Baby Eagle safety design flaw, need help.


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Dorkfish
February 23, 2009, 06:50 PM
I know I'm new and probably shouldn't be making potentially negative posts right off, but I am in the need of board member(s) help.

This has yet to be identified by MRI, IWI, KBI/Charles Daly as a true flaw. It is only a potential flaw at this point and could be isolated to a batch/lot or spec related problem. Something that MRI is/will be addressing very quickly.

Purchased a NIB Magnum Research (IWI Import) Baby Eagle/Jericho in .45ACP (slide safety model) two weeks ago. Read the manual before I shot it. Pre-cleaned accordingly, barrel seasoned accordingly (avid hunter), not more than 50 rnds per session over 4 sessions totalling 130 rounds.

Right out of the box, the safety/decocking mechanism was firm and fluid. Upon actuating the lever to SAFE, the hammer decocked as it was supposed to. After the 130 total rounds through her, my safety/decocker no longer decocks and indicates SAFE, but the hammer is locked to the rear as is the trigger. In fact, even in this position I can pull the trigger and get a full force hammer fall! If I push the safety lever just a mm or two beyond SAFE, it will actuate the decocker.

Upon inspection I could not see any undue wear on the hammer's lock/release bar next to the fire control group. I also do not see any wear on the safety/decocking pin located in the slide. Took it to the local FFL that sold her to me and he inspected it. No unusual signs of wear, but he could successfully replicate my problem using my firearm. His reaction: :cuss:

Today I attempted to contact Magnum Research, who is no longer importing these, and got the usual brush-off: send it to us at YOUR expense and we'll fix it, then return it. Well, I'm not satisfied with that answer, so I visit the AutoCAD office on campus to inquire about the general mechanics and my suspicion that this is a design flaw that is fatal to the firearm and possibly others.

He works up the very basics of the involved moving parts by my drawing and says "What the? Who's design is this? This can't work, it will shear the pin tip, wear on the contact parts, or continue to shed metal until you receive a complete failure in the system. It's an unfixable flaw without redesigning the mechanics."

So I call the BATF and inquire, they direct me to contact all parties who could be involved (manufacturer, importers) and let them know, then to contact the Consumer Product Safety Commission and make a report. The ATF cannot get involved until there is a genuine and documented case with cause for recall, then and only then may the ATF force distributors to recall the aforementioned firearms.

What I need help with:
Have any of you Jericho/Baby Eagle owners (models w/ slide safety) experienced this problem?
If so, please list the nature of the problem for me and what, if anything was done about it. (how much ammo through it when problem occurred, nature of the problem, manufacuter and distributor, resolution)

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Dorkfish
February 24, 2009, 12:24 PM
MRI contacted me today and asked: Was the firing pin installed upside down?

I have no answer for this question as it would likely void my warranty to tear down the BE II this far. If anyone has information on that specific question, please post up your info as it may help MRI, IWI, or KBI/Charles Daly in the future, should any of them run into this problem.

MRI is in-process on this issue, I'll keep you updated if they will provide the info I requested when they have the firearm.

atblis
February 24, 2009, 04:04 PM
If you are talking about a new gun that has not been modified, it needs to go back the manufacturer under warranty.

You need to pursue that before anything else.

MRI isn't known for having the best customer service. The big name well thought off manufacturers will just about always pay shipping, especially if it is a safety issue.

Good luck.

Charles Daly
February 25, 2009, 12:34 AM
DorkFish, as I posted on our CD Forum (http://www.charlesdalyforum.com/showthread.php?t=1745) where you made your same claim, whatever you think ATF can do in this situation, you are wrong. ATF has no authority to force/implement a recall of a firearm and the CPSC has no authority to force/implement a recall of a firearm. In the USA, only firearms manufacturers or importers make recalls. And that is a blessing, for if the CPSC could force the recall of a firearm, there would not be any firearms sold in this country.

Whoever you spoke to at BATF, if they told you something to the contrary, they did not know what they were talking about.

And when you refer to a "potential" flaw, I trust you mean that your gun may have a defect. If you mean to imply that there is a design flaw then you would be wrong.

Jericho and Baby Eagles have been sold all over the world for 20 years and no such flaw has ever surfaced. IMI/IWI have some of the finest firearm engineers in the world. They would not put a gun on the market for these 20 years with a design defect.

