9mm gets no respect...why?

[rl2669]

I know that in general the 9mm parabellum cartridge is controversial as a viable self defense calibre. Many on this forum and elsewhere prefer the 45 ACP and will perhaps settle for the 40 S&W. In fact, many times I feel like the 9mm is considered a barely adequate

Help me understand one thing though - the 357 magnum is near the top of everyone's list as a potent manstopper. And the 9x19 is almost exactly the same calibre (.356), and with proper loading (e.g. +p or +p+) should be comparable in velocity to the 357 mag. Assuming that the projectile designs are comparable, it seems that 9mm should be a good load for self defense.

Comments?

[XD9WBT]

If you feel that the 9mm has no stopping power I invite you to get one of your buds to shoot you in the chest at from point blank to 10 yds. It will kill you just as fast as the others. Old boring argument.

[RedneckCopsWife]

I thought having a 9MM wouldn't be that great as I love the Glock. But I was wrong. I couldn't believe how well it shot for the first time and how accurate it was. I still like my G27 but my Springfield is amazing!

[heavyshooter]

I think the bad reputation is based on the poor performance of the full metal jacket 9mm. The round will go through the target without transfering much energy; making it a very poor self defense round. But the advances in bullet tech has resulted in a viable self defense round. An expanding 9mm is pretty effective. However, the advances have been applied to the bullets that start with "4" as well. Which keeps the 9mm behind the curve. Essentially, the thing that made the 9mm good has made the .45 acp great. So we still shun the 9mm in spite of the fact that it has more than adequate stopping power. This is my guess. Maybe someone will repair my post.

[Old Fuff]

You have to understand that in this country many of our males are... well... very macho. To them the ideal pocket gun is an aluminum & plastic Ruger Alaskan, chambered in .454 Casull.

The only justifiable reason to carry a .45 is because they don't make a .50, or better yet, a .55 ACP.

If anyone is caught with anything smaller they are automatically dead, and if it's a 9mm they're even deader.

The only acceptable excuse for carrying a 9mm is if it has a magazine capacity of over 25 rounds. That way you can do double, triple and quadruple taps without having to reload. It’s just like old B-grade western movies, except better.

The problem with the .357 Magnum is that it’s a revolver cartridge, normally used in guns that only hold 5 or 6 rounds, although there are exceptions.

One advantage of the 9mm is that usually you can find inexpensive military surplus ammunition to plink and play with. That’s enough to interest me, but frankly – I don’t get into near as many gunfights as some of our members seem to.

:what: :neener: :evil: :D

[Youngster]

As well as marginal FMJ/nonexpanded performance the 9mm seems to have the highest percentage of marginal JHP loads available out of any of the duty calibers.

[Boba Fett]

I love the 9mm, but I don't carry it. I carry 45. But that isn't to say that you should feel under gunned if you don't.

My reason for carrying JHP 45 is because if the 45 doesn't expand, it is still a 45. If the 9mm JHP doesn't expand, it is 9mm and, as heavyshooter mentioned about the FMJ 9mm, it could just go straight through.

That said, the trade off is that I don't get to carry as many rounds. Instead of the 15+ that some of the 9mm guns can carry, I'm limited to 7 in my SIG P220.

So I trade quantity of rounds for increased stopping potential. Key word there is "potential," not guarantee. None of these rounds are guaranteed instant stoppers. And as I said, I wouldn't feel like I was under gunned with a 9mm. Heck, I carry 380 in my P3AT when I'm not able to carry my P220 and I don't feel like I'd "lose the battle" simply because I wasn't carrying my 45.


Whichever round you carry, practice with it often enough to make sure you will shoot it well enough should you ever need to defend yourself.

[Javelin]

Got to have something to complain about and make up stories to sell gun magazines.

Seriously though, the 9mm got a bad rap due to the use of 115gr FMJ Ball ammo rounds that the military uses. Any civilian can buy SD grade JPH full power LE 9mm rounds and they are most definitely lethal.

And as far as I am concerned the 9mm is the best pistol cartridge ever made. Shooting both 124 and 147gr ammo. It can be suppressed especially well and carries enough power to be used in any environment and platform from a submachine gun, AR carbines, to pistols, subcompacts, and even revolvers. There are very few cartridges that are as diverse as the 9mm.

:)

[TIMC]

My carry guns are pretty evenly split between 9mm and .45 acp. I carry one or the other depending on where I'm going and mood. I think the 9mm is just fine for defense. Reliability and ability to hit what you want is more necessary than caliber.

[unspellable]

Dirty little secret: NO hard ball load is a good stopper. The fabled 45 ACP is hardly any better then the 9 mm Parabellum when both are loaded with hardball. The 45 Revolver, (A cartridge oddly lost to history!) the 45 Colt, and the 30-40 Krag all proved to have disappointing performance against the Moros in the Philippines but all you ever hear about are the failures of the 38 Colt.

The 357 Magnum produces more velocity than the 9 mm Parabellum and given good expanding loads will out perform it.

Under ideal conditions with the right choice of expanding loads the 45 ACP and 9 mm Parabellum will give about equal performance. The 9 mm will be pickier about bullet choice to deliver that performance.

As a practical matter for civilians, caliber choice is more a matter of what you can conceal than horsepower. Thus I sometimes carry a 32 ACP or a 380 ACP although I would not claim either to be star performers.

And then sometimes there just isn't any justifiable reason for public opinion. Why is the .410 popular for a kid's gun when a 28 gauge will do anything a .410 will do and do it better?

[Floppy_D]

I know that in general the 9mm parabellum cartridge is controversial as a viable self defense calibre.
Really? It's rather popular around here. Some folks lean other directions, but that doesn't mean they don't have confidence in the 9mm. I carry 45acp, but I'm perfectly satisfied with 9mm. Me carrying a different round doesn't mean I think the others are useless.

[Jaws]

rl2669: "9mm gets no respect...why?"


