Could deadly force have been used.


PDA






shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 01:45 AM
Today I was on the way home from picking my ten week old daughter up from the baby sitters and an 18 wheeler was riding my bumper. The guy was so close that if I tapped my brakes he would not have seen my tail lights. We were in a long straight away and it was a passing zone. I waved for the trucker to go around me for I was doing five miles above the speed limit but he wouldnt budge. I sped up to 75 and he stayed on my bumper. I sped up to 80 and he stayed there. Im not talking about one car length. This kenworth was within 3 feet of my bumper. I was really scared that if a car pulled out in front of me and I had to stop the truck was going to crush my small buick and he would have hit my daughter first. I waved for him to back off for he still could not see my brake lights. I tried to check the facial demeanor of the driver but I couldnt see his face for the truck was so close I couldnt see over the grill in my rear view. I thought the guy was going to ram me. I came to a fork in the road and hit it very fast to shake the guy. Had the fork not been there and he kept on my bumper and had actually hit my bumper, would I have been justified exhibit my weapon out the window in his direction. I mean this guy could have killed my little girl and me. I am a cop myself, I wouldnt prosecute someone in my shoes who did that, but in this increasingly liberal society, Im not sure what a grand jury would say. Your opinions please.

If you enjoyed reading about "Could deadly force have been used." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
HK G3
February 24, 2009, 01:50 AM
No, tailgating is NEVER justification for the use of deadly force or the display of a firearm.

The guy sounds like a terrible driver, and if you had his license plate, I'd report him to whatever company he belongs to.

wyocarp
February 24, 2009, 01:53 AM
I feel for you. Some truckers (actually a lot of truckers) use the size of their rigs to bully people on the highways. I've made an issue of it by calling or stopping highway patrols, but who knows how that helps.

I think you would be without a job and in trouble for showing your weapon if the trucker called about you.

armoredman
February 24, 2009, 01:53 AM
No, IMO you could have left the road at any time to avoid the conflict. IF he had followed you OFF the road to continue a confrontation, yes. Shooting from a moving vehicle is very very iffy at best. It doesn't sound like the right thing to do, but especially with your child, shooting in your car, unless to avoid immediate threat of life and limb, would have probably landed you in very very hot water. This wasn't covered in the academy?
I am glad you came through alright, but displaying a firearm, in my state, in these circumstances, would be, and has been, chargeable as aggravated assault.

Tennesseean
February 24, 2009, 01:54 AM
Ditto armoredman

I think you'd have a hard time convincing a DA that a semi on your bumper justified shooting at him. Not only would it be an extremely difficult shot and risky to all drivers on the road, but if you did shoot and wound/kill the driver, then you would have a runaway semi at a high rate of speed, which is an even more dangerous situation. That's bad news.

jerkface11
February 24, 2009, 01:54 AM
You need 3 seconds of separation between you and the vehicle in front of you. If the guy behind you is only a few feet away speeding up makes it WORSE. Always slow down when tailgated. In fact I simply take my foot off the gas pedal.

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 02:01 AM
That is unacceptable to me.

Get your vehicle out of that lane, get away from the rig, but... GET the truck number, company name.

If anything else get the DOT number off the side of the cab.

Once you have enough of that off that truck, even if it was a trailer number.

Then get the closest mile marker on the freeway where it happened and get the time of day.

Go straight to the telephone, find 1-800-555-1212 which is business 800 directory assistance (Is that number still working?) and get ahold of that trucking company.

Ask for safety. All truck drivers fear safety department.

If this is some kind of owner operator, get ahold of 911 and get the leo's involved.

DONT wave a gun out of your window. DONT stay in front of that fella.

GET out of the way.

Man, that sort of thing enrages me to no end, this tailgating stuff. By his simple act of tailgating, his desire to get to the customer with the cargo overrides his regard for human life.

That driver ought to be removed from the road.

But before you do anything, get out of the way and start getting information off that tractor and trailer as much as you can. Then your location and start contacting the company that owns the truck or 911.

If you do get out from under the front bumper with the information, get off the free way or at least allow the hot head to get by, always stay behind him about 200 feet away, no closer. This way he cannot do a certain tatic that will decapitate you. (Make that about 4 seconds. It takes about that much for 18 wheeler brakes to generate the power necessary to make it happen)

Deescalate a tailgating trucker, gather information off the truck itself, get time of day, your location and start contacting authorities and company safety department.

Dont accept a brush off from the secrectary. Tell them that your life and that of your child was in imminent danger and you are not going to accept anything less than prosecution of that driver starting with his firing by the saftety department.

