Mil Surplus Groups


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Bill B.
February 25, 2009, 05:51 PM
I spent the afternoon at a local range and shot a buddy's Mauser M48 a bit. I would guess our groups were running in the 4 to 5 MOA range. I was just curious if some of you guys would post some 5 shot 100 yard groups you have shot with the factory open sights. They can be Mosin, Mauser, Enfield, 03 etc. I would just like to see how you did with out glass and if you have a favorite Mil Surplus iron sight type feel free to share.

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Lovesbeer99
February 25, 2009, 08:31 PM
I have an m48, a vz24 and recently sold my 24/47. I really enjoy shooting with open sights so I love these guns, but even with glass I have not been able to shoot better than 4-5 in groups with surplus ammo.

On the other hand with my handloads, I've shot around 2 inches off of sandbags with glass and irons at 100 yards.

To improve your sight picture, but still keep it iron, check out mojo sights for mausers.

Enjoy -

Bill B.
February 25, 2009, 09:00 PM
but even with glass I have not been able to shoot better than 4-5 in groups with surplus ammo.


Glad to hear its just not us getting the 5 MOA groups. We were shooting surplus ammo also and I don't even know from what era. Both me and my Buddy wear glasses and were attempting to use a 6 o'clock hold below an orange dot for an aming point. The M48 had a pretty good trigger and we were using both a front and rear rest. We sure wern't sniper caliber though .......

latisimusd
February 25, 2009, 10:24 PM
Here's a pic of my recent Mil-surp 1903A3 at 100yds, not all original, new barrel and fairly accurate for an mid-century age guy shooting through irons. 6:00 hold
Something real sweet about old Mil-surp rifles:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/ARfun/1903A3a.jpg

elmerfudd
February 25, 2009, 10:40 PM
I don't have any pics, but I've found the Yugo 8mm surplus to be about 4 MOA ammo and even the "sniper" stuff doesn't seem much better.

7.62x54R Czech silvertip seems to group around 3 MOA out of my M39 while 7N1 groups just under 2MOA. That's with iron sights so the ammo might be capable of more. Even the Albanian surplus I had did pretty well. The worst was some brass cased surplus on stripper clips, (Bulgarian I think). Accuracy was around 3 MOA, but I had lots of burst primers and split necks.

I can also keep GP11 in just under 2 MOA with my K31 with iron sights. GP11 is some primo ammo.

I've shot South African surplus and Portuguese surplus 7.62 NATO out of my Remington LTR with a 10x scope and they both grouped about in a little under 1.5" at 100 yards. The Port did a little better than the SA.

mongo4567
February 25, 2009, 10:58 PM
I don't have any pics. The K31 and M96 can both bump 1 MOA if I do my part, usually closer to 2.

The 98/22 and 03A3 will shoot almost 2 MOA pretty consistently.

I don't seem to do as well with the shorter rifles.

mavracer
February 25, 2009, 11:29 PM
here's a group from a plate match in another thread.
it's with an 03A3 and greek surplus
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/mavracer/P8310144.jpg

Bill B.
February 26, 2009, 08:03 AM
Thanks for the pictures of those 03 groups! That's some good shooting .....much better than we were doing! I guess a little practice will go a long way with his M48 as it was the first time either of us had shot it. He also has a Mosin that we need to compare it too. If his Mosin shoots as well as one my father owned years ago it will group also. Dad was a better shot than me however!

Thingster
February 26, 2009, 12:45 PM
Something you will definitely notice is that different rifles like different ammos, especially when it comes to surplus.

I have a mosin that shoots well, but the difference between the surplus ammo it likes least and what it likes most is 2 MOA. There's some copper wash stuff that comes in a white cardboard box, it shoots about 4" regardless of the shooter, it's just the limit of the ammo/gun relationship. There's some other surplus that comes in oil paper and is tied up with a piece of string- it shoots 1.75-2" all day long. Reloading I can shed another 1/2" pretty easily.

If you can find different surplus ammos for the rifle, try them out. find out what the gun itself likes.

Funderb
February 26, 2009, 12:47 PM
I can get 1moa out of my yugo mauser these days with the new stock.
and glass, but it is a cheap bushnell.

_N4Z_
February 26, 2009, 08:08 PM
Oh ya, an invite to show off some of my handy work. I accept! :D

Here are some pics of various surplus thru my 1942 Mosin M39 B.

