“Bringing a fake gun to a gunfight..."


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twoclones
February 23, 2009, 01:45 PM
Copied this from NRAILA website.

A homeowner in Las Vegas, Nev., arrived home around 4:15 p.m. and found his house being burglarized. As the homeowner went inside, he was confronted by career burglar Mark Clinton Vains, who pulled out a gun and pointed it at the homeowner. The homeowner, a Right-To-Carry permit holder, drew his gun and fired at Vains, killing him.

Police later discovered that Vains, who had a history of burglary dating back to 1992, had used a pellet gun during the incident. Las Vegas police did not charge the homeowner in the case and Homicide Lt. Lew Roberts said, “You either shoot him, or he shoots you.” Local gun shop owner and frequent expert firearm witness, Bob Irwin also agreed with the homeowner’s actions in the case and stated, “Bringing a fake gun to a gunfight is not a healthy thing to do." (Fox5Vegas, Las Vegas, Nev. 02/16/09, KTNV, Las Vegas, Nev. 02/16/09, KVBC-TV, Las Vegas, Nev. 02/19/09)

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Duke of Doubt
February 23, 2009, 01:52 PM
I once had a court-appointed client get apprehended with dope and a pellet gun. I asked him, "Are you [freak]ing retarded?" I mean, it's the worst of both worlds. First of all, it's technically a gun in Maine, not that it's regulated, but for purposes of criminal law. He didn't know that. Second, obviously it won't help him protect himself from being robbed or attacked. Third, actually showing it will provoke legally-privileged responses with real weapons. His answer? "But I couldn't afford a Glock." I was tempted to tell him how little a used Hi-Point goes for, but decided against it in the interest of public safety.

I have a friend with a son who carried one around for awhile, pointing it at people. Friend was concerned at the face I made when I learned this interesting fact. I asked just what the kid would do when he pointed the thing at me in traffic and I blew him away with my Beretta. He really hadn't considered that as a likely outcome.

twoclones
February 23, 2009, 01:59 PM
"Are you [freak]ing retarded?"

Did you go for the Insanity defense? :rolleyes:

Jim K
February 23, 2009, 02:02 PM
I was told more years ago than I care to think about that an empty or fake gun can get you into trouble, but it can't get you out.

Still good advice.

Jim

2RCO
February 23, 2009, 02:14 PM
THis reminds me of the family member that wanted a "real looking" pistol in case of home invasion. ---Bad idea!

CAS700850
February 23, 2009, 09:10 PM
In Ohio, a pellet/air soft gun doesn't qualify as a firearm, so many BG's choose one of these for robberies to avoid the three year gun spec on the underlying charge.

bikerdoc
February 24, 2009, 09:13 AM
There is no pill for stupid.
Doc

BBQLS1
February 24, 2009, 09:16 AM
Wow.

Texian
February 24, 2009, 09:45 AM
Bad day to be a bad guy....

Cannonball888
February 24, 2009, 12:16 PM
In Ohio, a pellet/air soft gun doesn't qualify as a firearm, so many BG's choose one of these for robberies to avoid the three year gun spec on the underlying charge.
Very strange. Most other states will convict a person of armed robbery if the robber stuck his finger in his pocket and said he had a gun.

highorder
February 24, 2009, 12:34 PM
Quote:
In Ohio, a pellet/air soft gun doesn't qualify as a firearm, so many BG's choose one of these for robberies to avoid the three year gun spec on the underlying charge.
Very strange. Most other states will convict a person of armed robbery if the robber stuck his finger in his pocket and said he had a gun.

Thats how I understand it. If you imply in any way that you are armed, it becomes ARMED robbery.

IANAL.

Duke of Doubt
February 24, 2009, 12:40 PM
Cannonball888: "Very strange. Most other states will convict a person of armed robbery if the robber stuck his finger in his pocket and said he had a gun."

Not only that. Some states, for purposes of determining whether a crime was committed "with a firearm", and for sentencing determinations, treat that pellet pistol exactly the same as if it were a .44 Magnum.