It gets a lot more respect now, since people now pick on FN's 5.7x28mm instead. :D

[76shuvlinoff]

The 9mm I own is a WWII P38 relic, a 9mm conversion for my xd40sc and a 9mm cylinder for my 357 Blackhawk. So far the cartridge seems to work when I want it to but I'll admit I've never used it, or any other caliber, in self defense.

What amuses me here is when we're debating .357 and up the 9mm is puny and inadequate. When we're arguing .380 and below... the 9mm is a one shot show stopper.

Just saying...... :evil:

[The Lone Haranguer]

All my self defense guns are 9mm. It is perfectly adequate provided JHP bullets are used. The .40 and .45 might be a little better, but it comes at a price, both monetary (cost of practice ammo), recoil and (in some cases) gun size.

[Mr_Rogers]

Because many people choose their firearm based on hyped magazine articles or what is printed on the ammunition maker's box.

[REJones]

The 9mm has been around for a century, however it didn't really catch on in the U.S. until the 80's or so. At the time, JHP bullets were no longer a novelty but they definitely hadn't been perfected.

With all the hype surrounding the new guns, the new caliber, and the new bullet, the American shooting public was set up for a serious let down when the 9mm didn't turn out to be a nuclear tipped death machine.

The early 9mm choices were standard pressure in either 115 gr or 147 gr weights. Both have issues - an aggressively expanding 115 gr round may fail to penetrate or lose a lot of weight resulting in a failure to inflict a lethal wound. The 147 gr round may not be travelling fast enough to expand at all.

The fact is, 9mm offers more oomph than .38 Special. The .38 was "good enough" for police and civilian work for decades. So there's no reason at all that the 9mm should be considered ineffective. Inferior is a matter of personal skill, taste and your particular tactical application. . . .

[Mike the Wolf]

The 9mm lacks respect because it IS somewhat underpowered and less likely to seriously disrupt something than .40 or .45. Additionally, its primary reasons for use, low recoil and thus greater controllability, have largely been obsoleted by improvements in firearm technology.

[Guillermo]

if one were to avail them the use of the history of 9mm wounds you would want to carry something more punch. After all, we all know that ballistically speaking, a 9mm is better than a .380 but not as good as a .357 or a 45.

Of course we all know that shot placement is king.

My advice is carry the most potent round that you can conceal and shoot well. If it is a .22, .32 9mm or a .44 magnum, so be it.

[gym]

It depends on who is hyping what. In the 60's it was a snubby, everything else was just ok, 70's 9mm and 357, the Hipower was the killing machine, the 357 was so powerful it would go through all of the houses in the neighboorhood, then in the 80's the 45's made a resurgence, then the 40's in the 90's, along with the 380's being better then the 38's, now we are back to 9 and 45 again. it's the hype and advertising that like womens fashion have to keep us at the counter finding a new excuse to spend money.

[SJ78]

I dont think the 9mm is underpowered . With fmj it has a bad record yes .
But with good defense ammo it's just as lethal as many others . Plus it's better for combat then say a 357 . Because of it's lighter recoil . I would admit the 45 acp is probably the best defense round . But 9mm is no joke with good ammo

[blkbrd666]

It would have to be more than adequate because the majority of people lately seem to be carrying .380ACP...I can't find a box of .380ACP anywhere and haven't been able to in 3 months. Everything else is available.

[pbearperry]

The 9mm with modern +P HP bullets is def. not impotent.If the ammo folks would load a 9mm round with a 158 gr HP doing 1000 fps,I truly think that would be a great round for self defense.It may not be a Rino buster,but in the hands of a skilled marksman,it would certainly do the job.

[heavyshooter]

What amuses me here is when we're debating .357 and up the 9mm is puny and inadequate. When we're arguing .380 and below... the 9mm is a one shot show stopper.

Good Point!!!

[BCRider]

9mm is a healthy step up from the old .38Spl.

I've worked with a bunch of cops way back and the standing joke about the .38Spl was that the SOP to using the gun was to fire 6 warning shots and then throw the gun to wound. Now granted it's not THAT bad but they didn't have much faith in the Special loads and those that actually thought they may need to use their gun in self defense would load non approved +P rounds to provide a fighting chance.

[Boba Fett]

I noticed that a lot of people mentioned the magnum rounds.

While I do like magnum rounds (I enjoy shooting the 357 and 44) and both certainly have a good stopping ability, I hesitate to actually use them for defensive home or carry rounds.

Main reason? Well, if you use them at night, you'll potentially blind yourself so you only get one shot at the BG. Also, they are loud and if I'm defending myself, I'd prefer to be able to hear over the ringing in my ears.

This isn't just my opinion I'm tossing about, this is what our CHL instructor (the wife of a police officer and one good but seriously strict instructor) advised use to avoid. The question was asked about which caliber to use and part of her answer was to avoid the magnum rounds.

[BCRider]

Having left my hearing muffs off and shot a single .22 round at an indoor range I can see... er... hear the sense in what she taught you. The .22 was enough to make me flinch in the indoor setting. I can't imagine the effect of a magnum round of any caliber when shot indoors.

[Dirtpile]

About the only drawback to the 9mm as a defensive round is that while loads are engineered to expand reliably, they are also for the most part over-engineered to feed reliably. Which results in a an overly narrow pocket when compared to other calibers. Even a fair number of .380 pills have larger pocket openings than many used in 9s. Other than that it's a very good round. Plenty of power in a small package.

[earlthegoat2]

In the words of one of my old coworkers: "The 9mm has killed more people than cancer."

If I were to buy a Glock it would be the 19. If I were to get another pistol it would be BHP.

[C-grunt]

Back in the early days of the hollowpoint the 9mm had two flavors. The light weight 115 grn and the 147 grn. The 115s would expand but not penetrate deep and the 147s wouldnt always expand. With modern HP designs, the light weights hold together better and penetrate more and the slower 147s expand reliably.

Plus the whole Miami FBI shootout happened. They had to have a scape goat, so the 9mm was it. They couldnt admit that their agents were horribly outgunned by a determined opponent. I do believe that the 9mm round did actually kill him but, unlike the movies, many people dont just fall down dead when shot.

