[Mike Irwin]

Problem is, I don't really care that much about these guns, and I know even less.


I'm doing it just because I'm so severely pissed off at the VPC's a) BS little flash movie, and b) because they used images belonging to Oleg without his permission, and against the statements on his website.

What can I expect these days? Guns from what countries? What kind of prices? Calibers?

Any type to avoid? Any to recommend?

I definitely want one without the stupid "thumbhole" stock...

I should have bought a Roumanian one last year when I was on vacation in Iowa...

[cslinger]

VEPR or Krebs. Best of the Best. The VEPR is best described as the AK made by HK. It has a good trigger, feels like an HK to an extent and is more accurate then any AK I have ever used. Not that I am Joe Marksman or anything.

Arsenal USA seems to make some darn good traditional ones.

If you get an AK get it in 7.62x39. Cheap ammo, cheap mags and lots of cheap fun. It is almost like a big caliber .22 in terms of fun.

Those are my thoughts.

Chris

[Joe Demko]

No Maadi. Trust me.

[cslinger]

I would also stay away from the WASRs because they were originally single stacks that have been milled out to take double stacks and have varying quality. Most work and many ain't bad but some are just plain horrible when it comes to magazines fitting correctly.

[Poodleshooter]

Go to http://www.ak-47.net/ Check out the forums there for reviews on AK's.
Cslinger gave you the top of the line, here's the low end evaluation:
I've got a Romanian SAR-1 that I'm happy with,presumably the model you're lamenting having not purchased. Expect accuracy similar to a Winchester 94. Minute of "pie plate" is the norm, and accuracy gets much worse when the barrel gets hot. Still, for shooting soda cans at 25 yds, it's an excellent centerfire plinker.
Your best price on it will be $299.95 from Dark Sun Surplus at the Richmond Showplace show. Magazines are $7-11 at the same show.

[gun-fucious]

Veprs are very nicely made
http://www.robarm.com/
Krebs are very true to form
http://www.krebscustom.com/KalashnikovRifles.html

The Krebs vepr is what scares Sarah the most!

on the other side of the expense coin are the fore mentioned SARs & the WASRs
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Laminated_Stock_Romanian_SAR_1_7_62x39_Rifle.html

[762x51]

Want a cheap one? Get a Romanian SAR-1. About $300.

Want a expensive but VERY high quality one? Get an AK-103 from AK-USA. About $700 but with the added bonus of being an evil black rifle.

http://www.aimsurplus for the Romanian
http://www.ak-103.com for the AK-103

[FPrice]

My dealer is getting excited over the new Saiga rifles. They come in .223, 7.62x39, and .308. The prices are pretty low and they accept AK magazines. I've looked at the .223 he has and it seems a bit nicer than the SAR-1 to me. The stock fits me better.

You may want to look at one of these. His prices here in Mass are in the mid to high $200's.

[gun-fucious]

this will bring you up to speed on Marc Krebs work:
http://www.cruffler.com/Features/FEB-02/review-February-02.html

[Mike Irwin]

Poodle,

I'm definitely going to check out Dark Sun. I like their prices on a lot of things.



Frosty, I'll keep my eyes peeled for one of the Saigas.

It would be interesting to get one in .223...

I've already got an SKS in 7.62...



As for the high end of the high end of the high end, that would be nice, but I really don't want to spend the money, and I think it would piss the VPC off a LOT more if I were to go functional but CHEAP. :D

[jrhead75]

I pretty much agree with all of the above. I've got a SAR-1, and it'll do "minute of pie plate" at 100yds with cheap Wolf ammo ($1.59 at CTD last time I bought any). It's great as a knockaround plinker. Add a Kobra red dot to it, and the groups tighten up noticeably.

[El Tejon]

Smilin' Tejon has a deal for you. All pre-owned by NRA Life member little old ladies who only shot on Sundays!:D

PM sent.

[Kamicosmos]

I too have been thinking of picking up an AK. Probably one of the Romanian SARs though. I want to get one before next September. (Yes, I am negative and cynical about that. And Yes, I do write my congress critters)

But, I haven't heard about this VPC thing, which is surprising since I spent so much time here.


What's up with that? (I don't neccessarily want to visit the site to see it though.)

[gun-fucious]

check out the Thread in Legal & Political
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42691

[Aikibiker]

The saiga is a neat little rifle, but it doesn't accept full capacity magazines as it comes from the factory. I have been looking into the modification to full cap mags and pistol grip. It seems like it will be an easy project once I get the needed US made parts to do it legally.

I can't wait until the ban goes away and we can get brand new full capacity mags from Russia. The five and ten round plastic ones the Saiga comes with are rather impressive.