Let Magnum repair your gun. That is the only thing that needs to be done and the only thing that should be done.

atblis
February 25, 2009, 09:12 AM
Jericho and Baby Eagles have been sold all over the world for 20 years and no such flaw has ever surfaced. IMI/IWI have some of the finest firearm engineers in the world. They would not put a gun on the market for these 20 years with a design defect.
That's actually not a very good argument. More or less a fallacy.

Charles Daly
February 25, 2009, 09:51 AM
That's actually not a very good argument. More or less a fallacy.

And why would you characterize that statement as a fallacy? The Jericho has been on the market for almost 20 years. My company, KBI, imported the first Jericho's into the US, followed by Mossberg (under the UZI Eagle mark), then by Magnum Research (as the Baby Desert Eagle).

IMI, and later IWI, sold this gun (and continues to sell this gun) all over the world. It is also in heavy use by the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and many Israeli police and security agencies.

Extensive testing is conducted by IWI on a regular basis, both in the R&D Department and in the "real world".

I don't have the exact numbers, but I could venture a guess that in excess of 250,000 pieces have been produced. If there is a design defect, as Dorkfish claims, then it would have surfaced a long time ago.

That sounds like a good argument to me. But I am willing to listen to you explain why I'm mistaken.

atblis
February 25, 2009, 10:00 AM
I never said there was a design flaw. Just pointing out that your appeal to authority is a classic fallacy.

Take your argument and put in GM or Ford and talk about cars.

jon_in_wv
February 25, 2009, 11:54 AM
No the OP said it was a design flaw and I didn't hear Mr. Kassner appeal to authority? You seem to be going after someone els'e statements and attributing them to him.

atblis
February 25, 2009, 12:04 PM
You seem to be going after someone els'e statements and attributing them to him.
I'll assume by Mr. Kassner, you mean Charles Daly

If so, then this

Jericho and Baby Eagles have been sold all over the world for 20 years and no such flaw has ever surfaced. IMI/IWI have some of the finest firearm engineers in the world. They would not put a gun on the market for these 20 years with a design defect.

says nothing about the design and why it is not a faulty one. Nothing addressing the OPs original statements about "shear on a pin tip". Just a statement about being a quality and reputable gunmaker for 20 years and that they couldn't possible make something faulty because of that. That is more or less an appeal to authority.

It's the same as everybody responds regarding SIG, Glock, HK, etc. etc.

Now the OP didn't give us much to work off of, so not trying to argue about the actual design.

Also, I am not saying it's a bad design or not. Don't have enough information.

Charles Daly
February 25, 2009, 12:13 PM
...they couldn't possible make something faulty because of that.

That is not what I said or what I meant. I am saying that after having produced this design for 20 years, if there was a design flaw, they would have seen it by now and would have taken corrective measures. That has not happened.

wyocarp
February 25, 2009, 12:19 PM
got the usual brush-off: send it to us at YOUR expense and we'll fix it, then return it. Well, I'm not satisfied with that answer

Am I missing something? The OP feels that, having someone say that they will take care of the problem is the "usual brush-off"?

Dorkfish, I'll try not to be as quick to judge you as you seem to have been with Magnum Research. Send them the gun and let them fix it.

These guns are some of the nicest you'll shoot. I'm going to make an assumption, and that is, you are as new to firearms as you are to this forum. I agree that it would be nice for them to send a call tag or money for you to send the gun back with (heck, it would be really nice if they would send a gunsmith to your home), but they offering to fix the gun and my experience with them is that they will make it right. Give them that opportunity and quit acting like a spoiled child.

Dorkfish
February 25, 2009, 05:17 PM
Interestingly enough, I had corrected my OP to include that it was not a confirmed flaw, but it is identified as a serious issue.

MRI's input as of yesterday: we want this firearm...get it to us immediately.

Several things come into play here.

1. MRI is no longer importing this firearm.
2. MRI may have problems obtaining parts for this firearm at an undetermined date in the near future.
3. MRI has a similar customer service reputation to that of H&K, it'll get done but only when they want to get to it (some firearm issues take priority over others...safey is held at the highest) and most likely the customer will be out even more money that is considered "incidental" and not covered under warranty to have a defective and warrantied item sent back.
4. KBI/Charles Daly is the new importer. Jericho
5. Readers are too heavily skeptic that this is isolated to just this firearm. Those who have served as LEO's or military know that it is never isolated to just one firearm.