[Hush]

short answer to your original question:
The Miami FBI Shootout.

A BG took a should be fatal wound from a 9mm and continued to fight. Everybody panicked, the FBI switched to 10mm...that lasted a long time, and the rest is history.
Of course the problem isnt with the round, but the style of cartridge.
In the right confiuration, the 9mm is still a very viable round, and not to mention...NATO friendly, thus widely available around the world.

[t_dickinson]

Don't to break the thread but why do people say the .38 spl is now the wimpy kid? I seem to have read thousands of posts by folks who would leave the house without their trigger finger before they would abandon thier .38 J-Frame!

[Hush]

+P+ baby!

[Girodin]

I would reference you to the poll "what caliber did you carry today?" 9mm recieved a plurality of votes. That is the ultimate respect, actually chosing to carry it. I own .45s but also feel adequately armed when I carry one of my 9mms

[kilo729]

There's no real good reason. In the end it's a pistol round, and pistols aren't the godless killing machines that bears and rifles are. Shot placement is what's key with it and other pistol rounds.

[jaholder1971]

C-Grunt and Hush hit it on the nose.

[RedneckCopsWife]

Girodin,

I was wondering if when you first shot the 9MM if it was more accurate than your 45's. This is my first time owning a 9MM and found that it was more accurate than my G27 that I have been using for years. I'll be getting another gun in April and decided to get a Springfield XD 40 with the 3" to use as my carry weapon. My husband thinks that the XD 45 would be too much for me. He only said this because his duty weapon was a Glock 22 and I had a hard time with that when we went to the range. Like I said, I'm just curious what you thought.


Susi

[Phydeaux642]

the ideal pocket gun is an aluminum & plastic Ruger Alaskan, chambered in .454 Casull.

I gots to have me one of them. I think Ruger is making one called the LCC (Light Compact Cannon).

I like 9mm because it's much less expensive to practice with, therefor, I get to shoot more making me mo' better.

[polekitty]

Mostly, it only gets no respect from people who have never been shot with one. But, if you do carry a 9 you need to carry the "right" kind of ammo! Light (124gr max) JHP bullet, +P.

[LightningJoe]

Because it's a dinky little cartridge. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, but intuitively, when you hold it up next to .45 Auto cartridge, it looks tiny.

[tipoc]

First off it gets alot of respect. Over 100 years old it's still one of the rounds against which all overs are judged or compared.

No other handgun round has gone through as much development and redevelopment. This is because it has woirked well at it's job.

For decades it's been debated whether it's as good as the .45 or not. In itself a testiment to it's abilities.

It's been chambered in many of the best firearms ever made.

When they developed the .40 S&W it was so that it could fit in guns of the same size as the 9mm firearms and compete with it. Testiment again.

Famously reliable and accurate.

It's biggest downside is that in FMJ form it famously overpenetrates, more than ball ammo in .45 or .40 S&W. This is only a downside in an urban self defense environment most other places it's a plus.


Nope it's not as powerful as the .45acp, the .357 magnum, the .45 Colt, the .40 S&W or a bunch of others we could mention. But it's chambered in some of the finest guns ever made and it can work as well as the others at it's job.
It doesn't get respect from folks who know no better.

tipoc

[novaDAK]

the 357 magnum is near the top of everyone's list as a potent manstopper. And the 9x19 is almost exactly the same calibre (.356), and with proper loading (e.g. +p or +p+) should be comparable in velocity to the 357 mag.
It's not. 9mm +P+ is typically a 115gr @ 1300fps, while standard .357mag is typically a 125gr @ 1450fps. The 9mm listed above is pretty hot for a 9mm, loaded above industry standards for pressure. However, the .357 load listed above is still a few hundred fps below top loadings. Not to mention .357mag can launch heavier bullets that 9mm can only dream of.

Also, they are loud and if I'm defending myself, I'd prefer to be able to hear over the ringing in my ears.I've shot 9mm outdoors without hearing protection. Even after one shot, all I could hear for a good 20 seconds after the shot was ringing, of course .357 is worse, but how much it matters is up for debate since you won't be thinking about your hearing when you pull the trigger.

With the right loads (either 158gr LSWCHP +P or 125/135gr Gold Dots) the .38spl is just fine. With the right loads (124gr Gold Dots, 147gr HST, etc.) 9mm is just fine. Everything has its advantages (and disadvantages).

[Kind of Blued]

I shot some Buffalo Bore 147gr. 9mm +P+ yesterday out of my Kahr PM9... :eek:

I then shot my 1911. The first round of .45 was the first time I've ever flinched while shooting my 1911. :)

[BigBlock]

The power of a .357 and a 9mm cannot be compared just because they are the same size. Both will do the same job of stopping a person. Beyond that the .357 can be used for hunting and woods protection where a 9mm would be laughed at. It's not about the cartridge really, but rather revolvers are able to operate over a HUGE range of velocities and weights, where an auto cannot.

[1Texican!]

RCW/Susi -

. . . I think that if you were to fire both the Glock & the XD side by side & both with the same .45 ammo, you would experience a noticeable difference in recoil between the two pistols. Try before you buy - you just might be in for a pleasant surprise . . . ;)

[makarovnik]

The 9mm gets plenty of respect. Soldiers shooting standard ball ammo might not like them but with good hollowpoints they will get the job done.

It might not have the stopping power of the .357 magnum but it's almost as good as the .45acp.

[lanternlad1]

Over 100 years old it's still one of the rounds against which all overs are judged or compared.

The .45acp is also over 100 years old. Invented in 1904 by J.M. Browning. So there. :)

That said, I carry 9mm. I use 9mm for plinking. I have a 9mm sidearm and a 9mm carbine. Why? I can hit my target with it. No other reason. I shoot 10 times better with 9mm than I do with any other round. Plus, its available everywhere, and cheaper than .45.

[481]

I am always surprised when someone refers to the 9mm as "underpowered".

Domestic ammunition in both chamberings has similar levels of KE.

