BATF wants to talk to me


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mm1ut1
February 24, 2009, 06:36 AM
Dealer told me yesterday the BATF was asking questions about me because I've bought a lot (2-3/mo for the last year) of guns. He said they would contact me soon. No sign of any black vans or helos yet. Anyone have this happen to you? I'm not a dealer or C&R holder. My wife is having visions of swat teams crashing down the doors and is really upset. Think they would have better things to do than harrass a law abiding citizen. Think I'll ask them if they are hiring......

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Ohio Gun Guy
February 24, 2009, 06:40 AM
Big brother is knocking.

Its just my, non-lawer / internet opinion, but they are probably looking to see if you are running a firearms business without an FFL. They may be looking to see if you are keeping these guns (Not reselling them for profit)

I personally, do not like these "Rules" they set out as they are not well defined, and they dont want them to be.

Bill2e
February 24, 2009, 07:26 AM
How would they know unless you bought multiple handguns within a two weak period?

That being said, they probably want to make sure your not straw purchasing guns.

Animal Mother
February 24, 2009, 07:30 AM
I'll be willing to make a small wager that you've bought more than one handgun within a period of five days. Totally legal of course, but big brother gets their knickers in a twist when you do that.

F5) As a licensed dealer, must I advise ATF if I sell more than one handgun to an individual?

If you sell or dispose of more than one handgun to any non-licensee during a period of 5 consecutive business days, the sale must be reported on ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, not later than the close of the business day on which you sold or disposed of the second handgun. The licensee must forward a copy of the Form 3310.4 to the ATF office specified thereon, and another copy must be forwarded to the State police or local law enforcement agency where the sale occurred. A copy of the Form 3310.4 also must be attached to the firearms transaction record, ATF Form 4473, documenting the sale or disposition of the second handgun.

Deanimator
February 24, 2009, 07:46 AM
Get a lawyer, YESTERDAY.

They have such a history of lying that they once made an official training video on how to lie under oath in court about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system.

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 08:02 AM
How would they know unless you bought multiple handguns within a two weak period?

They may have audited the FFL's bound book as part of a regular audit.

I'm not sure that they can legally pull names from that and go question those folks.

Lawyer time if they actually call you.

But, since the gun store guy is the only person you've heard from I'd wait.

In the meantime, I wouldn't do business with that particular gun store. How well do you know the guy?

You sure HE isn't the one calling ATF about YOU? (not a lawyer etc etc)

mm1ut1
February 24, 2009, 08:11 AM
Might have bought two handguns in the same two week period, a Ruger Mk2 and a S&W 1917. Not exactly gang banger material. Still have the Mk2, but sold the S&W. Since I always go through my dealer(buying and selling) I can hardly be accused of being a straw gun purchaser. I was there when the agent was doing the folowup at my dealer. She was pretty young so maybe she's just not been exposed to the enthusists like me who shoot in a lot of different types of matches, ie bullseye, practical pistol, high power rifle, CMP matches, et cet. I also like to try different milsurp rifles and if they don't strike a cord I sell them via my dealer. We'll see......:rolleyes:

mm1ut1
February 24, 2009, 08:12 AM
Dealer is a great guy. He likes his transfer fees!

sernv99
February 24, 2009, 08:19 AM
you shouldn't make assumptions without knowing all the facts. Conspiracy theorists abound around here.:rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 08:22 AM
Might have bought two handguns in the same two week period,

If you bought 2 within 5 business days of each other you got turned in :)



If you sell or dispose of more than one handgun to any non-licensee during a period of 5 consecutive business days, the sale must be reported on ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, not later than the close of the business day on which you sold or disposed of the second handgun.

Conspiracy theorists abound around here

it happens often enough where a dealer is suspicious and makes a call. It's hardly unusual or "conspiracy theory".

I've heard of quite a bit lately here in Texas. ATF is really looking close at dealers and their transactions here because of the border business going on.

sernv99
February 24, 2009, 08:26 AM
"They have such a history of lying that they once made an official training video on how to lie under oath in court about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system."

so the ATF makes an official training video on how to lie under oath under the pretense that it would probably be easily leaked to the public thereby exposing this tactic that they use? Hmmm, interesting.:rolleyes:...what's next, CIA making a training video on how to waterboard prisoners and letting it freely float around the CIA with the probable chance it would be leaked to the public and media?? Think before you type, because your logic doesn't add up. Do you really think ATF would make such a training video without thinking about the 100% chance that it would eventually be leaked to the public/media??

MachIVshooter
February 24, 2009, 08:28 AM
Something isn't right here. I'm gonna wait for the rest of the story.

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 08:28 AM
Do you really think ATF would make such a training video without thinking about the 100% chance that it would eventually be leaked to the public/media??

Think before you type, because your logic doesn't add up.

Maybe you should take your own advice. JPFO has footage.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3822

http://shop.jpfo.org/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=84

Duke of Doubt
February 24, 2009, 08:38 AM
I won't give the OP specific advice on this thread, other than to contact a lawyer.

