[Nightfall]

Let's take a step back from reality for a sec, folks...

The year is 2004, and a time warp has just been discovered. Scientists say it's a one way trip, one time use, and they've determined it pops out in America. Specifically, in January of 1942. You all know what is about to happen.

You have one chance to send back any modern small arm (for the sake of argument, say this includes any necessary ammunition specs, plans, manufacturing processes, etc. to create said small arm in mass for the troops) to help the USA fight World War II. It can be any firearm, ranging from a bolt action rifle to a belt fed machine gun. Weapons may include ONE scope or other optical device. No other attachments, no "I'd send back an M2 with an M1 tank attached to it." :p

So, what gun would you send our troops for WWII? Keep in mind the environments they'll be in, and the type of battles they'll be fighting.

[Mike Irwin]

Quite frankly, none of them.

[Chipperman]

How about an M1A? Basically a Garand with more capacity.

[Keith]

I'm with Mike... I can't think of a small arm that would be a great improvement over what they already had. Most of the weapons in use today are poorer than what they used then. I don't think trading a Garand for an M16 would be much of an improvement!

Now, if we could send anti-tank weapons, night vision devices or something like that...

Keith

[Kharn]

AK74.
They could make a lot more of them than M1Carbines or Thompsons in the same amount of time, with the reliability and dependability that would be loved by the soldiers (especially during the winter). Combat accuracy is all you need at carbine/thompson distances, so the AK should work just fine.

Kharn

[Daniel T]

I'd send a 1911!

Oh, wait, wouldn't need to. :p

[Hkmp5sd]

Barrett .50 Sniper Rifle w/ DNWS412 Day/Night Sight 4-12x80

Won't greatly impact the course of the war, but may save a few lives. Then again, owning the night just *might* impact the war.

[telewinz]

An M79 Grenade launcher, it would give us a nice edge.

[Captain Scarlet]

some suggestions:

*stinger missiles
*DRAGON anti tank weapon
*Plasma rifle 40 watt range
:D

[CZ-100]

I will 2nd the vote for the AK-47:cool:

[jercamp45]

Telewinz's M-79 suggestion is an excellant one!
An RPG-7 would also be of use......especially with good optics.
The AK is not a bad idea...but I do not think the Ordance Board would have gone for it...production was committed at that time to weapons in .50 cal, 30-06, 30 carbine, 45 acp, and 38 revolvers.
A two front war means keep it simple, keep it good and build a crap load of 'em.
Personally, I think I would send back an HK UMP .45 with all the manufacturing techniques and tools necessary to set it up. It would be light, reliable and accurate...far better than the 'greasegun', though not as easy to produce perhaps. And better thump than the carbine(off paper anyway). Equipped with a good suppressor, it would outclass the Delisle carbine for special ops, I am sure Wild Bill Donovan would have loved it. And the supressor technology can be directly applied the 1911.
AND the knowledge of plastic and polyer construction may help alot interms of aircraft-ballistic missle-rocket production too. As well as providing a post war technological boom from tupperware to space suits.
Only ONE accessory?:what:
Well, I am sure a reddot sight....docter, optima, holosight, c-more, etc would be quite useful...though I am not sure the tecnology of the time could quite handle the sophisticated electronics(I wonder about the polymer too!), but, since we can include the manufacturing processes...this too would be a boom for the US in terms of electronics for aircraft, ships, computers, etc. As well as giving the US Grunt a pretty handy sighting system(maybe mounted scout style on the Garand, carbine and UMP, model of 1943.
If my technological interference caused some sort of alteration in the fabled space-time continuim...at least the US has some neat tools to use to help out and a new subgun/PDW to equip US troops. I'd drop all the Thompsons in England or behind the lines to Partisians.
If I was going to stay back there to assist in production...rest assured a tricked out 1911 would be on my hip in a quality IWB and I would add to the 1911A1 production by introducing the 'modern technique', and decent sights.
Ahh, to play in the realms of mind...that which lies beyond Space-Time!!
:D
Jercamp45

[Kharn]

CZ100:
The AK74's slightly different from the -47, it uses 5.45x39 (higher velocity, no basketball trajectory, MUCH worse fragmentation, like on the level of .223) and has a nice muzzle brake that is known for eliminating almost all muzzle rise when fired on full auto.

Kharn

[Covey Rise]

I would send them all SAW's! (squad automatic weapons)

[MagKnightX]

CETME Modelo B with detachable nightvision scopes. Good rifles, good power, good ammunition, and don't require plastics.

[Keith]

Most of the stuff you guys are coming up with was already around - or something that filled the same niche was!

The German Sturmgewehr was the inspiration for the AK series and was in use by 1943.
The MG34 or 42 is a much better machine gun than the SAW It was fully portable had a higher rate of fire and heavier punch.
They also has all manner of rifle grenades as well as the Bazooka and that British thingy that fired a grenade with compressed air.