[Intune]

Mike, cslinger speaks the truth. His AK varient is a fine weapon. Just hefting & firing it is proof enough. However, my SAR 1 throws the same bullet at the same rate with a little less accuracy (I said that for his benefit ;) ) and I don't stroll it up to the shooting line in a velvet lined baby carriage! :neener: HA! Chris doesn't either but my point is that my SAR is a toss around weapon. It depends on what you want it for. None of them are tack drivers but they will all give you the ability to throw tacks! Each & every time. Truly amazing weapons. Git ya some!!!

[son of a gun]

Mike Irwin
Problem is, I don't really care that much about these guns, and I know even less.


You might want to just wait and see if the AWB expires.:cool:

[Kamicosmos]

Gun-Fucious, thanks for the link. I don't hang out in L&P much.

looks like a long thread, bed time reading for me.

[CZ52GUY]

I'll tell you a little about mine.

SAR-1, great first AK, but has some issues...gas block and front sight cant being common, as well as trigger slap.

For most comprehensive info' on these weapons, visit http://linx310.nothingbutguns.com/index.shtml

This kid really knows his stuff and his tutorials are so easy a monkey could follow.

SAR-1, plan on a FCG upgrade for most (mine doesn't slap me any more)...a guy over at AK-47.NET said it best..."there are probably less than a dozen stock SAR-1's in existence".

I still like mine a lot, bought a Kobra red dot for it...it's my every day AK.

I paid $370 OTD locally...probably would have paid about the same long distance with shipping and transfer.


SSR-56, some info' from the seller here
http://www.arsenalusa.com/

I bought it because I had an itch for another one...the fit and finish is far superior to my SAR...I have the blond wood furniture. The trigger is quite good...no canting of gas block or front sight...the beauty risks becoming a safe queen because I really like it's good looks.

No side rail limits options on optics...but not really an issue for this type of rifle and again, I expect to shoot this one less than the others.

I paid around $550 OTD which is quite competitive for this model in my area.


My latest one (just took it to the range a couple weeks back)...is an Arsenal (not to be confused with Arsenal USA) from Nevada based on Bulgarians...their web site is here
http://www.arsenalinc.com/index1.htm

This is a milled AK vs. the other two which are stamped. I bought the SAM7S with integrated side rail for mounting optics. This is my "tactical AK" with black polymer furniture. A little heavier because it's milled but muzzle break and polymer vs. wood makes it just front heavy enough to make follow ups a tad easier...I'm 235lbs...and 7.62 x 39 has fairly mild recoil anyway so it's not an issue for me.

I decided to go a slightly different route with optics...bought a Belarus made siderail to weaver mount from CDNN ($40) and a BSA red dot from Natchez ($25). That's right, a budget red dot...I really have had great luck with it on my Mossy HD shotty so I figured, low cost, low risk...I was right. Got excellent results from rest with it...easy on and off, and doesn't break the bank.

The SAM-7S is easily the most "Homeland Defense" ready of my AK's. Feel is much tighter both at the range and simply handling it. The SSR-56 is quite good, but the SAM-7S really is something special in an AK. I've got some Bulgy waffles for it and some more on order which work and look great (yeah, it also has a "mall commando quality" to it also I guess).

I paid about $750 for it including shipping and transfer...could have done better if I looked around a little more...but I wanted it, I got it.


There are MANY choices out there.

If this is an "I'll show you VPC" statement, you might prefer the lower end...you'll have something practical based on intent of design, reliable, but hardly refined in appearance or providing match performance.

If you're willing to let an AK grow on you, consider the Arsenal Inc. line...the 101S (high cap version) can be found in the low $500's range and will give you a very fine AK rifle you can be proud of, without the FCG or cant issues of a Romanian...you're looking at polymer instead of the more traditional wood...but I think this may be $ for $ the best buy in AK's (the next time I get the itch, I may just get that one)...for more info' on the 101S you can check the online catalog here
http://www.gunsnstuff.net/ .

I really like my AK's...I've had great fun with them and appreciate them for what they are. It's a great homeland defense weapon, ammo' is cheap and still readily available as are full capacity magazines. They're reliable as can be...and if you choose carefully, you may be pleasantly surprised with their performance.

Good luck!

CZ52'

[Intune]

All I'm gonna say is that I got my '02 Romy SAR 1 for $280 from a wholesaler in Idaho with a 10,30 & 40 rnd mag. Straight as an arrow gas tube, rocks & rolls. I'm not embarrassed to whip it out. Now AR guys... ;)
I think the ammo is cheaper than you could reload for. That's a plus! The reaction of most people when you pull it out is worth the money alone. Is that not true guys? I like the old world heavy varnish, some go black plastic furniture. It's ALL good!

