[Owen Sparks]

I have read that the original .357 Magnum load was a good bit stouter than todayd current factory loadings. I have a like new model 28 that was made in the early 1980's. It is built in a .44 frame and is much more robust than most modern .357 revolvers. I can't help but think that with it's massive six shot cylinder and heavy frame that it can withstand higher pressures than guns built on smaller .38 size frames.
Does anyone know of any seperate load data for the model 27 and 28 revolvers?

[BCRider]

I just got my own M28. This should be a good topic.

If we're reloading do we not have access to the recipes for the older original loads?

[Oro]

You are correct that multiple sources have reported (and recently tested) original .357 ammo from the '30s in the high-40k pressure range. Current SAAMI spec is 35k. In most of the rest of the world, which uses CIP standards and not SAAMI, the limit is not 35k but rather 44k - close to the original.

Unless I had a pressure transducer to verify my loads actual pressure, I would limit myself to published loads that fall within limits from older manuals from before the limit reductions, and work up to them carefully. Speer #8 and other major manuals from the late 60s and early 70s are good sources. These should be safe in large frame S&W and Ruger revolvers - but not medium and small frame revolvers. I use Speer #8, and there is actually a place with the .357 data online. I will try to find it again (lost the bookmark) and link to it if I can.

[ArchAngelCD]

If you're of the mindset to shoot very hot .357 Magnum rounds the M28 is probably the revolver to use since it's an N frame.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot very hot ammo in any .357 Magnum just because I don't want to trash a good revolver. If you need something that hot move up to a .41 Magnum or even a .44 Magnum.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

Personally, I wouldn't shoot very hot ammo in any .357 Magnum just because I don't want to trash a good revolver. If you need something that hot move up to a .41 Magnum or even a .44 Magnum.

Words of wisdom!

[Beagle-zebub]

Of course, there are people who are going to do the very same thing to those .41 and .44 revolvers, once they upgrade. Some folks just cain't leave well-enough alone!

[Oro]

Of course, there are people who are going to do the very same thing to those .41 and .44 revolvers, once they upgrade. Some folks just cain't leave well-enough alone!

I believe there is a real lack of understanding in the last two posts about what the question is asking. The OP is asking about loads withing the SAAMI spec limits of what the gun was designed for. He is NOT asking about "hot" over-pressure loads beyond the design specs for his gun.

[hoptob]

multiple sources have reported (and recently tested) original .357 ammo from the '30s in the high-40k pressure range
I'd be interested to see .357 magnum recipes from the 30's. Where can I find this data?

Mike

[madcratebuilder]

Find some old re-loading manuals. I would not trust anything on the net, unless well verified, if I was going over current published loads.

[Andy W]

Here is an article on the old 38-44 round:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_46/ai_60897647/pg_2

[chriske]

I second ArchAngelCD (# 4)

[SaxonPig]

I only shoot full power loads in my 357s because that's what they are for. If I want to shoot 38 loads I have a bunch of revolvers in that caliber for that purpose.

I have some reloading manuals from the 1970-73 period and I regularly use loads from those books with no problems. My favorite 357 load is one using 2400 and the 125 JHP with muzzle velocity running 1525 from my 5" Model 27. This is not the top load listed and I have gone up to 1700 FPS with this bullet but at that level the report and flash is unpleasant. I think 1525 is enough.

[Owen Sparks]

Oro said:
"I believe there is a real lack of understanding in the last two posts about what the question is asking. The OP is asking about loads withing the SAAMI spec limits of what the gun was designed for. He is NOT asking about "hot" over-pressure loads beyond the design specs for his gun."

Exactly right. The model 27 and 28 are built on the same frame and cylinder as the .44. The difference is that the charge holes are smaller and therefore have much more steel between them. There is no logical reason that the model 27's thick cylinder should not safely handle more pressure than the thin walled
.44 cylinder of the model 29. That being said, I am sure there is a safe limit but bumping the pressure up 15% or so should not surpass it in this massive revolver. As I understand it, the original factory load was toned down so that the
.357 cartridge could be chambered in a smaller K frame pistol. I don't have a small frame .357, I have the original and would like to shoot original spec loads.