9mm 115gr @ 1160fps = 343.6 fpe
9mm 124gr @ 1120fps = 345.4 fpe
9mm 147gr @ 1000fps = 326.4 fpe

.45 185gr @ 950fps = 370.7 fpe
.45 230gr @ 825fps = 347.6 fpe

Given the present levels of performance displayed by the current premium bullet designs, there appears to precious little difference between the two calibers.

I s'pose that I just don't see the purpose served by such a "debate".

I like and carry both. (G17 and HK USP45)

[X-Rap]

I think the 9's resurgence is largely due to peoples understanding that having a weapon that shoots a standardized (NATO) round may be of some benefit in the future mainly due to availability.
As to its efficency, comparison of the 9 with other calibers and only considering the improvements to the 9 are a bit disingenuine. If you put better bullets and powder in one you must allow it in the other so the 9 continues to lag behind larger calibers. How important this is in the real world is debateable but I'm convinced that 9mm could be much easier to aquire than 357sig, 45GAP, or even .40SW. That is why I have moved toward some conversion options.
9mm pistols are starting to become the rarity in a lot of shops that I have been to lately.

[Boba Fett]

X-Rap
9mm pistols are starting to become the rarity in a lot of shops that I have been to lately.

Interesting.

Do you think it could be because of the recent gun buying sprees and 9mm just has a higher popularity among the average citizen than other caliber pistols?

Or is your hypothesis that they are losing popularity and thus not being stocked as much?


I haven't seen a drop in 9mm popularity in my area, but I have seen a slight increased interest in 45s. When I'm at the stores I frequent, the talk of people interested in purchasing is generally well balanced between 9mm and 45s, with the 380 usually coming up for carry and women.

[X-Rap]

No I'm sorry you miss understood my statement. What I implied was that the popularity was increasing due to its standardization as a NATO cartridge. My personal tilt is to get barrels/mags for some of my .40 cal. just because round for round the 9mm is produced in far greater numbers than any other.
This may only be regional and also related to the mind set of the clientel of the shops I visit.
I personally have no quarrel with the 9mm but do understand that there are better calibers available for the time being.

[MagnumDweeb]

The 9mm, for me the MagnumDweeb, is a round that makes a good "woman's round". I got an Arcus 94C (BHP clone in detective size) and Rossi Snub .357 Interarms production (now own the Taurus-Rossi 462) and a hundred bucks for a Ruger SBH I had bought at an estate sale for $150. I had only owned .357 and .45 ACP before.

The BHP clone pointed and shot out to twenty yards without a single problem, even single-handed. But I didn't get that felt-recoil, that tensing of muscles in my wrist, forearm, and bicep I got when I shot .44 Magnum out of a 7.5" Ruger SBH single-handed at targets at twenty yards. Or using a snub .357 to do double taps.

I sold the Arcus 94C to a cousin of mine when she got her CWP. I went two years without 9mm and only finally got back in on a combined sale from a friends Dad for Winchester 94AE and Ruger P95 for five hundred bucks (the gun shop offered him $350). So when I ordered my reloading equipment from Lee I made sure I got what I needed to reload the two thousand plus spent 9mm cartridges, Dies, 1000 cast bullets for six cents a bullet, 500 rounds of JHP for 6 cents a bullet (got them from two different guys and that's just how it worket out), a thousand CCI small pistol primers and a lb of Hogdon Titegroup.

So now I give 9mm respect, if you must absolutely make a shot at twenty yards, or fire enough rounds to possibly suppress a madman, it's better to have fifteen to twenty rounds of 9mm then only eight rounds of .45 ACP (of course I also carry my snub .357 in my pocket with me and the Ruger comes along as an extra but hopefully don't need it gun).

[atlanticfire]

I've shot thousands upon thousands of rounds out of my FN HP over the years have have have planty of respect for what it can do.

[MisterMike]

I am always surprised when someone refers to the 9mm as "underpowered".

Domestic ammunition in both chamberings has similar levels of KE.

9mm 115gr @ 1160fps = 343.6 fpe
9mm 124gr @ 1120fps = 345.4 fpe
9mm 147gr @ 1000fps = 326.4 fpe

.45 185gr @ 950fps = 370.7 fpe
.45 230gr @ 825fps = 347.6 fpe

I've often wondered about this, having seen similar comparisons in the past. Admitting that I know little about ballistics, it seems that, depending on the rounds, a 9mm will afford roughly 88% to 99% of the kinetic energy of a .45. Of course, pure kinetic energy isn't the only factor in effectiveness, but when you add in greater ammunition capacity and, at least for some of us, more accuracy, the 9mm seems to compare pretty favorably to the .45.

This isn't a knock against the proponents of the .45, or any round, but there is a tendency by some to tout the "bigger is better" approach without really considering the pros and cons. I notice that more with people who are new to shooting than with more experienced folks.

[Boba Fett]

What I implied was that the popularity was increasing due to its standardization as a NATO cartridge.

Ah I gotcha. NATO standardization is certainly a good cause for increased interest.

I wasn't trying to say that you were putting down the 9mm, I was just curious about 9mm firearms being purchased more or less in recent months; seeing if there was a new trend or whatnot. :cool:

[X-Rap]

Yea to my view people are being more practical today. It seems that some of the more exotic calibers are setting on the shelves and the common easy to feed models are in shorter supply. I have a few oddballs like the 32NAA and a 357SIG the latter was easily fixed and I have some 380 to fill in the mousegun catagory. Have you experienced a shortage of 380 in your area?
I haven't found it at WalMart for months and other more high priced sources are spotty.

[Claude Clay]

9mm has gotten respect from everyone who has seen mine. though honestly only one ran away-the rest muttered as they walked

[CoRoMo]

9mm gets no respect


Silly.
There might be .40 fans, .45acp fans, etc. but I simply don't believe that an argument even exists where 9mm is looked down upon as less than adequate for self defense. Anyone making that argument is out of their ever-loving mind. I'm skeptical that this "theory" is at all as broadly accepted as the OP suggests. Everyone who has a modicum of knowledge about weaponry would know that the 9x19 has ample stopping power.

