[Dilettante]

Has any gun ever been designed from the start for women to use?

I used to do a lot of bicycling. A lot of companies had womens' models that were not only smaller (there were small sized for men too) but were designed a little differently to fit a woman's body.

I know there are "ladies' models" of various pistols; I don't know if the differences are cosmetic or substantive. (Dude, let's paint the handle pink!)

But mostly I'm thinking of a larger gun, like a carbine or shotgun. Could it make a difference ladies? What would you change?

[tiberius]

Ask Tamara, she's always bragging about the latest dainty "ladies" gun she's picked up. :D


Seriously, S&W's "Ladysmith" line was an outstanding propostion IMHO. They were all serious guns of moderate size with very nice finishes and quality actions. They were all based on existing guns, however. I don't think anything has yet been designed from the ground up - nor do I think it needs to be. Women are generally smaller, but I can't think of anything other than ergonimcs that would make something a "ladies gun".

[ceetee]

Hmmmmmmmm..................... How 'bout the "Witness" series that comes in designer colors like pink, blue, yellow...



Maybe not...

[Dorian]

I think that the awnser would more or less be yes.

That's not because the pistol or gun was designed specifically for a woman, but because it wasn't designed specifically for a man.

I think when you start looking at smaller(compact) pistols is when you'll find pistols that would fit a woman's "small" hands.

Trust me, I know. I have small hands :)

If I had smaller hands I'd start looking at stuff like USP compact 9mm, Sig p239, p230, p232, etc etc....

[Destructo6]

Seems like the AR's grip was designed for women's hands. Add a 6-position stock and Bob's your uncle.

[Thumper]

I believe that old Mossberg .410 pump with the vertical foregrip was marketed specifically with womenfolk in mind.

In handguns, obviously Smith's "Ladysmith" series was designed for the fairer sex.

[RM]

Several shotguns are marketed for women. Browning Gold makes a Ladies 12 guage.

[seeker_two]

Guns for Chicks

I'm all for RKBA, but giving guns to poultry just seems wrong....:scrutiny:



(Don't forget American Derringer's "Lady Derringers"....:D )

[Delmar]

Other than the Ladysmiths, which I think the revolvers were done particularly tastefully, most of the rest were just different colors of the "male" models.

I have taught a few women how to shoot a handgun over the years. I would take them to a local range and we would rent what they thought was what they wanted, plus they would try my Government model Colt. The vast majority liked the way my 1911 shot and felt better than their choices. The few who did not like shooting at all, well, I just got too "busy" to spend much time with them.

Of the ones who liked to shoot, one of them bought a hi power and did pretty well with it. When I was dating my wife, she went out and bought an officers model on her own, and used to get really upset when a gun show proprieter would see her looking at their table and say something like, "aw, I got just the thing for the little lady" and pull out a chrome plated Raven with pink grips. Her response was priceless-what am I going to do with that? I shoot a 45 auto!

Good Girl!

[Tamara]

I love it when I'm carrying a revolver at the shop and some he-man customer asks "Whatcha got there, little lady, .38?" and I respond "No, a .44".

[Delmar]

Tamara-too bad you did not have a camera just for the look on his face. Talk about priceless:D

[mete]

The Ladysmith was in fact a marketing thing, minor changes to an existing gun, for the then new self defense for women movement. 50 years ago and more it was common to see in gun books the statement that women are very delicate and should not even attempt to shoot anything but a 22.I laugh at that when I think of the many women I have seen handling 45s and 44mags with ease. Part of the problem is all the jerks who tell women that the recoil is terrible and make them gunshy before they even touch a gun.

[Kharn]

Tamara:
Magnum or Special? Or should we just assume the former? :uhoh:

Kharn

[feedthehogs]

The average woman does have weak fore arms and fingers.
They don't practice regularly and hate the noise even with hearing protectors on.

The problem with the revolver lite weight womens guns to the average lady is the reduced weight and felt recoil even with lite loads, which suck for a self defense situation.

Semi autos give a different problem in the strength needed for pulling back the slide.
You can install lighter weight recoil springs but then the gun slams on standard defense loads which increases felt recoil and can damage the gun.

Trying to find the right combination of recoil, weight, concealment and stopping potential given the skill level takes time but can be done.

A big factor is how it fits in the hand. Changing grips can make quite a difference.

Its up to a qualified instructor to recognize these problems and help correct them.