And a red dot sight? Come on! You want to go into the Ardenne in December depending on some battery powered thingy attached to your rifle?

Keith

[DMK]

I can't think of any small arms that would do much better than they had already, but those boys sure could have used Kevlar vests, MREs and modern first aid supplies. Especially if Truman changes his mind about dropping those two A-bombs.

[CZ-100]

:what:

CZ100:
The AK74's slightly different from the -47, it uses 5.45x39 (higher velocity, no basketball trajectory, MUCH worse fragmentation, like on the level of .223) and has a nice muzzle brake that is known for eliminating almost all muzzle rise when fired on full auto.

Yes I know the differance, when reading the posts I was thinking AK-47 and read your post and read AK-47 instead of AK-74.

see one thing read another...:eek:

[4v50 Gary]

Instead of a weapon, how about plans for an A-10 or a Trident sub?

[jercamp45]

Follow the rules AND assist a war torn nation back then.
Since we can ony send one weapon and one optical thingy...I tried to chose the best one I could think of that could benefit the average grunt, AND give the US a technological edge over the Germans, Japanese and future Soviet threat, plus the unseen variables that my interference MIGHT create.
Naw...I do not use a reddot...though I might one day experiment with with a Docter that uses it batteries very slowly from the sound of it. But I am of the mind to keep it simple on my battle guns. Nothing terribly fancy.
It was the smallest package that had the most collateral uses I could fit into the parameters of the mental exercise!!
Trident subs do not quite fit in the scenerio......unless we alter it.
Quite frankly, we won! And things did not turn out too bad...so, why bother?Just playing like everyone else!
Jercamp45

[HankB]

Would a man-portable nuclear demolition charge (backpack nuke) - with all the plans necessary to build it and manufacture the nuclear material - be within the spirit of this discussion?

Imagine a small nuke dropped on Tokyo during the Doolittle Raid . . .

[Stickjockey]

Gotta agree with Chipperman. The only drawback(?) to the M1 Garand (in my opinion at least) was the en-bloc clip system which didn't allow a soldier to "top off" his magazine.

[Brian Dale]

I vote for the M14; give it a modern night-vision scope.

[Covey Rise]

A SAW puts out a lot more ammo per minute than anything they had back then once consider how often they had to change barrels, move positions, get more ammo, and so forth. You put ww2 people against modern day guys with just small arms, the modern day guys wipe em out, they can lay down more fire and keep it going longer, and the modern day guys can move a whole lot faster with more ammo. The ww2 guys would run out of ammo and couldn't resupply because they would be completely pinned down. It's not even close! Ask anyone in the military today, that saw action in Korea.

[Keith]

Covey,

You're just wrong. The MG42 had a rate of fire that could be adjusted from 900 to 1200 rpm! And the barrels could be changed in seconds - you flip a toggle and it falls out, stick another one in and lock the toggle down - 3 to 5 seconds!
And it was firing an 8mm round that was a lot more effective against vehicles and buildings than the .223 the SAW fires.

It was truly a devastating weapon on the battlefield.

Keith

[Sunray]

Easy. An Abrams tank and/or the metallurgy etc to make the armour. The Sherman was a piece of junk. It was called a 'Ronson' for a reason. Plan 'B' would be a complete engine out of an F-86. Although, state of the art, night/IR kit wouldn't be bad either. And $100 for my ma to invest in IBM. In 1942, my da was busy being in the Canadian Army in England.

[Mike Irwin]

As for the sheer volumn of fire concept...

I sincerely doubt if any unit today can beat a Soviet WW II unit armed with PPsH submachine guns for sheer volumn of fire generated.

17 guys all armed with a submachine gun firing at 900 rpm...

[Covey Rise]

and my wife's uncle landed at Normandy and went inland and survived. I asked them if they ever picked up German guns, MG42 or their auto rifle, and they both said, no, they where junk, they took so much maintenance to keep them working it was futile. They both agreed that the MG42 was bad news but after a sustained attack they would overheat all the barrels and could be taken out easily. They both informed me half the time they would pick a german weapon up is was inoperable.

[Abominable No-Man]

Well, it depends. Are we also sending back the logistical train that could keep this stuff up and running? Or are we to assume that the WWII fighting men would have to pretty much make do with the technology, skills, and tools they had at the time?

Okay here's my thoughts:

For small arms, I would personallly have to nix the idea of the M14, as much as I like that particular rifle (IMO, it is superior to the M1, but you know what they say about opinions....), and I would have to say the BM59. After all, it basically was an M-1 with a PIP kit on it (rechambered for 7.62
NATO, 20-round magazine adaptor, & bipod). Don't laugh, but I would probably send the MAC-10 (for use in the Pacific jungles- ditch the Thompson and the M-3). Definitely the M79 40mm grenade launcher and the LAW, and that's about it.