Long ago there was impatience and poor professionalism resulting in tailgating and now it's just simple attempt to clear the road. Something has gone very deeply wrong with that driver and it's up to you to get your child out of there.

No different than a SUV coming up to your bumper in rush hour because you were too slow.

Your car at 3000 pounds is simply a bump and grind to a 40 tonner at 75 mph. he wont even hear your screams.

NOT acceptable.

Suppose you did shoot the driver. Yeehaw!! you got im!! great!


sorry sir. Now you have BUILT a flying dutchman truck in a straight line due to mass, momentum and physics. It;s NO longer about YOU but now endangers ALL on both sides of that interstate.

Eventually he will probably bounce into the opposing lines of traffic and kill 30 cars, wreck 4 trucks and god knows what else carnage.

Are you still happy you shot that driver?

No. Do it right. Get him called in to the company, and follow up. Prosecute him as well. Who knows? Company might settle with you with a bit of money for your scare. But if they do it right, that driver will never ever drive anything else besides a farm or carnival truck ever again.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 02:06 AM
I understand simple tailgating. But this was an 18 wheeler rock truck pushing probably 60,000 lbs. I gave him every opportunity to back off or pass. I even exceeded the posted speed limit by 25 mile an hour. One definition of assault with a deadly weapon is when a person attempts by physical menace or a deadly weapon to put another in fear of imminient serious bodily harm or physical injury or death. And I believe the kenworth was a deadly weapon. I dont believe in reaching for a gun unless there is no other way out. I tried to get away from the guy and if not for the fork in the road I could not escape him. I drive an 84 buick skylark that is paid for but is no longer a spring chicken. I could not have beated the truck with mere speed. I was at the point where I had to get the guy off of me or my daughter and I were going to get hurt. I couldnt get the tag number because it was on the back of the truck and I took the turn off so fast I couldnt get turned around in time to catch him plus Im not chasing people with my kid in the car. I also know that the tag numbers on trucks cannot be run through ncic unless you have the vin which is of course on the truck.

swagner89
February 24, 2009, 02:13 AM
cops don't prosecute people; prosecutors do- cops just make the arrest. speeding up is probably the worst idea to get rid of a tailgater next to waving a gun wildly behind you. a trained police officer would not do any of the things described here. this whole story doesn't add up...
BS!

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 02:13 AM
It's not about the Ncic. There is a entire layer based on teh Federal Motor Carriers in the Government regulating trucking and tied in pretty close with law enforcement on many levels.

It about company name, any other number on the unit and getting the word out.

If you had a cell phone call 911. They can triangulate you very fast and realize that there is a problem.

It seems to me you survived this time around, Im trying to give you mental pathways to avoid the next.

But whatever you do, dont wave that gun out of the window. The trucker may already be mentally ill in a way and that would just cause him to go bump to you "oops did I do that" while you spin out and flip over many times.


What I do in my car is keep a camcorder, digital cam and cell phone. If a problem develops, I snap pictures or take video and get the hell out of there. I have two vehicles that are reasonable in performace and can outrun most rigs except the really serious dollar trucks (Dollar truck = 100 mph or greater) most are governed about 67 through 73 or so.

The imagery is enough to be good in court once they do find the fella.

jakk280rem
February 24, 2009, 02:14 AM
lethal force is a last resort, not a preemptive action. a cal to 911 would be a first step. a second step would be to change lanes and slow down allowing the truck to continue on the way. if he had hit you, tried to run you off the road, that could be constued as assault with a deadly weapon and a more serious approach taken.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 02:15 AM
Understand gentlemen. I did not even think of drawing my weapon at the time. I was only asking for your opinions. I began thinking about the use of deadly force after I lost the guy. I dont think that this guy was just in a hurry I think that he was just a bully. The way he was driving and he was so close that if i did begin to slow down his bumper would have made contact with mine before he could have slowwed down because I know that he could not see my bumper for the nose of his truck was in the way. Im new to this daddy thing. There are things that you consider when your whole life is facing towards a big rig in a rear facing child safety seat than you would when it was just you on the way back from a couple of hours at the range.

Varminthound
February 24, 2009, 02:20 AM
Better to wave your badge than your weapon.

Easy to offer advice since I wasn't there but the prime directive is to stay alive and you kept your child and you alive.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 02:21 AM
I try not to get my dander up when in a discussion but swagner89, you can take your BS and....well.... it isnt worth it. There was no gun waving, my gun never left the holster, at the time all I was worried about was getting my daughter out of that situation and I did. My curiosity of opinions from common folks and not guys in the locker room got the best of me and I asked. There is no reason for you to get that kind of an attitude. I made no attacks on your character and I would appreciate it if you would not make any towards mine.

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 02:21 AM
I say this. Bullies bad, angry daddies worse.