Nobody will use a gun or practice with a gun that hand bites them.

I've given instruction to over 300 women for their CWP permit. It takes more time than instruction to men on the whole but needs to be done.

I've only told 2 women to forget the gun and hire a body guard.

One screamed at ruining her $150.00 nail job on the trigger guard and the other could not get over jumping, not flinching but jumping everytime the gun went off. I spent 15 hours with her but determined it was more of a mental block than anything and suggested a shrink to help out.

But at least women don't have bad habits to break.
Like holding the gun sideways Hollyweird style. Man I hate that!

[Waitone]

I do product development and marketing for a living. Unfortunately I don't work in the firearms industry.

Based on what I've seen in the world of firearms I have to say no one company has set down and used a clean sheet of paper on a gun designed for women. It seems most major companies have elements that could be applied to a consistently designed firearm, but no one seems to have put it all together.

I might be an interesting exercise to make a list of product attributes for a women's firearm.

[Dave Markowitz]

I believe that old Mossberg .410 pump with the vertical foregrip was marketed specifically with womenfolk in mind.

Yup. It's still made as the "Home Security .410," though I haven't seen any ads for it in quite some time. Looks like a good idea, and not just for women. I'd leave off the spreader choke, though.

[Trisha]

I've always thought both the MAC-10 and the UZI were designed for women. Maybe I just enjoy 'Night of the Comet' too much. . .

Every time I've seen a girl shoot one, she's gotten very possessive of it!

A close second has to be the AR-15 and wonderful clones, certainly.

Women you've had experience with in Florida seem to be weak, feedthehogs? It ain't the case here in the high country - maybe it's a fashion thing, I dunno.

Few girls carry more than a .40 on their CCW, but they love everything up to crew-serviced weapons! A day at the range is enlightening - I always have to bring extra ammunition for my Desert Eagle. . .

I've been there, Tamara! Especially the time when I was dressed to the nines to meet Susan for lunch and dropped in to get a SOG Pentagon as a present. (wrinkled-nose smile)

Trisha

[El Tejon]

Dil, what needs to change is the perception that the tool must be reworked or redesigned. Young women often shoot my 1911s after less than an hour of instruction. Forget the sexist rubbish, and teach them. They'll be just fine. (Cowboy up everybody).

A wall covering (it is not the Last Supper) in my ancestral home shows two women defending a castle against the vile French horde. It reads, "With training all things are possible."

[telomerase]

The stocks on most long guns are too long for women. The MP5 has a nice short LOP...

[telomerase]

Seems like the AR's grip was designed for women's hands. Add a 6-position stock

Yeah, that's a good idea. Also Winchester makes a compact lever carbine with short LOP.

[El Tejon]

telo, the LOP on long guns are too long for almost everyone.:D

[telomerase]

telo, the LOP on long guns are too long for almost everyone.

Especially with body armor on ;)

[toro]

I have very small hands. I have always shot a .45 1911. I even shot them in matches. I had trouble learning to pull back the slide. After a bit of practice it bacame easy. You just have to practice and your OK.

The problem I had was with the 12 gauge shotgun. I shot a 12 gauge for a while. I took a course with it and it beat me to death. Although I passed the course. The teacher told me to change to a 20 gauge and shorten the stock. That solved the problem. My second class was the advanced shotgun and I did great with the 20 gauge shotgun. The stock should be of sufficient length and have sufficient "drop" that, when mounted, it fits firmly in the shoulder pocket and, also, allows a good cheek weld with the comb (top) of the stock. When the toe of the stock is placed in the crook of the elbow, the first knuckle of the trigger finger should be able to reach the trigger. That way a small woman can handle the shotgun much better.

Mrs. Toro


________________________________________
11 John 1:9
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those thing which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

[Abominable No-Man]

Delmar, your post cracked me up!

Something similar happened to me and my wife. My wife is tiny, 5'2" and about 90lbs and she likes "manly" guns, too. Not so much into pistols, tho, not her thing I guess- she DOES dig shooting the .30-06, so recoil isn't a problem for her.

Anyway, about a year ago she was talking about getting her own pistol to have round the house when I got deployed. Okay, says I, good idea, and we went looking around. Tried the 1911 (she didn't like the "paddle thingie on the back of the handle") and a few others. Didn't look like she was going to find one that turned her crank, and she eventually settled on my Mossy 12 ga.