[JohnnyGrey]

I carry 9mm. I'm not concerned with round to round comparisons between 9 and .45. A reasonably skilled shooter can put two 9mm slugs on target before brass even hits the ground. The extra 50 ft/lb or so isn't worth sacrificing half of my mag capacity. 9mm/.40/.45 are in the same class as far as I'm concerned, that's why the debate never ends. All three are viable carry options, but if I felt I needed more power, I'd go to 10mm, not .45.

[doubs43]

The fabled 45 ACP is hardly any better then the 9 mm Parabellum when both are loaded with hardball.

Not true at all. Do a little research on the US Army tests when they were deciding on a replacement for the .38 revolvers. They used live animals and human cadavers - real flesh - in their tests and the .45 ACP was far better than the 9mm. Not just a "little" but significantly better.

[1Texican!]

The fabled 45 ACP is hardly any better then the 9 mm Parabellum when both are loaded with hardball.

+1 - I'm with doubs43 with reference to the above quote . . .

It simply will not stand on it's own . . . ya got any thing to back it up other than personal opinion - ?? Heck, everybody's got one of those ;)

[CPshooter]

I think the bad reputation is based on the poor performance of the full metal jacket 9mm. The round will go through the target without transfering much energy; making it a very poor self defense round. But the advances in bullet tech has resulted in a viable self defense round. An expanding 9mm is pretty effective. However, the advances have been applied to the bullets that start with "4" as well. Which keeps the 9mm behind the curve. Essentially, the thing that made the 9mm good has made the .45 acp great. So we still shun the 9mm in spite of the fact that it has more than adequate stopping power. This is my guess. Maybe someone will repair my post.Your post is accurate, but I thought I'd bring up the fact that the barrel length of the gun can possibly bring 9mm ahead of the curve. I'd take a 9mm JHP in a 3-3.5" gun over a .45 JHP without hesitation. A .45acp in a 3" barrel probably won't expand as reliably as it would in a 5" barrel, and it will suffer from extreme velocity loss (>200fps). There goes your "energy" and "energy transfer."

Also, a .357mag from a revolver with a barrel length of < 2" probably isn't any better than a 9mm out of a 3-4" barrel and I'd be willing to bet that a 9mm +P would perform better than the .357mag in some instances.

All I'm sayin' is that 9mm is perfectly capable of being a viable self-defense round.

Also, no FMJ bullet will be an effective man-stopper.

*edit* Here ya go:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/dmchinnock/Handgun_gel_comparison_service_cali.jpg

[LightningJoe]

People aren't looking at calculated energies or bullet tracks in gelatin. They're looking at the cartridges themselves. 9mm=small. 45 Auto=big. Bigger is better.

[jason97496]

I do not have aend of my an opinion myself, but, everytime I see a 9mm I think of a conversation I heard 20+ years ago. A paramedic friend of my fathers was said "I lost all respect for 9mms when I saw that guys knee".

[searcher451]

Another caliber war -- perfect.

But why pick on the 9mm? It gets plenty of respect from me, and for a lot of good reasons, among them the relative costs of the ammo when compared with much of the other stuff on the market and the numerous must-have guns that require it: the P.38, the Walther P5 and P88, and a whole host of others. I'll bet that I have more than 20 9mm guns in the gun safe; a number of them are regular visitors to the range. Wouldn't have it any other way.

[IMTHDUKE]

9mm gets no respect....why?

It is because of Rodney Dangerfield:neener:

[ironvic]

I spent most of my 30+ years of being an avid shooter eschewing the 9mm. I had plenty of .38s, many .357s and of course, the good old .45 ACP, my favorite. Then I got a 9mm P-38 WWII ex-Nazi pistol. What a joy that thing was to shoot! I sold it because the swastikas creeped me out, and bought a Sig P-220 .45. The problem with the 220 was that it felt heavy, fully loaded, and I wanted the same size gun with a smaller caliber. Right now, I don't even own a .45, mostly because I can't afford another and don't have the space for a gun collection as I live in an RV full time.

My main gun is now a Sig P-226 in 9mm and I love it. I don't feel under-armed with it and I'm pretty good with this sweet shooting pistol. As my wrists get older, the 226 doesn't smack my wrists and hand as bad as the sharp recoil from the .357. I truly enjoy shooting the .357, but unless it's a heavy gun, the old bones feel it. 9mm? I can shoot it all day, which translates into being a better shooter. 9mm ammo's cheaper than almost any other standard caliber in my area and 9mm ball for practice is very inexpensive and readily available. I can also reload if I need to.

My P-226 holds 15 + 1 rounds and fits my hand like it was custom made for me. I shoot well with it and actually like it's blocky old-school tech looks. In full size configuration, the 4.4" barrel allows the 9mm to achieve good velocity over a compact or subcompact gun. Mine's a West German model with the cool hard plastic diamond grips. Like the Navy SEAL guy said in an old Discovery Channel DVD, the 9mm is very effective when you double tap two to the heart and 1 to the head (for good luck I guess). The 9mm P-226 was standard issue for Navy SEAL teams for many years and I knew a few of 'em who carried the Sig and they felt well armed with it.

During the times I want something smaller to pack in the pocket, make mine a .357. I carry a S&W 686 Plus and go with .357 because the 2 1/2" barrel needs all the velocity help it can get to make the .38 caliber sized bullet sizzle. Otherwise, I'd be quite happy with a .38 Special +P. That being said, I don't shoot anything I'm not good with. The 686 Plus is heavy for a shorty snub and I'm a very good shot with it. Me and that gun were made for each other, and that's half the battle.

All that being said, I hope the only thing I ever have to shoot are tin cans and 2x2 chunks.

[chriske]

Lots of people here on THR love the 9mm. I know I do.

Of those who disrespect it, could it - possibly, maybe, in some way- have to do with the fact that the 9 mm wasn't (insert Bruce Springsteen jingle here) "booorn in the USA" ?

