Triple seven troubles


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Guvnor
February 25, 2009, 08:33 PM
Im having trouble getting consistent ignition in a hawken using 777 FFg. Usually the first few shots at the range go off just fine. But then I start getting hang fires. Today I even had a shot fail to go off, athough it did fire when I tried again with a new cap. I do a quick pass with a brass bore brush and run a spit patch after every 2 or 3 shots. Im using regular remington #11 caps.

Is this problem due to the triple seven or am I not cleaning enough between shots? Is triple seven geared more toward inlines? I did buy some Goex and will give that a try soon to see if I get better resuts.

Any thoughts?

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Smokin_Gun
February 25, 2009, 09:12 PM
You have the answer and the solution in hand ... get Some Goex Black powder, nothin' works better than the real thing.
I have had from poor to damaging results usin' 777 ffg. use it as revolver powder. Broke one...
I don't use but Black Powder afore and after a half pound of 777 ffg substitute. Stuff wasn't consistant or as accurate as BP. Sometimes I'd get squibs usin it.

jbkebert
February 25, 2009, 09:34 PM
Running through a in-line rifle i found that 777 seems to be the most consistant that I have tried. I does foul up pretty quickly but a spit patch between shots and never a problem.

mykeal
February 25, 2009, 09:51 PM
The ignition temperature of 777 is 750 deg, compared to about 450 deg for real black powder. In addition, 777 is sensitive to compression in that it will produce inconsistent results (including FTF's) if compressed too much. It is indeed intended for inline ignition systems (it is very unreliable in flintlocks); several people report using 'magnum' caps is necessary for consistent results even in those guns.

One solution, if you've already invested in 777, is to duplex your loads: load about 10 gr of real black first, then the remainder of the load with 777.

denster
February 25, 2009, 10:37 PM
Mykeal hi it on the head. 777 is great stuff just don't compress it. Revolver, rifle or cartridge just have the bullet/ball just touching the powder. Result consistent velocity very little fouling. Compress it like black powder and the result is widely varying pressure and velocity and fouling like you wouldn't believe.

grimjaw
February 25, 2009, 11:19 PM
mykeal, forgive my ignorance. If it's not a trigonometric ratio right now, I can't see how it works. :)

How would mixing the powders change the formula normally used to compute the load of 777 vs regular black powder?

jm

arcticap
February 26, 2009, 01:11 AM
To find the black powder equivalent of a load of 777, just multiply the amount of 777 by 15% (.15) and add that number to the original amount of 777.
Then add that number to the 10 grains of black powder to get the grand total equivalent for the duplex load.

For instance, to find the equivalent of 60 grains of 777, multiply 60 times 15% (.15) which equals 9 grains. Then add the 9 grains to 60 which means that 60 grains of 777 equals 69 of black powder.
Then add in the 10 grain catalyst charge of black powder and the grand total for the load becomes equivalent to 79 grains of BP.
Every grain measurement used in the example is by volume, and the catalyst charge of 10 grains of BP would be dropped into the bottom of the breech first and not mixed in with the 777.

An easy way to calculate 15% is to do it in 3 steps.
First, multiply the amount by 10% which only requires moving the decimal point. (10% of 60 = 6)
Second, 1/2 of the 10% amount is 3 grains which is 5%. (1/2 of 6 = 3)
Third, add those 2 numbers together and you arrive at the 15% figure without needing a calculator. (6 + 3 = 9)

Smokin_Gun
February 26, 2009, 03:45 AM
Well said Articap!!!

mykeal
February 26, 2009, 08:08 AM
How would mixing the powders change the formula normally used to compute the load of 777 vs regular black powder?

Don't mix them. Load the real black first, then load the 777 on top. The real black will ignite first and quickly go to combustion temperature, which will then easily ignite the 777.

And it doesn't matter if the real black/777 interface is a crisp, clean line or mixed up. The idea is to get some real black in the ignition train before the 777; how much and in what ratio is unimportant.

BHP FAN
February 26, 2009, 01:00 PM
Right,you're using the real powder as an igniter,due to it's lower ignition temperature/flash point.

grimjaw
February 26, 2009, 01:20 PM
I should have stated my question differently. I knew the point was to use the small real BP charge as an igniter. I just didn't know if it would affect the calculation for using 777. Thanks for the patient answer, though. :)

jm

arcticap
February 26, 2009, 03:05 PM
Actually, the way I'm calculating the conversion of 777 to BP volume is backwards so it produces a slight error, but it's a very small error.
The method is supposed to be used for converting BP volume to the 777 equivalent, not the other way around but it still works.

Example: 15% of 70 grains of BP = 10.5 grains.
So 59.5 grains of 777 equals 70 grains of BP, instead of 60 grains of 777 equaling 69 grains of BP.
But the resulting maximum margin of error of +/- 2.75 grains per hundred grains created by calculating it backwards should be close enough.
Especially since it's much easier than using algebra! :D

Pancho
February 26, 2009, 05:11 PM
Mykeal, Somewhat off the subject but the 5th edition of Sam Fadala's book states that Pyrodex has been reformulated to perform in flintlocks. Have you seen any data to support such a claim?

mykeal
February 26, 2009, 05:14 PM
Have not, nor have I tried it. Got a bunch of Pyrodex on sale at the local Wal-Mart after the end of the muzzleloader deer season here (just couldn't pass up $3 a jar!:what:) even though I rarely use it. I'll try it next month and see what happens.

grimjaw
February 26, 2009, 06:50 PM
just couldn't pass up $3 a jar!

!!!

I guess I should have waited longer. I was buying it when they had it at $15/jar. :(

Got some 777 at $15 per though.

jm

MCgunner
February 26, 2009, 07:15 PM
I wish I could figure out where to buy black powder somewhere within 500 miles of here. :rolleyes: I hear there's a Sportsman's warehouse in San Antonio that has it, but I never go up that way.

I stick with Pyrodex RS, it works. I did convert my Hawken to take small rifle magnum primers. That cured any hangfire problems I had before and protects the firing mechanism from moisture. I still have the No. 11 nipple for it, but really like the small rifle primer conversion.

Guvnor
March 7, 2009, 09:32 PM
just to update...I switched to goex and fired around 20 shots with it today, not a single hangfire. Im sold on the genuine black.

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