I have had daddies come up to me and bark at me in a towering rage to move my rig off that parking lot because the wind was drifting fumes from my exhaust into a child's bedroom on a summer night.

Angry daddy is a happy dad very fast.

But bullies behind the wheel of a semi is really bad. Life and death bad.

Long ago on Sandstone a truck was out of braking power and out of control, we put the trailer on him and hold im there to stop for the both of us. That little story wont go any further than that, but it was a sort of touch and go for a bit. Fortunatley no one else was around in cars to complicate that situation.

But I will tell you this, You are a Daddy, take care and protect your family out there. Im just a worn out old has been who cannot smell desiel without going back 30 years. But Bullies bad, angry daddies who effectively follow up are more bad-bad.


:D

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 02:25 AM
Appearently swagner89 is from a big city. Here in my little backwoods corner of mississippi the prosocutors do prosocute, however the dirt road deputy is the one who puts all the evidence together and takes the case to grand jury. If there deputy doesnt think that a crime was committed then he does not take it to the grand jury and then the prosocutor doesnt know that anything ever happened.

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 02:29 AM
Well, much can be said for large parts of the USA and borders.

Alot of things good and bad has happend and no one the wiser.

Something about small towns and out of way places. You aint in Kansas any more Toto and Dorthy.

Some strange situations that would be normal in a North east city just does not fly in tumbleweed town out west LOL.

But yer still here, and I can probably generate any number of places on the interstate where this may happened. But you got out of it and next time, calmly gather information on the rig, hopefully by the time you see it coming in time to get out of the way. =)

But you know what?

Take heart that life has a circle. That bully may have gotten by ya that time, but dont worry.... something will come along to complicate this poor fella's world. Things have a way of coming around what goes around, ya know?

Cheers.

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 02:37 AM
I have had semis taligate me, to the point I thought I could count the bugs in the radiator. However I find it hard to believe that trying to shoot them VS just pulling over/taking the next exit will be seen as justifiable. Did they try to run you off the road? Did they ram your car? Did they display a weapon of their own? Were you shot at? All of thoes things would make it more reasonable when it comes to using deadly force.

Putting your gun out the window is going to acomplish what exactly? If your a cop you should know that doing that is stupid. Your badge would be a better idea. Or even better pull over and get the information you need and call the local police.

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 02:44 AM
To be honest, to bring down a semi that has... a few wheels short a a loose nut in the cab requires an army and coordinated response.

If I had one cop pull me over, fine.

If I had 40 cops come up next to me in convoy but indicate that we were not targets, just a cover for the actual perp target car to our right....

But if I went nutzo and loose gone with a semi, it is by rights a very deadly weapon and requires a entire county, state and maybe federal response tatically to stop it. I would not care about those teeny stop sticks, I would bury the cop and his car. and keep going.

But gentlemen, dont think that last paragraph a threat, just a thought of what might happens if a semi driver loses contact with professonalism or possibly reality itself and starts to endanger life.

There is a line between those who dont get hurt (AWESOME!!! Execellent) and those who do. And folks, it's never pretty.

However, that being said, one good slug shotgun in the right places on a rig in a number of spots WILL stop the thing. Maybe not right away, but will stop it. And that is best left to law enforcement.

2ndAmFan
February 24, 2009, 02:46 AM
Bad scene and I'm glad you and your daughter didn't get hurt. I have to agree with the majority here that even though the trucker was endangering your lives lethal force, or the threat of it wouldn't have been justified since he hadn't harmed either of you or clearly indicated that he intended deliberate harm to you or your daughter. Showing your gun could have backfired and gotten you into a lethal force encounter which you successfully avoided by taking the action you did.
Assuming you had a phone, calling 911 and giving them as much info as you could, and getting off the road ASAP and letting him go past, not necessarily in that order, were probably your best options since you were armed and prepared in case he followed when you pulled off and things got really ugly. I don't know where you were at the time, but if there was any way (Uphill stretch, tight curve, etc,) you could gain even a few feet to get off the road and away from him that would have been the most important thing.
I used to ride a motorcycle and you'd be amazed at the number of car drivers who would never tailgate another car but will crawl right up the tail pipe of a bike, not realizing they're trying to kill you, so I can really identify with your experience. I've known more than a few bikers who carried just for that scenario but I can't say it's a good way to deal with such a threat. I think it's best to get out of harm's way if you can.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 02:49 AM
would I have been justified exhibit my weapon out the window in his direction

This was my original QUESTION. Not my original ACTION. I did NOT, nor did I CONSIDER exhibiting my weapon out the window. After the situation was over I did as all people do, I began to run different scenarios through my mind and I was curious what a laymans opinion was. gregry, you need to pay attention to the opening thread in its entirety before you begin telling someone that something they did was stupid when they never did what you said was stupid. Yes I am a cop. Civilians are what the grand jury is made up of. I knew what kind of answer I would get from a cop because I could have just asked myself. You are welcome for the oportunity to belittle someone to make yourself feel better. A quesion is only stupid when it is never asked.

swagner89
February 24, 2009, 02:51 AM
did you wave your .45 glock 22 or your vaseline covered POS Llama that you bought from a DEA agent impersonator?
come on!... did you come up with "DISCOMFORT TO ALL ANTIS" by yourself or did your parents help you?

