ppl use ar-15 indoors?


PDA






badbadtz560
February 25, 2009, 01:51 AM
I finally went to an outdoor range the other day to shoot my AR. There was another person shootin an ar-15 as I was gettin out of the car and MAN did my ears hurt (I was at least 50 yards away).

Do people seriously use the ar-15 for home defense or indoors at all? To me it seems like shooting that sucker inside a house.. would be like hitting myself w/ a flash bang w/o the flash part.... unless u wear earplugs.

Does military use ear plugs when using these indoors?

If you enjoyed reading about "ppl use ar-15 indoors?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
orionhawk
February 25, 2009, 02:14 AM
well, I sure use ear-plugs when I shoot mine indoors (at a range - only place I can). if I recall correctly, our guys on the ground are supposed to, but frequently don't.

it's quieter than a shotgun.


it was funny the time my muzzle blast blew down a ceiling tile, though:D

General Geoff
February 25, 2009, 02:16 AM
ANY firearm will cause permanent hearing damage if fired indoors without ear protection. Most magnum caliber handguns will be even louder than an AR.

Big_E
February 25, 2009, 02:20 AM
Sounds like someone has sensitive ears... jk :neener:

Yeah any blast is pretty loud if it goes supersonic, I have no problems shooting 22lr (any load that is below supersonic) indoors. I can shoot cowboy loads with no problem to my ears but i always use ear and eye protection when shooting.

However in a HD situation a little damage to hearing is a great deal for protecting the lives of yourself and loved ones.

orionhawk
February 25, 2009, 02:21 AM
yeah, that too. nobody at the range pays any attention to my M4, but when we lit off a 4" .500S&WMag...

PTK
February 25, 2009, 02:27 AM
My AR-15 is always silenced when shot. It doesn't hurt a bit to fire indoors, and is the primary HD rifle.

Geneseo1911
February 25, 2009, 10:51 AM
When I still lived with my folks, which I assume was long enough ago to be outside the statute of limitations, we had a coyote problem. They would come right up into the yard at night and harass our dog. I kept my brother's mini-14 handy, and took a couple potshots at them one night from my window. The muzzle was outside (albeit just barely), but let me tell you, that baby was still loud! I regularly shot starlings from my windows with my 10/22 (I MISS living in the country), so I didn't even think about hearing protection, plus I assumed most of the noise would be outside anyway. I suspect the report was amplified by the fact I was standing in a dormer, which was about 4' wide and 8' long.

My ears rang a little for a couple minutes, although I think I could have still heard someone if they raised their voice. I also thought about what would happen in a home defense scenario. I would say that you won't be able to count on your hearing after you fire that first round in an enclosed area.

benEzra
February 25, 2009, 12:56 PM
I've posted this elsewhere, but it's applicable here as well, I think:

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)

.410 Bore
28" barrel.............150dB
18 _" barrel.............156.30dB
12 Gauge
28" barrel...............151.50dB
26" barrel...............156.10dB
18 _" barrel.............161.50dB

Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel.....155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel...........................155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel.........................156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel.....................157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel...........................156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel.........................158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel.......................163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake...........170 dB

Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP...........155.0 dB
.32 LONG..........152.4 dB
.32 ACP...........153.5 dB
.380..............157.7 dB
9mm...............159.8 dB
.38 S&W...........153.5 dB
.38 Spl...........156.3 dB
.357 Magnum.......164.3 dB
.41 Magnum........163.2 dB
.44 Spl...........155.9 dB
.45 ACP...........157.0 dB
.45 COLT..........154.7 dB

Yes, a .223 fired in an enclosed space is EXTREMELY loud. So is any defensive-caliber centerfire pistol or 18" barreled 12-gauge. The pressure pulse may be a little longer and it may have a little more bass, but the loudness is comparable. A NFA-short-barrrel 14.5" .223, or a .223 with a muzzle brake, might be louder than a pistol or shotgun, but not an unbraked .223 with a civilian >16" barrel. 7.62x39mm (AK) isn't on the chart, but .30-30 is, and 7.62x39mm is ballistically similar. A typical AK with a 16" barrel will be a bit louder than the 20" .30-30 listed due to the shorter barrel lenght, though. And compare the .223 to the .357 revolver (louder probably because of the barrel-cylinder gap, which vents gas at much higher pressures than at the muzzle, and also has a much shorter barrel than the carbine). Egads.

