[gunsmith]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-04-tigerattack-roy_x.htm
Posted 10/4/2003 1:41 AM Updated 10/4/2003 4:25 AM
Tiger attacks illusionist during 'Siegfried & Roy' show
LAS VEGAS (AP) — A tiger attacked magician Roy Horn of duo "Siegfried & Roy" during a Friday night performance, leaving the superstar illusionist in critical condition, authorities said.

Las Vegas magician Roy Horn of the 'Siegfried and Roy' show.
By Eric Jamison, AP

An audience member at The Mirage hotel-casino said the white tiger lunged at Horn, who tried to beat the animal off with a microphone.




microphone? against a tiger? sorry but if I had anything less then a 4570 I would be outta there!

[jercamp45]

Yes, even a .45 auto is better than a microphone! though a tad light for tigers....
But then again, he was in the cage with him, and how smart is that. No problems for hundreds of shows(that I have heard about anyway), but a tiger is still a tiger and a human is still FOOD!
I hope he comes out OK....it was all over the local news of course(something to talk about).....but would he want to get back in the cage with the same tiger, if he recovers?
I would not be found there in the first place...though I once visited an alligator pit when a very young 'gator wrestler (9 I think) was showing off and got bit by a small gator. We were waiting for assistance from his larger(though not necessarily smarter) fellow wrestlers. Not sure why I jumped in, to keep the other small gators at bay, I guess....he was just a kid after all. I am sure they would not have liked it if I pulled out my Officer's and started blasting young charging gators!
Which brings me too....if there were armed security officer's at Roy's side...would they be allowed to shoot the tiger? Which is more valuable....to the Mirage?
Jercamp45

[gunsmith]

those tigers are expensive...

[ysr_racer]

He got what he deserved. Poking a big cat with a stick isn't to smart of an idea. Wild animals should be wild.

[Art Eatman]

History is full of stories of folks who got hurt when messing with big cats, whether the cats were part of a circus act or "pets".

I guess we oughta add the big cats to my father's truism, "If you mess with horses and motorcycles long enough, one of'em will bit you."

Back in the middle '50s, there was a guy who drove his Peugeot convertible around Paris with two or three big cats as passengers. Definitely got attention! A couple of years later, after I got back to the States, I ran across a news squib that one of the cats had killed him...

Art

[El Tejon]

It's . . . . an . . . . animal! To be shot, not played with.:uhoh:

The news report I heard this morning on the radio here was that he was posting a poll on THR regarding "Which pistol for Tiger?" when the animal gnawed on his throat.:p

[Henry Bowman]

"I'm tellin' ya, Tony. I'm sick and tired of this. If he pokes me with that stick one more time . . . I'm going to rip his throat out!" :what:

[Futo Inu]

There's a lesson to be learned here (about posting threads, that is):

If your topic is only marginally gun-related, or not at all, you stand a much better chance of having your thread remain open if you are creative, like gunsmith, and use something like "tiger vs UNARMED man", as opposed to some who didn't really think it through, and chose for their subject line "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Off Topic, But ..........." :)

Hope the magician pulls through.

Henry Bowman - that's a Far Side caption if I've ever heard one - ha.

[C.R.Sam]

Maby complacency.

Similar to experienced person having an ND.

Perhaps the cat was in a foul mood for some reason and Roy allowed the "The show must go on" syndrome to override his experienced judgement.

Not uncommon in sports and occupations that entail high levels of danger.

Sam

[4v50 Gary]

Magician? Tiger? Reminds me of Bullwinkle trying to pull a rabbit out of his hat and coming up with a tiger.

[standingbear]

i suppose if i played dead..it would still eat me anyways.if i ran,id only be tired when it ate me.here kitty kitty kitty..

[Baba Louie]

Trying to get back On Topic...

I wonder if they had to SHOOT the Cat with a tranqualizer GUN backstage... or if Monte' decided he was done being bopped over the head with a LIVE microphone in front of his adoring audience and did the catch and release thing on his own.

The crowd got a show, albeit not the one they expected to see.

Hope The ROY is OK.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Oct-04-Sat-2003/news/22302613.html

The cat was not one of the ones Roy slept with as a cub. The ones they breed in LV are kept as house guests at the famous S&R house where Roy has special cages for them in his bedroom while they're very young.

I'd definitely add a Tranq Gun to the backstage equipment from now on.

Adios

[WT]

A few years ago the officers from NJ Fish and Game shot and killed a Bengal tiger in the wilds of south New Jersey. Used a .308 rifle. Tiger weighed 450 lb.