Anyway, about a week ago, we stopped by the local gun store to see if they had anything new. The Jer**ff behind the counter tried to push a Raven-like thing on her (chrome-plated, pink grips, probably couldn't clear a stuffy nose with it......). She looked at it kind of like "what the hell am I supposed to do with this?". HE got miffed and asked her just "how do you plan to handle a BIG gun?"

She said "Big as a 12-ga or big as a .30-06?"

Gas for trip to the gun store....22$
Box of 12-ga OO buck..............12$
Expression on gun-store blowhard's face.....priceless!

ANM

BTW, she's looking interested in the Ruger .44 mag carbine......

[C.R.Sam]

Fit
Fit of weapon to the particular body. Regardless of gender.

My grannie had no trouble with her .44 Russian and .44 triple lock purse guns. She was a wee thing but had good hands and really long fingers.

She had to have customized shotgun stocks tho.

A lady's gun would be the gun that well fit the particular lady.

Tough challange for marketing folks of mass production companies.

Sam

[Black92LX]

Tanfoligio has one made especially for woman.

It's called the Lady Force
http://www.tanfoglio.it/plasticframe/images/ladyforce.jpg

here is the link to it.
Lady Force (http://www.tanfoglio.it/sportandcompetition/ladyforce.htm)

[Oracle]

My wife shoots my father's 1911's better than I do (better than he does too...snicker), but prefers to carry a smaller/lighter gun.

[Gary H]

Good posts here... especially feedthehogs and C.R. Sam.....

Stole my thunder...


I spent a lot of money on many guns and learned many lessons on the way to making my 4'9", 85 pound wife happy.

First, people come in all sizes and that is the only issue. If you are shooting shotguns then breasts come into play, but not with handguns..at least I would hope that they don't have a role to play. So, we are discussing a people size issue...other than how pretty a Lady Smith may be...

My wife had real problems with semi-auto racking of the slide...but so did my dad. My wife had a problem with loading 9mm into a magazine..so did my father.

Wife's solution:

S&W Model 66 4" with Jerry Miculek grips and SP-101 3" stock..trigger job.

Father's solution: S&W 66 4" & Walther P-99 in .40. No problem racking the Walther and the .40 is easier to load.... .45 ACP even easier..comes with multiple/grips..including a grip for small hands Also, many of the Berettas are relatively easy to rack.

[Keith]

Interesting.

My wife is of the petite variety and doesn't shoot long guns well. Pump guns are a bad idea for someone without much upper body strength.

Baikal makes a damned nice little short-barreled double shotgun in 20 and 12 gauge for about $200. I think that would make an excellent home defense "long" gun for a small woman.
Or how about an M1 Carbine stoked with softnoses? The recoil is negligible and ANYONE can handle one of these.

Keith

[Geezer]

I am 5'8", wear a size 16 1/2 by 33 shirt. Shortening the standard stocks on my Browning A-bolts by 3/4" reduced my group size by about 1/2 (50%).

Replacing my Mossberg 500 standard stock with a bantam stock (grind to fit) completely eliminated felt recoil, to the point where after 2 full days at Front Sight shooting slugs and 00 buck, I had no soreness at all in my shoulder. I have no doubt that with the bantam stock, I could run off several hundred slug loads without any unpleasant sensation whatsoever.

My only regret is that I didn't knock 1" or 1 1/4" off the rifle stocks.

Even youth size shotguns may have too long an LOP for smaller sized people.

God bless and y'all be careful out there.:cool:

[Mr Kablammo]

Women and Guns magazine just ran an article about the Berreta 96, IIRC. In the pictures, the lady seemed real happy shooting it. The grip seems to be smaller than the 92f and fits a women's hands better. Also, it is a DAO so once it is chambered its 'point and pull'. I thought that Berreta made a .32 for ladies, the one where the barrel pops up for loading the first round. What about the Browning BDA in .380? It is pretty enough to be a ladies model.

[Dilettante]

Especially the time when I was dressed to the nines to meet Susan for lunch and dropped in to get a SOG Pentagon as a present.

The poor guy probably couldn't concentrate for the rest of the day ;)

(On the other hand, if he was really a prick, I hope you made a fool of him.)

[C.R.Sam]

I was assembled even worse than Geezer.
5'8"....16.5 or 17 neck....and 30" sleeves.
No arm length....no long gun stocks fit without whackin on em.

Sam.....think my parents lost the assembly instructions.

