[SnakeLogan]

The gunstore was all out of 2 3/4 00 buck (what I usually buy) so I bought some 2 3/4 000 buck. Anyone else use this load for home defense?

[KevinAbbeyTech]

000 Buck is an over-penetration risk indoors.
I don't even like 00 for HD.
Outside in a sparsely populated area, it's no problem.

I would prefer something smaller such as No. 1 for HD.

Just curious, what brand did you buy?

[geronimo509]

I used to. I would go back and forth between 00 and 000. However, as my 2 year old son becomes more and more curious and gained the ability to enter and exit his room at will i have changed my ammo to 7 1/2 shot for the first 4 rounds. The last 2 shots are 00 buckshot. My reason is the 7 1/2 shot are less likely to penetrate his room wall and cause serious damage. Now if the first 4 shots of that doesnt put the BG down or keep him down, then, at least, I should be in a better position or a safer one to make sure my son doesnt go wondering around. Thats when I will use the 00 to make sure the BG stays down if he is still a threat. All in all, I do not believe that either of the two loads(00 or 000) will make a huge difference in the outcome of a close range shot. You all can correct me if I am terribly mistaken.

[rcmodel]

I would agree that the risk of over-penetration damage is greater then with 00 Buck.

I had the experience of seeing what a 00-Buck load will do at 10-15 yards while in the service.

An escaping prisoner was climbing the stockade fence when a guard shot him in the back with a riot gun.

At the autopsy, they found all nine 00 Buckshot inside the guys T-shirt & BDU shirt on the off side down around his belt line.

Complete body penetration, but so little remaining energy left the two shirts stopped them all.

I imagine 000 Buck would have made it on through.

rc

[SnakeLogan]

Just curious, what brand did you buy?

Federal

BTW does anyone have a pic of 000 in ballistic gel? I've seen 00, but I'm curious how many inches of penetration the 000 would get.

[rcmodel]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFBITest32.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFBITest3.html

rc

[SnakeLogan]

^Thanks, but I was wondering about 000 in bare gel.

[Big Bill]

12 Gauge Shotgun

Typical terminal effects from a 12 gauge shotgun firing buckshot

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page484.htm

Remington Express 2 3/4” 00 magnum buckshot

Among the largest bore of shotguns that can be fired off of the shoulder, the 12 gauge shotgun has been dominating close-in shooting situations for well over 100 years. It is also among the cheapest of shotguns to buy ammunition for, since it accounts for over half of the shotgun ammunition and guns sold yearly in the United States.

Using buckshot with this caliber, it is a near certainty that a hit to the thoracic cavity with all pieces of shot will rapidly incapacitate the target. Most people shot with handguns survive : most people shot with shotguns do not.

[Mike U.]

I haven't seen Ballistic gel test results using 000 buck, but I certainly would love to see some if anyone has a link. NOT 00 but 000. I imagine most have seen the BG results with 00 buck.

I'd love to see Brassfetcher do this as his testing is quite well done and compelling.

[rcmodel]

The second link I posted in #6 is 000 Buckshot.

rc

[Jorg]

You may want to see how it patterns. I've never found a 000 load that patterns nearly as well as the some of the better 00 loads.

[Hungry Seagull]

We cannot use any kind of scatter inside our home. One wall is thinly protecting a water heater and Heat/AC system run by natural gas plus a stove. On the opposite end of the engagement zone is a house breaker box for electric service.

The scatter will most certainly create a danger on several levels including fire, gas and steam type sitautions.

That is one reason we made the decision to stick with slugs and laser dot.

Now.

I understand the pattern at 20 feet or less will probably all go into the BG, but we cannot take a chance. We both tend to lean a bit lefty shootie and there is just way too much danger on that side. Nothing we can do about it.

What is worse, there is sufficient metal around the home that some of the scatter stuff will most certainly come flying straight back for our eyes, or other important body areas. We must not risk back scatter damage. There is going to be enough from the slug as it is.

Now if we had a second floor with nothing but wood frame and dry wall... sure. scatter the place and blast the bad guy. Drywall is cheap, trauma is expensive. But in our situation, slugs is a better choice.

[rcmodel]

we made the decision to stick with slugs and laser dot.Well I tell you what.

A slug that hits the BG is way more likely to put a hole right through the BG and continue on through a wall or two.

You would be far safer with a laser and any smaller buckshot.