Bet you guys didn't know Bengal tigers were indigenous to NJ?

[DorGunR]

Lion Tamer
----------

A circus was visiting this small town in Southern Alabama. Turns out the lion tamer comes down with the flu.
So the circus owner thought it would be a great idea to advertise for a lion tamer.

Only two people show up. One was an older man, dressed in a pair of jungle utilities, the other was a great
looking blond with a drop-dead figure.

The circus owner says "What the heck, I'll try you both out. Who wants to be first?" The older man says,
"I've always been a gentleman. Let her go first."

The young lady goes into the cage with the lion. She takes off her coat and is wearing a dental floss bikini.
Well, this lion lets out a hell of a roar, rolls over on his back and starts licking her body.

The circus owner thought that was just great. So he says to the old guy, "Can you do that?"

He replied, "I can if you get that lion out of the cage."

[444]

This is not the first incident of this kind with this show.

About 12 years ago (something like that), another tiger grabbed another guy by the neck. The blood vessels were severed and he stroked out. He died a few days later.
I happened to be working that day and heard the call on the radio. 421, man bitten by a tiger.

Obviously the danger involved is what makes shows like this an attraction. Shooting the tiger during the attack would be a waste of time. The minute the tiger struck at his neck, the damage was done.
You mess with the bull, you are going to get the horns.

[Waitone]

I heard a report which said S&R are largely responsible for the survival of the species. Seems they raised the cat from kitties by hand.

Goes to show there is no gratitude when it comes to animals.

[Justin]

:scrutiny:

Yep

Definately huntin' forum material.

[toro]

I heard Jack Hanna on TV, he works with wild animals. He said a wild animal is just like a loaded gun. It can go off at any time. He said it was what Roy loved to do and he knew he was in danger. He said the tigers were never doped and that is why it was so dangerous.

Jack mentioned being in Africa and seeing a lion jump on a huge buffalo and kill him in only 12 seconds by grabbing him by the throat. He said Roy is lucky to be alive because some cats will crush the skull. He said he may not live, if he does he will be on the mend for a long time

Mrs. Toro


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Isaiah 41:13
For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, fear not; I will help thee.

[Shane]

Of all the wild cats, tigers seem to be the most prone to snapping and turning on their trainers. All wild animals are unpredictable of course, but some are more so than others. Most importantly, the SIZE of the tiger inflicts a lot more damage than a smaller cat would.

In contrast, the least likely wild cat to turn on their handlers seems to be the Cheetah. Most people I've talked with that work with wild cats agree that Cheetahs are typically the easiest of the wild cats to work with. By nature, they are timid and relatively docile (when compared to most other wild cats). Even with that said, with ANY wild animal one can never be certain or too safe.

I know one thing, you'll never get me to interact with "trained" lions or tigers, not for a million dollars! You can NOT control a wild animals instinct, you can only surpress it to a degree.

[Preacherman]

Shane, a little-known fact is that genetically speaking, cheetah are more dog than cat! They have non-retractable claws, which is a dead giveaway for a start... I've worked with a cheetah breeding program in South Africa, and in many ways, they're just like cats: but they're the only big cats that can be trained and will stay trained. All other big cats are likely to "lose" their training at some point in their lives, and revert to their "wild" nature. The cheetah, being more dog than cat, is reliably and permanently trainable. That's why in days of yore, when kings and emperors had "hunting cats", they were cheetahs.

[444]

Can you imagine being a witness to this from the audience ?

[H&Hhunter]

Tigers are some seriously powerfull animals. I've watched a tiger (at a wildlife park) eat a steers hind leg. He bit through the femur crushing it into little pieces. That's a whole bunch of bite!!

I'm guessing this tiger was just playing with his handler and got a little out of control.

[Shane]

Shane, a little-known fact is that genetically speaking, cheetah are more dog than cat! They have non-retractable claws, which is a dead giveaway for a start... I've worked with a cheetah breeding program in South Africa, and in many ways, they're just like cats: but they're the only big cats that can be trained and will stay trained. All other big cats are likely to "lose" their training at some point in their lives, and revert to their "wild" nature. The cheetah, being more dog than cat, is reliably and permanently trainable. That's why in days of yore, when kings and emperors had "hunting cats", they were cheetahs.

