H&K USC-45 vs FN PS90


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Maverick223
February 26, 2009, 08:27 PM
It's about carbine/SMG time...Thinking of ordering a HK USC45 and getting the "UMP Kit" for it...however I like the idea of a bullpup (love my M17S). Great to have a that [comparatively] long barrel in a short package. I also like the idea of a HK SMG in .45ACP, especially IIRC the mags are the same as the ones for my full size HK USP. So opinions? Also, any thoughts on the effectiveness of a .45ACP out of a 16" bbl vs. whitetail deer (within 100yds.) If the answer is dead deer I think I found me a gun. :D Feel free to suggest other CQ pistol/rifle caliber guns (no AKs, AR variants, etc).

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taliv
February 26, 2009, 08:33 PM
i had both, sold both cause neither were anywhere as good as an AR15.

but if i had to choose, i'd go with the USC/UMP.

Maverick223
February 26, 2009, 08:38 PM
Any thoughts on the knock down power of the 45 ACP on a deer...I know it is more than sufficient for BGs. ;)

nwilliams
February 26, 2009, 09:57 PM
I owned a USC for a few years but sold it due to the fact you couldn't use high cap mags in it and to convert to a UMP clone was way too expensive.

I now own a PS90 and I'm extremely happy with it.

Deer Hunter
February 26, 2009, 10:00 PM
People have killed deer with the .45 ACP before. Just place your shots and know your gun.

nwilliams
February 26, 2009, 10:06 PM
People have killed deer with the .45 ACP before. Just place your shots and know your gun.

This is true but seeing as though there is currently no AWB the fact the gun is still in post-ban configuration seems really sad to me. If HK is still manufacturing the gun then why are they still acting like the ban is in place. If they re-released the USC in in a non-ban configuration I would be all over it!

Maverick223
February 26, 2009, 10:08 PM
I owned a USC for a few years but sold it due to the fact you couldn't use high cap mags in it and to convert to a UMP clone was way too expensive.

I now own a PS90 and I'm extremely happy with it.

Thanks for the reply, I definitely like the capacity of the PS90 better,30-50rnds vs. 10-12rnds; and the cartridges are of lesser weight. But less [projectile] weight = less energy delivery (generally).

MatthewVanitas
February 26, 2009, 10:14 PM
I'd go PS90, just because it's more unconventional and a bullpup.

They both look a little silly with the extended 16" barrels, but the FN barrel notably less so. Plus the FN barrel is at least helping with velocity, whereas I'm under the impression that the .45 ACP starts to decrease in velocity from a 16" since that's more barrel than it needs to burn powder.

Before folks come in with price, I'll point out that .45 ACP is running around 36c a shot for even West Euro-made (Fiocchi) ammo, while 5.7 is running 39c a shot, so they're really about the same price. Further, as established as .45 ACP is it's not going to get any cheaper relative to 5.7, but if a major US manufacturer starts producing economical 5.7 (as Federal is rumoured to be considering), 5.7 could well drop below .45 in the near future.

Plus, seriously, bullpup.

Maverick223
February 26, 2009, 10:16 PM
People have killed deer with the .45 ACP before
I have heard of polar bears taken with a .22lr :scrutiny: (supposedly eye shots), but that doesn't mean I want to try it. What would be a good comparison? (e.g.: better than 30 carbine, but worse than 7.62x39) Thanks for the reply.

Maverick223
February 26, 2009, 10:20 PM
If they re-released the USC in in a non-ban configuration I would be all over it!
That'd be great, would make deciding a bit easier.:confused:

Maverick223
February 26, 2009, 10:23 PM
Plus, seriously, bullpup.
Everyone loves a new puppy.;)

Prion
February 26, 2009, 10:23 PM
I wouldn't be too worried about high cap, I think 10 rounds of .45 would likely put down a deer or two. If not you've got a serious crank problem among your deer herds or you need to go back to the range. Maybe HK will release a high cap USC mag? Please......?????

gvnwst
February 26, 2009, 10:28 PM
I voted PS90, mostly because of the mag issue. And because they fit me like a glove, are really cool, and ammo is available around here. Funny thing, i can get large NE and H&H cartridges, but sometimes i can't get more than one type of .223, 52gr stuff!

Deer Hunter
February 26, 2009, 10:33 PM
Over at the hunting forum there have been many threads showing people killing deer and hogs with 1911s in .45 ACP.