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 02:51 AM
One other thing I learned in there hills and hollows long ago.

One person in trouble they will come running.

One LEO in trouble, they pour out of the woodwork.

I have been on the nicest quietest scenic byway two laners all my by contentment tooling along and these "Bears" rip by going straight to trouble. That bearcat on the dash would tell me of trouble up ahead and I would go around.

But if a trucker makes trouble? That is not going to get too far today in this age of satellite, technology and networked radio comms.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 02:55 AM
I have never understood why cops in the hot pursuit videos spend round after round shooting at the tires when all you have to do is plant a slug, buck shot, or a few pistol rounds into the radiator and as soon as that engine starts to heat up, the computer will shut it down. If I had it to do over again I would not have idenified myself as a cop in the opening thread. It seems that cops recieve ten times the criticism for thinking human thoughts.

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 02:59 AM
Well, I talked to you person to person because you were a daddy with a child in a car in a bad position. I did not take into account at the time your work or status in life.

I hope that you did not take offense at some of the things I said, but sometimes out there on the big road, there are truths in cold. The rest is just stories with a grain.

I told you how it is and hopefully... it will work out next time, sadly there will be a next time as the quality of truckers seem to have declined with the new generation coming on.

Oh, if you ever shoot a radiator, aim for the top left (YOur left side) of the grill. There is usually a intercooler pipe there about 6 inches thick. Disrupt that in addition to poking a hole in the rad will cause about a 60% loss in horsepower to the engine and create a steamboat pouring inky smoke all over.

If your slug is good, it might go into the turbocharger behind that as well. It dont take much. As the metal casing is already red-hot under pressure during engine operation.

That will be on the truck's RIGHT front. The left side contains teh engine's ECM block not much smaller than a computer case under your desk and a number of electrical boards plus a coolant holder that will trip and shut it down.

Shooting a tire from the side will generate a zipper failure of it and it will be a bomb that will destroy your vehicle and lace all nearby with shrap, metal in the form of very large peices of murderous sharp steel wool from hell.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:00 AM
Hey swagner, I didnt know they made a .45 glock 22, I will have to get me one of those, better yet, you find me one and I will give you a grand for it, Ill even pay shipping.

lesterg3
February 24, 2009, 03:01 AM
I liked the Seagulls advice, that and if you had your badge and you should have stuck it out the window.

I travel through the mountains of the Virginia's and the Blue Ridge to Tennessee often, and generally try to stay away from other drivers, but there always seems to be a trucker that just has to be an a$$ and tail gate.

Here is what I do, I wait till we are going up a long steep hill and take my foot off the gas, if he changes lanes so do I. It is amazing how fast those big rigs slow down and further amazing how long it takes them to get back up to speed. Then I hightail it out of there, may even get off at an exit and wait for him to pass, because I will guarantee he is really gonna be pissed.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:04 AM
Your discussion etiquette has been impecable hungry bird. Its just the likes of swagner and gregry. Im sure that instead of reaping the educational benefits of a forum such as this that they merely comb the threads looking to misread or misunderstand a members literature so that they can feel better about their personal inadequacies.

ThrottleJockey
February 24, 2009, 03:07 AM
As a cop, you would not and could not "prosecute" anyone no matter how bad you may want to, or think you can.
As a truck driver this guy was way out in left field. Definitely NOT a professional, but more of a steering wheel holder. He should have his CDL removed. He gives us a bad name.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:08 AM
You would be surprised that in the old money politically motivated police and sheriffs departments of the south, you would get into just as much trouble for flashing your badge as you would your gun. People dont understand that that small shiny piece of tin doesnt give off the desired effect coming from a civiliaN vehicle. We have so many volunteer fire departments here and their badges are identical to ours except theirs says volunteer fire department and ours says SUE ME!

ThrottleJockey
February 24, 2009, 03:09 AM
+1 Swagner, I call BS

Seagull is right. I am a PROFESSIONAL truck driver/owner operator, I think he is on point with his advice.

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 03:09 AM
Good night everyone.