[Mike Irwin]

Well, I thank everyone for the information, but as is wont to happen, my plans have changed DRASTICALLY!

After I posted this, I saw that Wild Alaska is offering HK PSPs for $589...

I have always wanted a squeeze cocker, so that's what I'm going to get.

[Intune]

Not the same, how could you, after all the effort, man, you dog! Enjoy! You'll come around in the next gun or two. Fill er up! Congrats! Great deal!

[Jack19]

Arsenal SA M-7. Not the cheapest AK out there, but not the most expensive either. But, it's US made, with a milled receiver and the quality is second to none!! Almost too nice to shoot and you'll get decent groups at 100 yards...unlike lots of AKs.

[FPrice]

"The saiga is a neat little rifle, but it doesn't accept full capacity magazines as it comes from the factory."

They don't? The Saiga .223 that my dealer has readily accepts a 40-round AK mag. Of course, I don't know if the importer has modified it or not, but I tried it and it works.

Mike Dillon has 7.62x39 mags on sale for some low prices. I am starting to stock up in case I decide to get one.

[Nightcrawler]

The "converted" Saigas are usually done by Hesse. A friend of mine has one of these. It gave him a three round burst once, and the magazine release was a little stiff. Probably can be fixed by replacing the trigger group with a RSA or something similar.

[MAKOwner]

Highcap mags are not supposed to snap in place in factory Saigas, and even if they do there is no feed ramp in the gun (built into factory Saiga mags), so you have to add a feedramp, either a real AK part or you can home-build/rig one, not rocket science... The .223 is supposedly harder to get mags functioning in, more mods required either to the gun or the mags to fit. I want to get one in .223 to play with anyway though. The 7.62 model takes like 30 seconds of filing on the mag catch and standard AK mags will fit though...

[Sean Cloherty]

I've had some reliability and accuracy issues with Wolf in 7.62x39 as well as .45ACP. I would recommend the Barnaul ammo which is also a Russian import at roughly the same prices but more accurate (and more smelly) than the Wolf.

[Mike Irwin]

Dark Sun was at the Dale City show yesterday.

Didn't have squat for nothing in the AK line.

Had a couple of Saigas, and a couple of CETME G3 look-alikes.



As for Barnaul being smellier than Wolf, I just don't see how that is possible. Wolfe stinks so badly of ammonia that it's not even funny.

[rock jock]

I've owned the VEPR II and now own the Kreb's AK103. The Kreb's is a better weapon IMO.

[DMK]

Mike, if you change your mind, you may want to check out the SAR1s when you come across them. If the sights and gas block are on straight you should be OK. The only other major issue these have is trigger slap, but that's easily fixed with low cost replacement parts or dremel time.

Like you, I just wanted one to be able to say I own an AK and stick it to those who take issue with owning them. I bought a clean used one from a fellow Internet gun junkie a couple months ago. It was a pretty cheap deal and even came with a big bag of mags.

I'm not even sure I like the crude little Romanian plinker. It doesn't hold a candle to the SKS for quality IMO. It has sort of a Liberator pistol quality to it. I'm glad I bought it though. It is light, handy and it seems to work just as advertised.

[444]

So on these Arsenal rifles built in Las Vegas: do they accept standard AK mags ? What do you do in these ones that are in 5.56 for magazines ?

These things really look stupid on their website with the small magazine. The big curved mag is what gives the AK it's look.

CZ52GUY, can you give me a run down on the different models and variations are offered by Arsenal ? Their website is tedious at best. First of all it is in metric :barf: Then they tell you stuff that is meaningless like muzzle velocity and the fact that it is a gas operated, magazine fed................. on every rifle instead of giving the features of this rifle that make it different from the others.

[gun-fucious]

heres sweet irony

buy an AK at the Silverado gunshow in Gaithersburg

October 18 & 19, 2003
Montgomery County Agricultural Fairgrounds
Exit 11 Off I-270, Gaithersburg, MD

the guys from "The Gun Rack" should have something scarey looking

[CZ52GUY]

Pressed for time this week...sent you a PM with some stuff.

These photos at least are better...

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12321288

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12427684


I've seen the green furniture version at a shop I frequent...it's a nice AK that's difficult to distinguish from my SAM-7S in fit and finish.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12503840

The full capacity Bulgarian waffles in .223 are very difficult to find...although since I'm committed to 7.62x39 I've not looked as hard as I might if otherwise. I believe you can find them...not as easy as 7.62x39 where Waffles are rare but available, polymers in general are easier to find www.aimsurplus.com, and steel 30's are WIDELY available under $10 a piece www.cdnninvestments.com.

