Long Distance Self-Defense Rifle


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jwalker497
February 24, 2009, 11:56 PM
Assuming #@&% hit the fan and one needed a defensive rile, please help me find a relativley Cheap ($750 & under) Semi-Auto Rifle that would be a good for SD purposes. I emphasize cheap and prefer it to be $500 and under but would be willing to go to $750. This rifle would not be for hunting, purely Self Defense. I don't really know too much about rifles aside from a few Bolt action Deer rifles. Please let me know what claiber I should be considering and what type of capacity, features, etc I need to look for. I welcome your reccomendations. Thanks, in advance.

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jpwilly
February 24, 2009, 11:59 PM
For $750 two rifles come to mind. The PSL-54C 7.62x54R! or an M1 Garand 30-06. Enbloc clip reloads are quicker than you think and the M1 Garand can put them down range quite well.

RedNoma
February 25, 2009, 12:00 AM
Why do you need long distance, for a strictly SD rifle? The only thing that will fit that bill that I can think of is an AR and that will be over your budget setup for long and short range.

Pilot
February 25, 2009, 12:04 AM
Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron

Long distance? Escape and Evade.

jwalker497
February 25, 2009, 12:04 AM
I am looking for a semiauto rifle to compliment my SD collection of handguns and shotguns. I don't have a semi SD rifle at all, only a few bolt action rifles for hunting. I am looking for inexpensive reccomendations for a SD semi rifle , preferably $500 and under. I realize that SD & long distance may be contradictory, but nevertheless what I am looking for is an all-purpose SD semi-auto rifle.

Birdhunter1
February 25, 2009, 12:13 AM
Self defense rifle and cheap... Ak or SKS. The commies have been using them for years and they are manstoppers. Last time I checked they were realtively cheap compared to an AR rifle, but I never followed them very close.

crebralfix
February 25, 2009, 12:18 AM
Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron

If the guy has a rifle and is shooting at you...say...from a belltower in Texas....

I just love these gunstore lawyer declarative statements that cover all cases!

***

I guess it depends upon your definition of long range. An AR15 with a PFI Rapid Reticle scope will make 600 yard shots BORING and EASY. You can do 300 yard shots just fine with a Mauser, Garand, AK, SKS, FAL, or whatever.

Since you mention a $750 budget...I'd say either get an AK and some magazines (good luck) or a service grade Garand from the CMP. The reason for the Garand is that the clips are very low cost in comparison to magazines and you can get surplus ball ammunition from the same source.

Ed Ames
February 25, 2009, 12:19 AM
SKS fits the bill.

hso
February 25, 2009, 12:23 AM
Cheap is going to put you into an SKS. I have seen some SKS rifles for $450 (although I shudder at that price).

You still can get an AK for $750. I recommend the 5.45 AK-type carbines. Ammunition is still relatively plentiful and comparatively inexpensive (at 1,000 round case lots).

X-Rap
February 25, 2009, 12:29 AM
An SKS is well within your price range and would serve well with iron sites.
If you are set on 308 or 30-06 and want to stay under 500 look at a Rem. 760 pump. It is not an auto but is not threatening in appearence and when scoped can make consistant hits past 300 yds. There are carbine configurations available and any stock that fits an 870 20 ga will fit the 760.
10 rd mags are available.

MaterDei
February 25, 2009, 12:34 AM
Am I the only one who finds irony in the fact that the guy who said this,

just love these gunstore lawyer declarative statements

also said this,

a PFI Rapid Reticle scope will make 600 yard shots BORING and EASY

I concur with the SKS/AK recommendation.

VegasOPM
February 25, 2009, 12:40 AM
I love my Garand and the CMP has some available right now for less than the $750 price point. Wait a few months and AR's will be back down there.

W.E.G.
February 25, 2009, 01:17 AM
Yikes.

The SKS is now a "long distance" self-defense rifle.

If you really think you are going to be trading long-distance lead with zombies when the SHTF, you really should think about spending more money now.

7.62Surgeon
February 25, 2009, 01:18 AM
Might take a look at the CETME. It's a .308 with (I believe) a 20 round mags. Maximum range 600m (656 yards) if scoped. It's only slightly longer than an AR. I've seen them average around $600 and go for as little as $300.

X-Rap
February 25, 2009, 01:24 AM
[QUOTE][/Q Wait a few months and AR's will be back down there.
__________________
UOTE]Do you really believe that? What level do you think?