Just put the bullet in the right place. Not saying its ideal, and I wouldn't go out further than 50 yards to be honest.

Go with a lever-gun in .357, .45 Colt, or .44 mag if you want to be sure.

goldie
February 27, 2009, 10:40 AM
45 ammo is a lot more abundant than the 5.7 is.i have a usc, & it puts rounds into one small hole at 25 yards. its very accurate & reliable....

Storm
February 27, 2009, 12:44 PM
Though choice. I own both and wouldn't part with either. They are two very different weapons.

As to why HK keeps the sporting configuaration even though the ban is over, they have to as the guns are made in Germany and are subject to import restrictions and 922(r). And yes, they do make a 20 round mag for the USC. It's $129 which is still cheaper than any of these USC/UMP conversions. I will be keeping my USC stock. Ten rounds works for me, and two can be mag cinched together. I'll eventually pick a 20 rounder. I just got a 20 round mag for my SL8, which I also keep stock.

The word is that the USC and SL8 are no longer being imported. But, wait a few years and they might bring them back just like they did with the newer black ones after the gray ones first came out.

Again, a very tough choice as they are two very different weapons. I suppose I'd give the edge to the USC due to caliber, but only if not turned into a UMP look-alike.

Maverick223
February 27, 2009, 02:01 PM
It's $129 which is still cheaper than any of these USC/UMP conversions.

So you cannot use USC/USP mags after the conversion? :cuss: One of the things I like about the USC is the ability to take USP mags IIRC (gotta check on that). :banghead:

Pulse
February 27, 2009, 02:23 PM
Also, any thoughts on the effectiveness of a .45ACP out of a 16" bbl vs. whitetail deer (within 100yds.)

.45ACP gains little from a long barrel.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

the 230grain CorBon +P load from a 1911 has about 713J of energie.
the same load from a Carbine with 16inch barrel reaches 864J of energie.

(and yes, energoe does matter. :P)

Maverick223
February 27, 2009, 02:29 PM
.45ACP gains little from a long barrel.

Thanks, maybe Buffalo Bore will solve that.

taliv
February 27, 2009, 02:43 PM
my USC/UMP conversion was done so that it takes grease-gun mags which are awesome (but weigh a ton)

keep in mind that the actual UMP is double-stack and the USC is single-stack

possum
February 27, 2009, 03:36 PM
i would go with the ps90 higher capacity, high velocity, no recoil at all, and it is imho one of the coolest rifles on the market, look wise as well as the mechanics of the system, and how it operates.

Maverick223
February 27, 2009, 04:26 PM
keep in mind that the actual UMP is double-stack and the USC is single-stack
So I must be incorrect about it taking the same mags, b/c the USP is twin stacked. Is it the UMP that uses USP mags, or am I just all wrong? Grease mags sound good though...should be available and cheap. Thanks for the info.

taliv
February 27, 2009, 04:41 PM
dunno, maverick. i bought mine years ago just after HK stopped making them and stopped importing them.

a couple years later, i started seeing all these "factory black" models wandering around but i never got my hands on one. so maybe they solved that problem and are compatible with something standard-capacity. i'm just saying i'd look into it before dropping a chunk of change

Storm
February 27, 2009, 04:56 PM
So I must be incorrect about it taking the same mags, b/c the USP is twin stacked. Is it the UMP that uses USP mags, or am I just all wrong? Grease mags sound good though...should be available and cheap. Thanks for the info.

USC mags are single stack ten rounds that only fit the USC. USP mags will not fit. Conversions will allow for the grease gun mags or UMP mags. There are also the aftermarket USC single stack 20 round mags.

To me 20 rounds of .45 is more than I want to lug around on a carbine. Folks will trust their life to ten rounds or less of .45 with a handgun, but when it's a carbine they will spend thousands to avoid what can be easily be accomplished with a mag change for another ten rounds. I don't get it. Unless you have to have a UMP look-alike (a conversion will never be a UMP) or a folding stock, leave the USC as it is, preserve the warranty, and if you have to have 20 rounds buy the aftermarket mag or get a mag cinch. I know that guys have a lot of fun converting their USC, and quite a little aftermarket has sprung up around it, but I see the money spent on an already expensive weapon to be of questionable value, other than the enjoyment factor. Same with the SL8 to G36, especially if the new 20 round mags work out, taking away the major drawback of the weapon (to some).

If you are looking to convert the HK, buy the PS90, you will be money ahead.