Many of the rest of you know my thoughts on these matters as a general thing. I like guns, I like obtaining guns, and I like swapping guns. Once in awhile I'll sell a gun from my collection for money, to a pawnbroker or gun store. In my opinion, enforcement action against unlicensed dealing, and abuse of C&R licenses, has been incredibly lax for over a decade. Where you stand on this issue depends to some extent on where you sit. However, facts are facts, and enforcement action has long been overdue. Most "violators" are not "powderhorns" selling guns to bangers, if I had to guess. If I had to guess, I'd guess that most "violators" are ordinary folks who tend to brush off legal concerns as "lawyer speak" and don't see any harm in buying and selling guns for profit without a license. I am not among them.

sernv99
February 24, 2009, 08:44 AM
oh my bad, I didn't know JPFO was the mouthpiece for all gun right organizations and whatever they post is what gun owners should believe.:rolleyes:

you ever heard of Curveball and the Iraq war?? If not, read up on it because what you have is a "Curveball".

chuckusaret
February 24, 2009, 08:49 AM
It is no different than buying and selling cars in Florida. Florida law states that any person, firm partnership, or corporation that buys, sells, offers for sale, displays for sale or deals in three or more motor vehicles in any 12-month period is presumed to be a motor vehicle dealer and must have an appropriate license issued by the State.

If you are not a dealer, then you must provide proof as to why you transfered so many vehicles.

The Dept of Motor Vehicles report the title xfers same as the FFL reports the gun xfers.

I received a letter from them because of large ammo buys----I bought for a group of shooters in an effort to save a buck or two. Was no big hassle by them, just a question that I answered and that was it.....Hopefully.

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 08:57 AM
oh my bad, I didn't know JPFO was the mouthpiece for all gun right organizations and whatever they post is what gun owners should believe.

Post when you have actually seen the video.
You clearly have not.



Is this the new THR debating strategy? I've seen it several times this week.

People post asking for evidence since they are convinced such evidence doesn't exist, then when they learn that it DOES exist they start to try to discredit it without even looking at it.

That's not a very useful strategy I have to say..... If you take time to look at and understand the evidence and have an argument about why it's wrong, that's good debating. Immediately going to the "well that can't be right" tact without even looking into it makes you seem, let's say, "not high road".

FM12
February 24, 2009, 09:05 AM
Yeah, go ahead and get a lawyer, that'll show you have nothing to hide.

2ndAmFan
February 24, 2009, 09:13 AM
Enforcement has been very lax for years, and according to several sources I read at the time, the Clinton administration specifically ordered BATF to lighten up on enforcement in order to justify enacting more restrictive gun ownership laws. I have no idea if that's true, and I don't want to believe it because the implications are way beyond frightening.
Straw purchasers in the US are supplying guns to drug cartels in Mexico, and with all the violence down there a lot of federal attention is being focused on gun purchasers in the Southwestern US, and probably elsewhere as well. I suspect you were flagged to be investigated because you buy a lot of guns and they want to make sure you aren't selling them to people who can't legally obtain them. I think the fact you always go through a licensed dealer should put you in the clear.

esquare
February 24, 2009, 09:26 AM
It is no different than buying and selling cars in Florida. Florida law states that any person, firm partnership, or corporation that buys, sells, offers for sale, displays for sale or deals in three or more motor vehicles in any 12-month period is presumed to be a motor vehicle dealer and must have an appropriate license issued by the State.

What what are the BATFE limits on gun transfers per year? Or, is it based on if you make a profit? The reason I'm asking is because it seems that if you sell anything right now, you'll fetch more than what you paid for if you bought it a few years ago. I also remember a post of a guy selling off most of his life's collection over a couple of weeks - is that illegal, and if so, why should it be?

Duke of Doubt
February 24, 2009, 09:31 AM
esquare: "What what are the BATFE limits on gun transfers per year? Or, is it based on if you make a profit? The reason I'm asking is because it seems that if you sell anything right now, you'll fetch more than what you paid for if you bought it a few years ago. I also remember a post of a guy selling off most of his life's collection over a couple of weeks - is that illegal, and if so, why should it be?"

It's a subjective test, and most good lawyers hate those, but regularly have to address them in court. Things like presumed intent, and all that. Disposing of a collection generally isn't a problem, but if you've followed some of my posts in recent weeks, you'll notice that rather than SELL a bunch of appreciated autoloading firearms in recent months for a tidy cash profit, generally I've TRADED them for valuable but un-appreciated guns in which I've become interested. Less likely to be construed as dealing.

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 09:36 AM
Yeah, go ahead and get a lawyer, that'll show you have nothing to hide.

If you are not 100% certain in ANYTHING you do, talking to an attorney is never a bad thing.

Just talking to an attorney is hardly an admission of guilt. These day's you're taking a risk by just making it up as you go.

What's the harm in spending 30 minutes with a lawyer to make sure you are covered before you talk to an LE agency?
You don't have to walk through the front door of ATF's office with 9 guys in suits.......

bannockburn
February 24, 2009, 09:51 AM
Texas Rifleman

I would most definitely agree. A brief advisory consult with an attorney (hopefully versed in these matters), would be my first move. The visit should be free. If you decide to go this route, be prepared to ante up your attorney's retainer fee. At $200 to $250 an hour, it's certainly not cheap, but I would rather spend the money up front than trying to get hold of my attorney if things go south in a hurry (no pun intended to our southern neighbors).

waterhouse
February 24, 2009, 09:59 AM
How would they know unless you bought multiple handguns within a two weak period?

Perhaps they went to check check the dealer's records. Many dealers store the 4473s alphabetically. When you flip through the files and a guy has 20 or 30 4473s in a row, they might question that.

A stranger could pick out my top 10 customers (by volume) in less than an hour just by flipping through the filing cabinet.

LaEscopeta
February 24, 2009, 10:09 AM
I won't give the OP specific advice on this thread…Neither will I.

…probably looking to see if you are running a firearms business without an FFL……probably want to make sure your not straw purchasing guns.I don’t know but I’m guessing it is one of those 2 probabilities.

Think they would have better things to do than harrass a law abiding citizen.Well, they may or may not have better things to do, but I’m pretty sure they don’t know if you are a law abiding citizen or not. Yet.