VegasOPM
February 25, 2009, 02:53 AM
As for the prices returning to normal, I'd bet that a 16" A2, will be back to the $700- $800 price point by July or August. The DPMS Sportical was $699 before the panic buying set in- I don't see why it won't return. Due to the panic buying, every ugly rifle maker has been working double time. That means that there is a shortage now, but a glut is coming when everyone catches up.

TAB
February 25, 2009, 02:57 AM
m1...

C-grunt
February 25, 2009, 06:19 AM
If you look around the used market, you can find ARs for under 750.

Under 500, I would say the SKS or maybe a used AK.

Travis Bickle
February 25, 2009, 08:45 AM
IMO, the much-overlooked FN-49 is the best deal going for those who want a defensive rifle on a budget. You can usually find a few on Gunbroker and gunsamerica.

SwearNoAllegiance
February 25, 2009, 08:49 AM
Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron

Long distance? Escape and Evade.

But if you're fat and will eventually be overrun, by all means, kill them all.

jjohnson
February 25, 2009, 09:13 AM
I don't buy it either.

If I had to give an answer, even though it takes a lot of imagination for me to consider "long range SD" unless you're in uniform in Afghanistan or Iraq, I'd put the money on an SKS or AK variant. You may as well get something that's fun to play with at the range, since you're not likely to ever need it for SD at long range. :scrutiny:

I've not been impressed with the Black Stick :barf: since I had to carry one for three years in the Army, but if you can find one at your price, same deal - may as well get something you're likely to play with.

Nothing wrong with M1 Garands, Galil, FAL, CETME auto, and other MilSurp quasi-assault rifles. You can take any of them to your local 600 yard range and shoot silhouette targets from cover while you "fire and manuever" over the course.

TexasRifleman
February 25, 2009, 09:29 AM
If the guy has a rifle and is shooting at you...say...from a belltower in Texas....

Quote from an officer on the scene:

Ramiro Martinez, an officer who confronted Whitman, later stated in his book that the civilian shooters should be credited, as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim without being hit.

No, rifles have no defensive use do they.......

Rarely? Sure. Never? It's happened at least once.

And, again in Texas (why do we get them) a non-LE engaged a rifle wielding nutcase in Tyler TX with a handgun, even though he had a rifle close by. Unfortunate that he chose to use the handgun, it cost him his life. Maybe if he had picked up the rifle? We'll never know.

Then there was the guy that worked for HK who defended himself and his girlfriend with a full auto Mini-14, can't remember his name at the moment.

I'm sure there are plenty of others, I haven't had enough coffee yet.

There is absolutely a case to be made that rifles can have a long range defensive use, it's just very rare.

As for the OP, it's important to look at the cases where a rifle was actually used defensively. In all of these I've listed the rifle was used away from it's owners home. The rifle was in the car with them. Something to keep in mind as you shop, if you live in a state where you can carry long guns around you want something portable.

crebralfix
February 25, 2009, 10:28 AM
MasterDei,

I do not understand how a shooting setup for 600 yard targets (with hyperbole in the context of a long range shooting class that I failed to mention) relates to someone declaring that there is never a legitimate use for a long range rifle in self-defense.

***

Thanks TexasRifleman...that's the article I was thinking of!! Great citation.

***

So, to address the OP's question and subsequent post, "general" long range rifle probably falls within the battle rifle category. The popular opinion on these rifles is that they're effective to at least 600 yards. "Effective" does not mean "capable of hitting paper"...it means hitting the target while maintaining rifle level performance. This eliminates guns like the AR-15 in 5.56x45mm and the AK-47 in 7.62x39mm (which hits like a 9mm at that distance). Guns that are in your price range include the M1 Garand, used M1A's (if you're very, very lucky), older FALs, and similar rifles. Of the guns on the list, I think the M1 Garand is the way to go.

I highly recommend that you read Boston's Gun Bible for a good introduction to this topic.

Evenflo76
February 25, 2009, 10:29 AM
Kel-Tec Sub 2000 or similar... To work with Glock or beretta mags. These are still inexpensive and readily available (mags and rifle) and shoot 9mm accurately at longer ranges.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 25, 2009, 10:32 AM
SKS, AK-style/Saiga, or Kel Tec SU-16B. Your choice of caliber (except for the SKS, which has one caliber choice).

Bigfoot
February 25, 2009, 02:00 PM
If you really think you are going to be trading long-distance lead with zombies when the SHTF, you really should think about spending more money now.