For the Sherman tanks, a PIP kit consisting of a diesel engine upgrade and reactive armor, and possibly a larger gun.

For aircraft......that's iffy. I've ALWAYS thought it would be kind of interesting to see what would happen if a company of infantry called for airsupport and an couple of AH-64's made the gun run ("What the hell is that, Sir?" "Don't know- but it's one of ours......"). I would think that an A1D Skyraider would be about the best thing to send back. Great aircraft.

Larger weapons- Patriot missiles (with a full crew of techs and supply) to be stationed in England and Europe, to knock down Germany's late-war
attempts at jet aircraft and V1/2 rockets.

Other equipment: SCUBA gear and wetsuits for the combat swimmers and UDT, aviation-grade NVG's (for ground and air use, but only to be issued to squadrons of P61's and other aircraft that could get above the range of ainti-aircraft guns and snipers/commandos). Bunny boots to replace the shoepacks for the winter fighting in Europe and Jungle boots for the pacific.
MRE's. Thinsulate and gor-tex. SINCGARS radios, motorola walkie-talkies, and radio earpieces.

ANM

[trooper]

Guys,

if you just HAVE to come up with all those fictional outfitting threads, couldn't you at least choose something entertaining like the LOTR thread back at TFL?

They all seem to end the same way: everybody names his own favourite baby and that's about it...


Regards,

Trooper

[seeker_two]

FAL or Barrett .50 sniper rifle w/ 3rd Gen NVD scope....

[Trebor]

AK 47 with a folding stock. I'd pitch it as a suplemental weapon to replace the M-1 Carbine and Thompson and M3 submachineguns and as the primary weapon for paratroopers (hence the folding stock). For the package size, the AK gives a lot of firepower in the assault and, given a example of the gun and ammo to reverse engineer, would have been within the manufacturing capabilites of the time to produce.

Second choice would be the M-14 or BM 59.

[Grey54956]

We all forget that the weapons in WWII, at least US infantry weapons were pretty sufficient. The Garand is still so cool that I want one.

If I could send anything back, it would be a GE Minigun. D-Day probably would be a lot smooter if a few modified gunships could fly in, saturate the area with fire, then fly off. It would also make a nice tank or armoured car mounted weapon. Let's see the MG42 try to even touch a minigun's rate of fire.

If you need an accessory, a nice pair of night vision goggles would be fine.

[Brian Williams]

I would send an excellent optic either and ACOG of a Elcan anddo something that would bump the idiot off the Spec board that said the Garand must be clip fed so it would have been designed with a detachable mag. If the BAR and Garand had compatable Mags????


I would disagree that a modern Squad would have wiped out a wwII era squad. But it would be a close call.

OBTW even though a modern soldier can carry more ammo, a WWII soldier had way more hits per 100,000 rounds.

[Daedalus]

Davey Crockett Recoilless Rifle :evil:

[Dilettante]

A big rifle with a hollow stock, containing detailed plans for an atomic bomb.
Probably on microfilm (or whatever miniaturizing technology they had in 1942).
Anyone who could discover a time warp would have ways of getting the plans.
I hate atomic weapons and I wish nobody had them, but if we'd gotten the bomb a couple of years earlier it would have prevented tremendous misery.

[roscoe]

Generation III night vision goggles, hands down.

[4v50 Gary]

Covey Rise - more stories from your uncle please.:)

[Covey Rise]

LOOK UP HIS NAME MY UNCLE WAS MARVIN FINGER, HE DID 2 TOURS, 3 TIMES HE SAW HIS COMPANY DOWN TOO LESS THAN 30 MEN.

DONT JOKE.

HE CANT EVEN SLEEP NOW.

GOD BLESS YOU

[Med 10]

Hey, Covey, chill out man. I think you need to do some more research on the MG 42 as well as other German small arms of WW2. Junk is DEFINITLY not how I would describe them. In fact I have heard that if anything they were over engineered, slightly heavy, and too expensive to mass produce.

The MG42 was probably the finest GPMG of the war.

Also, have you heard of caps lock? and no offense, but are you 12?

[mephisto]

Leave him alone. I would like some satellites for real time information. Troop movement, bomb assessment , GPS and a good weather report.

[Covey Rise]

and were never in ww2 or went up against a mg42.

nough said fools,

later,

no offense,

caps mean business.

[G21NE]

Night vision, GPS, and most importantly, Radios. Imagine how much better D-Day would have went if they had all 3.

One of the major problems was that the paratroopers were scattered all over and couldn't find their units. All of these would have helped.

Although I have heard of some accounts that the scattering of troops helped to confuse the Germans, they weren't sure where the main thrust of the invasion was occurring.