As stated above, there are several different things that could be going on. One is they have their knickers in a twist and are looking to harass and entrap you. Another possibility is they are running down a lead. Law enforcement gets lots of leads for lots of different sources, and they spend a lot of their time checking them out. The vast majority of leads come up dry and law enforcement is used to this. But they have to run down all the leads to find out which ones have criminals at the end of them.

Please keep us posted as to the outcome.

kirkcdl
February 24, 2009, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Think they would have better things to do than harrass a law abiding citizen.

More likely they are wanting to verify that you ARE a law abiding citizen,nothing more...

Guitargod1985
February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
Yeah, go ahead and get a lawyer, that'll show you have nothing to hide.


So, consulting with legal counsel constitutes an admission of guilt in your eyes? I didn't see that in my copy of the Bill of Rights. Can you point it out for me?

If speaking with an attorney means you have something to hide then carrying a gun must mean you are looking for trouble, huh?
:rolleyes:

Sixtigers
February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
Maybe I'm not following the thread as closely as I should, but did I read that you bought two pistols, a Ruger MkII and a Smith and Wesson, then sold the Smith two weeks later? Unless you're purposely buying guns for the purpose of reselling them, why would you do that?

I don't make that much, so it usually takes me a bit before I get enough scratch to purchase guns I've been jonesing for...I certainly don't sell 'em two weeks later! In fact, in the few cases I have sold weapons, I usually end up regretting it...I miss 'em!

I may not have understood the post...and it isn't any of my business why and how you buy your weapons, but maybe that's what they're looking at?

(I could see why an individual would buy and then immediately sell a purchased weapon: bad day at the range, gun doesn't "feel" right, weapon not perfect for the use intended, etc...)

sernv99
February 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
"Is this the new THR debating strategy? I've seen it several times this week.

People post asking for evidence since they are convinced such evidence doesn't exist, then when they learn that it DOES exist they start to try to discredit it without even looking at it.

That's not a very useful strategy I have to say..... If you take time to look at and understand the evidence and have an argument about why it's wrong, that's good debating. Immediately going to the "well that can't be right" tact without even looking into it makes you seem, let's say, "not high road"."

maybe you previously worked for the Bush administration and was one that advocated for the invasion of Iraq based solely on one source that hasn't ever been vetted. As I said before, do research on Curveball. I hope you don't plan to be a lawyer, defense attorney or prosecutor, you will never win with your debate "tactics".

JWF III
February 24, 2009, 11:58 AM
but did I read that you bought two pistols, a Ruger MkII and a Smith and Wesson, then sold the Smith two weeks later?

I think he meant that he bought the two guns in a two week period of time. And though he still owns the Ruger, he has since sold the Smith. Not that he sold the Smith 2 weeks after buying it.

Either way, get a good (gun law) lawyer. If Sixtigers is right, and I'm wrong, get a great criminal defense lawyer, you'll possibly need it.

Wyman

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 12:15 PM
maybe you previously worked for the Bush administration and was one that advocated for the invasion of Iraq based solely on one source that hasn't ever been vetted.

You got me, I'm Karl Rove. What that has to do with this issue is beyond me but yes, I am Karl Rove.

Buy my book.

Prince Yamato
February 24, 2009, 12:19 PM
Just go to talk to them and ask what all the hubbub is about. Did you buy any used guns? Maybe one of them was reported stolen and they want to inform you. You'll never know until you ask. It's probably no big deal.

Ben86
February 24, 2009, 01:07 PM
I think you should contact them and most likely put your mind at ease. It also makes you look less guilty of whatever they may be suspecting. And it will let you know if you do need to hire a lawyer.

To quote a friend of mine: "The BATFE agents love guns, they just don't want you to have them."

MisterMike
February 24, 2009, 01:45 PM
Yeah, go ahead and get a lawyer, that'll show you have nothing to hide.

Just go to talk to them and ask what all the hubbub is about.

I think you should contact them and most likely put your mind at ease.

With all due respect to those who shared these comments, I would urge that you contact a lawyer.

Liddyfan
February 24, 2009, 01:50 PM
SERVN99


you shouldn't make assumptions without knowing all the facts. Conspiracy theorists abound around here.


No need to be nervous without cause, right you are. Speaking for myself, I don't disparage fellow citizens that are rightly nervous about the growing hostility to everything related to firearms- I try to help in what little way I can.

I know about the BATF and what they did in Texas, the infrared film exposed that they lied about the actions there - I know this for a scientific fact- first hand.

Jim K
February 24, 2009, 02:23 PM
Good general rule: Happenings that are revealed as real, true, absolute, proven, scientific fact usually aren't.

On the main subject, I have a gun buying problem. I hunt for oddwads and old guns, and often find two or three at the same dealer at the same time. The result is that I have been reported several times for mulitple purchases. Nothing has ever come of it, and I have not heard from BATFE.

I am sure a multiple sale of a Remington Model 51 and a Hopkins & Allen revolver doesn't excite interest like multiple purchases of AR-15's, so maybe they pay more attention to some reports than others.

Jim

MAKster
February 24, 2009, 03:27 PM
You said you have been buying 2 or 3 guns per month. How many of those did you resell? If you only kept a few, the ATF might accuse you of being an unlicensed dealer. On the other hand, if all of these guns are still in your safe than you are fine.

hounder
February 24, 2009, 04:14 PM
I stopped one time to have a Fish cop see if I was on his list to run problem Bears and Cat's, I did not have license with me, so he punched me up by name and addy, the laptop in his rig listed me and a list of the firearms I have bought over the years! He made the remark that I had a few guns. I remember reading somewhere that congress had told the BATF that there is no reason for them to keep us in their system after we are cleared. I believe it is 3 days they keep us in their computer before they delete our info, the reason being it gives the states time to obtain our info and keep a record of our purchases, so they can get around the Law. Does anyone else have a take on this? Just my .02 ..........hounder

waterhouse
February 24, 2009, 04:23 PM
so he punched me up by name and addy, the laptop in his rig listed me and a list of the firearms I have bought over the years!