[The Lone Haranguer]

It would be interesting to see what the "old-time" loads would do using an actual revolver (many velocity figures were obtained from an extra long, unvented test barrel), a chronograph and pressure measuring equipment. :)

[earplug]

Strange but true, you can't use some heavy bullets to max out power in N Frames because the cylinder is shorter then a K or L frame. Deeper seated bullets won't allow the needed powder space with slower powder.
People have done heavy bullets using .38 spl cases, but then your on your own.
The heavy cylinder will actually get beat up faster then a lighter cyclinder due to its weight working against the yoke under recoil.
If I needed a hot .357 load with a heavy bullet, I'd get a L frame.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

From the OP:
I can't help but think that with it's massive six shot cylinder and heavy frame that it can withstand higher pressures than guns built on smaller .38 size frames. Does anyone know of any seperate load data for the model 27 and 28 revolvers?

From Archangel:
Personally, I wouldn't shoot very hot ammo in any .357 Magnum just because I don't want to trash a good revolver.

Sounds like the OP is looking for "hot" loads for S&W N frames. I have heard of "Ruger only" hot loads, never heard the same warning for S&W. Personally, I love my L-frames too much and therefore only shoot .357 mag sparingly, discreetly loaded with 158 grain JHP on top of 14 grains 2400.

[Quoheleth]

There is no logical reason that the model 27's thick cylinder should not safely handle more pressure than the thin walled .44 cylinder of the model 29.

I believe the .44 Magnum used/s a harder steel to handle the higher pressure.

So, there is a difference between a .357 Mag cylinder and a .44 Mag cylinder besides the sizes of the "holes."

Q

[CSA 357]

Bingo! I love my 4 inch 27-2 but i dont go over max loads, also remember the loads from the 30 s were lead, and they leaded the barrels very bad,

[Jim K]

The hot load in the old days was simply all the 2400 you could get in the case!

For reasonable loads, get an older reloading manual (try the gun shows) and pick out a load. Modern manuals are tamed down for fear of litigation, but the old ones have some pretty warm loads that were within SAAMI specs and didn't blow up any guns.

FWIW, I have a Model 28 and have put some pretty warm stuff through it with no problems.

Jim

[hoptob]

People often say that "original" 357 magnum loads were warmer than factory loads today. It's true for some of the loads published in early 70's, but I haven't found any data about hot loads from 1930's. If you were to check Phil Sharpe's 1937 "Complete guide to handloading" you'd probably agree that velocity of modern factory loads is about same if not higher.

Some of Phil's warm loads were:

146 gr. SHP:
10 gr. SR80 -- 1440 fps; 40,000 CUP
8.5 gr. Unique -- 1520 fps; 33,000 CUP
6.0 gr. Bullseye -- 1330 fps; 33,000 CUP
16.0 gr. 2400 -- 1660 fps; 36,000 CUP

158 gr. Lead:
11.0 gr. SR80 -- 1290 fps; 40,000 CUP
6.5 gr. Unique -- 1265 fps; 22,000 CUP

These are good velocities but keep in mind that Phil used 8-3/4" bbl. revolver to clock his loads. Modern Remington R357M1 (125 gr.) clocks at 1450 fps in my 4" M28; R357M2 (158 gr.) - at 1260 fps. Winchester and Speer sell full house loads with very similar ballistics. Some really hot loads are available from Buffalo Bore.

It is also interesting that Phil's top 38 special loads were every bit as powerful as his top 357 magnum loads. Now, that's 38 special we don't find in the hardware stores today.

:)

Mike

[stonecoldy]

I pulled out a Lyman Manual my ex father-in-law gave me that he had from pre-1957 (it doesn't list .458 Winchester Magnum loads, for example, but states they will be available in November 1957). Two pages of .357 loads-moderate and heavy.
For heavy they listed two powders for 4 different cast bullet weights-see below:

Using Unique powder
150 gr HP Thompson gas check (TGC), #358156HP
8.5 gr, 1506 fps
158 gr Solid Point TGC #358156
8.0 gr, 1398 fps
155 gr Keith HP, #358439
7.0 gr, 1315 fps
160 gr Plain Base #357446
8.5 gr, 1400 fps

Using 2400 Rifle
150 gr HP, TGC (see above)
16.0 gr, 1617 fps
158 gr Solid Point, TGC (see above)
15.5 gr, 1538 fps
155 gr Keith HP (see above)
15.0 gr, 1556 fps
160 gr Cast Plain Base (see above)
15.0 gr, 1550 fps

Note=these loads are above 25,000 lbs and for use in large Frame Revolvers in good condition only per page 116

[Oro]

I'd be interested to see .357 magnum recipes from the 30's. Where can I find this data?

Mike

I don't have the load data, but have found references to the pressures they generated (high 40s). Modern tests of these loads (old ammo stored since then) verified that pressure level and the reported velocities of the day (low 1500's from a 6 or 6.5" from a RM (aka pre-27).