I keep getting this garbage on forums from CD regarding my resource for aiding in identifying this issue as potentially repetitive due to the basic mechancs. That's right, he's not an engineer and neither am I, but it's mechanics that can be drawn on paper and still do not work without potentially excessive wear or damage. It's simple mechanics that cause failures of this nature and if you can't accept it then just disregard my warning on this issue. I want KBI/CD to be informed to help limit their liability and trouble shoot since they're now over the Jericho line.

So, lets put the issue back into the light it's meant to be in. It's a potential design flaw that needs to be identified and addressed, be it out of spec, batch, or lot related. MRI is in-process with my firearm and hopefully will provide me the exact findings, resolution, and part numbers/info so I can pass the information on to KBI/Charles Daly in the event that they run into this exact problem with the Jericho.

The Baby Eagle II/Jericho is a great firearm. It's clearly one of the smoothest shooting IMI / IWI products I've owned/fired. I'd buy another in a heart beat.

Charles Daly
February 25, 2009, 05:35 PM
...I keep getting this garbage on forums from CD...

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but what "garbage" are you referring to? Perhaps you mean your student with the AutoCad software?

nofishbob
February 25, 2009, 09:19 PM
I think a little clarity on the term "design defect" would help.

If the design is as obviously flawed as Dorkfish claims, so much so that it is obvious to a person with no firearms design experience, then CD's contention that this design has been used for twenty years can not be true. Yet the facts back up CD. These guns HAVE been in use for a long time.

There is a fundamental difference between a design flaw and a quality issue. A quality issue means that some guns will work, and some won't. A design flaw of the magnitude alleged by Dorkfish guarantees that essentially NONE of the guns will work.

If the design was recently changed, Dorkfish's assertion could be correct. Unlikely, but possible.

I am a Mechanical Engineer, and I have explained the function of mechanisms to more than a few people who relied on intuition rather than an understanding of the sometimes subtle operation and interaction of a complex group of parts.

HTH

Bob

jon_in_wv
February 25, 2009, 09:22 PM
Wow. This thread is full of so much childishness is pathetic. CD made a perfectly valid point and you guys are shooting off into all kinds of weird tangents. THR is one of the only places on the internet you usually don't find this crap. I guess those days are slowly disappearing.

OP, send your gun back and have them look at it. Your original post that is was a "design flaw" was poorly worded at best and baiting negative discussion at worst. Send it back and get over it.

I'll assume by Mr. Kassner, you mean Charles Daly

If you look at his signature you would see he signs it with his NAME. You don't have to assume that it who I'm talking about. Does that speak to how much of a post you bother to read before you decide to pop off about it? I think your motives have more to do with a disdain of CD than it does with any level of honest discussion. I'm just "assuming" that though.

Kindrox
February 25, 2009, 11:30 PM
What Jon and CD said. You don't see Ford or GM recalling cars 20 years later due to a design flaw. And guns are a much simpler mechanical system to flush problems out of. A lot of hot air is coming out of one guy for a gun that needs to go back to the factory.

atblis
February 26, 2009, 08:46 AM
If you look at his signature you would see he signs it with his NAME. You don't have to assume that it who I'm talking about. Does that speak to how much of a post you bother to read before you decide to pop off about it? I think your motives have more to do with a disdain of CD than it does with any level of honest discussion. I'm just "assuming" that though.
Wow. Are you serious? I think you're being hypersensitive and I have no clue why.

Boba Fett
February 26, 2009, 03:02 PM
If the problem were inherent to all Baby Eagles, I would think we would have more people reporting the problem.

That isn't to say that the OP's Baby Eagle doesn't have a problem.

As for sending it to Magnum Research at your own cost, um...that is true of most manufacturers of anything. Since you purchased it NIB two weeks ago, it is still under the one year parts and labor warranty. Be happy it's covered and send it off.

My Baby Eagle has well over 2000 rounds through it. The pin area the OP refers to has some very very minor etching/wear, but nothing that would make me worry about failure or needing to replace the parts.


