[spartywrx]

Michigan people

check out bill HB 4348 (2009) http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(qskyil452qxsqqaxeoi0rx45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=2009-HB-4348

It removes "gun free zones" from the CPL. All of them. Write your congresscritters and tell them to support it!!

It is in the Judiciary Comittee right now. Introduced on 2/14/09 Below is a Copy/Paste of all of the committee's email addresses.

markmeadows@house.mi.gov; EllenLipton@house.mi.gov; LisaBrown@house.mi.gov; bobconstan@house.mi.gov; marccorriveau@house.mi.gov; andycoulouris@house.mi.gov; AndrewKandrevas@house.mi.gov; bettiecookscott@house.mi.gov; rebekahwarren@house.mi.gov; tonyaschuitmaker@house.mi.gov; JustinAmash@house.mi.gov; JosephHaveman@house.mi.gov; rickjones@house.mi.gov; EileenKowall@house.mi.gov; toryrocca@house.mi.gov


REMEMBER! BE POLITE!!!

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Wow. Writing now.

[spartywrx]

On another note, has anyone ever been to these committee meetings and spoke before them? I have my week and a half spring break and I'm going to be in Lansing for part of that.

Welcome to the Judiciary Committee web page. The committee's regularly scheduled meeting time is Wednesday at 10:30 a.m. in room 521 of the House Office Building in Lansing.

Anyone ever done this? Would it help the cause?

[cambeul41]

I plan to send a separate e-letter to each individual by name rather that blind copying the same thing to the group.

[leadcounsel]

Email sent

[Dave85]

I heard about this sometime in the past and was wondering what came of it. Thanks for bringing it front and center. I am now starting work on a brilliant example of diplomatic correspondence!

[hso]

I encourage each of you interested in this bill to send a paper-mail letter to them as well.

[spartywrx]

Rep. Mark Meadows, the Judiciary chairman, was mayor of East Lansing during the MCRGO v Ferndale lawsuit. He put up the "no guns" signs on the city's library and other places, only to get smacked down by the courts. He is probably the person who is most-anti and needs the most lobbying.

[cambeul41]

Dear Representative ________:

I would like to express strong support for the passage of House Bill 4348 (2009), which would eliminate the “gun-free zones” from Michigan’s CCW / CPL law.

We know that CPL holders are among the most law abiding of our nation’s citizens. We also know that violent criminals strongly favor the existence of “gun control” and gun-free zones which provide safe working environments for them to do what they will.

The police, as dedicated as they are, cannot serve as our personal protectors. No place, not even schools or places of worship, are ultimately safe. We do remember the lack of protection provided by the “no-gun” rule at Virginia Tech in the spring of 2007 and the successful defensive action taken by a female security volunteer at a Colorado Springs church later that same year.

I am a community college professor at _________________________, but I cannot legally carry in the classroom. Obeying the law leaves me unprotected, and Detroit could well have its own version of Seung-Hui Cho. It is even more likely that there will be a student bent on retaliating against a teacher or other school representative for a well-earned but less than satisfying grade. I have been threatened, and several teachers have told me of having received death threats. Further, since I have no secure storage for my firearm, in the college yet out of the classroom, I must leave it locked in my car, where it is in danger of being stolen. Sometimes my gun protects me; sometimes I protect my gun.

I will be very appreciative when HB 4348 is passed. Michigan will be a safer place.

Sincerely,

[Geno]

cambeul41:

Great letter! You captured the spirit of the matter. Thank-you!

Doc2005

[Nickotym]

Good luck, we are fighting our own battle in ND, it can be a challenge. It is encouraging to see other states doing likewise.

[wyocarp]

Wow, this is another step in the right direction.

[tyler500e]

I wish they would do this in Kansas..

[grampster]

Here's my letter:

Ladies and Gentlemen, As a former police officer I would like to urge you to support the passage of HB 4348, which will remove the prohibiton of those who are lawfully licensed to carry a concealed weapon to be in possession of a firearm in certain areas. No one has anything to fear from a sane, law abiding person.

On the other hand, zealots, criminals and other nefarious and menacing characters are intimidated by the knowledge that anyone they may attempt to prey upon may be armed. A concealed weapon creates doubt in the minds of criminals. That doubt inhibits the criminal. That doubt makes us all safer everywhere.