I think the original powder MAY have been 2400, someone told me that once, but I have not seen anything authoritatively saying that. The powder was available then, and it's published data is very close to the Remington claimed velocities of the time with 158gr lead.

[ArchAngelCD]

easyrider6042004,
Thank you for what you wrote in post #16. I didn't think I misunderstood what the OP said. I stand by my words in post #4.

BTW Owen Sparks:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/ArchAngelCD/worthlessthread.gif

[VegasOPM]

Keep one thing in mind about regular digestion of hot loads. The frame of the 28 won't mind a bit. The issue will be flame cutting of the top strap. I have some older loading manuals from the 60's through the early 80's that are giving loadings of 15.0 gr of 2400 for over 1600 fps out of a 6" bbl with a 158gr. I have made up quite a few over the years and fired them in everything from 66's and 686's to Dan Wesson Model 15's and carbines. Those loads will start to flame cut the top strap after a few hundred rounds (ask me how I know). There are no signs of dangerous pressure, but they are relegated to my 1894 Carbine now... and my 66 is relegated to .38+p.:(

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

You're welcome, Archangel.

15.0 gr of 2400 for over 1600 fps out of a 6" bbl with a 158gr...Those loads will start to flame cut the top strap after a few hundred rounds.. There are no signs of dangerous pressure, but they are relegated to my 1894 Carbine now... and my 66 is relegated to .38+p.

I am surprised your flame cutting was caused by 158 grain loads. Threads here have recommended heavy bullets as compared to 125 grainers to eliminate flamecutting. I wonder if GP100s are prone to flamecutting. All my L frames have it and I'll be darned if my new GP will.

My 686 showed flamecutting with less than 100 rds of 125 grain JHP over 14 grains Blue Dot.:mad: So remaining loads are reserved for the 1894C as well.

[Master Blaster]

The flame cutting is self limiting and will not get any worse after a couple thousand rounds.

[harmonic]

Re flame cutting, the problem was evident in K frame 357s because of the smaller amount of metal at the top strap. The K frame wasn't intended to digest a regular load of mag ammo, hence the introduction of the L frame.

The 125 grain bullets driven to maximum velocities used large charges of relatively slow-burning powders. Handloaders know the powder types as WW296 and H-110, among others. The combination of slow ball-type powders and the short bearing surface of the 125 bullets allows prolonged gas cutting of the forcing cone and top strap area, accelerating erosion and wear.

Borescope studies of rifle, machine gun, and auto cannon chamber throats shows a lizzard-skin-like texture due to this gas cutting damage, called "brinelling". The results of brinelling are fine microcracks that weaken the surface of the steel, and further promote erosion. In machine guns and auto cannons, barrel life is measured in terms of "useable accuracy", and round counts that determine this are based on group sizes at engagement ranges.

In the K-frame magnums, the forcing cone dimensions combined with the barrel shank dimensions results in a relatively thin shank at the 6 o'clock position, where a machine cut is made to clear the crane. This is usually where the forcing cone cracks. The L and N frames use much beefier barrel shanks and do not have this cut. S&W intended the K frame magnums to be "carried much and fired seldom" service arms, designed to fire .38 Specials indefinitely, with light to moderate use of .357 Magnums. You notice that S&W has discontinued production of K frame .357 magnums, no doubt due to product liability issues and a couple generations of K frame magnum experience.



Back to the OP's question, the problem with the N frame 357 won't be with flame cutting since the frame is much beefier at the top strap.

The problem with the N frame was the cylinder stop. Since the cylinder is so massive, when people fired a lot of double action work, the little piece of metal known as the "cylinder stop," as well as the cylinder stop notch, would sometimes be battered to failure.

Of course, all the above is subject to my ability to remember things correctly, since I've slept since then.

[BCRider]

I think your memory is just fine harmonic. :D

My own M28 not only is showing some slopiness of the cylinder stop within the body opening but there's some peening of the stop notches in the cylinder. I think it saw a lot of fast pull double action work in its past. A slightly slower trigger pull that didn't "flick" the cylinder around so fast would not have produced that peening.

It remains to be seen what, if anything, I'll need to do to fix this or if it needs fixing.

[20nickels]

BC,
A new cylinder stop will fix a mild lockup problem, but a serious one where the notches are wallered out needs some gunsmithing. Those notches can be peened back over. This is not a gun for quick double taps.

[Owen Sparks]

This suits me as most of my magnum shooting is done single action. I have modern autos for IDPA. I am just looking to get the original punch out of my revolver when I shoot full house loads. Most of my general plinking is with lead bullers at around 1,000 fps.