Not often I run into a threat that kept me up past my bedtime.

Oh regarding those hot pursuit videos, I remember a few on TV... it's all good when LEO's are plinking away at all the tires.....

pick pick pick pick pick..... eventually giant topples.

No tires, no go. Start with the first set of drives on the tractor.

Cheers all.

Now back to guns shall we?

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:12 AM
I didnt say that I could prosecute. I only said that officers and deputies here are responsible for making cases to take to the grand jury for an indictment. If an officer does not make the grand jury file to take to the grand jury, the prosocutor doesnt know anything about it. Here the prosocutor doesnt prosocute unless we ask him to and there is sufficient evidence to convince a grand jury that there is enough probable cause for trial.

swagner89
February 24, 2009, 03:17 AM
this being "the high road", i really have no interest in pursuing a flame war. by the same token, i don't appreciate reading fabrications created by either a 10 year old kid or a anti-gunner phishing for quotes to use in political propaganda. there is no way you are a law enforcement officer, so quit posting this bull****!

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 03:22 AM
I have never understood why cops in the hot pursuit videos spend round after round shooting at the tires when all you have to do is plant a slug, buck shot, or a few pistol rounds into the radiator and as soon as that engine starts to heat up, the computer will shut it down. If I had it to do over again I would not have idenified myself as a cop in the opening thread. It seems that cops recieve ten times the criticism for thinking human thoughts.

I drove a 2000 chevy venture van 20 miles in stop and go traffic with the engine temp pinged in the red. It had a blown head gasket, and would overheat. On the freeway it would have been able to continue on for a lot longer. Even with many modern cars you are talking 10 or more miles with little to no coolant if your at higher speeds. Older cars (read many older then the mid 90s) would likely keep going until the motor seized up. Shooting the tires out (which is stupid and rarely done in my state) would limit a persons speed, and handling. It will likely make it harder for them to get away.



Back to the original post.

I am not a fan of threating the use of deadly force to try to gain compliance. Main reason being if you threaten someone with deadly force, and your not legaly able to use it, people will call your bluff. That might mean trying to run you off the road, shoot at you, or advance on your position because they know if you shoot them your screwed legaly (aka often in attempted suicide by cop). I don't want to be trying to defend my actions of waving a pistol at someone in court (let alone shooting at someone), when their defense is "Yes I was tailgaiting them a bit. I tried to pass them only to have them point a gun at me, which prompted me to shoot at them/try to run them off the road". Jurys don't like driving cases where guns/crowbars/etc are involved because they are going to see it as out of control road rage where both people are just as guilty.

Who really is guilty here? If your action of pointing your pistol out the window wasn't legal (and in your situation you might have trouble justifying it) the other person might just be able to claim self defense if they tried to run you off the road. Again the anti mindset against people CCWing tends to be because it will keep people from shooting eachother during road rage/tailgaiting events. You waving your gun is a elevation of force, let alone if you use it. Like I said many people are going to see such things as just road rage to the extreme. Showing your badge is a elevation of force (That isn't really capable of generating a defense for the other person to try to run you off the road) that is better suited in your case. It would be completely reasonable to get off the highway/pull over/etc and get all the information you can. Of course if the truck driver was ramming your car, swerving in an attempt to run you off the road, or anything like that, by all means defend yourself.

Hungry Seagull
February 24, 2009, 03:27 AM
Trucks are sensitive these days with thier fancy computers.

Ive climbed out of the Catskills with a blown engine puttering along with everything in the red for a long time. No computer to stop anything. It's just a matter of good old fashioned AMERICAN engineering and thermal strength against eventual failure.

Today's trucks will want to shut down when you so much as drip from the cooling system. Ugh.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:30 AM
Cars will continue because they are driven by the owners who if they wish, can drive the car with the temp guage in the red and they will have to fit the bill. However semi trucks come factory with a computer shut off so that if the oil pressure gets too low, or high, or the engine gets too hot, the computer will kill the engine automatically to prevent total engine death. The company owners know that truck drivers are like everyone else, HUMAN, if they dont notice the check engine light that is blinking, the computer will eliminate operator error that would ultimately cost the company alot more money than a tow bill.

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 03:36 AM
this being "the high road", i really have no interest in pursuing a flame war. by the same token, i don't appreciate reading fabrications created by either a 10 year old kid or a anti-gunner phishing for quotes to use in political propaganda. there is no way you are a law enforcement officer, so quit posting this bull****!

If you think people are on here trying to fish for quotes to use in political propaganda maybe you need to have your tin foil hat copper plated and lined with lead. They do just fine making up anything they want or taking information and quotes from movies. It really gets me how one of the first things that people accuse others of being is some anti gun person thatís just out to bust the RKABA's balls.