Byron Quick
February 24, 2009, 12:47 PM
You can't cure stupid. I once had an employee hide a toy Uzi under his coat and then pull it on me in poor light. The idiot knew I was armed. I swept the Uzi off line as I was drawing my Highpower. He was gobbling. As I was sweeping the Uzi, I realized the inertia was wrong and that it was plastic.

If I hadn't made contact with that 'Uzi;' I would have shot him. If I hadn't owned an Uzi and thus been familiar with its mass; I would have shot him.

Dumb guy but his father was spot on when he nicknamed his son...Hammerhead.

Speedo66
February 24, 2009, 07:22 PM
In NY the criteria for an armed robbery is "displays what appears to be a gun". We're talking Rob 2deg, a C Violent Fel.

So pellet gun, replica gun, blank gun, real looking toy gun, etc. will all add (many) years to your sentence.

the iron horse
February 27, 2009, 09:32 PM
I did that one night back in the 80s.

I had just left a class late one night and stop at a Seven Eleven.

Walking in I noticed a guy outside to the left of the entrance.

Keeping that in mind, plus that I had my revolver in the glove compartment of my car, I walked out aware.

The moment I opened my car door he approached and asked for a ride three blocks away.

In a non-offending voice I told him I never gave rides and at the same time I
put my right hand behind my back.

(I had no gun. It was in the car.)

Making a few movements to suggest I was reaching for something.

He was about six feet away and I could see he noticed my hand movement.


He said nothing and walked away

Hungry Seagull
February 27, 2009, 09:41 PM
Im ashamed to see such stupidty. You think with all of the powers provided to us over all other life on earth, we would know better. But nooo...

RoboDuck
February 27, 2009, 10:12 PM
I wish all bad guys carried fake guns.

Smith
February 28, 2009, 01:18 PM
THis reminds me of the family member that wanted a "real looking" pistol in case of home invasion. ---Bad idea!

Same here!

Deanimator
February 28, 2009, 01:35 PM
Back in the late '80s or early '90s, there was a guy in usenet rec.guns who insisted that it was a "good" idea to carry a fake gun. Pretty much everybody ripped him a new one you could sail a guided missile frigate through, but he stuck to his [fake] guns. Called himself "Rifleman". Should have been "Retarded Child".

Alchymist
February 28, 2009, 01:59 PM
Unfortunately there is no law against stupidity. Er, actually, there is in a sense ....Darwin's law. Unlike legal statues, it enforces itself.

armedandsafe
February 28, 2009, 07:06 PM
I think I remember rifleman. He had some strange ideas on other subjects, also. I think one was that you could bend the front sight on a rifle and get windage and elevation adjustment at the same time.

Pops

Deanimator
February 28, 2009, 11:59 PM
I think one was that you could bend the front sight on a rifle and get windage and elevation adjustment at the same time.
I'm sure that WILL give you windage and elevation adjustment at the same time. It's just that most GROWNUPS don't want it to be RANDOM adjustment. He wasn't the biggest buffoon I ever came across in usenet, but he merited an honorable mention.

WardenWolf
March 1, 2009, 03:20 AM
It is a fundamental flaw of human reasoning to assume other people are smart. This has been borne over and over throughout history. It only truly started to show itself in earnest, though, in the 20th century. During this time, mass media began marketing "smart" to the common man. "It's the smart thing to do. . .", and "You'll be smart if you do this." So instead of primarily highly skilled and specialized people being regarded as smart, it became something to be expected.

Unfortunately, this denies the true underlying fact: people are stupid. Individuals may be smart, but people, on a whole, are stupid. And if you are one of those people possessed with a degree of skill as to be in position of authority, you need to remember this and never assume that anything that has even the slightest degree of ambiguity will be interpreted correctly. You cannot trust people to "fill in the gaps". You need to spell it out, plain as day, or someone, somewhere, will get it wrong. And even if you do spell it out, plain as day, someone, somewhere, will STILL get it wrong.