What state do you live in?

I know for a fact that on a federal level the make and model of the firearm are never entered into the system when background checks are done.

The only two ways this information could be collected on a federal level:
1) Multiple handgun purchase forms
2) Physical visits to your dealer to view 4473s/bound books.

I believe it is 3 days they keep us in their computer before they delete our info, the reason being it gives the states time to obtain our info and keep a record of our purchases, so they can get around the Law. Does anyone else have a take on this?

State level databases may contain whatever information your state collects, but once again, they don't get it from the Feds, because the Feds don't have it. Dealers submit your name, DOB, race, and a few other physical descriptors. The only information about the firearm is "long gun" or "handgun."

If you are concerned about your state collecting data about the make, model, and serial number of your firearm, you can contact your state level elected officials.

si vis pacem
February 24, 2009, 04:32 PM
I highly recommend at least meeting with an attorney who's worth his salt regarding federal firearms law.

Pilot
February 24, 2009, 04:35 PM
More likely they are wanting to verify that you ARE a law abiding citizen,nothing more...


Isn't that what the background check done by every gun store prior to the purchase is for? NICS or whatever they use in his state.

mbt2001
February 24, 2009, 04:48 PM
My wife is having visions of swat teams crashing down the doors and is really upset. Think they would have better things to do than harrass a law abiding citizen. Think I'll ask them if they are hiring......

They haven't done anything yet, so saying that they are harassing you is a bit much.

That being said, contact your lawyer and if they do call on you, then tell them you would rather interview with your lawyer present and can you schedule a time. Be polite. Do not let them search anything, look at anything. Your lawyer will advise from there.

I hope for your sake though, that you are not a straw buyer or selling lots of guns without an FFL... That would be sucky.

Edit:

Yeah, go ahead and get a lawyer, that'll show you have nothing to hide.

Errrrr...

That is a line cops use to get you to do something against your better judgment. For example, even if they look and find nothing that doesn't eliminate you as a suspect. If you do not let them look, that doesn't confirm you as a suspect either. So you might as well make exercise your right to ensure that you continue to enjoy them.

Talking to the police cannot help you. It can, however, hurt you.

Eyesac
February 24, 2009, 05:25 PM
You got me, I'm Karl Rove. What that has to do with this issue is beyond me but yes, I am Karl Rove.

Buy my book.

lol

I don't really care, and haven't looked at the videos, but I've personally been told by some detectives (when I was a child) that they had my fingerprints at some crime scene, and they would arrest me. By that I mean small town cops in the 80's were lying to try to get me to incriminate myself, why wouldn't federal agencies?

rogertc1
February 24, 2009, 05:27 PM
I have been buying on an average 3 firearms a month for the last 3 years. I have never had a visit or call however I still have every gun I bought too.

Liddyfan
February 24, 2009, 05:31 PM
Good general rule: Happenings that are revealed as real, true, absolute, proven, scientific fact usually aren't.

The ol' man is a world class physicist that spent his whole adult life in infrared/countermeasures business and he was asked to examined those tapes from Texas.


HE DISAGREES WITH YOU, scientific facts DO exist.

rcmodel
February 24, 2009, 05:32 PM
BATF wants to talk to meLike Nicolis Cage said, "I bet it isn't about the Alcohol & Tobacco".

rc

bensdad
February 24, 2009, 05:46 PM
Like Nicolis Cage said, "I bet it isn't about the Alcohol & Tobacco".

:D


Wait for it. Maybe the sales guy is just blowing smoke up your... maybe he's just full of bologna.

sig220mw
February 24, 2009, 06:44 PM
sernv99

Do a little research and you'll find texasrifleman is quite right. The batf does not have a good record when dealing with citizen gun owners. Why do you think the NRA has gone to court so many times to defend gun owners. As far as being exposed by the media for a training film. PLEASE !!!!!! Do you really expect the media to harrass a government organization that is run by administrators that have the same point of view as they. Yeah and they love President Bush too that's why they have showered him with so much adoration for 8 long years. Clinton and Obama both could abuse homeless people on the White House lawn and the media would blame the homeless people for being there in the first place. You sound either very young or very naive.

cassandrasdaddy
February 24, 2009, 06:50 PM
I know about the BATF and what they did in Texas, the infrared film exposed that they lied about the actions there - I know this for a scientific fact- first hand

911 was an inside job!


what definition of "first hand" are you using? apparently there is a new one

sernv99
February 24, 2009, 06:56 PM
here we go, Sig220mw is another conspiracy theorist, you probably believe those stories about the CIA selling crack in the 'hood to finance the Contras back in the 1980's LOL please enlighten me with some more of your conspiracy theories. It's always fun to hear folks who NEVER worked for the feds, talk about what really goes on inside these agencies.

sernv99
February 24, 2009, 07:05 PM
"...I've personally been told by some detectives (when I was a child) that they had my fingerprints at some crime scene, and they would arrest me. By that I mean small town cops in the 80's were lying to try to get me to incriminate myself, why wouldn't federal agencies?"


You have the right to remain silent, if they scare you into admitting something that you didn't do, well that's on you. Sorry, I don't see how that's the cops fault. Maybe you think cops are like in the TV show, Leave It To Beaver LOL...well I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you didnt tell us the whole story surrounding your circumstances so who knows why they were interrogating you.