The police cannot be everywhere. In fact, in our society, we don't want them everywhere. The police also have no lawful mandate to protect anyone.

The present prohibitions in our CCW law serve no purpose except to verify to a miscreant they he may commit his crime with virtually no fear of obstruction.

The "Blood in the streets" argument is old, trite, not true and an insult to law abiding citizens. I urge you to support this change in the law.

[Sheldon J]

My Representative keeps a local office and has regular posted hours, I just go in for a visit, and that really gets their attention.

[leadcounsel]

Below is my original email on bottom and the response on top....

February 24, 2009



Dear Mr. Leadcounsel,



Thank you for contacting the office of Representative Kandrevas. Your point of view is important to this office and your future correspondence is greatly appreciated.



As I am sure you are aware, HB 4348 and HB 4334 were both introduced last week and would revise the current concealed weapons laws. HB 4334 and HB 4348 were referred to the Judiciary Committee, of which Representative Kandrevas is a member. As of today, the legislation has not been introduced in committee.



This issue is one that the Representative will be conducting additional research on prior to making any final decision. He welcomes your input on this issue. Please know that the Representative and I have discussed your concerns and he will take them into consideration when he has the chance to vote on this issue both in Committee and in Session.



Sincerely,



Hannah Bobee
Legislative Assistant
Representative Andrew J. Kandrevas
13th District
517.373.0845
Fax: 517.373.5926
Hbobee@house.mi.gov


Email from Leadcounsel below-----------------

I am a long time resident of Michigan and a concealed carry permit holder. It is plainly clear that criminals ignore the laws and carry weapons without licenses in places where guns have been futily outlawed. To nobody's surprise, the only people that follow the law are law abiding citiznes, those of us who go through the hassle and costs of licensing, following the law and not carrying in the designated 'gun free' zones, etc. The net result is armed criminals and disarmed citizens.

If you look at the mass shootings in this nation, ask yourself where they occur. It is not coincidence they are at schools and churches because armed murders know their victims will be defenseless.

I support changing this law the law and repeal 'gun free' zones.


Thank you,

[razorback2003]

Couldn't you carry in Michigan anywhere when it was a may issue state until 2000 or 2001? And then to get the state to be 'shall issue' restrictions were added? That has been the one problem with many states that go from may to shall issue. Colorado had the same thing happen...you could one time carry inside public K-12 schools, now no more.

[BlayGlock]

Heck, Im from Texas and I would write these guys. Somebody buy them a beer, or some ammo.

[cambeul41]

Subject: Crime at Wayne State University and HB 4348
(My apologies for length and lost formatting)

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Representative XXX:

I have contacted you before in regards to my strong support for the passage of House Bill 4348 (2009), which would eliminate the “gun-free zones” from Michigan’s CCW / CPL law.

In addition to my previous plea for your help, I am forwarding this announcement by Wayne State University where my wife is a PhD student. Such notices from the WSU police are frequent. Those who feel safer on the WSU campus because honest people are not permitted to carry firearms are living in a fool’s paradise: Law breakers by definition break laws. None-the-less, despite being licensed to carry by the State of Michigan for the last five years, my wife cannot legally do so when she goes to class. Being very petite, she would be helpless against male attackers. Gun free zones are disarmed victim zones are criminal empowerment zones.

The advice by Campus Watch to be a good little victim does not sit well with me and does not match the facts concerning ones chances of emerging unhurt when offering no resistance. See page 17 of GunFacts http://gunfacts.info/.

“Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense



“Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:

Resisting with a gun 6%

Did nothing at all 25%

Resisted with a knife 40%

Non-violent resistance 45%”

When seconds count the police are only minutes away – and they under no legal obligation to protect the individual. Read the essay “Just Dial 911? The Myth of Police Protection” http://psacake.com/dial_911.asp



Sincerely,

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: CAMPUSWATCH <campuswatch@wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 6:57 AM
Subject: Special Crime Alert - Robbery Incident
To: CURRENTSTUDENTS@lists.wayne.edu


To All Wayne State University Students, Staff and Faculty,

Special Crime Alert: Robbery Incident

The following information is provided to alert both WSU students, staff and faculty, as well as area residents, to this crime so that they may take additional precautions in the area.

On Thursday, February 26, 2009, a 23 year old male WSU student reported he was the victim of a robbery, while walking on Warren east of Cass Avenue at about 1:00pm.