Doubly unforunately, we, as a species, have advanced technologically and societally to the point where natural selection does not weed out many of the stupid individuals. This means that society, on a whole, is, in fact, becoming more stupid.

coloradokevin
March 1, 2009, 06:08 AM
Perception is reality.

We have a lot of gang bangers down in the district where I work who use fake guns for robberies and such. In fact, just based on my unofficial anecdotal evidence from working the street, I'd say that 30% of our gun robberies are committed with pellet/airsoft/inoperable guns. I recently had one where a guy used an inoperable black powder revolver to menace someone!

A lot of non-guns look very realistic these days, and I've had a few partners who have killed people when drawn on by these kinds of criminals (ie: a few years ago a couple of officers I had worked with made a traffic stop on a stolen car. The bad guy jumped out and aimed an airsoft gun at our guys. He ended up "DRT").

Gamera
March 1, 2009, 07:25 AM
You'd think if they were going to commit a crime they would do it the correct way...

Alchymist
March 1, 2009, 09:08 AM
Quote "You'd think if they were going to commit a crime they would do it the correct way..."

Nope, See post 23.....

Although, Darwin is still holding his own.

Ignorance can be cured with education. Stupid is forever.

devildog66
March 1, 2009, 10:39 AM
"It is a fundamental flaw of human reasoning to assume other people are smart."
M the W
That is a truism if ever there was one! Unfortunately, it is not as self-evident as it should be as the young Vegas burglar proved. I truly have empathy for that homeowner and the "mark of Cain" that he will now have to cope with. He absolutely did the right thing and no doubt his actions were justified; however, one other rather unseemly aspect of human nature to second guess this case despite no direct knowledge of the actual series of events that early morning.

nyggis
March 1, 2009, 10:55 AM
Classic scene from a wonderful movie....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s376ZbPG-OM

kwelz
March 1, 2009, 11:53 AM
I have not laughed that hard in a long time. That scene was awesome. Although NSFW just to warn people.

rtroha
March 1, 2009, 12:18 PM
As a matter of fact, there was a bank robbery in my neighborhood on Friday afternoon.

"bank robbery suspect shot by police, was carrying a toy gun"

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/westlake_police_toy_gun_used_1.html

earlthegoat2
March 1, 2009, 12:39 PM
“Bringing a fake gun to a gunfight is not a healthy thing to do."

Stated like a true professional. It was nice that they got the opinion of not only a gun owner but a gun dealer. At least this article wasnt twisted in some anti gun slant.

Duke of Doubt
March 1, 2009, 12:45 PM
Cute scene. Overacted, and a little melodramatic, but cute. In my version, the guy would have just gone on sipping his suds, and told the kids deadpan to get lost before he disassembled them.

Lightninstrike
March 1, 2009, 02:23 PM
Gutsy home owner. Drew his weapon while the other guy had the drop on him. OTOH, what else you gonna do?

The Deer Hunter
March 1, 2009, 02:28 PM
You can't cure stupid. I once had an employee hide a toy Uzi under his coat and then pull it on me in poor light. The idiot knew I was armed. I swept the Uzi off line as I was drawing my Highpower. He was gobbling. As I was sweeping the Uzi, I realized the inertia was wrong and that it was plastic.

If I hadn't made contact with that 'Uzi;' I would have shot him. If I hadn't owned an Uzi and thus been familiar with its mass; I would have shot him.

Dumb guy but his father was spot on when he nicknamed his son...Hammerhead.

I surely hope there was a beating underway.

22lr
March 1, 2009, 02:30 PM
LOL, now thats funny stuff right there. Been a while since ive seen an article that was both good, and funny. A pellet gun, come on for a few bucks more a Hi-point could be had, LOL to good.

MPCO
March 1, 2009, 03:28 PM
If you point a gun at someone, threatening their life, you should expect them to do everything in their power to exercise self-preservation. I have NO sympathy for that guy. :mad: My only sympathy goes to the poor CCW holder that had to go through Cross Examination during the legal battle afterwards.