Good luck!

CZ52'

[cookie]

I've had quite a few AKs, and in my opinion, the best I've owned, by far has been the Arsenal, Inc. (http://www.arsenalinc.com) SAM-7 Classic. It was a limited run model, but the standard SAM-7 is built just as well.

[CZ52GUY]

...of the SAM7.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/sam7.pdf

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

[corruptone]

Check out AK-USA, http://www.ak-103.com, if you haven't already made a purchasing decision. You can get a Saiga that has been converted the right way. I personally own one and I have two friends who each own one as well (we bought them at the same time). I've had a SAR-1, and a Polytech, and the AK-103K that I have is buy far the best. I've also written a review of mine that is on that website. Believe it or not, my AK-103K is more accurate than my preban Bushy M4gery.

[FPrice]

Honestly, I just walked into my local gun dealer to say hi and maybe just to look around a little. We got to talking about AK-style rifles and he pointed out a SAR-1 over behind his desk. He offered it to me for a ridiculously low price. With three hi-cap mags.

What could I do???

I became a soon-to-be SAR-1 owner.

(I am soooo embarassed :rolleyes: )

[ny32182]

I have a VEPR K 7.62x39 on order right now. I bought it thinking it would accept normal AK mags, and have never heard anything to the contrary. In fact I just got my shipment of Bulgarian waffle mags in today.

I just read on ak-47.net that VEPRs do not accept normal AK mags. Of course this would be true of the other calibers, but the 7.62x39 model accepts normal AK mags, right? If so, was the reciever modified in some way to take them? Any owners care to comment on the fit and function of normal AK mags with the VEPRs?

[Nightcrawler]

I just read on ak-47.net that VEPRs do not accept normal AK mags. Of course this would be true of the other calibers, but the 7.62x39 model accepts normal AK mags, right?

Yes, they do.

IT's the unmodified SAIGA carbines that don't take regular AK mags.

[goon]

VEPRs do use regular AK mags.

[BTR]

Robinson's Veprs w/ the pistol grip take reg. ak mags. I heard he cuts out the mag well to make them fit, so I suppose there are low-cap veprs out there.

[Shalako]

How does the SLR-95 rank with the Vepr, Polytech and the AK-103?

[Gewehr98]

I bought mine for $219.95 when Diane Feinstein sent out those postcards to us Kalifornia residents with AK's on them, when was that, about 1996? I *had* to have whatever gun set her off, so I ordered the Bulgarian SLR-95. Heavy little booger for an AK, milled receiver, butthole thumbstock, and a supposedly Steyr hammer-forged barrel, chrome-lined to boot. K-Var got an order from me, and shortly my US-made, ATF-legal pistol grip conversion kit arrived.

My goodness, did that gun ever shoot! All the "AK's can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside" arguments are like so much poo gas after I ran a few of my 123gr handloads (intended for a friend's target-modded SKS at the time) through the SLR-95. I understand that the recent batch of Arsenal USA SA M-7 rifles, as assembled in Nevada, are every bit as well-made as the earlier Bulgarian SLR-95's and SLR-96's. Same for the SLR-101's. Be forewarned, they still go for considerably more than the stamped receiver variants. Here's one for $569.00:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976379033.htm


And here's a typical group for the SLR-95 (Pay attention, Mike!):


http://www.mauser98.com/26sepaktarget.jpg

[000Buck]

Is that with open sights?! Nice group, especially for a rifle that is supposedly so inaccurate. I hope my Vepr K is even half as good as that....

[Gewehr98]

That group was with iron sights, and the target frame moving around in the wind. I was going for a 5-round group, but the buzzer sounded for a cease fire first... :eek:

http://www.mauser98.com/aksmall.jpg

[ny32182]

My VEPR K still isn't here yet.:fire:

[000Buck]

I dont think your difficulty in getting you VEPR on time is anything new, the guy I got mine from at the gunshow said they were pretty much always back ordered and it just took a while to get one once you order it. Its worth the wait though!!

[eatatjoes]

getting my ak clone was not a problem, it's those darn kobra sights that are hard to track down.

[Coronach]

Mike-

I was in the same boat as you a while back. I was trying to decide between a 'high end' SAM-7 From Arsenal, and a low-end SAR-1.

I went with the SAR-1. It is combat accurate, stone reliable, ugly as sin. Everything an AK should be, for about $300.

Now, if I ever get one in 5.54, I might go high-end.

Mike

[SapperLeader]

As much as I want a VEPR, Ive been leaning toward getting a saiga and converting it to take hicap magazines. I think it will make a fun project, and the saigas have been really cheap lately.