[MikePGS]

Probably because shooting something with a 9mm does nothing (or overpenetrates, take your pick) and shooting something with a .45 will cause it to explode, and shower you with money and half-naked women in bikinis.


Its true, i read it somewhere on the internet.

[TreyNC]

I am happy with 9mm, some reasons size of carry gun, higher cap, price of ammo, and my wife can handle it. Hell my great uncle used to carry a 32-20 that is well out preformed by 38sp and he killed five people with his.

[BillyBA]

I agree with Javelin all the way on this topic :

And as far as I am concerned the 9mm is the best pistol cartridge ever made. Shooting both 124 and 147gr ammo. It can be suppressed especially well and carries enough power to be used in any environment and platform from a submachine gun, AR carbines, to pistols, subcompacts, and even revolvers. There are very few cartridges that are as diverse as the 9mm.

Not only is the 9mm fairly cheaper to buy and plink with , it converts to many other fire arms such as the Kel-Tach Sub 2000 (which after months of oredering it , Im still patiently wating for it in MY posetion - I have shot one before tho?) which makes it a versatile bullet when all is said and done . Plus , I bet you any amount that if you shoot someone with a 9mm either in the pelvis that you will drop like a rock and if shot in the thoratic cavity - you will drop and go into shock ?

[1Texican!]

BBA: . . . the 9mm is the best pistol cartridge ever made. :what: Really? - Well, everyone's entitled to an opinion :rolleyes:

I bet you any amount that if you shoot someone with a 9mm either in the pelvis that you will drop like a rock and if shot in the thoratic cavity - you will drop and go into shock ? :what: Goll-ley! I sure hope not - doesn't really sound like it's in the best interest of the shooter - HUH? :confused: :D

[doubs43]

Plus , I bet you any amount that if you shoot someone with a 9mm either in the pelvis that you will drop like a rock and if shot in the thoratic cavity - you will drop and go into shock

There have simply been too many instances when the 9mm has proven to be ineffective or lacking. The FBI went to larger calibers after this incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Note that Platt was shot twice with a 9mm (one that would have eventually killed him) and wasn't taken out by any means. The same two shots from a .45 ACP would have likely ended the fight.

[MikePGS]

Note that Platt was shot twice with a 9mm (one that would have eventually killed him) and wasn't taken out by any means. The same two shots from a .45 ACP would have likely ended the fight.
I could be wrong, but wasn't the fight ultimately ended by the .38 special which is of course not as powerful as 9mm?

[MCgunner]

For me, IMHO, the 9x19 in a pocket sized subompact is the ULTIMATE defensive carry. 410 ft lbs, 1263 fps for a 115 Hornady XTP from a 3" barrel pushed by 6.5 grains unique, a compressed load. That's got more zip on it than any .38 special loading especially from a snubby and approaches .357 magnum ballistics. It is very controllable and accurate from the diminutive little pocket gun, which is the main attribute as I see it. Easy to carry, safe to carry, easy to hit with, reliable, and powerful. I have a .380, but I don't carry it very often.

[safenate]

Funny enough, most 9, 40 & 45 have very similar energy potential. +P loads in 9 & 45 NEARLY equal those of most 40 loads. What one may gain by the extra 2mm (9mm = .35 caliber; .45 = 11mm) they lose with twice the 9mm bullets. I have shot plenty of all three calibers and would very comfortably continue to carry the 9mm, or the 40, or the 45 to defend myself. I shoot 9mm in USPSA, because I carry it for duty, mostly.

[20nickels]

I own the larger/hotter calibers. I would love to have a nine.

[Second Amendment Liberal]

both 9mm and .45 are VERY close in energy (averaging about 500-some joules). the thing is, .45 has more area and doesn't penetrate like 9mm

[2ndAmFan]

The original 9mm hardball round got a lot of complaints from soldiers who used it in combat when it first came out. Among other things they claimed that heavy clothing, particularly that made from animal hides, could stop it or render it incapable of causing more than a flesh wound.
Today's 9mm is a very different round from the one they had then, and while I prefer something a little stronger, I am comfortable using a 9 in defense situations. I consider it the minimum though.

[tipoc]

For folks information here is an old report on the penetration of the 9mm. Be sure to note the velocity and weight of the bullets used.

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.guns/browse_thread/thread/22a91dd6e25f9618/7388c4eb38887ac1

tipoc

[doubs43]

The original 9mm hardball round got a lot of complaints from soldiers who used it in combat when it first came out. Among other things they claimed that heavy clothing, particularly that made from animal hides, could stop it or render it incapable of causing more than a flesh wound.
Today's 9mm is a very different round from the one they had then, and while I prefer something a little stronger, I am comfortable using a 9 in defense situations. I consider it the minimum though.

I don't know where you heard or read the information you've given but it's unbelievably incorrect. The original 9mm was first chambered in the 1902 Luger (Parabellum) pistol. When adopted as the standard German military sidearm in 1908, the bullet design was a truncated cone with a flat nose and remained that way until 1916 when complaints from The British and French claiming it was designed to cause inhuman wounds caused the Germans to design the now common round nose ball cartridge. The design of the Luger (P-08) action is such that a HOT load is required for proper function. The idea that heavy clothing or even animal hides would stop the bullet or reduce it's effect to a "flesh wound" is clearly not the case. If anything, the 9mm ball bullet over penetrates. (A good load for the Luger pistol is 6.0 grains of Unique and a 124 or 125 grain bullet.)

For years the Europeans loaded the 9mm much hotter than manufacturers in the US did. Many Lugers wouldn't function properly with US ammo because the loads were too light. (Some late WW1 German 9mm that was substandard quality found it's way into the US in the 1920's and gave the German ammo a bad name for awhile. It's possible it used poor powder or was improperly stored but it wasn't normal.)

Fred Datig's book shows the German firm of DWM loading a 124 grain bullet to a velocity of 1250 FPS for the 1902 Luger. Does that seem inferior to today's 9mm ammo?