That probably explains why male cheetahs sometimes form mini packs of 2 or 3 brother (or sometimes unrelated) cats--I think the official term is "coalition"? They are pretty much the second most social cat, behind the lion. One of the Dog Fancy Magazines I have even has a brief one paragraph story about a Cheetah and a Labrador that live together and get along fine--not really possible with any other wild cat species.

I know that Cheetahs have more dog characterics than all other big cats, but I didn't know that they were genetically more dog. Thats great to find that out, thanks for posting that.

I've always liked Cheetahs because of their good temperment.

[444]

I am getting reports via instant messaging that more of the story is coming out. It seems Roy is in very bad shape. According to my friend, he went into cardiac arrest twice today and was successfully resusitated. Reports are that he has spinal cord damage in addition to major damage to the critical blood vessels in the neck that supply the brain with blood. His chances appear to be grim.

[BluesBear]

I remember the first time I saw a real life Thompson Submachine Gun.

I was 8 and my Scout troop went to the Circus. We were sitting, in the bleachers, right next to the Circus Band. When the Lion Tamer came out a guy sat down between the band and me. He was holding a real Thompson and he never took his eyes off of the three lions.
I must have counted the six holes down the side of the magazine a dozen times.

When the act was over, and the Lions left, so did he. I remember when he stood up to leave he looked at me, he must have noticed my interest. He just smiled and said, "Yeah, it's real."

[45King]

According to what I heard, it wouldn't have mattered if anyone had a weapon. One of the tigers knocked Roy down, and as soon as he hit the ground, the tiger bit. This is typical cat behavior when a "dominant" entity loses dominance. (Ever watched a cat "play" with a mouse/bird/lizard?) In order to be able to stop the bite, someone would have to have inhumanly quick reflexes and supreme marksmanship abilities. The whole thing occured in just a brief instant of time.

[Art Eatman]

Back when mountains weren't quite as steep wuz a magazine called "Argosy". I remember an article about a couple in New Mexico who had a cheetah. They'd go coyote hunting with it. The article mentioned the dog-behavior characteristics.

Saw in today's news where some NYC guy showed up to get some stitches for a "dog bite". Checking in to his story, turned out he had a 400-lb tiger in his apartment...

From bits and pieces of reading, through the years, it seems that only the margay will exhibit domestic-cat behavior throughout its lifetime with little or no danger. It is one of the smallest of the wild cats, however; not much bigger than a typical domestic cat.

Can you imagine the audience reaction in today's world if a guy with a Thompson sat near the Cat Act? That'd give a whole new meaning to the word "tension". :D

Art

[C.R.Sam]

Domestic cat will bite and claw when in a foul mood tho.

Only reason they not considered dangerous is they not all that big.

Sam

[Shane]

Domestic cat will bite and claw when in a foul mood tho.

Which is exactly why I HATE most housecats. I say most because there has been the rare exceptions I've known that have been gentle their whole lives. But most housecats I've known thoughout the years will not hesitate to bite or scratch when in a bad mood, or when they tire of being pet.

I've never been bitten by a dog simply for paying attention to it. I know there are bad dogs out there that hurt people (usually the result of poor training or bad breeding), but they seem to be the exception to the rule.

[WvaBill]

On Fox News this morning they showed a 400 lb. tiger being taken out of a Manhattan:eek: apartment(Harlem). There was a uniformed southpaw officer w/ a shotgun shoeing excellent trigger-finger discipline.

[444]

What I want to know is what this clown was using for a litter box in the apartment ?

[WvaBill]

Believe it or not, the news anchors said he had a 200 lb. alligator. Will they take care of the litter?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99142,00.html

It was a caymen...like a croc.

[444]

I bet that place smelled great.

I wonder if he had to kick the croc out of the bathtub so he could take a shower ?

[45King]

Art Eatman wrote:Back when mountains weren't quite as steep wuz a magazine called "Argosy". I remember an article about a couple in New Mexico who had a cheetah. They'd go coyote hunting with it. The article mentioned the dog-behavior characteristics.

I remember Argosy. 5 will get you 10 that the article's author was Daniel P. Mannix. I have his book A Sporting Chance: Unusual Methods of Hunting. In it he details a coyote hunt with his pet cheetah, Rani. Very cool animal. He also used to hunt pigeons with his pet ocelot, Tiba. IIRC, Rani had to eventually be put down as a result of injuries he received on a coyote hunt. The 'yote was running from Rani and ducked into an arroyo (sp?) Rani was moving too fast and ran into the gulley wall, injuring his spine. Rani recovered, but when he got older, his back put him in a lot of pain. A shame. Mannix indicated that Rani never gave him a problem.