Bulgarian heavyball leadcore 1950's

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/b-3.jpg

Hungarian heavyball steelcore 1970's

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/firstdayout002.jpg

More HungarianHB steel @ 300 yards. These shot thru my 1942 Mosin M39 Sako.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/m39take2015.jpg


I now handload for these rifle and they typically print between 1 and 2.5 inches at 100 yards. The B barrel seems the more accurate of the two. Still looking for that magic loading. :rolleyes:

amwdc
February 26, 2009, 08:47 PM
this is a picture of my last shooting session with my 1943 long branch lee enfield number 4 mark 1 * and my ww2 era vz-24 8 mm with a horrible bore at 75 yards

target : http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/amwdc/HPIM1780.jpg

rifles :http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/amwdc/HPIM1668.jpg

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/amwdc/HPIM1710.jpg

mudriver
February 26, 2009, 10:59 PM
I usually only shoot handloads, but it seems I can't do much better than 2 MOA with open sights at 100 yds. My Russian SKS will do that with Wolf. I think almost all my milsurps: Mauser, Enfield, Mosins, Garand, etc. all shoot about the same which means they shoot better than me!!!!!

Bill B.
February 27, 2009, 08:28 AM
it seems I can't do much better than 2 MOA with open sights at 100 yds.

When I went to wearing glasses my iron sight shooting went downhill. I can still shoot peeps a bit better. A buddy suggested one of the Enfields with peeps to me and that may be my next purchase. Thanks for posting those groups! Looks like the Mosin & the 03 groups are leading the rest at present.:)

The Deer Hunter
February 27, 2009, 09:21 AM
Someone send me a link where I can find those super accurate Mosins.

lionking
February 27, 2009, 09:37 PM
ooohhhhh a thread near and dear to my interests.This thread is a good start to see some people posting their "best of".

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=387622


Last year can be considered in large part my year of "the milsurp".I bought alot of them last year some of which I have only shot a couple times so far to test.But doing so I with my capabilities came to the conclusion that normal accuracy with milsurps using iron sights with factory or surplus ammo in general do 2inch to 4 inch depending on the condition of the particular gun.

As to my favorite sight type,probably the M190a3 and Garand sights,though Mauser style I did similar size groups with also.

There are just many variables,I won that milsurp contest with my Enfield N04,nice tight group,but the group I did before that one was alot wider why?Because I wasn't focusing on the front sight like I should and just didn't feel in the groove until I forced myself to with the second 5 shot group.

So far my Yugo 24/47 does on average 2 inch groups at 100yds with S&B ammo when rested,I don't think that is bad at all in fact I consider that good.Seems to me if you can get 1 inch groups from a milsurp with non personal loaded ammo consistantly that would be a exceptional rifle and you a exceptional shooter.

Exposure
February 27, 2009, 10:05 PM
I never miss a chance to show off what my K31 can do! Granted this is with a Tasco Varmint scope and my handloads but for a rifle that is over 50 years old I think it is darn good shooting.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/paulj1973/K31tightgroup.jpg


And the old girl herself. I refinished the stock as it looked little better than a piece of firewood when I got it.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/paulj1973/K31.jpg

lionking
February 27, 2009, 10:09 PM
Some examples from some of my various milsurps,honestly some of them I haven't even shot enough to really see just what is what ,next time I might better,might do worse,but overall with stock iron sights getting 2inch or slightly more group at 100yds seems my average,sometimes worse sometimes better depending.

the black bulls on the target is 6 inches diameter for reference

click to enlarge

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/Argentine%201909%20excellent/th_015.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/Argentine%201909%20excellent/?action=view&current=015.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/brazilian%201908%20excellent%20grade/th_041.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/brazilian%201908%20excellent%20grade/?action=view&current=041.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/carcano/th_008.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/carcano/?action=view&current=008.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/cilean%201895/th_092.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/cilean%201895/?action=view&current=092.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/czech%20vz%2023/th_027.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/czech%20vz%2023/?action=view&current=027.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/enfields/th_075.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/enfields/?action=view&current=075.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/fin%20m39%20sky/th_012.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/fin%20m39%20sky/?action=view&current=012.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/garands/th_049.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/garands/?action=view&current=049.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/k31/th_018.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/k31/?action=view&current=018.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/m1917%20winchester/th_007.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/m1917%20winchester/?action=view&current=007.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/mosin%2091/th_057.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/mosin%2091/?action=view&current=057.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/persian%20mauser%202/th_029.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/persian%20mauser%202/?action=view&current=029.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/persian/th_073.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/persian/?action=view&current=073.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/swedish%201915%20m96%20gustav/th_016.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/swedish%201915%20m96%20gustav/?action=view&current=016.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/swedish%201916%20m96%20gustav/th_015.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/swedish%201916%20m96%20gustav/?action=view&current=015.jpg)