[Brian Dale]

My sister's a gun gal; as long as the weapon FITS, she doesn't care about recoil.

[Gary H]

My wife is of the petite variety and doesn't shoot long guns well. Pump guns are a bad idea for someone without much upper body strength.

Opposite experience here. Pumps were a bit lighter and easier to lift. The over/unders were difficult to break. Of course, the Baikal isn't as tight as some of the others..but it was a Baikal and one other over/under that Amy had problems with. She now breaks clays with some level of skill using a 20 ga. 870. The stock has been custom fit..by myself.. and now fits her. It has an LOP of about 10 3/4". That was the easy part. The hard part was getting the other angles right. This is where a woman's build is a bit more challenging.

She has a 7mm-08 that is built for a wee person. It is a Ruger Compact Bolt with a nice Leupold scope. She really likes this rifle.

http://home.mindspring.com/~mamiya/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/AmyinColors.jpg.w560h373.jpg

[Vasilia Zhietzev]

er.um.uh.....

ok...i have given some time and thought to designing handguns for women. a rifle can be modified, usually a different stock to reduce recoil, a pad, and the right caliber usually takes care of it. the AR-15 is a good teaching tool - it's simple to operate, clean & load. and with minimal recoil.

handguns need a bit more thought. sure, a smaller handgrip would do fine for most ladies, but a smaller caliber, say, anything less than a 9mm may not have the knockdown power needed to stop an assailant. imagine your mom shooting a keltec .32? most women may be nervous, excited and just plain scared. think she'll hit center mass with little to no training? really? and if she does manage it, do you think that flesh wound would stop an attacker, or just piss him off? so, there's the dilemma - how big is big enough without knocking over the person pulling the trigger? and how can it designed to eliminate thinking beyond just point and pull the trigger? (reducing muzzle flip and recoil would also be concerns.)
i know it sounds kinda harsh, but IMHO, that is what is needed to reach the masses.

my personal preference is for sig sauer automatics, but the ruger GP series (service revolvers) makes for a good reliable handgun that is not hard to operate nor is too big or heavy for most women. in fact, there's a lot out there that women can handle already, it just takes exposure & training.

on the flipside, i don't think pretty colors or phoo-phoo designs on the barrel & handle will do much for women purchasing guns themselves. it may appeal to the trendy criminal more, lol...nickel-plating is pretty, but i look for performance 1st, boys....tho i will say some of the older pistols & such that were inlaid & engraved were quite eye-catching, nor would i be rude enough to say no, if presented with one.

if you want to see some sketches i've done, i can post some.

[BluesBear]

I am suprised no one mentioned the Wilkinson .25 auto pistol. I can't remember the cutsey name they had for it but I think it was the Diana. it was a pretty good copy of the old Baby Browning. It came in Gold, Pink & Baby Blue

[Sean Smith]

The need to choose (or adapt) a gun to suit the particular shooter is a valid consideration, and an important one.

The stuff about women being too weak to handle real guns and major calibers is B.S.

Most complaints about limitations of female shooters tell you more about the limitations of the would-be instructor than the women that are alluded to.

[Holly76201]

As a "Chick", just thought I throw my opinion into the mix as far as firearms go.
When I first met my {now}husband, he put a Gold Cup in my hands and it was love at 1st shot. Same with Browning Hi-Power.
I carry a .45 ACP in my purse b/c it won't conceal a Gold Cup.
Carry either a Keltec p-32 or a p-11 in my pocket or waistband when I'm working.
So now you know.

[Dr.Rob]

I'd agree that once a woman decides she wants to shoot she gets more BS from the mysoginists among our kind than she would have ever thought.

The firearms "designed" for women are few and far between outside SW ladysmith line, althought the humble 1911 and Walther 99 have a few things others don't.

Namely, you can easily customize the grip frame with the swapping out of the MSH. That's a feature that's cool and shouldn't be gender specific.

Rather than talk about ladies with "weak" hands and short fingers, why not talk about guns built with better ergonomics from the get go.

My gal pal shoots a full sized 92F. The trigger reach on the 92F at DA annoys me, she thinks it's fine. She also breaks boards with her fists. Go figure.

Hand size, grip strength, LOP and "kick" are all factors in picking a gun for someone, but they are also "defects" that can be trained away and or "fixed" with appropriate technology.