Today the Luger is a collector's gun and not nearly as common as they once were. Newer pistols aren't as sensitive to cartridges as the Luger and if I were a betting man I'd bet that until you get into +P loads, today's 9mm offerings aren't as hot as the original German military cartridges of 1908.

[2ndAmFan]

doubs43: I admit It's been awhile since I studied on the early 9mm round, but if memory serves, the WWI German soldiers were complaining about Russians, especially Cossacks, who wore very heavy clothing and often covered that with a sheepskin coat. I don't know a lot about the early 9mm, but I am pretty sure I remember reading that several years ago in a history of WWI. Have you heard/read anything about that?

[g17voodoo]

Just hit where you aim and 9mm will do fine.

[heron]

Well, they didn't call it "parabellum" for nothing . . . (any Latin students here?)

[kmbrman]

If you think 9mm is too light a round , just look at some of the exanded 147 gr. Federal HST pictures floating around the internet. Modern designs in 9mm JHPs have made it into a different round than it was just a few years ago !

[pps]

I know that in general the 9mm parabellum cartridge is controversial as a viable self defense calibre. Many on this forum and elsewhere prefer the 45 ACP and will perhaps settle for the 40 S&W. In fact, many times I feel like the 9mm is considered a barely adequate

Help me understand one thing though - the 357 magnum is near the top of everyone's list as a potent manstopper. And the 9x19 is almost exactly the same calibre (.356), and with proper loading (e.g. +p or +p+) should be comparable in velocity to the 357 mag. Assuming that the projectile designs are comparable, it seems that 9mm should be a good load for self defense.

Comments?

Living here in California, I'm not allowed to legally own a normal capacity magazine (I refuse to call them high capacity). As such, If I'm going to be limited to 10 rounds or less, I'm going for an 8 round .357 loaded to the hilt for maximum asswhoopage per round.

If I were allowed to legally carry a 20rd 9mm, I'd carry that in a heartbeat.

Well, they didn't call it "parabellum" for nothing . . . (any Latin students here?)

for war

[AKElroy]

I know that in general the 9mm parabellum cartridge is controversial as a viable self defense calibre. Many on this forum and elsewhere prefer the 45 ACP and will perhaps settle for the 40 S&W. In fact, many times I feel like the 9mm is considered a barely adequate

I own 9mm's & shoot them often. I stock up on 9mm ammo because it is cheap, and is probably the best choice for a military cartrige when simply taking an opponent off the field of battle is the objective, and carrying large amounts of lightweight ammo is important. (Same argument for the .223; I want it on the battlefield--but if I am to use a rifle in the house for defense, I'll take an AK) I am not a fan of the 9mm for defense. Something about the moderate speed, shape, weight & caliber make for a round that badly overpenetrates & yet fails to transfer energy efficiently. I prefer the .40 for personal defense--great energy transfer, does not OP as badly as the 9, and is not capacity limited like the .45. I own guns in all three calibers, I carry the .45 some, the .40 nearly always. The 9? Never.

[AKElroy]

doubs43: I admit It's been awhile since I studied on the early 9mm round, but if memory serves, the WWI German soldiers were complaining about Russians, especially Cossacks, who wore very heavy clothing and often covered that with a sheepskin coat. I don't know a lot about the early 9mm, but I am pretty sure I remember reading that several years ago in a history of WWI. Have you heard/read anything about that?

Not accurate. The 9 penetrates far more than the .40 or .45. In fact, having "executed" wild hogs in a pen, (a brutal, emotionally scaring event if not for the evil these vermin represent) I can report that the .45 was the LEAST effective on this heavy-skinned animal. I had MULTIPLE head shots bounce off with 230 gr. ball ammo; the 9mm dropped them like a rock. As an aside, when you do bounce rounds off the head of a 200lb pig, they REALLY want out of that pen.

[kendradad]

All I can say is I wouldn't want anyone shooting at me with a .22 much less a 9mm. :) Any volunteers?

[2ndAmFan]

I figured it out. it was the 7.65x22 parabellum round that was underpowered and replaced by the 9x19 luger.

[ScareyH22A]

After watching all the photos and results of the ballistics carnage at the ever so entertaining www.boxotruth.com I've come to the conclusion that a pistol is just a pistol and a rifle is a rifle.

If you care to go through all their "tests" you'll come to the same conclusion that the difference between a 9mm and a .45 is negligible at best. Now if you're talking about a rifle or a breech shotty, then we're talking apples and oranges.

So I think a 9mm JHP that I can double tap with is at least as effective as a .45

[Jenrick]

Both the 9mm and .45 got their initial reputation (along with the .45 LC, .38 short/long/special, the rest of their ilk) when no one made reliable expanding hollow points. Yes when all you're doing is poking holes, bigger is always better. I would argue that if the .40 S&W had been introduced in the early portion of the 20th century with only FMJ available for loadings it would have a mediocre reputation.

The .45 ACP has been regarded as the best SD cartridge for a long time for the simple reason "no one makes a .46." If someone had made a .46 that was remotely shootable, I can guarantee you that .45 would be lumped in the middle with all the other cartridges rather then the top. As so many people have stated before with modern bullet design there's not much of a difference between all the major caliber rounds out there. Shoot what you shoot the best, I carry a G34 (9mm Glock) at work as an LEO and don't feel undergunned at all. I also carry a USP .45 and don't feel like I'm better armed then when I carry my Glock. Hits and where they are located matter far more then .02-.07 of an of bullet diameter.

-Jenrick

[IndianaBoy]

I carry a 9mm.

I don't feel undergunned.

[doubs43]

It must be remembered that the military isn't allowed to use expanding bullets and thus depends upon "ball" bullets to do the job at hand. Before adopting the .45ACP as standard, the US Army performed extensive tests on cattle and human cadavers. Where a magazine full of 9mm cartridges failed to effectively put down a cow, two or three shots from a .45ACP would. Human cadavers were suspended from a rope and shot with both cartridges. The amount of rearward movement was carefully recorded. In ALL cases, the .45ACP was considerably more effective than the 9mm.