SlamFire1
February 28, 2009, 05:23 AM
Without a doubt you could shrink the groups on your M48 if the action was bedded. I purchased a couple of M48's, M24's when they were $150.00 rifles. I found that each of my Yugos had awful stock bedding. It took just a little two part epoxy on the front and rear lugs, plus making sure the action was not canted and the barrel was centered to almost half the group size.

With surplus ammunition these rifles will shoot around 3 MOA. Maybe a little better, maybe a little worse.

Of the military surplus ammunition out there, Swiss and Swede ammo is exceptionally good. I have not shot any 8mm surplus that was as good as that stuff. Most 8mm goes bang, and that is about that.

So with the awful bullets you are going to find in 8 mm surplus, 4 to 5 MOA, even with a bedded action, might be about all you are going to get.

I shot the lower target with decent, but not match ammo out of a rack Grade Garand. This group, around 4 inches, would be typical of what you would expect from an as issued Garand.

A bolt rifle will do a little better.

The general accuracy criteria for a military rifle is around 3 MOA. That is good enough for military applications.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M1Garand19roundsprone5925621.jpg

Bill B.
February 28, 2009, 07:59 AM
I never miss a chance to show off what my K31 can do! Granted this is with a Tasco Varmint scope and my handloads but for a rifle that is over 50 years old I think it is darn good shooting.




I have heard stories about the K31 for years and their accuracy being legendary. That's great shooting!

I shot the lower target with decent, but not match ammo out of a rack Grade Garand. This group, around 4 inches, would be typical of what you would expect from an as issued Garand.


I shot a Buddy's Garand some last year and have seen his targets numerous times. The target you posted could have been cloned from those he shot, I think he told me that his Garand was a CMP rebuild but I had always been curious as to what the Garand was capable of when they were new.

Thanks to all for posting both their guns & groups and information. It's great to still see these old rifles still being shot and enjoyed; some I am sure most likely 80 years after they have been built. :)

lionking
March 9, 2009, 01:51 AM
Took out the Yugo 24/47 and M1903a3 today.The '03 has a muzzle wear of 3,so it is not a newish barrel,and it shoots accordingly.But surprise to me is testing it this time with two 9 and 10 shot volley's,even the lot and year of manufacture of the HXP ammo made a difference in accuracy and specially the impact area of the group.:confused:

Makes it hard for me to know my rifle is dialed in at center when even the same type of ammo but different lot changes everything so it seems.:confused:


With the Yugo,here is what I did with S&B ammo.Was going to try PP ammo also,but the range was closing so I ran out of time.But using PP ammo last time in it,it seemed to actually shoot a little better than S&B and more in center which normally S&B seems to do better in my other rifles.

So wow,when it comes to accuracy,there really are alot of potential things that effect it so it seems to me.


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/1903a3/th_106.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/1903a3/?action=view&current=106.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/yugo%2024-47/th_109.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/yugo%2024-47/?action=view&current=109.jpg)

Lovesbeer99
March 9, 2009, 08:28 AM
Had my M48, with 2x scout scope, out this weekend. With handloads I'm shooting 1.5-2 inches consistantly at 100 yards. With milsurp ammo, still 4-5 inch groups.

Brass for handloads is expensive though. I've heard in the past people would rechamber to 8mm-06 so that you need a new barrel, but you can use much less expensive 36-06 brass. I'll bet the cost to rechamber is less than a rebarrel. I might do this on my vz24 which needs a new barrel.

Loggerlee
March 9, 2009, 05:52 PM
I fired a CMP garand in a match,I got about 4" groups offhand,and with me being the one shooting that was pretty good.

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