[Dilettante]

(Holly)
As a "Chick", just thought I throw my opinion into the mix as far as firearms go.
When I first met my {now}husband, he put a Gold Cup in my hands and it was love at 1st shot. Same with Browning Hi-Power.

Excellent! Does "love at 1st shot" mean the gun, or the guy? Maybe I should try this on dates!

Do you shoot any larger guns? What do you think of the ergos?

(Dr. Rob)
She also breaks boards with her fists.

With her fists?? :eek: Not with her palm heel?

[mrstang01]

When my wife showed up for her CCW class, it was mostly ladies with only 3 guys. When the instructor asked everyone to show clear on their weapons, everyone had either a 9mm or .38 Special. When he gets to her, he asks is that a 9 she's carrying. Her reply? Nope, 9's are for wusses, it's a .45, I carry a real gun! He was a bit nervous about letting her shoot, and "hovered" nearby in case he had to grab the gun if she had trouble.

Was I ever proud when she got the best score in the class on the shooting portion!

Her choice was a .45 Witness compact similar to the one above. It's all about fit, she picked what she wanted.

[Orthonym]

It depends. I remember my high-school sweety from ~35 years ago; She shot skeet competitively with a 12-gauge. Won prizes. I think she MIGHT have weighed 90 pounds soaking wet.

[Ian11]

Last time I went shooting there was a woman shooting her full size H&K USP .45 pistol. She was about medium height and very trim. Her hands did not look big enough or strong enough to handle the full size USP comfortably. She still smoked everyone else shooting at the range.

On that day I was trying to concentrate on building up my mediocre skills with my snub nose .38. I wished I brought my SIG P220ST instead that day. Not because I could have outshot her. She had some serious skills. Its just that my gun looked so small next to her USP.:o

[Holly76201]

Dilettante,
it was 1st love for the Gold Cup and Hi-Power. Took another few months for the guy.

[Trisha]

Dilettante;

I wore a turquoise blue mini-dress, black 3" shouch boots, back-seamed stockings, black tailored leather blazer, full makeup and nails. My S&W Bodyguard was in my purse, my HK USP Compact was in a shoulder holster, and I had a Cold Steel Recon Tanto on my inside thigh above the hemline.

"A lady as pretty as you should be carrying a gun - have you ever thought about it?"

"I'm just here to buy that Pentagon, a gift for my partner. Can I see it, please?"

"Sure; here! I bet you could shoot this little .38 just fine; you want to look at it, too?"

"No, thank you (lays CCW permit on counter, followed by Bodyguard), I love my .357. . ."

Clerk starts, hands me the Pentagon, can't seem to look anywhere but either the snubby or my clevage.

"Um, you shouldn't carry a gun in your purse - what about it gets snatched?"

I remove my blazer. "Then I might just shoot him in the @ss."

More flustered. Still can't look me in the eye. "So, are you a cop or something?"

The Pentagon is lovely. I slip my blazer back on. "I'm gay. That falls into the 'or something' category."

The clerk manages to look me in the face - barely. Lipstick is too much of a distraction for him to make eye contact. Crew-cut, 30-something, tan, probably works out; but women must be from another planet. . .

Two other customers, one of whom I know and go shooting with are paying attention by this time.

"Ken - good to see you!"

"Wow! Trish, I barely recognized. . . you're going to meet Susan, right? Damn, but you clean up nice!"

"Down, boy! Yep, lunch at The Brown Palace - you think Susan will like this?"

"She's getting a knife for once? I thought you were the cutlery girl of the two!"

Chuckling, nodding. "I like getting personal - she's talked about one of these and today is the perfect excuse." Credit card is handed to the clerk, who's now the color of a ripe peach clear to his ears.

Ken glances at the clerk, grinning. "Calm down - she and Susan are two dykes you'd either love to meet in a dark alley, or they'd be the last people you'd see!" Ken looks me over and nods.

"So, where's your knife? You never go out without one."

"None of your business."

"Sign here, Ma'am." The clerk manages to look me in the eye as I hand him the receipt. "A .40 is a good caliber - that HK is a good gun." He hands me the boxed blade in a paper bag.

"Jesus, Bill! She shoots .45's! Get over it!"

I'm starting to get pissed, but stay cool. Bill, the clerk, has a High Power on his hip. I smile sweetly and head for the door, trying not to grind my teeth.

Ken gets the door for me. I look him in the eye and see he's grinning from ear-to-ear, but it fades when he sees the storm clouds behind my eyes.