I agree with Charles Daly that field testing of the Baby Eagle in military and LE services as well as consumer markets would most likely have revealed this flaw by now if it were there.

Take the first M16 rifles that saw action in Viet Nam. The problems with the rifle were almost immediately apparent. They didn't have to wait 20 years to find them out.

MachIVshooter
February 26, 2009, 03:47 PM
Interestingly enough, I had corrected my OP to include that it was not a confirmed flaw, but it is identified as a serious issue.

Identified by whom? I own a baby eagle, nearly every one of my friends has one or more, and we move (I kid you not) no fewer than 20 of them through the shop I help at weekly. No one has ever had a decocker malfunction that has been brought to our attention.

This is also the first time, AFAIK, that the issue has been brought up on any of the forums I frequent.

So how you can draw the conclusion that an (unconfirmed) defect of your particular specimen is a design flaw is beyond me.

BTW, my baby eagle 9mm full size has more than 17,000 rounds through it without a single part failure and fewer malfunctions (of any type) than I have fingers.

The Baby Eagle is a well executed modified copy of the venerable CZ-75, and Tanfoglio is a highly successful gunmaker with a reputation to maintain worldwide. The design is not flawed.

bozzman3
February 26, 2009, 08:30 PM
Please send the gun back ASAP! Stop trying to make a court case out of a defective product!Have them fix it and be done with it!

browningguy
February 26, 2009, 08:41 PM
Sounds like a lawyer without enough billable hours looking for something to do.

DirtMoverz
February 27, 2009, 09:21 AM
I just googled my problem and found this thread.

I just purchased a brand new BE2 from TheGunSource.com. Gun came in box yesterday and I opened it myself at my FFL. Everything is brand new and looks great.

I have NOT shot the gun yet - it has been in my possesion for about 14hrs.

I am having the same problem as DorkFish with my safety/de-cocker mechanism.

On the older BE when the safety is in SAFE position - the trigger moves freely but nothing happens. On this new gun, when the safety is on SAFE and you pull the trigger it pulls the hammer back and then fires.
It does this 4 out of 5 times when you are trying it.
The same action is does when the safety is moved to FIRE.

Also, if safety is on and you rake the slide - when you release the slide it leaves the hammer in the cocked position. Normally the hammer falls back to the safe position.

I have not contacted MRI yet because I just recieved the gun last night.

DorkFish - You are not alone.

Please help..

Thanks

Storm
February 27, 2009, 09:38 AM
For heaven's sake, just send the gun back.

rbernie
February 27, 2009, 10:41 AM
Please help..
Malfunctioning guns should be sent to the manufacturer for repair, if under warranty. There is no other sensible recourse or option.

Asking strangers on an Internet forum for help with this broken gun is just silly, because there is no help that we can provide that will take a broken mechanical device and magically render it unbroken.

raz-0
February 27, 2009, 03:22 PM
I've had a 9mm Baby eagle for qutie some time. It has around 11,000 rounds thorugh it.

I have removed and replaced the whole safety system. It still works, and has never malfunctioned in the manner indicated. After having ot figure out what all the bits are and what they do when, I'd say comfortably that unless you did the same, any pictures drawn for someone who knows how to make a shape in autocad are probably not correct.

Removing and installing the firing pin is much like you would do on a 1911, and won't void any warranty as at some point you ahve to replace the firing pin spring due to wear and tear.

Send the gun in for repairs, something is wrong with it if putting it into safe does not cause it to decock. It is not a design issue, but more likely an issue of something not being to spec or being broken.

stevemis
February 27, 2009, 09:04 PM
MRI contacted me today and asked: Was the firing pin installed upside down?

Edit: It's possible to install upside down, but not backwards..:) See the "ETA" section in my message below. This is a possibility, but I suspect your decocker would be stuck completely, like mine was when I tried it..

Steve

stevemis
February 27, 2009, 09:30 PM
This thread got me curious. DorkFish, look at the pictures of my BE 45 and compare to yours.