Although I am unsure of the status of the persons LE career (due to the question asked) I know he very well could be. I know many officers that are not very knowledgeable about certain things involved with the use of force. He posed a good question that could benifit people on here if they believe that they could and should point their gun out the window in the situation he posted.

Even if he is not who he says he is, what he posted is no threat to THR considering the responses he is going to get are going to reflect that most of us are reasonable people that aren't out to shoot first. The attitude here is going to be mostly a detriment to any anti gun people since they aren't going to find the info to fill their opinion of us being unsafe, power hungry, psychos that love to kill. However accusations that members are ďthe enemyĒ and out to do everyone harm show attitudes we donít want to reflect to others, mainly because it perpetuates the image of gun owners being unreasonable, and conspiracy theorists.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:45 AM
I was bragging to my wife about how I loved thehighroad.org and how you can actually talk to inteligent people who give good feed back whether it be in your favor or not. I simply wanted to know the civilian perspective on one of a million alternatives that I could have utilized AND DID NOT. Instead a new member with probably no more than a ged who has appearently developed a crush on me can ruin one of the few good things that the internet has to offer. Good night all. I do ask that you refrain from visiting any of my future threads swagner89, just to let you know that cyberstalking is a felony. Stay out of mississippi. Thank you for your input gregry

MR.LOKI
February 24, 2009, 03:49 AM
Dont mean it to be a personal attack, but are you a reserve officer ?

The question is not one I would ever think to hear from a fellow Officer, and 18 wheelers usually dispaly a tag on the front of the rig. you can run a vreg check on the trailer tag also. You dont need the vin.

If you really are an Officer, please run do not walk to your Departments training Officer and seek assistance.




Lol cyberstalking is a felony in mississippi huh, wow dont know mississippi penal code but i doubt posting on a forum like thie would meet the required elements of that crime. Oh and a quick question what is the penalty for impersonating a police Officer in mississippi ?

Rockwell1
February 24, 2009, 03:54 AM
First off ignore the troll

I could not have beated the truck with mere speed.

So had you displayed a weapon you couldn't have stopped him from running you off the road?

I'll let you think that one through on your own

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:54 AM
call a dispather in north miss and tell them 2 run a apportioned tag and they will tell you that without the vin u cant get anything back.

Rockwell1
February 24, 2009, 03:56 AM
Oh and a quick question what is the penalty for impersonating a police Officer in mississippi ?

Probably the same as impersonating a Marine in Upstate New York

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 03:58 AM
my buick against the truck. IF there was no escape it seems to be the only way to scare him into backing off.

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 03:59 AM
Mr loki you are not a police officer yourself, considering you have claimed to be a sniper in the armed forces, and I believe a gun store employee. The sniper situation was already proved to be false, so why are you claiming to be an officer now?

Not all officers completely understand the law. I don't recall in my use of force training any mention of a sitaution like was posted. It is a good sitaution to think about for everyone since many people (like me) find themselves being tailgated every day. Now I have had more training then most officers in my state when it comes to the use of force. I am better able to distiguish legal from illegal when it comes to the use of force, then many officers. So I could easily see such a question comming from an actual officer. Its not even that unreasonable of a question, and it sounds like he handled it properly. Its even more resonable when I think of how other officers have asked me if its legal to search a house without a warrant, and if they have to shoot someone. Probably even worse questions that I can't even think of right now.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 04:01 AM
its a felony nation wide. what is up with these new members. according to statute its a felony to harass by text message.

MR.LOKI
February 24, 2009, 04:01 AM
Lol,

MR.LOKI
February 24, 2009, 04:05 AM
84 Buick , wow yall need to hire better negotiators for your next contract.

Rockwell1
February 24, 2009, 04:06 AM
my buick against the truck. IF there was no escape it seems to be the only way to scare him into backing off

Now I'm beginning to wonder. Drawing a weapon to "scare someone off” is called "brandishing a weapon" and "aggravated felony menacing" where I'm from and it's worth a year or two in the Graybar hotel and permanent revocation of your 2nd amendment rights. One would think a police officer would know that

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 04:06 AM
if i had it to do over again i should have asked "what would you have done. mr loki, is that the wierd guy with he rifle from yesterday? i know the law its just that with my brand new baby girl in the back, i would quit being a cop in a second to protect her. daddys dont think like cops. i should have asked that question at a daddy site and excluded the cop thing.

Rockwell1
February 24, 2009, 04:09 AM
Mr loki you are not a police officer yourself, considering you have claimed to be a sniper in the armed forces, and I believe a gun store employee. The sniper situation was already proved to be false, so why are you claiming to be an officer now?