Crap! Zombies shoot guns now? At long range too? I've seen how the newer ones, especially the obese femles can run really fast so I geared up for that, but if they are shooting and even sniping now then I need to rethink my zombie fighting gun.

WardenWolf
February 25, 2009, 02:08 PM
I'd have to vote PSL. Semi-auto, low recoil, long range, high power, very accurate. Light weight, too. You can rescope it however you want.

JShirley
February 25, 2009, 02:11 PM
500 meters would be stretching its performance envelope, but you should be able to get a Kel Tec SU-16 (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16a.htm) for that kind of money. Neat, handy little rifle that takes M16/AR-15 mags.

Here's the C model (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16c.htm).

Here's the CA model (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16ca.htm).

In my experience, Kel Tecs usually go for 20-30% less than MSRP, so this and some mags should stay in your budget. If you already have some .223 and a low-power scope, that is. :)

I see I'm neglecting some of your questions. .223 is a good defensive caliber because it has little recoil, is flat-shooting within reasonable defensive distances, is powerful enough, is easy to find, and is small and light enough that a good amount can be carried by a reasonably fit person. Other reasonable defensive cartridges include the 7.62x39mm (more close range power, less distance) and 5.45x39mm (cheaper rifles, cheaper ammunition, more range than 7.62x39, less range than .223).

More powerful cartridges can be used, but they are heavier, have more recoil, and cost more.

I don't know you, but don't get stuck into believing that only what gunshop commandos "know" you should have is what will work for you. I think a really good general purpose rifle for most U.S. shooters is the CZ 527 in 7.62x39mm. Light, handy, reasonably priced, and shoots a caliber that is big enough for close deer-sized game but has little recoil and is inexpensive. Other good defensive choices could include a new M1 Carbine or something really different like a Kel-Tec Sub2000 in .40 caliber (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm). With a Sub-2000, you would be limiting yourself to 120 meter effective defensive range, and could only take very close shots if you decided you needed to harvest deer with it, but it's small enough to fit in a survival pack or keep in a small locked case in a vehicle for "reactive" situations. IOW, when you wanted something that was easy to keep with you, but that could outrange standard handguns.

Hope this helps,

John

jwalker497
February 25, 2009, 03:10 PM
Would the Ruger Mini 14 be a good choice?

UnTainted
February 25, 2009, 03:16 PM
I don't have a problem thinking of having to use a weapon to kill somebody at a very long range.

self defense requires (in most jurisdictions) that you have a reasonable apprehension of imminent: death, great bodily harm, rape, kidnapping.

Imminent does not HAVE to be defined entirely by distance. If you're being hunted by people clearly wanting to kill you (either SHTF or invasion or insurrection), there is no reason why you wouldn't be justified by the existing law (if it's being applied during that time) as by reasonably having that apprehension. AT that point, your 500+ yard shot, or whatever distance, is still self defense.

Now, the use of a weapon for the Common Defense (I'm pulling this term from U.S. v. Miller (1939); from U.S. Constitution Art. 1, Section 8; and from the unwritten concepts of the preamble of the Second Amendment, as interpreted by Miller), could be far more beneficial if it is a weapon able of being used at long ranges.

eye5600
February 25, 2009, 03:24 PM
For some reason, the sequence M1 -> M14 -> Mini-14 doesn't work for most people. I wonder why.

I question the need for semi-auto in a long range weapon. At the ranges where you have to aim, and aim carefully, to hit even a stationary target, you don't lose much by having to work a bolt.

Travis Bickle
February 25, 2009, 03:26 PM
Would the Ruger Mini 14 be a good choice?

Not really. I own a Mini, and it's a great gun for its intended purpose, but a long distance rifle it is not.

JShirley
February 25, 2009, 03:47 PM
jwalker,

I guess what most people aren't quite clear about is if you mean "long distance self defense" (and mean "greater than typical handgun range") rifle or "long distance/self-defense rifle".

In other words, what do you mean? How are you defining long distance? If you mean a rifle meant to cover anything between contact distance to maybe 300 meters, practically any semiautomatic carbine in the rifle calibers I mentioned will work. If you mean a dedicated long distance (350 meters plus) rifle, you should probably look for a bolt-action rifle. One of the ones you own may already be perfectly suitable.

My general purpose /disaster rifle is a sporterized 1903 Springfield with 2-8x scope. My dedicated short-to-intermediate defensive rifle is a 16" AR carbine. You should realistically evaluate your needs or mission for this platform before making any decisions. You should especially evaluate what you mean by "long distance".