In the first picture, standard field strip with firing pin removal. The second picture is a closeup of the removed slide internals. Excuse the reddish goop -- it's grease. Note the close-up of the slide: the black metal pin protrudes on the right when the slide-mounted decocker is engaged. Internally, the decocker grabs the firing pin and pushes it slightly forward so the falling hammer cannot strike it. The metal pin on the slide engages a lever on the frame which causes the hammer to fall and the trigger to disconnect. I illustrated this lever (final picture) by pointing to it with the firing pin.

At a minimum, I'd like you to look at (and press) the disconnect lever on the frame (picture 4) and inspect the pin on the slide which protrudes when the decock mechanism is engaged. Look for play, wear or other oddities.

Steve

ETA: I purposely tried to put the firing pin in the wrong way. This causes the decock mechanism to lock up... The lever does not move, the pin does not extend, the firing pin does not retract, etc. It would be pretty obvious if the firing pin was installed improperly. For those curious: Aim the notch in the firing pin at the rear sight (notch up). Also, the firing pin block is a little strange. It has a line on the top which should be perpendicular (forming a T) to the firing pin when installed properly AND works the opposite of the 1911 system: To lock, it must be depressed. When not depressed, the firing pin is free floating.

DirtMoverz
March 1, 2009, 01:11 AM
I spoke with Magnum Research and was told to send the gun in, and pay for my own shipping.

I was also told they are having many problems with the latest batches of guns and it will take 6~8weeks to repair and they will not expedite repairs.

Magnum Research resently told IMI they won't be importing the guns anymore, and now IMI is shipping them bad parts because they are upset.

This is the only reason/answer I was given.

I am sending my BE in Monday - I will let everyone know if it works when I get it back.

Apparently I should have just bought an old used one at the gun show - at least the safety would have worked.

DirtMoverz
March 1, 2009, 01:15 AM
*****

Just noticed that when I lay the gun on it's right side, the safety never works and the gun will fire.

If I hold the gun on it's left side (mag release facing the ground) the safety works fine.

DorkFish - Does yours act the same way?

Seems like something is just loose and the pin that sticks out the bottom of the slide to activate the decocker is too short.

Let me know...

Boba Fett
March 1, 2009, 02:43 AM
DirtMoverz
Magnum Research resently told IMI they won't be importing the guns anymore, and now IMI is shipping them bad parts because they are upset.


I call total BS on this comment.

You're saying that IMI is holding a grudge against Magnum Research because a different company will now be importing IMI firearms. And because of that, IMI is sending bad parts that will endanger people's lives, ruin their reputation, decrease their profits, and risk lawsuits??

BS!

Charles Daly
March 1, 2009, 11:15 AM
...and now IMI is shipping them bad parts because they are upset

I agree that this is total BS. You have to be very careful who you believe after a manufacturer and an importer part ways. Usually one of them is not particularly happy with the loss of business.

But to suggest that the maker is sending bad parts is absolutely absurd. Boba Fett is correct with his comments.

DirtMoverz
March 1, 2009, 11:48 PM
We can go back and forth but as I said before, this was Magnum Research's response, not something I came up with.

Magnum Research is who told me they were getting bad shipments of parts and they believe it is because they will no longer be doing business with IMI.

Just what they said...

Boba Fett and Charles Daly - we are trying to fix a problem with our guns, not talk trash. I'm just relaying what the company said.

If you can't help, just stay off the board.

Boba Fett
March 2, 2009, 01:40 AM
DirtMoverz
We can go back and forth but as I said before, this was Magnum Research's response, not something I came up with.
.............

Boba Fett and Charles Daly - we are trying to fix a problem with our guns, not talk trash. I'm just relaying what the company said.

If you can't help, just stay off the board.

I'm fine with you trying to solve a potential problem with your firearm and I hope you do. But if you don't want to "talk trash," then hold yourself to the same standard and don't post far fetched hearsay which actually has nothing to do with your problem.

Simply put, your supposed comments from Magnum Research are slanderous. Posting them without anything substantive to back up those comments is equally libelous.

If you're going to post hearsay, then you're going to have to accept people's responses to it. Especially slanderous/libelous hearsay.


So please, don't tell us to stay off the board. We have the same rights you do to make posts and replies to comments.

Charles Daly and I are helping. We are saying that your comments are dubious. Since your comments stand to hurt IMI, we are providing help by responding to your comments. It just isn't the "help" you were looking to hear I guess.

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