This guys been a member since 06 the wannabe's only been around a day or so

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 04:13 AM
I try to write those tickets but its always the mayors cousin, or the chiefs golfing buddys kid and the ticket gets thrown out. i never use radar. i speed so if i have to have a machine to tell me your speeding. i dont care. i wrote a girl for tailgating me in a patrol car. her granddad was the builing inspector. bye bye ticket

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 04:15 AM
my buick against the truck. IF there was no escape it seems to be the only way to scare him into backing off.

It comes down to weapon, intent, delivery system.

Did they have a weapon? Yes, the truck could serve as a weapon

Intent? The intent is iffy. There intent as far as I could tell was they wanted to drive as fast as you would allow. Believe it or not some drivers are just bad and they think they are ok if they follow you on your bumper. Since they think "well I have control of the throttle, and I wont hit them" they think they are ok. However to the person they are following its a completely different story. Again if the person had rammed your car, swerved in a manner to push you off the road (more so then in a case where they might not have seen you in their mirror) or something like that, you have intent. In the case posted the intent to cause you great bodily harm or death just isn't there. Its more of a case of bad driving on the truck drivers part.

Delivery system: The semi when used in a manner to put you off the road the delivery system.


We know the situation doesn't warrant the use of deadly force. However the displaying of force to end the situation can be appropriate. If a gun is the only option you have, and you canít slow down/take a exit/speed up/escape the situation, then its better then nothing. However flashing a gun in that manner might not be legal per your states laws. Calling 911 on a cell phone and having the police show up will be a good thing to do. Since your not in a squad car, and you have your family to think of, its unsafe to try to take matters into your own hands in that situation.

I have been in the same situation as you except I was being tailgaited by a semi in a 1 lane construction zone. I really was afraid if I put on the brakes at all I was going to be run over. What I ended up doing is bailing on the next available exit. Even if the person was trying to ram me I would have tried to speed up as fast as I could rather then try to get a shot out to stop the driver had I been armed at the time. At high speeds and under stress the last thing you need to be worrying about is shooting behind you at such a small target. The semi has you beat, your car wont stand up to it, and odds of getting a shot that stops the threat is slim. Even displaying a gun isnít likely to do much since the person might not even see it. Even if they do who knows how they will react. Its better to get the hell out of dodge if at all possible.

swagner89
February 24, 2009, 04:15 AM
thank you throttlejockey and mr.loki for stepping up and questioning that which needs to be questioned. so few are willing to do so. shootistpd27, the 1st amendment protects your right to free speech, and so protects my right as well. so if you continue to sling your bull**** in my path, i will be there to call you out! if you really were a police officer, i would shudder at not only your apparent ignorance for the precepts of law, but also for your ineptitude in dealing with any crisis situation. but i'm not worried...

Rockwell1
February 24, 2009, 04:15 AM
Goodnight

MR.LOKI
February 24, 2009, 04:15 AM
It is really much ado about nothing a larger vehicle was on your butt for a bit, wow welcome to driving a car, If your a cop that should not have caused all this bother, call it in if your that worried and have him stopped.

Wanting to brandish your gun at him, is what you wanted to do and you were posting here hoping to get support for that thought.

I do not believe you to be a full time Officer, you sound like a reserve who is ate up or a hanger on who has police friends. If I am mistaken my apologies but also in that case please run do not walk to your training Officer and ask for assistance.

shootistpd27
February 24, 2009, 04:20 AM
u can read swagner. but u cant comprehend. we have been discussing a scenario. no real action.

Davek1977
February 24, 2009, 04:22 AM
I came to a fork in the road and hit it very fast to shake the guy. Had the fork not been there and he kept on my bumper and had actually hit my bumper, would I have been justified exhibit my weapon out the window in his direction. I mean this guy could have killed my little girl and me. I am a cop myself

I find it INCREDIBLY scary we have members of law enforcement with such a poor understanding of the law that questions like this need to be asked, personaly

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 04:24 AM
Like I said I have no idea on his status. I do know that I have met many officers that didn't understand the use of force very well. It gets worse in states with poor training/standard levels for officers, and with older officers. I would like to think any officer in this state would know the answer to the question posted, however I know that simply isn't the case.

How I react and how other people that trained with me react can be very different. This was completely evident in scenario based training. Everyone was close to the same page in book training, but everyone reacted completely different in the actual hands on scenarios. Some were good, others were bad (Such as fellow students/officers in training knee striking people who didn't listen to their orders.

The moral of this story is that he apparently did the best thing possible, and that if he is in law enforcement he knows that he needs to take some refresher courses.