Fisherman_48768
March 1, 2009, 06:40 PM
Duh, article said that:
Capt. Guy Turner of the Westlake Police Department said the toy gun was recovered at Columbia and Westood roads, where Saah, 21, was stopped by police and later shot.

Established the "gun" was a toy, every toy gun I have ever owned or seen they were incapable of firing a cartridge.

Jurcak, 33, was shot in his left foot during the gunfire. At the time of the shooting, police were unsure if he was shot by Saah or if Jurcak accidentally shot himself. Turner said the entire incident is still under investigation.

Then the reporter goes on to state that (officer )Jurcak either shot himself or Saah shot him in the foot???

Now I really wonder who the dumb one is, Saah or the reporter.

Superlite27
March 1, 2009, 07:00 PM
police were unsure if he was shot by Saah or if Jurcak accidentally shot himself.

Now I really wonder who the dumb one is, Saah or the reporter.

Or Jurcac. Or the cops who are "unsure".

I'm voting "All of the above". They can't figure this one out, yet they are in charge of investigating society's crimes.

Rock and a hard spot for the cops on this one.

1) Admit you were inept enough to shoot yourself, or 2)blame it on the guy with a toy gun?

Hmmmm. I guess this needs investigation.

We'll let you know the outcome at some point in the near future.

TxState101
March 1, 2009, 07:17 PM
Cute scene. Overacted, and a little melodramatic, but cute. In my version, the guy would have just gone on sipping his suds, and told the kids deadpan to get lost before he disassembled them.

It's from the movie Snatch, and the whole movie is like that. Well worth watching if you haven't seen it before. If you have, I'm preaching to the choir.

It's easily one of my favorite movies.

KarenTOC
March 1, 2009, 08:44 PM
Hilarious movie clip.

Although NSFW just to warn people.

What does "NSFW" stand for?

Officers'Wife
March 1, 2009, 08:48 PM
Sounds like a felon truly deserving of a Darwin award. I have to feel sorry for the homeowner being put in the situation he had to make that choice.

heron
March 1, 2009, 09:11 PM
Doubly unforunately, we, as a species, have advanced technologically and societally to the point where natural selection does not weed out many of the stupid individuals. This means that society, on a whole, is, in fact, becoming more stupid.Well said, Mike.
Just today, in Cleveland, some guy was shot dead by police while doing a robbery with a fake gun.
(edit) Oops, got the date wrong, same incident mentioned above.

jerkface11
March 1, 2009, 09:30 PM
What really doesn't make sense is if you know you have a fake gun why would you even THINK about pointing it at the police?

crushbup
March 1, 2009, 09:35 PM
What does "NSFW" stand for?

Not Safe For Work. Basically, it's a warning that there is some unsavory content in the link, in this case, bad language and violence.

thisisbullshin
March 1, 2009, 09:36 PM
NSFW = Not Suitable For Work

Ohio Gun Guy
March 1, 2009, 09:43 PM
I'm not sure about the Ohio law as stated earlier. I know of someone (went to the same H.S.) who used a BBgun and he got the gun specification 100% sure of it. Maybe it has changed since 1996-97?, but last I knew all you had to do was make reference or a showing and weather its a piece of wood, finger, etc. It just became a gun at sentencing!

The worst part of the whole thing is he was just 18 years old. Those are hard years....... (Don't confuse with a desire to change that.)

I always wondered how bad it could have been had there been an armed guard or off-duty cop, etc. That BB gun wouldn't have done him any favors!

SoCalShooter
March 1, 2009, 10:27 PM
Oh god thats hilarious, thank goodness for the laws of nature.

ar10
March 1, 2009, 10:34 PM
In Ohio, a pellet/air soft gun doesn't qualify as a firearm, so many BG's choose one of these for robberies to avoid the three year gun spec on the underlying charge.