Eagles6
February 24, 2009, 07:06 PM
Hounder,
As far as I know the instant check info is supposed to be destroyed after 3 days. On the one hand I don't trust 'em, especially now.
And on the other hand PA state police have been keeping an illegal database of firearms purchases for years, the only place they could get that info is from the instantcheck database.

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 07:10 PM
It's always fun to hear folks who NEVER worked for the feds, talk about what really goes on inside these agencies.

Interesting that you say that, in that the video tape you claim is incorrect/conspiracy/fake/whatever has an interview with someone who DID spend 20 years working for the ATF.

In addition there has been testimony before Congress of abuses by the ATF. Guess those were fake too?

You won't take one guy's word because he DIDN'T work for the feds, and you won't take anothers because he DID.

Fascinating.

sernv99
February 24, 2009, 07:23 PM
interesting, maybe your buddies at Fox News should air these stories about the corrupt ATF more often, because you know there do exist right wing leaning media outlets besides the progun ones,...dang, I don't recall Rush Limbaugh airing anything about corrupt ATF :eek:

somoss
February 24, 2009, 07:31 PM
About 5 years ago i tried to buy a 85 year old mauser from samco in florida, even though I had my C&R I had to find a dealer there to ship to a dealer in my home state (long story, but if you know samco none of this is a surprise). three months later I was visited by them. they asked me what guns i owned, some normal questions like where i worked, what i did and then asked for some id. eventhough they were at my house they wanted to make sure i was the one they were looking for. all normal until they asked if i had any intentions of shooting into a crowd. The interview took less than 2 hours. one of the agents kept getting up to walk around while one asked me questions.
i asked why i was visited and i was told someone called them and said i was talking of shooting people and such.
at the time i worked in a retail setting and never (never) discussed my hobby with anyone or many other places. they left, went to my parents house to confirm my answers. my dad told them to go to hell. they also called my work to confirm that i worked there.
i never heard from them again. i dont know who called them or the real reason but it was a very unpleasnt experience. it made me feel less American.

TexasRifleman
February 24, 2009, 08:35 PM
interesting, maybe your buddies at Fox News should air these stories about the corrupt ATF more often, because you know there do exist right wing leaning media outlets besides the progun ones,...dang, I don't recall Rush Limbaugh airing anything about corrupt ATF

Seriously man, you're starting to sound a little off, that's already happened.

Examples? OK. Though you will probably claim that Orin Hatch really wasn't in Congress or something.....

http://www.atfabuse.com/senate1995.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_52/ai_n16498994

http://www.jpfo.org/alerts/alert20051028.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,983197-2,00.html


I'm not sure what to tell you at this point. There are tons of representatives and senators, lawyers and reporters, gun owners and cops that have testified, documented, video taped, tape recorded, etc abuses by the ATF for years now. 10 minutes on Google will get you hundreds of complaint letters, press reports, Congressional testimony, etc.

Congress even held hearings on it.

I just don't know what you are thinking denying these stories exist.

As I said before, you want to argue that they are wrong, exaggerated, etc that's fine but here you sit claiming people never even spoke up about it?

You are just flat wrong as can be on that and frankly you sound pretty silly with the constant "right wing conspiracy" stuff you are posting.

Jim K
February 24, 2009, 08:46 PM
In some states, like MD, handgun and "assault rifle" purchases have to go through the state police, who also do the NICS check. The Feds don't get any gun information other than rifle, shotgun, handgun, but the state cops keep records on everything, and can call up the list any time.

Jim

Liddyfan
February 24, 2009, 10:12 PM
cassandrasdaddy I know about the BATF and what they did in Texas, the infrared film exposed that they lied about the actions there - I know this for a scientific fact- first hand

911 was an inside job!


what definition of "first hand" are you using? apparently there is a new one

"911 was an inside job!"

What does that mean? Is that wise@ss remark or....?

what definition of "first hand" are you using? apparently there is a new one

The video tapes of the Texas seige were reviewed by a fire expert hired by the Federal Gov. After his review of the tapes and his conclusion that the fire was not the fault of the government - the gov. released the video tapes believing they were free and clear. However, the fire expert was not a thermal imaging expert- whoops. Gunfire has a thermal fingerprint and in this case, the rate of fire was significant. Not only was there gunfire ( and lots of it) but there was a particular weapon used. This weapon was found by working backwards.

The fire was started by a flash-bang device launched from a Mark 19.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you don't have to.

sig220mw
February 24, 2009, 10:25 PM
Again you display your "youth" and inexperience. In the past Rush has indeed spoken of the batf and their abuses as have others in the goverment. Oh and by the way, you are the conspiracy theorist I and others have only stated what indeed has happened and you can call the NRA yourself to find out about some of it. As far as the conspiracy business goes the majority of people in the media don't conspire, they just for the most part (NOT ALL) have the same point of view and or reference. Anyone that can't admit the bias in the media against gun owners just plain doesn't want to see it. As of late a few of the network types have admitted their bias. But of course this goes largely unreported and others in the media then loudly deny it when some are honest about it. Their bias is not just on the subject of firearms ownership. You just plain don't know what you are talking about and I believe you know it.

RP88
February 24, 2009, 11:44 PM
well, if everything you've done goes through a dealer, then chances are they've already looked at the paperwork and have deduced you as not running a black market business or anything like that. they may not even call you at all.

bonedust
February 25, 2009, 12:56 AM
the only real way the ATF would come knocking of a civilians door is if someone called you in. every office runs a tad different (which is a small part of the bigger problem) but its my understanding they dont just knock on doors.