Moral of the story is, firing pretty much ANY centerfire pistol, rifle, or shotgun indoors is going to be incredibly loud. But the sound levels are all pretty comparable.

FWIW, whenever I go shooting anything other than a BB gun, I wear both good earplugs AND earmuffs.

Duke of Doubt
February 25, 2009, 01:04 PM
Geoff: "ANY firearm will cause permanent hearing damage if fired indoors without ear protection. Most magnum caliber handguns will be even louder than an AR."

Having fired a large-caliber handgun indoors without hearing protection and having suffered no evident loss of hearing (my ears did ring for a day or so), I would disagree. It IS a hazard, but gun owners who keep a set of earmuffs on their headboard in case of home invasion are overplaying it.

Acera
February 25, 2009, 01:04 PM
Do people seriously use the ar-15 for home defense or indoors at all?

Come on do you really think that the noise is a concern in a home defense situation!?

If you are in a situation where you must discharge your firearm in your home, you have more serious things to worry about, like your life and that of your families, than the results of the noise.

A little common sense please.

desidog
February 25, 2009, 01:08 PM
I disagree with the chart above. There's no way that my center fire rifles are within 5dB of my 9mm. The rifles are much louder and the sound carries much further.

As to .223 for HD, it's not ideal both on a size/wielding basis, and unless you have a mansion, the muzzleblast will probably do more damage to the intruder than the projectile will. For short range HD, where you want maximum stopping power, the bigger diameter the bullet, or slug, the better - projectile speed is not an issue. the .223 will put a nice hole all the way through, but won't take the intruder back to the wall with it. Whereas with a 12ga. you'll need to get a spatula, and some paint.

benEzra
February 25, 2009, 02:11 PM
I disagree with the chart above. There's no way that my center fire rifles are within 5dB of my 9mm. The rifles are much louder and the sound carries much further.
A 3dB difference is twice the sound pressure (in terms of energy per square meter). 5dB is over 3 times the energy/square meter. Rifles also produce a longer pressure pulse, and a deeper sound. But the peak pressure levels are not that different.

Yes, the sound from a .223 will carry a bit further than a 9mm, but less than some other handguns.

Also, 9mm barrel length makes a difference, as does barrel length (hot defensive loads will often be somewhat louder than target loads, for example).

kry_90
February 25, 2009, 02:16 PM
the indoor range i go to has a rifle lane all by its self
really its just about the size of a long hallway
when i shoot the ar 15 its LOUD
i wear earplugs and ear muffs
sometimes i still get ringing

General Geoff
February 25, 2009, 02:42 PM
Having fired a large-caliber handgun indoors without hearing protection and having suffered no evident loss of hearing (my ears did ring for a day or so), I would disagree.

Evident loss of hearing ≠ actual loss of hearing. Just because you don't notice your hearing loss does not mean it's not there. ANY exposure of unprotected ears to 150+dB, no matter how fleeting, will cause permanent damage; whether it's slight or serious is dependent on the circumstance. And it is cumulative.

SN13
February 25, 2009, 03:41 PM
Question: Do you use hearing protection when you're Hunting?

When I shoot my 22" .308 outdoors, it rings like the dickens and my hearing is diminished for a few minutes. It's just what happens.

Now, that being said, the tasty deer cutlets and ground venison were worth it! :)

Funderb
February 25, 2009, 03:45 PM
Your ears engage in active motion damping in high noise environments, unfortunately, it take a while for this to happen.

trstafford
February 25, 2009, 03:45 PM
Are you saying that there are some people that do not keep ear muffs or ear plugs on the night stand just in case they hear a bump in the night?

