Post-expiration C&R guns


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ChronoCube
February 21, 2009, 03:06 AM
There's lots of information on the net about what you can and can't do when you have a C&R license. For example, you have to keep it at your residence, you can't make money off of it, etc. But not much about what happens to after your C&R license expires. Do any rules apply to the C&R guns after expiration ? E.g. can I sell for a substantial profit when the license expires?

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rickomatic
February 21, 2009, 03:42 PM
When your driver's license expires, if you don't renew it you can not drive to your heart's content. :D

My $ .02

jwr747
February 21, 2009, 04:48 PM
it don't say "you can't sell" it says "you can't be in the business" you can sell to "enhance your collection". you can buy two-fers or five-fers or case fulls. pick out the best and sell the rest. if you buying and selling every week or month,the ATF may/will give you a visit. jwr

Mike OTDP
February 21, 2009, 05:17 PM
You're free & clear.

Ringer
February 21, 2009, 06:19 PM
I've wondered the same thing. Obviously you can't buy guns with it and you lose your discounts. Aside from the selling question what about record keeping on guns you bought with the C&R license and still own?

Mojo-jo-jo
February 21, 2009, 06:54 PM
You can sell a firearm at a substantial profit whether your C&R license is currently valid or not. C&R rules certainly don't prohibit you from selling guns you bought with your C&R. They only prohibit operating as a firearms dealer. Consider two scenarios:

1. You are especially interested in cold-war era European firearms. You see that a wholesaler has Yugo M59/66s on sale. You purchase two via mail-order with your C&R. Upon receipt, you find that one is especially desirable for your collection, however the other is a mixmaster and/or does not help you improve your collection. You keep the most valuable for your collection and sell the second to one of your friends that is also interested in firearms, but is not interested in maintaining a serious collection--he is simply an avid shooter. Your friend thinks that the M59/66 is especially cool looking and the local shops want $450+ for one. You only paid $299. You sell it to your friend for $400. Your friend gets a good deal and you covered your shipping costs on the rifles and have enough left over to add a shelf to your display case. Are you acting as a dealer in this case? Hardly. You are a collector and improving your collection. Making a profit on a one-off sale does not constitute being a dealer.

2. You order a crate of Mosin Nagant M44s for $49 each with your C&R. You rent a table at a gun show in the "collectors" area and sell all the rifles to passers by. Are you acting as a dealer? Cleary, yes. This is not permissible with a C&R license and is clearly illegal. Frankly, this behavior will get you thrown out of most gun shows.

Otherwise, no special rules apply to the guns. Valid license or not, they are part of your personal collection. You may dispose of them as you wish (assuming you follow any other laws pertinent). If your license is currently in force, you must log the sale in your bound book. Frankly, I would log the sale of any firearm with the same information required in a bound book and supply/keep a copy of a signed bill of sale regardless of whether you have a C&R or not, simply to protect yourself.

SaxonPig
February 21, 2009, 07:01 PM
The problem lies in the fact that the ATF has NEVER defined what constitutes being "engaged in the business." This is for a reason, so they can accuse you of being an unlicensed dealer at their whim without any stated guideline.

ChronoCube
February 21, 2009, 09:12 PM
Thanks for the replies.

The problem lies in the fact that the ATF has NEVER defined what constitutes being "engaged in the business." This is for a reason, so they can accuse you of being an unlicensed dealer at their whim without any stated guideline.
Going back to my original question, this will not be a problem at all once the C&R expires right? E.g. I buy a crate of Mosins with my C&R, it expires, and I get a table at a gun show afterwards.

Mojo-jo-jo
February 21, 2009, 11:04 PM
Going back to my original question, this will not be a problem at all once the C&R expires right? E.g. I buy a crate of Mosins with my C&R, it expires, and I get a table at a gun show afterwards.

No. You can't act as a firearms dealer without a type 1 or 2 FFL. Selling firearms from your personal collection to another individual in accordance with all state and federal laws is one thing. Purchasing firearms in quantity for intention of resale is something else entirely.

The purpose of the "engaging in business" verbiage is to prevent people from using C&R licenses to act as firearms dealers (ie. buying a case of Mosins well below market price and reselling them at a gun show). It is not intended to prevent individuals from engaging in normal collecting activities--including selling and trading items from their personal collection.

SaxonPig
February 21, 2009, 11:27 PM
That's my point. They have never said how many guns you can sell without a license. If they become aware of you going to shows and selling guns they may charge you with dealing W/O an FFL. They do it sometimes, but you never know how many sales will draw their attention.

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