If you really want an inexpensive autoloader for close range, a Sub2000 in 9mm or .40 would allow you to have a fairly high capacity shoulder arm that's light enough to take both it and your favorite bolt gun. If you faced multiple threats at closer range, the 2000 should take care of that. Past 130 meters, the bolt gun should be your choice.

The necessity of a TEOTWAWKI autoloader is overblown, in my opinion. I think most Americans will do great with a general purpose rifle that they also use to hunt deer-sized game. Bonus points if it's sturdy and takes a common cartridge such as .30-06 or .308.

John

Funderb
February 25, 2009, 03:49 PM
sks would be simple, powerful, and accurate enough. I was shooting 8" targets consistently at 200 yds standing with an sks this weekend.

Arcticfox
February 25, 2009, 04:13 PM
Seems to me that long distance, and self defense is an oxymoron.

ExtremeSquared
February 25, 2009, 04:56 PM
Self defense against the army? Really, i'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the scenario.

X-Rap
February 25, 2009, 05:06 PM
I have a lot less problem with this thread than the Whats the best Sniper Rifle Threads
If a person puts a rifle into his self defence plan should the sights be hammered off or ammo down loaded so it is ineffective past 25 yds?
I like the concept of using a handgun to fight my way to my rifle personally.

Interceptor_Knight
February 25, 2009, 05:21 PM
If you are benty on a semiauto, just get yourself a SKS and practice with it. It is the least expensive readily available option. You can buy a set of Tech-Sights if all you want is iron, or put whatever optics your heart desires. Take your SKS and 400 rounds to an Appleseed which will give you the tools you need to hit targets out to 400 yds consistently.
If you want real world advice, let me tell you that you will never need a semiauto for long distance self defense.

The SKS is now a "long distance" self-defense rifle.
If you really think you are going to be trading long-distance lead with zombies when the SHTF, you really should think about spending more money now.
300 yards is long distance for most people. Few hunting shots are taken at that distance. The reality is that a SKS is all you "need" for 300 yd shooting with a semiauto....

orphanedcowboy
February 25, 2009, 05:26 PM
Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron

Long distance? Escape and Evade.

Amen to that

skeet king
February 25, 2009, 05:43 PM
get a jg sales romainian PSL, it's 10 rounds of 7.62x54 with a really nice range rinding reticle for around 600 bucks i think

Interceptor_Knight
February 25, 2009, 05:51 PM
Would the Ruger Mini 14 be a good choice?
Nothing wrong with a Mini 14. The new production rifles are easily under 2MOA which is twice as accurate than you really "need".

Double Naught Spy
February 25, 2009, 07:38 PM
Seems to me that long distance, and self defense is an oxymoron.

Is that because you don't think people can hurt you at longer than CQB distances?

Let's see, where have there been longer distance shootings where the bad guys engaged good guys and good guys might have been a lot better off if they had rifles....?

UT Clocktower sniper (already mentioned)
Watts Riots
various mall shootings
various school shootings
Shooting on the square, Tyler, Texas
Chai Soua Vang in Wisconsin incident
DC Snipers

Most/all involved the bad guys with long guns.

For the task described, I like the idea of a carbine, be it an AK, SKS, or other shorter-barreled rifle. If you don't want a semi-auto, then I would suggest a larger capacity magazine fed bolt gun, but with a shorter barrel.

You will still get plenty of reach with a carbine, but it will be more compact for easier storage.

Interceptor_Knight
February 25, 2009, 07:52 PM
Is that because you don't think people can hurt you at longer than CQB distances?

Let's see, where have there been longer distance shootings where the bad guys engaged good guys and good guys might have been a lot better off if they had rifles....?

UT Clocktower sniper (already mentioned)
Watts Riots
various mall shootings
various school shootings
Shooting on the square, Tyler, Texas
Chai Soua Vang in Wisconsin incident
DC Snipers
DC Snipers were close distance. The other hunters who Vang murdered had rifles but were not prepared mentally to shoot at another human. Clock tower was defeated by rushing the tower. Malls and schools are CQB distances etc and etc.....
Nobody is going to be walking around the mall with a rifle. In most cases where someone is more than 50M away, you do not need a rifle as you can evade. In the Hollywood bank shootout, the police were offensively shooting. They deliberately engaged the bad guys while being under armed. The average person on the street could have ran the other way and been just fine.
Carbine defensive distances are not long distances. If you assume that you may someday need a rifle for gang bangers in your neighborhood, you only need to engage them in relatively short distances (200 yds and under). For long distances 300 yds+, the odds of you needing to be shooting defensively are nil. A bolt action rifle with a scope would suit you well.