Rifles/smgs- there was no body armor then, so I would probably stay with the existing calibers. I would probably have encouraged more grease guns or M2 carbines to more troops, Vs the Garand. (Although the FN P90 would have the Cool factor.)

[stevelyn]

I would have to agree with a previous poster on the BM-59.
As for air support, already been done in the movie 'The Final Countdown' about an American aircraft carrier (The Nimitz) that gets caught in a time warp a couple of days before Dec. 7, 1941.

[Black Snowman]

I say a Gen 1 night vision scope because it will be MUCH easier and cheaper for them to reproduce and therefore can have a greater and earlier impact. Put it on anything firing APFSDS. Discarding sabot could be applied to the underpowerd guns on the Sherman with no retro-fitting and enable them to kill the heavier panzer tanks.

I think these are the 2 largest improvement in their respective fields (optics and balistics) since WW II and would have the greatest impact on influcencing victory.

[Detritus]

I would think that an A1D Skyraider would be about the best thing to send back. Great aircraft.

Have to VERY much agree there

built with tech that dates from the time, using an engine alrerady at least in develoment (R-3350, same Powerplant as the B-29), ect ect.....(go ahead and adress the plans etc to Ed Heinemann, since he's gonna design it anyway why change ALL the history of it)
translation, giving them the best Prop-driven ground attack plane ever built, at the beginning of, rather than a few weeks AFTER, the war. For those who don't know th A-1 was a single engine, single seat (mostly) naval aircraft that carried a bombload of 8,000lbs (aproximately twice that of a B-25 and half that of a B-17) and 4 20mm cannons.

AND it wasn't too shabby in Air to Air either (what was the mig count from Korea asn early Vietnam?)

in other words this was (as it was nick named) a "flying dumptruck", that when "clean"(no external armament) handled like a fighter (albeit a big fighter) and could fly away with damage that would have felled other craft.

yeah, that and a way to cause the ARMY AND the Navy put it in service, THAT would be in my oppinion the best thing to send.

Now on th strictly small arms side fo things, i'd say a like others hae that a Box-mag fed M-1 based gun would be idea (leave it in 30-06 to keep it simple logistics wise though)

[Dr.Rob]

Yeah tie a man portable US modern field issue medic's bag to the stock of a CMP M-1.

That would save far more lives than any increase in firepower.

Interesting that so many say the AK.. while it was inspired by the Stg-44, folks have to remember, Germany chose the STG because forged steel parts plants kept getting bombed into the stone age. The STG was never fielded in vast numbers, much like many of Germany's advanced designs. In fact, the Germans arguably had some of the best technology of the war. Still it didn't stand a chance against the arsenal of democracy, the 2.5 ton truck or the determination of the American public. I'm sure our combined labour efforts could have fielded zillions of AK's, but the outcome would have been the same.

Weapons are merely tools.

Ok how about a decent night vision sight rigged to a bomber's nose so the 8th Airforce never had to bomb in daylight? That could have saved countless aircrews.

How about bunker busting munitions for atoll-hopping, rather than burning 'em out with a flame thrower and grenades? Could have helped in raids over Berlin too.

[hops]

Take German Petro-Chemical production off line or reduce it to 20 pct in mid '42 instead of mid '44.

As far as the quality of German stuff. After spring of '44 it was all going down hill. Severe shortages of nickel, chrome, and other strategic metals, plus rubber and so on did more to break down Germany than round the clock bombing of cities and factories. STG was mostly made of wood and lead. The barrel was the main steel component.

I'm sure there were low-quality MG42's facing the allies by mid '44. The American's fought what was left of the once elite wehrmacht, which on the western front in '44 never enjoyed air or supply parity. It's pretty bleak when it takes a jet powered Arado 234B recon plane to give the Germans a reccn pictures 2+ months after D-day.

[DragonRider]

1. 4-5 Laptop computers, hack all the Axis codes that can be thought of in hours instead of months. Would also use them for most of the following items.

2. 2 HP Laserjet 6P with 4 extra cartidges

3. A documentry of each war since WWII on CD-ROM. That way they can see things that are possible and think how to make current technological leaps for that time sooner. It would also teach tactics

4. Military Field Manuals on CD-ROM to help with training, tactics and the rest.

5. Detailed maps of the time with regards to water depth, currents and geographic points for navigation.

6. Current EMS and Combat surgery maunals on CD-ROM

7. Wear a Kevlar vest and helmet with instruction on how to manufacture aramid fibers. This will also help with vehiecle armoring

Go back and start printing stuff. All of the above stuff could be carried by one man in a Ruck. I would also tell them, that some of the weapons you guys have, are still being used 50 years later. They haven't been improved on. I dont think stepping in and saying here, make this to win would go over well, just give them some ideas and let them run with it.

Knowledge is more important than the weapons sometimes, given Allied numbers IN THIS case.

John