What do ya'll think, is this for real or scam,trap?


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Grassman
February 26, 2009, 09:24 PM
This was taken from another message board I frequent. This message board is just every day conversation and not strictly gun talk. I copied and pasted it below. Is this for real or something else? A scam, a trap or what?..................




the good bil is to say the least, a gun "enthusiast" (sp). well today he gets a phone call at work from.... (fanfare please) the ATF. It seems one of the weapons he purchased as new from a local gun shop not only isn't new but has been ballistic matched to a crime dating before he purchased the weapon.



just me or does this sound weird? the gentleman who called had all the proper data and everything....

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Duke of Doubt
February 26, 2009, 09:28 PM
I suspect the umbrella man from the grassy knoll. The one who was always smoking imitation cigarettes on the set and delivering put option price points to the Bavarian Illuminati whenever the Mason boys weren't trying to give him an atomic wedgie.

WardenWolf
February 26, 2009, 09:31 PM
It was "ballistic matched"? Uh, how would they have an sample from this specific firearm to match it to a crime? Crime scene evidence is one step, but they need to then match it to a firearm they have on record. Most aren't on record. The way a firearm normally gets on record is if it's seized under a warrant and then cross-referenced.

I strongly doubt this. Plus the fact that ballistic matching is not an exact science. While it can generally tell between two specific firearms, it is not going to be reliable when compared to the overall sea of firearms out there. There will be many false matches.

Grassman
February 26, 2009, 09:34 PM
That's what I'm asking, this sounds like some sorta scam or something. But all the numbers match up. Someone from the place where he bought it?

Duke of Doubt
February 26, 2009, 09:36 PM
Grassman: "But all the numbers match up."

O.K.; that wasn't in the OP. What do you mean?

ants
February 26, 2009, 09:39 PM
I would suspect that the entire incident is false.

Personally, I wouldn't use my time trying to figure out which part of the story is falsehood or truth. I would suspect the entire story would likely be false.

Grassman
February 26, 2009, 09:40 PM
I misread that one, just that he had all the correct data.

WardenWolf
February 26, 2009, 09:40 PM
I call BS. Really, I do. Something like this wouldn't happen out of the blue. This guy isn't telling everythig, or he's making the whole thing up as he goes.

CWL
February 26, 2009, 09:48 PM
The only 'matching' is in some states where you need to provide some fired brass, but I doubt that Texas is one of those states.

If it was a crime, wouldn't the FBI be investigating, unless this has something to do with weapons trafficking. If in doubt, the person should call the local branch of the ATF and inquire, he shouldn't return the call or agree to meet with anyone.

Grassman
February 26, 2009, 09:48 PM
Like I said, this ain't me. Just someone on another message board.

Jim K
February 26, 2009, 10:03 PM
MD and NY have "ballistic fingerprinting" in which a fired case from a new gun is submitted to the state police after the sale is finalized. It is certainly possible that the situation as described could actually happen in those states.

One of the flaws of the law, which was pointed out to its backers, is that a bad guy can pick up cases at a range and leave them at a crime scene to implicate an innocent person; I don't know if it has been done, but it could be. And of course, there is always the possibility of a mistake; unlike human fingerprints, there is no large body of data to prove beyond reasonable doubt that there can be no duplicate cartridge markings.

BATFE normally wouldn't be involved, but I bet they would investigate the dealer to make sure he isn't engaged in some kind of "rent-a-gun" operation.

Jim

Officers'Wife
February 26, 2009, 10:05 PM
By any chance does this guy write scripts for one of the CSIs?

jnyork
February 26, 2009, 10:07 PM
Does not pass the smell test. Something amiss here.

madmike
February 27, 2009, 07:37 AM
Well, if it "wasn't new" but was sold as such, the dealer is a fraud.

I agree he needs to call the ATF from the phone book, not return anyone's call unverified.

If what he's saying is what he actually heard, not BS from the word Go, it sounds like someone at the store is hoping he'll "surrender" the weapon peacefully, and then they'll resell it to the next sucker.

Or he could just be a clown seeking attention.

Duke of Doubt
February 27, 2009, 10:31 AM
Mods?

twoclones
February 27, 2009, 10:44 AM
Another Urban Legend begins.

Duke of Doubt
February 27, 2009, 10:50 AM
More like a Middle School Rumor.

scottgun
February 27, 2009, 10:54 AM
By any chance does this guy write scripts for one of the CSIs?

I think I saw that episode

MachIVshooter
February 27, 2009, 10:54 AM
Bunch of bull snot. Some of the reasons have already been expounded upon, others not. Suffice it to say that the technology and tracking databases for such action do not exist. Also, it would not be ATF; it would be the LEA investigating the crime in which the gun in question was allegedly used.

Duke of Doubt
February 27, 2009, 10:57 AM
Jim Keenan: "... unlike human fingerprints, there is no large body of data to prove beyond reasonable doubt that there can be no duplicate cartridge markings."

Fingerprinting is the biggest con in criminal justice for the past century. It's crap.

rbernie
February 27, 2009, 11:06 AM
just me or does this sound weird? the gentleman who called had all the proper data and everything....No way to know what is going on, with the data provided.

I am reminded of the OK investigation in which a 40cal was used to murder two young girls on a back road, and the local police did a mass mailing to all the local folk who had purchased 40cal pistols. (Despite the article's misstatements, there is no 'gun registration' in OK and they must have used purchase records that were manually culled from local gun shops..)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080819_12_A1_hAgent424864&allcom=1

My point is that there are innumerable circumstances that could lead to a phone call, and with the data provided by the OP there is no way to know for sure what is going on.