Gibbles
February 25, 2009, 01:11 AM
I call bs.

You would just go into a research while trying to buy another gun at most.

sernv99
February 25, 2009, 05:56 AM
texasrifleman: those articles are from 1995 :what: in addition to some article by a pro-gun magazine...well of course they are going to rail against the ATF, what else do you think pro-gun outlets do? Are you really going to use evidence provided by a gun magazine? And you cite articles from over 10 years ago? :rolleyes: By the way, most of the personnel in ATF during 1995, when those articles were printed, have been there way before Clinton got elected, and do I dare say, they were hired during the Reagan and Bush Sr. years?:eek: uh oh, that doesn't add up, how did the ATF morph into a bad agency during the terms of pro-gun presidents:what: geez, I bet if you sit down and think about that, it will make your head explode, huh:what:

I'm waiting for you to cite the Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents, those are favorite pastime memories of conspiracy theorists like yourself. At least you are doing better than Sig220mw, he doesn't even come up with a good argument, just name calling :rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
February 25, 2009, 07:47 AM
uh oh, that doesn't add up, how did the ATF morph into a bad agency during the terms of pro-gun presidents

You are the one that keeps bringing politics into this, I never did.
I'm not sure why you think that matters, but since you keep bringing it up it shows your true agenda.

I simply stated that these things had happened, which you denied.

You've now been proven wrong and all you can say about it is "well that was 10 years ago".

And you are the one hung up on conspiracies, all I did was state the facts, as they are documented in testimony before Congress.

You should just exit the thread now, you've provided no reasonable input at all and you've steadily tried to turn this political, which is not allowed here.

Deanimator
February 25, 2009, 07:54 AM
interesting, maybe your buddies at Fox News should air these stories about the corrupt ATF more often
If the "How to commit perjury" video never existed, why in Congressional hearings did the then BATF (I REFUSE to call them "ATF". It's NOT their name.) not deny its existence (hard to do when it was shown) but instead try to characterize it as a "misunderstanding"?

I suspect that your objection to the JPFO as a source has more to do with their name than the facts of the case.

Deanimator
February 25, 2009, 08:01 AM
how did the ATF morph into a bad agency during the terms of pro-gun presidents
The BATF(E) was a bad agency the day it was established. It's a bad agency now. It's no more "morphed" than a carp "morphs" into a fish.

Tell everyone about the suit by the Black BATF agents against the agency. Tell everyone the outcome. Tell everyone what was posted in the BATF offices in the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

But then you may very well approve of racially segregated functions organized in the offices of a government agency by serving government employees, using government resources, with the invitations going out on agency (BATF) letterhead.

A number of BATF agents were pulled from the Clinton era church arson investigations. Tell everyone WHY.

BCCL
February 25, 2009, 08:12 AM
Since it is a federal regulatory agency, can BATF just call up and ask to do a "home inspection" of a private citizen that does not hold any class of federal regulated license?

I thought they were only to oversee federally licensed dealers and interstate commerce.

TexasRifleman
February 25, 2009, 08:15 AM
Since it is a federal regulatory agency, can BATF just call up and ask to do a "home inspection" of a private citizen that does not hold any class of federal regulated license?


The ATF has not actually called the OP, let's all keep that in mind. All he said was his local dealer mentioned that the ATF was interested.

As far as he has posted here he has yet to be actually contacted by ATF.

But yes, ATF can call up and ASK for an inspection. You certainly don't have to give it to them. But, if they seek a warrant they will likely get it.

Which is why the recommendation to talk to a lawyer if the ATF ever actually contacts you about something like this.

ATF is classified as a federal law enforcement agency as well as a regulatory agency so right or wrong conducting investigations like this is within their charter.

chuckusaret
February 25, 2009, 08:21 AM
I have had one encounter with the ATF--The agent was very polite and most of all understanding. He stated up front that I did not have to answer any of his questions or continue the conversation with him without an attorney. He then stated why he was investigating my actions. Large ammo buys. I elected to answer his questions, he thanked me for being open with him, he left and never heard from him again other than a short letter stating there were no violations of the law by me.

BCCL
February 25, 2009, 08:22 AM
The ATF has not actually called the OP, let's all keep that in mind. All he said was his local dealer mentioned that the ATF was interested.

As far as he has posted here he has yet to be actually contacted by ATF.

Sorry, I wasn't more clear, I was talking in general.

logical
February 25, 2009, 08:25 AM
They/she probably won't even ever call. It may have just been an off-hand "maybe I should talk to this guy" comment. You said the agent was pretty young...did you mean "relatively young" or "pretty & young"?

TexasRifleman
February 25, 2009, 08:39 AM
Sorry, I wasn't more clear, I was talking in general.

Oh I know, I wasn't saying "you" specifically just "all of us". Sorry for the confusion.


They/she probably won't even ever call. It may have just been an off-hand "maybe I should talk to this guy" comment.

That's my bet too. And since the OP hasn't been back in a couple of days that's sounding more and more likely.

CajunBass
February 25, 2009, 08:50 AM
I'd be more inclined to believe your dealer was pulling your leg, than that the BATFE gave a hoot about your gun purchases.

BlackHand1917
February 25, 2009, 08:54 AM
My strategy would be to adopt a wait and see attitude. If BATF calls politely tell them you would prefer to talk to them in the presence of your attorney.

sernv99
February 25, 2009, 09:06 AM
"The BATF(E) was a bad agency the day it was established. It's a bad agency now. It's no more "morphed" than a carp "morphs" into a fish."

wow, so that big undercover sting they did to take down parts of the Mongols biker club, who were involved in a number of felony offenses, must be a bad thing then. Wow, amazing:rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
February 25, 2009, 09:09 AM
so that big undercover sting they did to take down parts of the Mongols biker club,

You mean the one where they used over 1,500 agents and only took 89 firearms?