The student states he went to the ATM machine outside the Olympic Grill and observed the below described subject standing next to him. The student felt uneasy and began to walk away from the ATM. The subject followed him, asking for money. As the student approached the mouth of the alley next to the old Psychology building, the subject raised his coat and displayed a black colored handgun. The subject stated, "Go back to the ATM and take out $500.00, do not make a call and do not run".

The student returned to the ATM machine (while the subject watched him from the alley) and withdrew $300.00. He then walked back to the subject and gave him the money. The offender then fled on foot southbound in the alley.

The student, who was not injured, went to a nearby store and called his father and then called 911. WSUPD was notified by 911 and multiple units responded immediately. A search of the area failed to locate the subject. A police K-9 tracking dog tracked the scent south in the alley to Hancock, then east on Hancock to Woodward where the scent was lost.

Offender Description:

Black Male, 40's, 5'5" very thin, dark complexion, noticeable scar on the bottom lip, wearing a black knit hat, black puffy coat with a black fleece shirt under the coat and blue jeans.


PREVENTION TIPS -

Beware of Your Surroundings:

Police Officers use this term frequently. It means nothing more than simply being aware of what is going on around you and whether or not that activity is normal and expected for the setting. If something seems strange, unusual or suspicious, you are asked to contact the WSU Police immediately at 577-2222. Officers will be dispatched to check out the activity.

Notice Other People:

Look at the people around you, not just a momentary casual glance, but take a good look. Notice if they just glance at you (a normal reaction when making eye contact with a stranger) or if they are watching you. If you notice that they are paying more than momentary attention to you, that may be a red flag that you are about to be targeted.

Trust Your Instincts:

If someone makes you feel uneasy, trust your instincts and act accordingly. Whether indoors or out, change directions and proceed to areas where other people may be around.

Assess Your Own Vulnerability:

Strangers aren't out to attack YOU. It is nothing personal, they are just looking for a target of opportunity. Your goal, therefore, is to look like somebody who will be too much trouble to mess with. They also want to make you their victim without attracting attention from others. Make it a point, wherever you go, to stay in areas where other people are present. As soon as you enter an area where no one else is around, your guard and defenses should be on alert.

Attitude:

Keep your head up and walk purposefully. Look at your surroundings and be aware of them. Headphones may give the impression that you are less aware, as well as being completely engaged in a cell phone conversation.

To reduce your chances of becoming a robbery victim, we recommend you routinely walk in areas where you can see others and others can see you.

Robbery perpetrators, like any other criminal, don't want to be caught "in the act" of robbing someone. They generally prefer areas where neither potential victims or witnesses will see them. By staying in populated areas, you increase your chances of never being selected for this type of crime.

Whether you are in the city or the suburbs and you find yourself confronted by a robber, the most important thing that you can do during the incident is to prevent, if possible, any violence. Always assume the robber is armed, even if you can’t see a weapon, and act accordingly. If you are the victim of a robbery, consider these important tips:

• Get it over with quickly. Chances are if you stall, the robber will get nervous and may be more prone to violence.

• Nothing you have or own is worth getting hurt for. Valuables can be replaced, you can not.

• Do what the robber asks, but do not volunteer to do anything more. Move quickly, but carefully to give the robber exactly what they want.

• Do not fight or try any impulsive heroics. The risks are high if the robber is armed.

• Do not volunteer to go anywhere with the robber or allow them to take you anywhere. The odds are heavily against you if you allow them to take you to a secondary crime scene where they have more privacy and more control over you.

• Do not chase the robber. Carefully note their physical description and the direction they flee in. If they have a vehicle, note it's type, color and license plate if possible.

• If you have the opportunity to flee, do so immediately. The robber wants your property most of all. Drop it or throw in one direction, then run in the opposite direction, to any area where there may be other people around.

• Call the Wayne State University Police immediately at 313-577-2222. WSUPD has a rapid response time and often arrives on-scene within 90 seconds of receiving an emergency call. The sooner we are notified, the better the chance we have for rapidly apprehending the subject.

We also recommend you carry your cell phone on your person (on a belt clip or in your pocket), rather than in a purse or backpack. That way, if you become separated from your purse or backpack, you can still call for assistance.