That's not true. You use anything perceived as a gun in the commission of a crime and are found guilty you'll go to prison. The gun specification is always served first then the rest of the charges follow. That way the weapon specification will be three years flat time then the rest of the sentences. (This keeps the guy from accumulating "good time" until after the gun spec). I also know of one instance where the bank robber pulled a pellet gun during a NCB robbery. He died at the scene, shot by two cops.

ThrottleJockey
March 1, 2009, 10:44 PM
You won't believe this one. Years ago, in my wilder days, I was preparing for a camping trip. I had a tent, a hatchet, a sleeping bag, and a wrist rocket(sling shot) in my trunk. I went to a local hang out to gather a few friends and some mood enhancing substance. I had no luck, but was going out to the woods anyways. Upon leaving the parking lot, I was stopped by LEO, who almost immediately had several backup cars present and had me covered with his side arm. They searched my car, and charged me with possession of a concealed weapon(hatchet), illegal possession of a FIREARM(sling shot), and possession of marijuana(a bent piece of copper pipe that smelled funny). I hired a lawyer, who laughed uncontrollably at these charges. The hatchet was dropped by the judge immediately due to the fact that it was in my trunk with other camping gear, the pipe thing was dropped when my lawyer asked to see the "marijuana" and the police provided a plastic bag with a piece of copper pipe in it(the judge was getting a little pissed at this point) and even though local ordinances DO consider a sling shot a fire arm, in light of the other issues, the judge dismissed the whole thing. It cost me a night in jail, and $600 for a lawyer, but well worth it since a public pretender would have just plea bargained and still left me with a record that could possibly prevented me from having an actual gun someday.

Zoogster
March 1, 2009, 10:49 PM
Classic scene from a wonderful movie....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s376ZbPG-OM

have not laughed that hard in a long time. That scene was awesome.

Funny, but foolish movie gibberish.

In a place were firearms are prohibited or heavily restricted it is quite common for individuals to convert (or attempt to convert) replicas into working firearms. At least being capable of a single shot. Sure they could just use many other metalic objects for the task, but they often prefer things that actualy look like a real gun.
Assuming a metalic gun will not shoot because it was once a replica is dangerous.
In a place with firearm restrictions it is also not unlikely that some replica parts will be used to fix or repair actual firearms if they will work.

If someone pointed a blank firing or replica gun at me in the UK I would assume it was modified to actualy shoot something. Choosing to show his gun and rely on his assumption rather than firing was purely theatrical.
Of course the whole scene was.

John Wayne
March 1, 2009, 10:55 PM
career burglar Mark Clinton Vains

Perhaps his parents named him after their favorite politician?

ThrottleJockey
March 1, 2009, 10:55 PM
^good movie, Snatch, and Lock Stock and 2 Smoking Barrels.

woodybrighton
March 2, 2009, 06:18 AM
heard of one idiot in the Uk when arrested again for liquor store hold up (only a fool robs a shop with a cop car parked outside).:uhoh "No worries inspector its only a replica turned out it was an ancient GI 45 in condition 1:eek:. idiot actually thought it was a replica:banghead:

the copper who told me this said give me organised criminals at least you know what your dealing with the disorganised ones are way more scary:D

Duke of Doubt
March 2, 2009, 08:21 AM
woody: "the copper who told me this said give me organised criminals at least you know what your dealing with the disorganised ones are way more scary"

The copper knows his business. At least as important from his perspective is that the organized criminal knows what he is dealing with. He knows how arrest, booking and bail goes. He already has a lawyer, and if his can't do the case for reasons of ethical or scheduling conflict or inexperience, his associates can get him another. He knows what to expect from jail, and what not to expect. He knows about how much his bail will be, and how to raise it. He knows he won't get raped in jail. Maybe someone else might, but he won't. He knows his girl won't leave him. He knows he won't lose his job. For the disorganized criminal, all of these are risks and unknowns. He has fallen into a world of trouble, and he is far more likely to run a high speed chase or to put up a fight -- maybe even a suicidal fight with lethal weapons.

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