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 04:30 AM
I find it INCREDIBLY scary we have members of law enforcement with such a poor understanding of the law that questions like this need to be asked, personaly

You aren't required to be an expert on the use of force to be an officer, just reaonable. There are numerous people that I witnessed do insanely stupid things in recruit training, such as shooting a unarmed person 2 times with a sim gun, (the person was on his knees, hands visable), and students that knee struck people with no reason to. Some of the people gave me doubts as to their ability to understand the use of force. They all passed the classes despite their questionable responses in training. I assure you that they would easily be capable of asking questions such as the on in the OP and much much worse.

swagner89
February 24, 2009, 04:36 AM
shootistpd27- "we have been discussing a scenario. no real action." exactly. this is all fairy tale. so why don't you just pose the question as hypothetical, instead of making up phony stories? the former i wouldnt mind; the latter is wasting my time more than i already have. quit BS'ing and be real.

GregGry- if you have met officers that are as retarded as the premise of this story, then that is REALLY scary, because i believe you are genuine.

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 05:15 AM
Past instructors of mine have talked about going down to Georgia and southern states to do legal training. They said that they ran into officers that couldn't write, so they had to call another officer to show up to write the ticket. This was 8 to 10 years ago that this happened to them, so in all fairness things are likely better and I am sure that such things didn't reflect more then a small percentage of officers.

I have even been witness to officers asking law professors how they could "work around a law". When it comes to use of force my state has significant training requirements when compared to other states. That doesn't mean its impossible to get hired unless your a use of force master. I know of many people that can pass the classes but they can't really comprehend the use of force on the fly. Thus there were people knee striking others when it wasn't justified. I have always taken that careful "in control approach" to things. I easily found out who was like me when it came to pursuit driving, and general handling of vehicle skills. To many people tried to push the car to the limits and past. In all fairness it was mostly younger people.



I will admit the original post did have me worried because I would expect a trained officer would understand the answer to the question posed. In my case I can pretty much figure out on my own the chances of use of force being legal/justified. However not everyone I know is capable of doing such a thing. It really is unfortunate that they would be in charge of so many things that deal with the use of force yet they don't truly understand it.

Davek1977
February 24, 2009, 06:00 AM
I assure you that they would easily be capable of asking questions such as the on in the OP and much much worse. LOL...well, that does anything but reassure me!!! You'd think the use of force would be an area training was comprehensive in. I realize theres a lot to learn about being a cop, but common sense should be a requirement, you'd think. I too had to learn the use of force continum as a corrections officer, and while not what I'd call an "expert" in the field, it seeemd pretty straightforeward and based in common sense...more or less, never use more force than is necessary to control the situation at hand. I realize thats a gross oversimplification, but in reality, thats what it boils down to.

I still find it EXTREMELY scary we have LEO's who are so confused as to when they can and can't pull a gun that he'd even PONDER waving a gun out the window at someone tailgating him. Maybe I missed it, but was pulling over to the side of the road and allowing the truck by ever considered as an option? Lord knows I'd do that before thinking I was justified in blasting the guy....




I am a cop myself, I wouldnt prosecute someone in my shoes who did that

I didnt say that I could prosecute
its easy enough to see why people would jump on that detail, the way you've written it......

fingerbanger
February 24, 2009, 08:47 AM
" Mr loki you are not a police officer yourself, considering you have claimed to be a sniper in the armed forces, and I believe a gun store employee. The sniper situation was already proved to be false, so why are you claiming to be an officer now? "

If I was drinking milk it would have come out my nose.

Alright I can't help but laugh my arse off at this. So you have been a member since 06 and have all of 5 posts? And decide to chime in now. Talk about bad timing! You do know that like yesterday, some jackball named Loki was pretending to be some super secrete sniper right? I'm not bashing man, I have taken some heat for my screen name too, but you have to see the humor in this.

GregGry
February 24, 2009, 09:05 AM
Yes it was apparently bad timing. The post count was correct for the other person. I guess i can't be faulted for jumping the gun so to say, since the odds of the name being very similar are pretty low. Especially with the post count.

Just One Shot
February 24, 2009, 09:27 AM
I don't understand why you didn't make your get away by pulling to the side of the road, take up a position behind the truck and then call your local Police/Sheriff dept. and ask for assistance.

Even when not in uniform you can still call for backup. I'm no lawyer but isn't there a thing called citizen's arrest that could apply in situations where human life is placed in jeopardy?
:confused:

Art Eatman
February 24, 2009, 10:02 AM
Asking about behavior in a threatening traffic situation? Folks seem willing to get conned into almost any subject, even when guns are not part of the discussion.

This is THR, not "Common Sense 101".

If you enjoyed reading about "Could deadly force have been used." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!