You don't get enough "scatter" at room distance to miss any worse then with a slug, and they will run out of energy inside the BG, not the wall behind him.

In your situation, or most any other HD situations, slugs are the most dangerous choice you can make due to excess penetration!

rc

[Hungry Seagull]

Understand you loud and clear. Penetration is not a issue as we have a bit of land and none of the slugs are expected to reach anyone else's homes or property.

I will definatly continue to explore double and triple oughts. Just because I take strong position doesnt mean it's set in stone. We will see how it goes.

Who knows? I might learn something and like it at 10 yards =)

Cheers.

[rcmodel]

How is penetration not an issue because you own a bit land?

You said:
The scatter will most certainly create a danger on several levels including fire, gas and steam type sitautions.

I think you said you had this stuff in the walls of your house????
Not in the walls of the neighbors house!

Heres more:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

rc

[Hungry Seagull]

RC, does the FBI Test links posted earlier indicate distance from shooter through the metal into the gel block?

I examined both links and find them very educational.

[rcmodel]

The 2 3/4" test he says the shot was fired at 10 feet from the muzzle to the steel plate.

I would say it's a pretty safe bet they both were.

Heres another one for a 2 3/4" rifled slug:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html

rc

[KenW.]

My employer requires 000 rather than 00 for our patrol units. The firearms comittee found the 000 patterned better than the 00.

We d ohave the option (through a select-slug drill) to quickly choose to send a 1 oz slug downrange.

[-v-]

My take, anything that punches deep enough into a BG to cause them to stop will over-penetrate. There are no such things as magic bullets, only good aim and ammunition selection. I currently load 00-buck for HD, but I would prefer 000-buck if I could find it locally.

[TAB]

I would agree that the risk of over-penetration damage is greater then with 00 Buck.

I had the experience of seeing what a 00-Buck load will do at 10-15 yards while in the service.

An escaping prisoner was climbing the stockade fence when a guard shot him in the back with a riot gun.

At the autopsy, they found all nine 00 Buckshot inside the guys T-shirt & BDU shirt on the off side down around his belt line.

Complete body penetration, but so little remaining energy left the two shirts stopped them all.


rc



that sounds like perfect ammount of penatration to me. All the way thru and falls on the floor on the other side.

[rcmodel]

Yep!
Thats what I thought too.

Thats why 00 Buck is the prefered choice for a home defense load.

And police use.

And about any other use where Buckshot is called for.

rc

[JShirley]

A slug that hits the BG is way more likely to put a hole right through the BG and continue on through a wall or two.

RC, really? Is this something you've tested, seen reliable data on, or that you just "know"?

Here (http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html)is a gel test of a Federal slug. Remember that penetration in gel is a bit more than penetration in actual tissue.

Here (http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gauge2.75inchmag.html)is a test of 2 3/4" 00 buck from the same site...You will notice that the buck was fired through layers of denim before it hit the gel, and actually exited the block after 16".

In other words, what people "know" about 00 buckshot and slug penetration is wrong. A full-power soft slug expands or fragments at close range, making it penetrate less. Reduced recoil slugs typically do not, and penetrate like the dickens.

[rcmodel]

Well, I know a rifled slug will generally shoot through & splinter a very hard hedge fence post, and 00 Buck won't.

I know they will very often shoot through a 200 pound deers chest cavity, and 00 buck often won't.

Can't tell you what they do in ballistic gel, as I have never shot any of it.

Just fence posts & deer.

rc

[JShirley]

How close were the deer? I completely shot through a nice buck with a reduced recoil slug. I remember reading about a test done using various rounds on brown bear skulls some years ago. Some of the more powerful rounds were less effective at short range, because the bullets couldn't withstand the impact without fragmenting.

The point being, I would expect a lot more penetration from a full-power Foster slug at 25 meters or more, than I would at 5 meters.

I don't use buckshot for anything.

[robsc]

I have shot several deer with a 12ga using 2 3/4in. 000 buckshot. I have yet to see -(have never seen) any of the pellets go completely thru and exit the opposite side. Over penetration can only happen if you MISS your target. 00 buckshot and #4 buckshot have more pellets and could be more apt to go thru wall IF part of the shot pattern misses the target.
000 buckshot has nine .36 or .38 caliber pellets. The shot pattern stays very close together. The wad encasing the pellets will also be dangerous for the BG on the receiving end.

