trigger. However your relying on a device to keep you safe, instead of good gun handling skills (and clearing the gun every time you pick it up) is not the answer. People could and would ND a gun with 10 manual safeties. Which is why I am a advocate of clearing the weapon every time you pick it up. You should also not rely on the safety to properly keep the trigger from being pulled, aka don't handle the gun in a manner that puts things inside the trigger guard. People should not consider any gun "safe" when the safety is on as well. Handle any gun with the same care you would give a cocked 1911 with a light short trigger pull that has no manual safety, and you will be fine.

Now some guns that lack internal safeties such as firing pin blocks, have hammers that have to be fully cocked inorder to fire, and light short trigger pulls should have a manual safety in my opinion. Especially in cases where gun designs don't take the fact the gun could get tossed around into consideration (or firearm designs that use the manual safety to engage/disengage internal failsafes other just making a trigger pull impossible). Mechanical failures have happened but with most modern guns with a firing pin block its going to be near impossible for the gun to go off.

[cjranucci]

You make some good points, but my argument is based on peace of mind. In the off chance that in a struggle I grab the gun wrong from my IWB holster and pull the trigger, I will carry with an empty chamber.

Now adding a manual safety would allow me to feel comfortable with a round in the chamber. No matter what your argument, those only take a fraction of a second to disable and, with practice, become second nature.

Again, it is my opinion and my choice, though I do respect everyone's input here.

[Vern Humphrey]

Disengaging a manual safety takes no time at all, since it is done while doing other things.

I train to bring my .45 up with thumbs overlapping on the safety, finger indexed beside the trigger guard. As the sights come on, I simply close my hand, disengaging the safety lock as the trigger finger presses the trigger.

[Hungry Seagull]

My gun is clearly marked "Capable of firing with magazine removed" There is nothing on the gun that will safe it internally. If it is in the holster, the trigger rides ok, but nothing should get onto the trigger itself.

I have much respect for the handgun and choose to carry chamber empty.

However, after I get the CCW, it's going to be one in the chamber with half an eye on that holster at all times.

I wonder if it's possible to find a insert that sort of sits between trigger and buttgrip that you can kick out with a thumb when drawing. Or perhaps even falling out on it's own as a final safegaurd.

Ive seen way too many idiots shoot feet after shoving hand guns in belt.

[David E]

The fact remains though, that I do not feel comfortable carrying my Glock with a round in the chamber.

If I had a 1911, I would probably carry with one in the chamber. Having a Glock, I don't want to take that risk.

This makes absolutely NO sense to me.

If one type of gun makes you nervous carrying chamber loaded, but another type of gun does NOT....

Then why in the world would you choose the one that makes you nervous ??!?! :confused:

.

[David E]

Ive seen way too many idiots shoot feet after shoving hand guns in belt.

Never SHOVE the gun in the holster.....especially if your finger is still on the trigger ! (probably the cause of 99+% of the ND's upon holstering)

If you MUST carry a Glock and are uncomfortable carrying chamber loaded, then take a look at one of these:

http://www.clipdraw.com/store/index.php?rn=396&action=show_detail

[claiborne]

Wow is this getting beat to death.
My US Navy training as part of the ship's self defense force, security alert team and roving security patrol, (for those TLAMs in the forward Mk41 VLS) was: a GI issue 1911 carried without a magazine inserted and 3 magazines of five rounds each in magazine pouches.
I always thought this odd.
While in an active war theater (Persian Gulf, Red Sea, Eastern Med) said 1911 pistol was carried with a magazine inserted, no round chambered.
I was fortunate to be on one of the last ships that still had M-14s and 1911s while most of the militarty had gone to Berettas and M-16s.
My experiences have lead me always to carry a 1911 cocked and locked as the original designer intended the weapon to be brought into use. Three safeties are repetitious and more than adequate.
I am in agreement that most military weapons regulations are intended to keep idiots in check, not because proper weapon handling will prevent an accidental discharge.
There are some things you just can not teach a man, that is why the US Navy has Yeomen...............

[GregGry]

Now adding a manual safety would allow me to feel comfortable with a round in the chamber. No matter what your argument, those only take a fraction of a second to disable and, with practice, become second nature.

You realize that under stress when you draw the gun you might disable the safety soon enough that you have the potential to shoot yourself if your finger is on the trigger. If you properly train to draw from a holster I don't see how anything could be on the trigger (Aka your finger or anything else) thus the gun wont fire. The glock will only fire when the trigger is pulled. Its trigger pull isn't that light or 1911 style short pull. You shouldn't feel that comfortable carrying any gun on your person, by that I mean don't get complacent. When you draw you keep your finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard until you have the muzzle pointing to the threat. When you holster you do it in a controlled manner with your finger off the trigger, and making sure there isn't anything that is going to catch in the trigger guard. Again installation of a manual safety doesn't mean you should handle it any different then if it didn't have one. Not to mention if your relying on a manual safety to keep from NDing because you are careless with holstering/handling, then maybe you should take a class on firearm safety.

Again since the manual safety doesn't make the gun any safer when its holstered (aka nothing can press the trigger anyway when it is in a holster) its really only for when its out of the holster. And in that case its very easy to keep your finger off the trigger and keep other things from pulling the trigger. If you aren't comfortable with the way a glock operates I would suggest you seek training, or a different gun (even more so since the manual safety add on is more of something that promotes complacency in my opinion)

[cjranucci]

This makes absolutely NO sense to me.

If one type of gun makes you nervous carrying chamber loaded, but another type of gun does NOT....

Then why in the world would you choose the one that makes you nervous ??!?!


Obviously this is because a 1911 has an external safety away from the trigger while the Glock does not. The reason that I purchased a Glock is that is the gun I wanted at the price I wanted. If I would carry a 1911, it would be a Kimber, but I don't have an extra grand laying around now. In the future I probably will buy the Kimber, but I am happy with the Glock 30 as a first handgun. Does that answer your question?