Funderb
February 25, 2009, 03:47 PM
if you wear them to bed you don't even have to worry about hearing that bump in the night!

General Geoff
February 25, 2009, 04:31 PM
My electronic muffs provide me with a tactical advantage, should there be a bump in the night. They not only dampen loud noises, but they amplify very quiet noises. And yes, I keep them in my nightstand.

W.E.G.
February 25, 2009, 04:32 PM
...gun owners who keep a set of earmuffs on their headboard in case of home invasion are overplaying it

The amplified models will actually improve your hearing prior to firing a shot.

Reasonable steps to ensure one's safety, and contribute to the success of the mission are never "overplaying."

bkb0000
February 25, 2009, 04:41 PM
houses are fantastic sound absorbers- shooting in an indoor range is absolutely nothing like shooting in a carpeted, drywalled and textured house with furniture and knockdown ceilings to soak up half the report. i had occasion to discharge 2 rounds from a 3.5" barreled .45 while in a bedroom and suffered only momentary perceivable hearing loss, versus the time i fired 1 round from the same gun without earpro while standing outside on gravel- i couldnt hear for a day.

moooose102
February 25, 2009, 11:21 PM
i am not much of a fan of shooting without earplugs if i can help it. but you have to THINK about the case at hand. if there is a b.g. in your house, are you going to give up one of your senses? not likely. it is way better to live to see another day, even if you loose your hearing than to die in your own home because you couldnt hear the b.g. coming up your stairs. as for our troops, if i were there, i certainly would not be wearing earplugs, for the same reason stated above, only trippled. better to come home deaf, than in a body bag!

usmc1371
February 26, 2009, 04:12 AM
I was issued ear plugs both times I was deployed to Iraq. Nice for training but the times when you really need to shoot you also really need to be able to hear the people around you. There is nothing friendly about friendly fire. Hearing loss happens even when you don't think it is. My hearing is crap compared to the day I joined the marines. I have a hard time hearing high pitch sounds and my ears ring some times out of the blue like I just shot a rifle. Usuly when I am watching tv or something like that.
A couple years ago I stood right next to my little bro when he fired his 338-378 with factory muzzle brake and I spent a week elk hunting with no hearing in my left ear. And it felf like i got punched in the face. I wear ear plugs AND muffs when I am target shooting now to save whats left of my hearing but when hunting the one or two rounds I fire don't seem to make my ears ring but i think its cause I am all excited about smoking down bambi.

PTK
February 26, 2009, 05:07 AM
Here's why I love my silencer and keep this rifle as shown for HD...

Video Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvQUhzMHk98&feature=channel_page)

Ranb
February 26, 2009, 10:22 AM
Big E, when you say "Sounds like someone has sensitive ears...", what it actually means is that he has good hearing. Anyone who thinks they are getting used to loud noises is actually losing their hearing. Always use a good silencer or other hearing protection.

Ranb

benEzra
February 26, 2009, 12:08 PM
the indoor range i go to has a rifle lane all by its self
really its just about the size of a long hallway
when i shoot the ar 15 its LOUD
i wear earplugs and ear muffs
sometimes i still get ringing
I've shot a .357 revolver in an indoor range. Loudest thing I've ever shot, I think.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 26, 2009, 12:12 PM
The answer is, only if things go horribly horribly wrong, but yes.

From the Db table, looks like .45 Colt would make a darn good home defense round, loaded to cowboy or "standard" loadings. Relatively easy on the ears, effective manstopper. Bet it'd be downright quiet from a lever action carbine (relatively speaking). Maybe my Puma 92 16" .45 colt levergun is the ultimate home defense gun after all. :)

jpatterson
February 26, 2009, 01:23 PM
Might have been mentioned and I hope most people do this, but *always* double up on ear-pro when shooting indoors. I lost something like 80% of the hearing my left ear permanently from an indoor range, and I'm only twenty!