[Jack2427]

Couple of opinions: 1. Birdshot is for birds. It will create a shallow surface wound that will bleed but generally not incapacate, unless fired at contact range and the shot column acts like a single projectile.
2. Mixing loads in a magazine is a very very bad idea. The legal aftermath of any SD shooting does not stop with the criminal investigation, in which the good guy is usally exonerated(if he acted legally and in good faith), but with the civil suit that WILL ensue later. At that point you will be asked about the loads you used, and no matter which load was up first you will have a hard time telling about how birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot, but you used buck nevertheless, or vice versa. That is of course is if you can remember under the stress of an actuasl shooting which round was where in the mag. This is why every major LE agency and the military specifically prohibit mixing of loads in the mag. Some even prohibit the carrying of different loads on the person of the shooter. This is to keep things tidy for the legal aftermath. If a pro carries more than one load (almost always slugs and buckshot) he is very careful not to mix loads in the gun.
The concept of having buck for up close and slugs for use as the range opens is never a good idea for the HD shooter, because if the range is opening, then the danger is almost always diminishing and his right to use lethal force is also diminishing.
As stated above the spread of buck at HD ranges is minimal-this is why you CAN miss with your shotgun! Unless you live in a real mansion, you are never going to get more than a 12-18" spread indoors.
I have used all kinds of buck-including 0000(thats right 4 zeros) in my Browning BPS 10 gauge 3.5" magnum modified for tactical use. I prefer either #4 buck or 00 buck. For indoors I use #4 , inside my boat I use #1 buck, and if outdoors is a consideration it is 00. I would use 0000 buck outdoors in my 10 gauge, but as the gun holds only 4 rounds, and I can usually only get off 2 of them before I chicken out from either recoil or flash, I stick to 12 gauge. I did buy a box of 3.5" magnum slugs, I still have 23 of them left. And I won't be shooting them anytime soon unless I am manning a road block and expecting an armored vehicle.
Think about it, birdshot is intended for critters weighing how much? Buckshot is intended for critters weighing about the same as a human. Expect results accordingly.

[Hungry Seagull]

Jack2427, 3 inch magnum slugs from winchester produces a hell of a kick, a firestorm and a solid smack onto that back wall of the indoor range. Believe it or not, there are even larger loads availible in slug form with greater energy. The recoil at about 1750 fps is about all I can handle without being blown down. But, for some stupid reason, I find it FUN.

But I fear certain rounds might be capable of spalling through the back wall of the range, and Im not going to try to shoot those. The ballistics involve have numbers very high in value with enormous forces involved.

However, when giggles wear off and I consider ammunition in the house, triple ooo or double ought plus nuetered slugs are going to do the work just fine.

Fair warning though for those who never fired magnum slugs, you are going to have your senses stunned and stagger a bit. Either you will never fire another one again or you learn to absorb the blow and stay on target. There is no shame.

However. That being said, the rifle folks firing large long guns are no slouches either, it's just interesting when they see me with a shottie and feel the blast several bays over. I try to keep several empty bays between the mag rounds and any other shooter.

Those things leave channels through gel so large and long, it is right to feel a tinge of fear when you see something like that being tested.

[Mike U.]

rcmodel,
THANK YOU!
I thought I'd seen everything on Brassfetcher's site.
Can't imagine how I missed that, but, oh well. At least I know now why I'm not a detective. :D
Thank you again as I'd been wanting to see testing results on 000 for quite awhile.

[CSA 357]

i like # 4 buck in my house gun, it shoots it better, and theres more of them

[MotorOilMcCall]

I use BB, or BBB... Like others have said, buck is liable to penetrate walls you don't want it too.

[orionhawk]

I use double-ought. 12-ga developed its reputation as a man-stopper based on 00 BUckshot in a 2-3/4in shell at full standard velocity.

specifically, I use Winchester Military shells (from MidwayUSA), a standard 00 load in a dark green hull with black metal.

[mongo4567]

I have #4 for use in the house, I would be worried about over penetration with 00.

[Girodin]

but with the civil suit that WILL ensue later.

I am happy to live in a state where one can not sue for injury recieved in the comission of a felony.

I agree that mixing loads is a bad practice. I have 00 reduced recoil buckshot and a spare (box) mag of slugs. It has plenty of power to do its job at any distane in my house and with my circumstances over pentration is not a huge concern.