TexasRifleman
February 25, 2009, 09:21 PM
Clock tower was defeated by rushing the tower.

The DPS officers on scene said they would not have been able to rush the tower if "civilians" with rifles had not kept Whitman's head down.

In most cases where someone is more than 50M away, you do not need a rifle as you can evade.

That depends on what your own personal morality is. The Tyler courthouse shootings show a man whose personal morality would not lallow for "evading" while a nutcase gunned down his ex wife and child. Unfortunately he tried to do the right thing with a handgun rather than a rifle.

Coyote_Hunter_
February 25, 2009, 09:24 PM
Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron

Long distance? Escape and Evade.
__________________
Pilot


Not necessarily the case in a SHTF scenario. Depends on a number of factors including:
A. The environment
B. Who you are protecting other than yourself

UnTainted
February 25, 2009, 09:29 PM
Love that factor B., Coyote Hunter! Good perspective.

sublimaze41
February 25, 2009, 09:39 PM
To me it's simple....

Garand, tough, proven, fun to shoot and easy to shoot well.

AK and SKS might be fine, but try and find the ammo.

The most popular caliber for rifles is .30-06. If you can't find ammo for that then it's really serious. Ya gotz to be able to feed your rifle.

556A2
February 25, 2009, 09:48 PM
Nearly any RIFLE caliber in nearly any rifle platform.

Don't discount bolt-actions and/or lever-actions. Read up on "The Mad Minute" with the Lee Enfield, or watch some Cowboy Action shooters run a lever-action.

EDIT

In before: You shouldn't use ________________ in a SHTF situation because of some theoretical issue with ________________.

Any rifle that you are well trained with, and have ammo for is a great choice. From a $69 M91/30 to a $2000 tricked-out AR-15.

Defense Minister
February 25, 2009, 09:50 PM
If I understand your question correctly, when you say "long distance", you mean relative to your shotguns and pistols. That being the case, the Mini-14 would be a fine choice, and you should be able to find one to fit your budget.

My primary defensive rifle is a Mini, and I love it. You will hear all the AR lovers bash the Mini, but I put about a hundred bucks and a little of my time into mine and it shoots MOA all day long. That is much better than either of the ARs I used to own, and one of them was a 20" Colt Match H-Bar. The Ruger barrel may not hold up to repetitive fire the way the AR chrome-lined barrels do, but, unless you are at war, it doesn't have to.

Double Naught Spy
February 25, 2009, 10:12 PM
IK, apparently you think that just because rifles are not commonly used for self defense purposes at greater than normal pistol distances that rifles would not be useful. That would be in error.

DC Snipers were close distance.

They were further that most folks shoot pistols, out to 150 yards.

The other hunters who Vang murdered had rifles but were not prepared mentally to shoot at another human.

That does not mean that rifles would not have been very useful for their defense, does it?


Clock tower was defeated by rushing the tower.
Yes, but under the assault of 10s of shooters on the ground using rifles that kept Whitman occupied (see http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Charles-Whitman ). Most of his targets were within 400 yards, certainly within the range of rifle caliber carbines, although his longest shot was a bit over 700 yards.

Malls and schools are CQB distances etc and etc.....
Folks shot in malls are often shot at distances greater than most folks use pistols. Some people shot at Columbine were shot in excess of 50 yards. As noted, Whitman's shots were out to 700+ yards.

Nobody is going to be walking around the mall with a rifle.
Ah, but managers or employees in stores at the mall could easily have long guns. Besides, bad guys manage to walk around the malls with rifles. However, that isn't the point, is it? Given the length of shooting events, such as at the Tacoma Mall, a person would have time to retreive a rifle from the parking lot.

In most cases where someone is more than 50M away, you do not need a rifle as you can evade.

Well gee, in most cases, you can evade lots of threats, but that doesn't make it always prudent, does it? In fact, in most cases, you don't even need a gun, do you?

Even if you can evade, it may not be the most prudent option depending on the circumstances.

In the Hollywood bank shootout, the police were offensively shooting. They deliberately engaged the bad guys while being under armed. The average person on the street could have ran the other way and been just fine.

Protecting the public isn't offensively shooting.

Carbine defensive distances are not long distances.
Really? Just how far do carbines shoot? I regularly shoot mine to 400 yards, occasionally out to 600. Carbines will certainly work well out to the 300 requested in the OP.