Crime Prevention Section
Wayne State University Police Dept.
6050 Cass Avenue
Detroit, Mich. 48202
EMERGENCY phone: (313) 577-2222
Non-Emergency: 313-577-6057
e-mail: campuswatch@wayne.edu
web site: http://www.police.wayne.edu

[Gun 4 Fun]

This action is being pushed by MCRGO and Skip Coryell- founder of the Second Amendment March. I e-mail back and forth with Skip some, and he has been promoting this idea for a long time.

[halfacop]

Skip Coryell- founder of the Second Amendment March

Right - Skip is great **** and a huge friend to gun owners in the State of Michigan and elsewhere.... I have known Skip for quite sometime and shared the hunting woods with this fine gentlemen......

If Skip is on the job - then rest assured we have the best on the team......

[Fisherman_48768]

Here is the response I got from my rep: Dear John,

Thanks for your comments.

Sincerely,

Signed here


Terry Brown
State Representative
84th District
Toll free: 888-254-5284
Fax: 517-373-9852

Terry has signed on as a cosponsor. What you don't see is his party affiliation: Democrat; which is unusual.

[freakshow10mm]

Lahti, a Democrat in my area, had a better NRA rating than the Republican he ran against. Still don't trust him.

[spartywrx]

Another e-letter to my representative and to the judicial committee
Subject: Crime at Wayne State University and HB 4348
(My apologies for length and lost formatting)

I get one of those once a week. It pisses me off that WSU won't let you protect yourself, even in the face of rampant crime. And the crime alerts are only for "on-campus" crime. Imagine all the ridiculousness that occurs just off campus. I have a 10minute walk to WSU and it can get scary after dark. The issue of carry on campus at WSU, UofM, and MSU is a whole separate issue that needs to be settled via lawsuit or AG ruling (search for it, I did a long essay on it), but this bill would be a huge step forward in forcing the University's hand.

Anyways, I printed out copies of my letter for all the judiciary members and I'll be mailing them shortly. Its also funny that it is a Democrat who sponsored this. The guy is also a reserve police officer and seems like an alright guy.

Keep the pressure on them.

[BluEyes]

Emails sent. I kept it brief because I'm sure they don't have the time to read every letter anyways. I did include my address as well just so they know that I am indeed a Michigan resident.

[Ohio Gun Guy]

WHAT! Clearly its our educational system. If the bad guy could only read, they would know they are in a gun free zone. The little placard says so! :rolleyes:

[butters]

I emailed my Rep a few days ago. Lets hope this bill doesn't end up dying in committee like a previous one did in 2007.

By the way, believe it or not if you are a CPL holder in Michigan you can legally open carry in any of the pistol free zones.

[Play Hard]

Can someone tell me the current status of HB 4348 regarding elimination of gun free zones? I can't seem to find it by googling.

[Play Hard]

"By the way, believe it or not if you are a CPL holder in Michigan you can legally open carry in any of the pistol free zones"

Seriously? How does that work? Can you cite a statute or something? Interesting concept.

On March 20 I sent an email to all the members of the Michigan House Judiciary committee that is supposed to be evaluating HB4348 and I got this nice response back from Rep. Kandrevas office (excerpt):

...As I am sure you are aware, HB 4348 and HB 4334 were both introduced last week and would revise the current concealed weapons laws. HB 4334 and HB 4348 were referred to the Judiciary Committee, of which Representative Kandrevas is a member. As of today, the legislation has not been introduced in committee.

This issue is one that the Representative will be conducting additional research on prior to making any final decision. He welcomes your input on this issue. Please know that the Representative and I have discussed your concerns and he will take them into consideration when he has the chance to vote on this issue both in Committee and in Session...

So there we have our status. Here is the letter I sent:

Representative:

I am a Michigan Resident of Grand Traverse County.

I urge you to support House Bill 4348 (2009), which would eliminate the gun-free zones from Michigan’s CCW / CPL law. These gun free zones are exactly the type of places where an armed citizen is needed. We have all heard of shootings and mass killings in schools and churches and other places where numerous people gather. It just doesn’t make sense to prohibit honest armed citizens from these places where:

1) The CPL holders who are carrying weapons are a very strong deterrent for criminals to even attempt a shooting incident in one of these public places.


2) In the event that a shooting spree is started by a evildoer, there is a strong likelihood that the bad guy would be neutralized by an armed citizen and lives will be saved.