[000Buck]

The quality of the Saigas is REALLY high for the $$$. I have two, and they are much better quality appearance wise than my SAR or WASR. Only my VEPR is nicer. They are all completely reliable.

[LynnMassGuy]

Holy Crap!!! This is completely unrelated...sort of. I just saw the VPC website for the first time. The VPC website is just pages and pages of pure BS!!!! Thats the downside of the internet. People can just post lies and anti-gun dummies just take it all in as fact!:fire: :banghead:

[BigG]

A Valmet's got a gnarly flashhider/bayonet lug. :cool:

[Werewolf]

Fprice stated:

Mike...

My dealer is getting excited over the new Saiga rifles. They come in .223, 7.62x39, and .308. The prices are pretty low and they accept AK magazines. I've looked at the .223 he has and it seems a bit nicer than the SAR-1 to me. The stock fits me better.

Uhhhhhh....
Nope!

Went to a gunshop today that had both the 7.62X39 and .223 versions of the Saiga Rifles. Very nice weapons just from handling them but the 7.62X39 will absolutely not accept AK mags. We tried a whole bunch of them and none worked.

It appeared that you could modify the magazine locking lub by knociking about 1/4" to 3/8" off of it but then the Saiga Rifle mags wouldn't work. It also appeared that the AK mags would be moddable but not easily.

In summary based on my experience today I'd have to say that NO - AK mags don't work in the SAIGA rifles.

[762x51]

Werewolf:

His dealer may have some Saigas that have been converted to except standard AK mags. Many companies out there are doing this now. The .223 and 762x39 version are fairly easily converted. As a matter of fact....there isn't too much that CAN'T be done to a Saiga. GREAT project rifle. Here's my .223 Saiga built by AK-USA.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/198651/Side2small.jpg

[ny32182]

Photoshop?

I just got the call that my VEPR finally got here, so I go to pick it up tomorrow.:)

I'll post a range report when I get a chance.

[Werewolf]

762X51 - Say HEY! How'd you get the pistol grip on yours and is it hard to modify the weapon to put a pistol grip on it (cost)? That's what I want. I'm gonna buy a Saiga Rifle tomorrow (I think and if the dealer still has it). $259 NIB. Is this a good price?

I've been reading up on the Saiga and everyone seems very pleased with them.

Is there a good site for buying accessories and parts?

[MiniZ]

762X51's rifle is a full custom by AK USA-not cheap, but you get what you pay for.

The conversion to PG and high cap is covered over on AK47.net and the AK side of AR15.com. It can be done pretty cheap as a DIY project.

[ny32182]

I've got a question for anyone that owns a VEPR (picking mine up after work today and taking it home for initial cleaning, etc).

Do these things come covered in cosmoline? Are they subsequently prone to run away full auto if not properly cleaned before the first range trip? Or is it safe to chamber a round or two in my apartment to check proper function without the risk of a slamfire? Thanks.

[762x51]

Werewolf:

762X51's rifle is a full custom by AK USA-not cheap, but you get what you pay for.

The conversion to PG and high cap is covered over on AK47.net and the AK side of AR15.com. It can be done pretty cheap as a DIY project.

What he said. :D If you are mechanically inclined, the pistol grip conversion shouldn't be TOO difficult. Be aware though that converting to a pistol grip config will require you to install a certain number of US made parts in order to acheive 922r compliance. Just do a search for Saiga conversion over on the AK board and you will find all the info.

ttbadboy:

Almost all new guns, Vepr included, have some kind of protectant on them from the factory. Most here, myself included, will strongly suggest cleaning the rifle before shooting it the first time. You never know what kind of gunk could be in the barrel, FCG, action, etc. And do yourself and your neighbors a favor.....get some snap caps....don't function test with live ammo in your apartment. :uhoh:

[mrapathy2000]

anybody know about the RF-109 ak atlantafirearms.com is selling?

[762x51]

The RF-109's are WASR-10's that Atlantic sends out to Ohio Rapid Fire for the standard capacity mag conversion, shortening of the barrel, installation of a muzzle break, and refinishing.

[Langenator]

I'm pretty much a newbie to AK variants...when it comes to quality for cost:

How do the VEPR, AK-103, and SA-M7 compare?

[000Buck]

Quality for lowest cost would go to a converted Saiga if you could do most of the work yourself. I have a Vepr, and the Saigas are just slightly behind in finish, and cost only $169 new. Put another $150 and you could convert it to an AK clone which is what a new SAR1 costs, but much nicer finish.

[FPrice]

A NIB SAR-1 w/3 30-round mags. Hopefully off to the range first thing Saturday morning to try it out.