That the one you mean?

Model of government efficiency that one..... not really a model of the best use of resources.

No question they were bad dudes but really, that's the best use of ATF you can find?

leadcounsel
February 25, 2009, 09:13 AM
Despite their "policy" or any laws against keeping the make, model and serial of a gun you purchase, I firmly believe that all of the guns you buy through a dealer are in a database someplace.

Even if they aren't there is a papertrail and I suppose you could also be contacted if one of the guns you bought ended up used in a crime or was found on a criminal-type or in a raid or something.

At any rate, if the BATF calls, tell them you'd like a lawyer present and then retain a lawyer competant in Fed gun laws.

TexasRedneck
February 25, 2009, 09:16 AM
I'd be inclined to ask them what they're specifically interested in. I can end the interview at any point. Most of the time, they're simply looking to find out why certain things have been done, and with most of us, that's going to be easily explained.
Should we have to explain? Well, let's look at it like a traffic stop, in which the officer asks certain questions. You generally don't have to answer them - but now you'll have created something for which there was no need. A lot of times they might be looking to find out why you're in a particular area when you don't live/work around there. It helps them to know what's going on - and if they were doing it in OUR area, we'd appreciate their diligence.
Now....do I trust BATF? Not as a "blanket statement", no. Because like any other agency/group, a few cowboys can make it run amuck, which is what I view them during the time of Waco (where, at the time of the "raid", the violations the BATF cited were violations of STATE, not Federal law - and they therefore had no enforcement authority) and Ruby Ridge.
Everyone is human - and if you get a cowboy that is considered to be "good", he can go off the deep end. Problem being, a good, dedicated and imaginative agent looks a lot like the cowboy - and he may NEVER consider going beyond his range.
So, yeah - I'll speak with them within limits without concern within certain boundaries. Beyond there, I'll politely tell them I intend to end the interview until such time as I have my attorney present. The BATF agents I've encountered in recent years are far more open-minded and reasonable (within their boundaries) than what I've seen in the past, IMO.

Carl N. Brown
February 25, 2009, 09:19 AM
well of course they are going to rail against the ATF, what else do you think pro-gun outlets do

OK, one of the former assistant directors of the ATF, Sanders, on retirement became a lawyer representing gun owners unfairly targeted by BATF and has testfied before Congress on ATF abuses.

Reporter Alan Bock for the libertarian magazine Reason wrote in his book "Ambush at Ruby Ridge" (Dickson, 1995) that he met a retired ATF agent at the Ruby Creek Vigil who told him he became an anti-ATF crusader after witnessing abuses by ATF agents.

The US Attorney in charge of the Knoxville TN USAO advised Assitant US Attorneys not to attend the ATF Good O'Boys Roundup if they valued their reputations (years before the Gadsden AL Minutemen exposed the GOB).

Former ATF assistant director, former ATF agent, US Attorney, yep, the usual pro-gun outlets unfairly criticizing the ATF.

Officers'Wife
February 25, 2009, 11:09 AM
Be co-operative and answer their questions, if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide. After all, they are only doing their jobs protecting you.

Deanimator
February 25, 2009, 12:26 PM
wow, so that big undercover sting they did to take down parts of the Mongols biker club, who were involved in a number of felony offenses, must be a bad thing then. Wow, amazing
So what you're saying is that if Jeffrey Dahmer had murdered Wayne Williams, he'd have been a good guy?

Deanimator
February 25, 2009, 12:30 PM
wow, so that big undercover sting they did to take down parts of the Mongols biker club, who were involved in a number of felony offenses, must be a bad thing then. Wow, amazing
Oh yeah, I noticed you omitted the BATF(E)'s documented [long] history of organized racist activity. Is that for the same reason that you don't accept JPFO as a source, even when completely DOCUMENTED?

Deanimator
February 25, 2009, 12:31 PM
if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide
Yeah, look how well that worked for the Duke lacrosse team...

Officers'Wife
February 25, 2009, 01:13 PM
Yeah, look how well that worked for the Duke lacrosse team...

If you pick on the sarcasm, it will never heal.

Deanimator
February 25, 2009, 01:20 PM
If you pick on the sarcasm, it will never heal.
Ambiguity can be so... ambivalent...

TexasRedneck
February 25, 2009, 01:30 PM
If you pick on the sarcasm, it will never heal.

Frankly, I think it was a valid point. Calling it sarcasm doesn't address the point.

FWIW, the legal system ultimately proved the "case" to be bogus. The "system" even went so far as to oust the DA responsible for the over-exhuberant prosecution.

Lady Justice can be slow, but she usually will prevail.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 25, 2009, 02:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

Read, listen, understand, follow. Get a lawyer.

Kentucky
February 25, 2009, 04:27 PM
sernv99 = TROLL

TexasRifleman has totally owned him in this thread.

RoadkingLarry
February 25, 2009, 04:33 PM
FWIW, the legal system ultimately proved the "case" to be bogus. The "system" even went so far as to oust the DA responsible for the over-exhuberant prosecution

Only because the families were well heeled and could afford high powered law dogs. Had it been a group of people of lesser means then they would now be rotting in jail.

TexasRedneck
February 25, 2009, 04:37 PM
Really? How can you say that w/certainty? It became pretty obvious as the case developed that there were huge flaws in it. I think even a blind Public Defender could've worked that one out.