Finally, if a deranged person is intent on mass killing, where would be the location of choice in Michigan? Of course they would go to a gun free zone where there are no police or armed citizens: churches, schools, sports stadiums etc.

I have three kids in high school/college. I would like to have them be more safe by knowing there may be others, including teachers, who may be armed CPL holders with the intention of protecting their students.

Please Support HB4348 to make Michigan a safer place.

[butters]

I emailed Rep. Elsenheimer whom I believe is also your Representative and he responded favorably. He is a proponent of 2A rights so I wasn't surprised he was in support of the bill.

Regarding the open carry in pistol free zones... Over at the Second Amendment March forums there is a post about this. Check here:http://secondamendmentforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=28 I was pretty shocked to learn about this but apparently it is correct. Not sure I would try it but it looks legal.

Excerpts:

6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.

Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.

FOR MORE INFO SEE http://WWW.OPENCARRY.ORG and click on forums, then click on MICHIGAN.

[Play Hard]

I wonder if anybody has tested this loophole. Walk into Cobo during a Redwings game with a revolver on your hip. Might this be considered "brandishing"?

[butters]

By Michigan law it wouldn't be considered brandishing. I can guarantee you'd get stopped and most likely arrested by those ignorant of the law. Not to mention I believe Cobo is a privately owned entity so it would be up to them if you could carry there or not. What is really interesting is that technically speaking you could open carry in a K-12 public school or public university. I am not going to test it out however.

[Play Hard]

Two more questions:

1) I don't currently have a CPL and I'm going on a trip in Michigan. I understand I may put my unloaded pistol in my luggage in the trunk and drive. But is there anything illegal from carrying that suitcase into a hotel room and leaving it there for the night? Would this be considered a concealed pistol in Michigan?

2) I'm considering purchase of a Kel Tec Sub 2000 folding rifle. http://www.mouseguns.com/sub2000/sub2000.htm Can anybody tell me if this weapon must be licensed in Michigan due to the fact that it folds? If concealed (say in a case under front seat of my car) would this illegal?

[freakshow10mm]

1. No. It is not illegal.

2. Yes, it is under 30 inches when it folds so it must be registered as a pistol. It is legal to carry unloaded in a case anywhere in your vehicle when you are en route to a lawful activity per MCL.

3. Are you a MI resident? If not, you may not possess a handgun in MI unless you have a carry permit from another state.

My advice is to get your CPL as soon as you can. It eliminates a lot of BS.

[highorder]

2. Yes, it is under 30 inches when it folds so it must be registered as a pistol.

I might be mistaken, but I think that the Sub 2000 does NOT have to be registered as a pistol because it is NOT operable in its folded condition.

Its been a few years since I was behind the counter in MI, so I can't be certain.

[freakshow10mm]

No, it still can fold to less than 30 inches so it's a pistol. Because it doesn't fire when folded (to less than 26 inches) it's not a SBR.

The capability to be fired is for determining if it's a SBR or not. If it's less than 26 OAL and can't be fired when it's folded, then it's not a SBR.

This weapon is specifically named in the state paperwork the ATF gave me during the compliance interview from the ATF.

[highorder]

ah yes, the SBR routine... Thank you for refreshing my memory!

Most places, its just different paperwork, but in Michigan, SBR's are so dangerous they are not allowed to exist...

[Play Hard]

What's a SBR?

[freakshow10mm]

Short Barrel Rifle

[Knightrider03m]

I hope that it works

[langenc]

I talked with Sen Tony Stamos last week on his visit to my town. He was receptive but noted it is a house bill

When your rep/senator visits your town get hold of his/her ear.. The em what you want. Get friend or 2 to do the same.

Would be nice to get rid of registration, also..

[Hungry Seagull]

awesome!!!!

[2WheelsGood]

Sorry to drag up this ancient thread, but does anyone know what ever happened with this? Obviously the pistol-free zones are still in place, so I assume it wasn't successful, but any more info?

[BluEyes]

Sorry to drag up this ancient thread, but does anyone know what ever happened with this? Obviously the pistol-free zones are still in place, so I assume it wasn't successful, but any more info?

The link in the OP takes you to the history on the bill. Basically, read once and referred to the judiciary committee.

From that link, if you click "bills" in the top left of the page, it will take you to the Michigan Legislature page where you can look up any bill introduced and find its status.