"I know being straight is a lifestyle choice - just don't expect me to ever understand it."

He nods, munching his lip.

"I'll take care of it, Trish; he's new - good to see you again. Say 'Hi' to Susan for me."

I took a couple of deep breaths before I got behind the wheel.

Lunch was delightful, but I didn't mention anything about making the purchase. . .

Trisha

[.45FMJoe]

Trish,

your post is worthless without pictures!! :rolleyes:



:D :D :D :D :D



:uhoh:

[Dr.Rob]

Dillatante,

Fists, heels of hands.. semantics. The fact is I don't practice karate and she does. My point was to illustrate that she's ... well, tougher than me in some ways.

[Ian11]

Trisha,

Based on the exchange you posted I just think there wasn't a need to be overtly arrogant about the fact you carry or what you carry compared to whom. I think you want to be treated as an equal and this world is not ready for that fact quite yet. Plus, the fact that there aren't that many women like you in this world. The kind Camille Paglia advocates in her books (don't know if you admire her or not); intelligent, armed, and self reliant. A friend of mine (she's straight) is pretty, buxom, petite and a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. But she tells everyone about that fact repeatedly. She constantly goes on about the fact she can kick his butt or her butt or my butt :D :rolleyes: all the time. Sometimes in a joking way but sometimes its hard to tell if she's joking or not. Her mutual friends and I humour her, kinda smile but we all agree its starting to wear a little thin.

As for your sexuality. I just don't understand how that became a point in that exchange you just posted. Bill the clerk was either flustered by your "hotness" or your sexuality? I don't know, but there was no need to get defensive or point out the fact he carrys a 9mm next to your .45. By the way I don't consider short barrel .45's to be that much effective than a 9mm. Its the shooter not the gun. :neener: Although I'm assuming you're a pretty good shot. :uhoh:

As a heterosexual guy myself I admire women (straight or gay) who can take names and don't apologize for it. But take it down a notch. All I'm saying is there's a thin line between confidence and hostility.


....And yeah, if you're going to post something like that I think we'd all like to see a picture of who we're dealing with. :scrutiny:

[Sean Smith]

Trisha,

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/eek2.gif

In all fairness, it is a sad truth that most folks aren't used to seeing heavily armed lesbians in mini-dresses shopping for bladed weapons. I dunno what kind of reaction you'd expect from showing up in a hot outfit, showing off your weapons, and telling everyone you are gay. Probably won't prompt a frank exchange on the merits of Cartesian dualism, for instance. Which isn't a reason not to do anything, but you've got to have realistic expectations. To quote The Bard:

You've gotta remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the New West. You know ... morons.
-Blazing Saddles

;)

[ReadyontheRight]

Maybe I just enjoy 'Night of the Comet' too much. . .

As I recall, after the the younger sister shoots the Mac-10, she rolls her eyes and says in Valley Girl-eze:

"...DADDY would have gotten us UZIs..."


:D

[Abominable No-Man]

Ummm, what were we talking about before the hot-lesbian-chick-with-guns
thing again? Or were you joking?

Errr.....pleased to have met you, BTW.

I think.

ANM:scrutiny:

[Vasilia Zhietzev]

"...DADDY would have gotten us UZIs..."

ROFLMAO!!!

... & thanks for putting my day back into perspective.

interesting posts by all, yes....and i think the thought that it's simply a case of ergonomics & correct training seems to pop up here is good. think i'll hang out here with you folks on the high road. it should'nt be an issue what ANYONE wants to shoot, just train right for it, and make the mods if needed so it fits your body.

the description of love at first sight brings a smile to my face, too. i fell in love with a sako TRG-41S...of which i still have lustful dreams of owning one day. ;-)

ahh. come here, my little .338 lapua babuska...

[Browns Fan]

I dont think that anyone has brought up the fact that (correct me if I'm wrong) it's much easier to rack the slide of an automatic if you pull the hammer back first. Most folks that are upper-boby-strength-challenged can do this.

[AZLibertarian]

Years ago I was shopping for a handgun for Mrs. AZLib, and one of the best pieces of advice I got was to make sure it was stainless. The clerk that gave me this nugget made the point that the first thing you want the BG to think is "Jesus....the Bitch has a Gun!!". That thought alone might keep her from having to pull the trigger. Men all want the latest in tactical fashion.

She got the Walther PPK....in stainless, of course.