Officers'Wife
February 25, 2009, 04:39 PM
Ambiguity can be so... ambivalent...

Sorry, I've been accused of 'cop bashing' so much I simply rested on that reputation. I'll attempt to be more clear in the future.

Officers'Wife
February 25, 2009, 04:44 PM
FWIW, the legal system ultimately proved the "case" to be bogus. The "system" even went so far as to oust the DA responsible for the over-exhuberant prosecution.

Lady Justice can be slow, but she usually will prevail.

Indeed? The rumor is the Ruby Ridge snipers eventually received a commendation for their acts. Going back even further, the FBI witness tampering at the Pine Ridge and Rosebud Reservations were buried by the Carter administration. Justice seems to follow the convenience of the times.

Cyborg
February 25, 2009, 05:46 PM
Be co-operative and answer their questions, if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide. After all, they are only doing their jobs protecting you.
With all respect to you and your husband (whether he is LEO or Armed Forces) that may well be the most naieve statement I have ever read. I would never voluntarily answer questions by any law enforcement officer at any level from local to Federal. I would rather spend the night in county lockup than risk something I said being taken out of context and used against me. As for trusting the BATF, I don't know about you but I can spell "Ruby Ridge". Regarding trusting any federal LEO agent, I can also spell "Waco" and "Elian Gonzalez". As surely as night follows day, when power is not accompanied by constraints then abuse of that power is inevitable. The ATF is not the only culprit in that respect, either. The IRS is an excellent example of unconstrained power.

But if you really want my opinion on the BATF and other federal agencies, follow this link: http://www.resistnet.com/profiles/blogs/jackboots-lyric

Nuff said.

Cyborg

TexasRedneck
February 25, 2009, 05:55 PM
Indeed? The rumor is the Ruby Ridge snipers eventually received a commendation for their acts. Going back even further, the FBI witness tampering at the Pine Ridge and Rosebud Reservations were buried by the Carter administration. Justice seems to follow the convenience of the times.


Sorry - but you're quoting my response to the comments re. the Duke Lacrosse team.

Do I blindly trust? Hell no - please see other comments I've posted w/regards to the BATF's actions both at Ruby Ridge and Waco. David Koresh was probably nuttier'n a fruitcake, but the laws he was ACCUSED of breaking were STATE laws, not Federal. Unfortunately, the gutless wonder governor we had at the time didn't have the cajones to send in the Texas Rangers to escort the Feds away, and take care of our own business.

sernv99
February 25, 2009, 06:48 PM
"You mean the one where they used over 1,500 agents and only took 89 firearms?

That the one you mean?"

texasrifleman, you obviously never worked in LE or were never part of any LE/military operation, never taken part in the planning, and probably watch too much CSI thinking in one hour, with 4 people, an entire criminal enterprise/"bad guy ring" can be taken down LOL Turn the TV off and get a reality check. Let me guess, you think all LE investigations should be like the TV cop shows huh? What a sad state of mind you have.

"Oh yeah, I noticed you omitted the BATF(E)'s documented [long] history of organized racist activity. Is that for the same reason that you don't accept JPFO as a source, even when completely DOCUMENTED?"

Deanimator, shhh, lemme tell ya a secret. go read about those two knucklehead neo-nazis planning to assassinate Obama before the election.......guess what agency was the primary pointman on taking down those neo-Nazi peckerwoods. I'll give ya a hint, it's the same agency you hate in this very thread....I guess that makes the ATF an oxymoron agency, they engaged in racist activities but they took down some bonehead neo-Nazis planning to kill Obama....mmmm, dang, time for you to come up with a new argument, looks like you can't use the racism thing anymore:eek:

sernv99
February 25, 2009, 06:55 PM
"The rumor is the Ruby Ridge snipers eventually received a commendation for their acts."

why would anyone defend a member of the Aryan Nations, you do know that good ole' Randy boy subscribes to their teachings and ideology, right?

hoji
February 25, 2009, 07:05 PM
Hide your dog, better yet, get him a vest:what:

Deanimator
February 25, 2009, 07:09 PM
Deanimator, shhh, lemme tell ya a secret. go read about those two knucklehead neo-nazis planning to assassinate Obama before the election.......guess what agency was the primary pointman on taking down those neo-Nazi peckerwoods. I'll give ya a hint, it's the same agency you hate in this very thread....I guess that makes the ATF an oxymoron agency, they engaged in racist activities but they took down some bonehead neo-Nazis planning to kill Obama....mmmm, dang, time for you to come up with a new argument, looks like you can't use the racism thing anymore
Guess what agency was the primary pointman in organizing racially segregated gatherings at which racist literature, some of it calling for violence against Black political figures, was distributed?

Guess what agency allowed it's employees to post in the office "licenses" for the "hunting" of Black people. Actually, those "licenses" didn't say "Black people"? They used a different word, I'm sure that's both well known and approved of by you.

Guess what agency was sued by its own Black employees for racial discrimination and harassment?

I guess it's ok for Federal agents to engage in White supremacist activity so long as they suppress their private sector competitors in the White supremacist movement.

Interesting isn't it, that you both excuse organized White supremacist activity within a Federal agency AND dismiss out of hand documented evidence of institutional perjury within that same agency SOLELY because that evidence was publicized by a group named JEWS for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership?

You remind me of the elderly anti-gunner working as a cleaner in a MacDonalds who berated me for wearing an NRA ballcap. When he called for banning of guns, I noted that the last time that happened, we seem to have misplaced 6,000,000 Jews somewhere. He replied that he didn't see as how that was such a bad thing.

Facts aren't your friends.

rbernie
February 25, 2009, 07:43 PM
Too much drift.

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