Interceptor_Knight
February 25, 2009, 10:29 PM
IK, apparently you think that just because rifles are not commonly used for self defense purposes at greater than normal pistol distances that rifles would not be useful. That would be in error.
You are missreading my posts. I didn't say that rifles are not a useful SD tool I said that "long distance" rifles are not normal SD tools and the odds of you needing to take a "long distance" SD shot with a rifle is near zero. A "long distance" semiautomatic is definitely not necessary for any type of self defense. Feel free to spend $2K+ on a .308 or larger semiautomatic if that is what floats your boat. You do not need a reason to buy whatever uber tactical large bore you wish. My point is that it is not needed for self defense.

Folks shot in malls are often shot at distances greater than most folks use pistols. Some people shot at Columbine were shot in excess of 50 yards.
Back to 50 yds is not long distance... 150 yds is not long distance for the average 12year old deer hunter with their .30-30.

Protecting the public isn't offensively shooting.
Yes it is... Their goal is to apprehend the felon. Police are obligated by their career to be offensive. Joe six pack is prohibited.


Really? Just how far do carbines shoot? I regularly shoot mine to 400 yards, occasionally out to 600. Carbines will certainly work well out to the 300 requested in the OP.

You just supported my premise that you do not need a long distance rifle for self defense. Any carbine including a SKS, Mini 14, Saiga, etc is just fine for self defense...;)

Interceptor_Knight
February 25, 2009, 10:33 PM
AK and SKS might be fine, but try and find the ammo.
Soft point "hunting" ammo is still plentiful and is still cheaper than .308 or .30-06.

moooose102
February 25, 2009, 10:56 PM
i now you are thinking semi auto, but do not overlook a lever gun. they can be racked pretty darned fast, and you wont have so much trouble finding ammo! 30-30+ levereveloution ammo + 300 yards!

The Deer Hunter
February 25, 2009, 11:03 PM
What about the Remington 7400 series?

I have seen them for about your price range and shoot .308 or .30-06. It's more of a traditional hunting rifle, and I don't know if you're looking for a more military style, but they are a long range semi automatic rifles.

Actually checking Kittery Trading Post's (big gun store around here) used gun catalog has a bunch right around $500, and in my experience they are over a good $150-$200 on most rifles.

Maelstrom
February 25, 2009, 11:08 PM
For the price range you're looking at, I'd consider ditching the semi-auto requirement and think about getting a lever or bolt gun.

If you're shooting at distance, unless you're hunting another sniper, the need for a repeater isn't there. Why do most military and police sharpshooters use bolt guns? Because a great bolt gun costs half of a great auto. Don't believe me? Look at the price of a PSG-1.

proplinker
February 25, 2009, 11:11 PM
Your choice is limited only by your billfold... AR's start at $900. but can be chambered in almost anything. the Garand or maybe the M1 carbine they should be in your price range. When you say long range is that 200yards or 1000yards?

Kleanbore
February 25, 2009, 11:32 PM
Long range + Self Defense = Oxymoron. Long distance? Escape and Evade.

Probably true in the vast majority of cases. It would be very difficult to argue that one was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and that deadly force was immediately necessary if the assailant were at "long range."

The Texas tower shooting, which I remember well, has been mentioned. Yes, civilians went and got their guns and came back and engaged Whitman.

What did that have to do with self defense? Nothing at all.

Citizens who had not been armed got their guns and came back. Proper action? I think so. Would I have done the same thing? Yes indeed. But I would not have been defending myself. I could have easily stayed away.

At that time the police were not well equipped to take out Whitman, and the armed citizens on the scene were indispensable. Would that be true today? Not where I live. Today our police have AR-15 rifles and sniper rifles, and they are trained to use them.

I suggest that it would be unlikely that someone on the scene could leave, get his rifle, return, and engage before the police had things under control. At that point it might be a lot wiser to let trained, authorized, and indemnified peace officers handle things. After all, everything that goes up (and is not stopped by anything) must come down, and the civilian shooter is liable for the results.

Ohio Gun Guy
February 26, 2009, 12:23 AM
Lets face it, he like many others here is is really asking....

The scenario he is prepairing for may include civil unrest, armed conflict, etc. It's just not polite to ask......"What do I need to defend myself from a the government and/or group of crazies.....like you?" Because you all can apparently shoot a gnat off a dogs @$$ from 1000 yards.

That's just not P.C. :evil:

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