ApexinM3
February 27, 2009, 05:06 PM
I have owned both, and for me personally I liked the HK more. The ammo for .45ACP is more readily available, it is already subsonic, has some serious knock down power, and will slow down if going thru a wall better (no scientific data to prove this) than the 5.7x28mm. That said, both weapons are excellent.

If it is a cost issue, I would go with the PS90 for the shear fact that it is a complete package ready to go (i.e. high cap mags). The USC needs to be converted to the UMP platform to handle high capacity magazines but if done is a super-compact unit.

You won't go wrong with either one, both are priced about the same, and ammo is similar in cost, too. Have fun with whatever you end up with & enjoy!

Storm
February 27, 2009, 05:10 PM
Looks like a pogo stick: http://www.hera-arms.com/mag.php

Maverick223
February 27, 2009, 10:12 PM
Thanks for the replies, looks like I want to use UMP mags (less "pogo-like") if I go the USC route, and a UMP conversion is just about definite as I don't too much care for the sporter configuration. Thanks for the replies.

nwilliams
February 27, 2009, 10:27 PM
Looks like a pogo stick http://www.hera-arms.com/mag.php

LOL! Wow that looks ridiculous!:eek:

Storm
February 28, 2009, 09:51 AM
I honestly don't mind the "sporter" configuration. The grip is just as comfortable as just about any converted one that I've held, and the stock is so skeletonized that sometimes I have to look twice to see which it is. I can live without a folding stock and a ten round mag change with a mag cinch is easy peasy.

It comes down to econmics. Spending $1400 just so that I can spend another thousand or two isn't my game. But, more power to those that do as they seem to be really happy with what they have.

BTW, with a related weapon, the SL8, I find the thumbhole stock to provide one of the most positive and firm grips of any rifle I have fired. My hand almost locks into that thumbhole. No, it's not a weapon that I will be clearing rooms with, the same with the USC, but I'm not clearing as many rooms as I used to, except when I eat stuffed cabbage ;)

alistaire
February 28, 2009, 10:16 AM
If I had to choose between the two I'd choose the FN because they seem to hate us less:-) But I'd probably buy another 1911 with the money.

If I got a PS90 I'd want the barrel leagally cut down to Stargate SG1 length, and a 5.7 pistol to match; and if something attacked me that was too big and nasty to kill with 5.7, I'll want a .25ACP for backup.:-)

Storm
February 28, 2009, 10:20 AM
I'm curious about cutting the length of a barrel on a gun that is arguably marginal to begin with. How much of a velocity difference is there between a P90 and PS90? Is it significant?

Maverick223
February 28, 2009, 07:42 PM
except when I eat stuffed cabbage

Storm, you sound like a dangerous man. :neener:

Maverick223
February 28, 2009, 08:02 PM
:uhoh: Uh-oh found out some sobering news, the 5.7 is only marginally better than the .22WM and worse than a .22 Hornet. :barf: Ummm, so much for being a cop killer, more like a cat killer. I kinda like big boy guns (strongly considering both a .338 Lapua and a .458 Lott as next rifle...after the SMG). A .45ACP or 9mm is looking more promising... Anyone know of any manufacturers of MP5s (e.g.: Vector)?

jackdanson
February 28, 2009, 08:30 PM
bleh, no Hicap mags for the HK... and HK hates you.

FN all the way.

Uh-oh found out some sobering news, the 5.7 is only marginally better than the .22WM and worse than a .22 Hornet. Ummm, so much for being a cop killer, more like a cat killer.

Yeah, the gun was designed to be full auto with.... 3 5.7 rounds hitting you would drop nearly anyone, me thinks.

How bout a beretta storm?

Maverick223
February 28, 2009, 08:39 PM
How bout a beretta storm?

Have a friend that has one in 9mm, not really all that accurate (with irons) or reliable. Thanks for the input.

Pulse
February 28, 2009, 08:46 PM
Anyone know of any manufacturers of MP5s

Brügger & Thomet BT96 and MKE T94 are the versions you can get in europe.. not sure if they are sold in to the USA as well, but you would also have to get that stamp(?) that allows you short barrels.

Maverick223
February 28, 2009, 08:49 PM
not sure if they are sold in to the USA
Damn Europeans get all the good stuff... :neener: Even the powerful, elusive, deadly, Swiss Mini-Gun. :rolleyes:

taliv
February 28, 2009, 08:50 PM
let's continue the discussion in this thread: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=431754

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