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 26, 2009, 02:03 PM
Sorry to hear that - I'll do you one better. I double up outdoors, and I won't shoot at all indoors (unless I'm shooting rimfire, and there's no one on either side of me with .458 win mags.

orionhawk
February 26, 2009, 04:51 PM
I use foam plugs indoors or out (pressure changes from muffs make me nauseous), and have never had a problem. then again, my hearing wasn't great before I ever fired my first round.

RP88
February 26, 2009, 05:09 PM
all my other guns put my ARs to shame - from my AK to my Mossberg 12ga. to the Mosin

I like to double up on hearing protection when possible, if only to help with concentration. An outdoor firing line is not as unnerving as a congested indoor firing line.

scythefwd
February 26, 2009, 08:08 PM
Yes, it is loud. I fired my m16 at a nbc range with one earplug out (it fell out, my bad for not having it in better). My right ear rang for days. I still have tenitus in my ears (I have also fired a 9mm in a indoor 15x20 concrete room with no protection). For home defense, I'd rather be def than dead. Any other time, I won't fire anything larger than a .22 without plugs.

badbadtz560
February 26, 2009, 08:22 PM
so.. one underlying question that hasn't been answered.. what do SWAT team and such close quarters ppl do about it? Do they all wear earplugs for combat?

desidog
February 26, 2009, 11:15 PM
so.. one underlying question that hasn't been answered.. what do SWAT team and such close quarters ppl do about it? Do they all wear earplugs for combat?

one word: Suppressors.

In the next few years, you'll see more lawsuits from deaf former tactical gov't guys.

People in Europe understand this; and it is considered bad form to shoot at public ranges without a can; but in the USA they are considered evil by the majority...."If you have a silencer, you must want to kill somebody." or some crap like that...from people who have never fired, or even held, a gun.

desidog
February 26, 2009, 11:17 PM
Also, i should mention, that if your entry team are all employing suppressors, and you hear shots...that means you're being engaged.

dispatch55126
February 26, 2009, 11:35 PM
Note to self-when clearing a BP revolver in the rain, standing in the summer kitchen to stay dry will result in permanent hearing loss.

Anyone wants to guess why I bring this up?:banghead:

WNTFW
February 27, 2009, 12:06 AM
One place I shoot is a borrow pit, even a .22 is too loud.
Indoors is loud.
Outdoors under a cover is loud.
15 Garands is loud.
15 F-Class rifles is loud.
Just one or 2 rifles out in the open seems tame. I still wear hearing protection.

I always wear earplugs & earmuffs. The earplugs help if your earmuffs come
off or loose. I even wear them working in the target pits. I've never regretted having too much protection. I have regretted too little.

nekwah
February 27, 2009, 12:14 AM
Have shot many a .243 or .223 or .30/06 without hearing protection and dont seem to have a huge problem but i think my ears should be better than they are for as young as i am. Might catch up to me when im old. My great uncle was a macine gunner in those big mombers in wwII and he cant hear a thing now, my grandpa served with the artillery in Korea and blames it for his bad hearing. I think wearing the ear protection is a good idea but i honestly dont think it would be a bother at all to shoot a couple times indoors. Ears might ring for awhile but no serious problems i wouldnt think.

butters
February 27, 2009, 12:10 PM
I've never shot indoors. I've never shot an AR-15 either for that matter although I just bought one 2 days ago. When I shoot I use a pair of cheap ear muffs and sometimes double up with foam plugs. Depends on what we are shooting and the mood I am in.

I did shoot a S&W 9mm from under a covered porch once many moons ago without ear protection and that was loud. My buddy played a joke (not a very funny one) and fired a 30-06 with a blank in it in his bedroom. That was the loudest thing I have ever heard. My ears were cashed in for 2 days.

I think that with adequate ear protection shooting indoors or outdoors shouldn't really be an issue.

FreuderLocks
February 27, 2009, 12:12 PM
I fired my AR15 once outdoors with no hearing protection. It hurt. Ill never do it again.
-FL

If you enjoyed reading about "ppl use ar-15 indoors?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!