Civilians are not restricted to hardball cartridges. The 9mm becomes much better when an expanding bullet is used..... but so does the .45ACP! When shooting through clothing, the bullet's hollowpoint is often filled with material and effectively becomes a hardball. Then we're back to square one with the .45ACP the clear winner.

For 2009, Hornady has released new cartridges that have a patented hollowpoint bullet that eliminates the plugged cavity and gives full expansion after passing through clothing. Link: http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786

The debate over 9mm vs .45ACP has been going on for more than half a century and will continue. My personal choice for home defense is the .45 but I often carry a 9x18mm Makarov or CZ-82 pistol when I go out unless I know I'm going to a really bad area. Then it's the .45.

The bottom line is quite simple: Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.

[Hoot Gibson]

I thought the .38 was the ugly step child on THR...since I have 3 of them of various sizes, and only 1 9MM I feel like the runt of the litter. I've been looking for a Magnum Force Dirty Harry gun but haven't been able to find one I could afford.

[BillyBA]

:what:Like you said 1Texicanolian ? everybody has an opinion

Goll-ley! I sure hope not - doesn't really sound like it's in the best interest of the shooter - HUH?

but golly josh jee whiz , if I get in a situation of having to shoot an attacker that has a gun pulled on me , Im not so much in a hurry to kill
the guy as much as just dropping him , dis-arming him for my own safety and let him get a ride in an ambulance , so he can live and go to prison - Im about self defense first , if I wanted more than my assailant to suffer than die I would blow his brains out or shoot for the heart - my post was in response about the stopping power of a 9mm . I have had hand guns in higher caliber myself before (45 and 357) but other than having something bigger is usually in my OPINION and that of a few others I have talked to is mostly for show or bragging rights - I carry and use just what I need for low cost and convenience as well as stopping power... convenience being another part of why I prefer the 9mm ?
Now that we're both cooking with propane and propane accessories I can sleep better at night knowing that I have explained myself to you . HUH?:scrutiny:

[nitetrane98]

Curious to note how conspicuous in it's absence is the 10mm when discussing the various attributes of the .380, 9mm, .38spl, .40S&W and .45AP. Best to let sleeping dogs lie, I suppose.

[jard]

/\ gdo point with the 10mm. Also, if you want a bigger hle, then what about the .50 ae?

[kyo]

Here is the thing. When comparing a 9mm to other cartridges, it is one of the smaller ones. Pistol wise I believe it is the second smallest round next to a .22...
What does that tell me as a student of science? Well, for one, it makes a smaller whole then others. This means smaller chance of getting a vital part of the bad guy that may stop him otherwise.
Hollow points are great yea, And they are supposed to get up to 150% of the bullet diameter. Now lets take a 9mm. .356 bullet diameter. Expanded by the full 150% it would be .534.
A .45 ACP starts with .451 and goes out to .6765.
Second, 9mm's don't have a 230 grain. More mass means more damage once the bullet gets in there. More mass to break off into the body. More mass also means slower velocity. Reducing the chance of the bullet to pass straight through the body. Thus giving it a better chance to stop internally, and dumping all of its force into the body.
The advantage of a 9mm is the capacity of a magazine. from 15-20 rounds gives you more shots than a .45 with 9 shots. Whats doing more damage? It all depends. you have twice as many shots to hit vital areas with the 9mm. But you have larger diameters with the .45
Idk, a .45 is just scarier mentally imo. a 9mm is not as intimidating. not saying its not scary, I mean any gun pointed at you is scary, but not AS intimidating as a larger bullet

[ScareyH22A]

I have a couple of 9's and I don't feel underpowered at all. If I shoot someone with my JHP, I'm pretty sure they're gonna feel it. But if they don't, I've got 18 more rounds that I can use. Nothing like 19 holes of expanded hollow points to ruin a BG's day.

[JohnKSa]

9mm gets no respect...why?It gets plenty of respect. Just not in the U.S.

In the U.S. the gun community has been brainwashed by decades of propaganda, mostly from gunwriters, asserting that any caliber that doesn't start with a '4' is ineffective.Pistol wise I believe it is the second smallest round next to a .22...There are a number of pistol calibers smaller than the 9mm but larger than the .22. The .25ACP and the .32ACP are a couple of the most common.Idk, a .45 is just scarier mentally imo.Spoken like a true "student of science"...Before adopting the .45ACP as standard, the US Army performed extensive tests on cattle and human cadavers. Where a magazine full of 9mm cartridges failed to effectively put down a cow, two or three shots from a .45ACP would.The tests did not involve the .45ACP for the simple reason that it didn't exist in 1904 when the tests were performed. Second, the tests were not "extensive" in any sense of the word, they lasted a couple of days and involved shooting only about a dozen animals.

Finally, the live animal testing didn't provide any results nearly as definitive as your post implies. The live animal testing was very loosely controlled involving a variety of animals (in terms of size) and variable shot placement, variable numbers of shots, etc. which resulted in outcomes that couldn't be correlated to ammunition performance in any useful manner.

In the first day of live animal testing, the .30 Luger outperformed all the other tested ammunition by a large margin, killing the animal with a single shot through the lungs in only 30 seconds. None of the other rounds in the first day of testing killed the animal in under 2 minutes from the first shot in spite of the fact that all the other rounds tested involved shooting the animal at least twice. The second day of live testing (in which they completely changed the testing methodology due to the fact that the testers were not happy with the first day's results) yielded equally variable results and they ended up shooting hanging cadavers and selecting the bullets that made the cadavers swing the most. In other words they selected primarily for maximum momentum. The kicker is that they didn't even measure the swing distance, but rather scored the sway subjectively. As in: "Oh, that looks like a 100." or "That's only an 87.", etc.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test

[kyo]

ahh I forgot about the 25 and 32 :banghead:
Spoken like a true "student of science"...
Hey, psychology is a science too! :D

[JohnKSa]

....

[lvcat2004]

Simple, they have not been shot with a 9mm JHP.

That will give them so respect.

[Mike U.]

JohnKSa,

Thank you for posting that link. It was a fascinating read and is now bookmarked.