FWIW: last thing I heard about Horn, he wasn't expected to survive, and Siegfried is telling people who have worked for them for the last 30 years to find other jobs. Seems that S&R have a contract with each other that states that they do all shows together or not at all.

[Dr.Rob]

First off forget that "S&R savedthe tiger nonsense. White tigers are genetic offshoots that rrarely survive in the wild. Not only are they melanin deficient white tigers are nearly blind. Those pretty blue eyes don't see near as well as their melanin rich brothers.

Wild animals are still mostly wild, and irregardless of how you snuggle up to them as kittens, they still grow up to be 400 pound predators that think they run the roost. One of those days the dominance display can turn fatal. All animal handlers know this an accept the risk.

I recall seeing old photos of Cheetahs as pets for upper class brits, and even further back in ancient Egypt, the cheeta was trained as a hunting dog.

Back to Tigers and firearms. When I saw Ringling Bros Circus in my youth, the lion tamer still carried a pistol. Unlike later acts, where they would draw the pistol and shoot it at the floor in a "mock" show of the big cats being bad, the pistol was real.

Traditional Tiger pistols remain the "Howdah", a .577 ball on a black powder charge meant to be used if a wounded tiger climed into your Howdah, the saddle on the back of an elephant. Other wise known as your last ditch or "hmm smedly it appears the bachelor of pnjab has decided to take up residence in your lap, old chum, kindly dispatch him post haste and let's get back to the club for a gin and tonic, wot?"

[Double Naught Spy]

In general, cats do not 'tame' well. Domestic cats have countless generations of 'domestication' and even then are still quite autonomous.

What disturbed me about the event of the cat attacking Roy was the fact that Roy reacted so poorly as an expert on cats and cat training. For carnivores in general and especially for cats, neck grabs are typical and efficient. What is strange is that Roy knew the situation went to hell and didn't cover the one vital area the cat was most likely to attack, his neck.

Whether it is trained animal routines like S&R or idiots who keep pet 'gators and big cats in apartments, what has to be understood is that the problem is NOT with the animals but the dumb humans keeping them.

What many folks seem to forget is that these animals are predators. What is especially frightening is that folks like S&R seem to think they have somehow mastered nature and why this is frightening is that in nature, humans are food for big cats. Go figure.

[gun-fucious]

i heard on the radio that the cat first bit his arm
so he bonked it on the head with his microphone
then the kitty got serious

[Shane]

I recall seeing old photos of Cheetahs as pets for upper class brits, and even further back in ancient Egypt, the cheeta was trained as a hunting dog.

While I don't think its legal (due to their being a threatened or endangered species), I've seen documentaries that show pet Cheetahs in Africa in present day times.

[Dr.Rob]

I saw a really neat old photo of some muttonchopped old grandpa back from Africa giving his granddaughter the gift a of a cheetah. It's a little taller than she is.

Unsupervised, I wouldn't let the cheetah near a kid. But the practice was pretty common in the UK at the turn of the century. So common that Britain changed the law in the 1960's forcing people to register and properly store their cats. Rather than face a crappy law, and expensive up-to-code pens, many people just turned their cats loose. This is no doubt the basis of the legend of England's "wild cats" that we discussed a few months ago.

[C.R.Sam]

What is especially frightening is that folks like S&R seem to think they have somehow mastered nature and why this is frightening is that in nature, humans are food for big cats. Go figure. Or...
They realized the danger and not only accepted it but used it to maintain a really big meal ticket for many years.

Sam

[Shane]

Unsupervised, I wouldn't let the cheetah near a kid.

I wouldn't let a Yorkshire Terrier near a kid unsupervised--small animals can bite too. Any animal has the potential to be dangerous around a kid.

Obviously, the bigger the animal is, the more damage it can do. Even so, even a rat dog can kill a defenseless baby, or badly injure a small child.

[roscoe]

a little-known fact is that genetically speaking, cheetah are more dog than cat! They have non-retractable claws, which is a dead giveaway for a start...

Well, not exactly. Genetically, and evolutionarily, all cats are equally cat, and none are any more closely related to dogs. Somewhere along the way, cheetas just evolved claws for their sprinting hunt technique. Kind of like sprinter's cleats.

Now hyaenas, they look more like dogs, but are actually more closely related to cats.

Sorry if this sounds pedantic. I have very little firearms advice to offer, so I try to do what I can in other areas.