I can see no way for this to be a scam , tho.

XD9WBT
February 27, 2009, 11:10 AM
Another Urban Legend begins.
Exactly and the kicker is the Phone call. The ATF would call not and tell someone they were in possession of evidence.
More likely you would get what they call a Waco job.

Straight Shooter
February 27, 2009, 11:12 AM
MD and NY have "ballistic fingerprinting" in which a fired case from a new gun is submitted to the state police after the sale is finalized. It is certainly possible that the situation as described could actually happen in those states.

I just purchased a new XD45 in PA and during his safety speech the shop owner pulled out a little envelope from the XD's case and proceeded to tell me not to throw this envelope away because if I did I wouldn't be able to sell the gun in MD. I asked him what it was and he explained that it was a spent casing that the factory shoots then submits a report or something to MD.

I had heard that fingerprinting the casing or coding the bullet were being considered for new laws but I wasn't aware that it was already happening.

One more baby step...

PAshooter
February 27, 2009, 11:46 AM
I just purchased a new XD45 in PA and during his safety speech the shop owner pulled out a little envelope from the XD's case and proceeded to tell me not to throw this envelope away because if I did I wouldn't be able to sell the gun in MD. I asked him what it was and he explained that it was a spent casing that the factory shoots then submits a report or something to MD.

I had heard that fingerprinting the casing or coding the bullet were being considered for new laws but I wasn't aware that it was already happening.


It's not... and you were misinformed... on two counts.

1) A spent casing is required to purchase a new handgun in MD. Not required when purchasing a used firearm.

2) No "report" is sent to the State Police; the spent casing is sent along with the permit to purchase paperwork. It then gets filed away somewhere... or maybe imaged... and ends up in a database associated with that firearm.

The theory is that unique markings on the spent case could be used to match the gun to cases found at a future crime scene. Number of crimes solved using this data over the many, many years MD has been requiring this: zero.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with microstamping, it's supposed to work with standard, Mark I ammo and guns, by matching the marks left on the brass upon firing by imperfections in the chamber, extractor marks, etc.

It's a joke. But hey... anything to interfere with the lawful exercise of a Constitutionally guaranteed right.

kirkcdl
February 27, 2009, 04:33 PM
All that is needed is a "call back" number,then call it...

Hungry Seagull
February 27, 2009, 05:49 PM
There is a casing in a sealed envelope for my gun by the factory that casing is in a secure place for future use.

The rest of it is iffy.

Average Joe
February 27, 2009, 05:50 PM
First of all they would not call you on the phone, they would show up at your front door. So as far a I am concerned its just some nut on the phone playing games .

leadcounsel
February 27, 2009, 06:16 PM
BS - they don't have the gun to match it.

If I read correctly they don't have the gun so how could they match it up (the recovered evidence with a shot/casing from the known weapon to compare it)?

Duke of Doubt
February 27, 2009, 06:27 PM
God, what a waste of money.

So you swap out the unserialed barrel and unserialed bolt assembly after taking delivery, and after you whack Curious George, you turn in your gun to rule yourself out as a potential suspect. After all, "It Doesn't Match."

*****.

TexasRifleman
February 27, 2009, 06:32 PM
There is a casing in a sealed envelope for my gun by the factory that casing is in a secure place for future use.

Just curious. Why in the world are you keeping it?

Hungry Seagull
February 27, 2009, 06:34 PM
Texas Rifleman, I dont know. It came with the gun, manual etc. It sits in the gun case. It was a retail purchase. Figures it's some kind of ballistic test on the gun itself so... if there is ever a problem like a shootout or whatever, the forensics can determine which gun is which.

Have been thinking for days about making new thread about this particular item, but did not want to pronouce my ignorance for all the world to see with such a dumb question. Maybe I learn something here yah?

mgkdrgn
February 27, 2009, 06:47 PM
the phone number to hear this story is:

1 - 800 - bul - ****

madmike
February 28, 2009, 04:36 AM
I wonder, is a "bullet casing" more like a sausage casing, or more like a cartridge case?:scrutiny:

Sorry, I just hate bad nomenclature. Load the "bullet casing" with "gunpowder" and "slugs" then put it in the "clip" for your "assault weapon."

I actually wrote a lengthy article on why "ballistic fingerprinting" is utter BS, but that forum is now down. I should archive it. So is "Serial numbering" bullets.

The former is just impossible--unless no one ever changes barrels or firing pins, never shoots them enough to change characteristics, never does a heavy cleaning, never deliberately polishes/gouges any of the above. And given modern manufacturing, there's so little difference between components anyway that a bullet fired in just about any weapon, certainly from a given mfr, is going to be identical to most others.
(BTW, I believe the empty cases are to prove that the fired bullets were submitted to the state. The cases are worthless.)

The latter is legally impossible--prove I bought a certain bullet. Think carefully about how that would be done. If the number is on the side or nose, it will go away when shot. On the base, it's not visible--HOW DO YOU PROVE I EVER RECEIVED THAT BULLET? That it went into that exact case, that box of ammo, and that no one from producer to retailer might have mixed them around?

You can't.

If such a law passed it would be invalidated in the first trial. This is why drug testing requires chain of custody from specimen to lab and back. You're going to do that with bullets?

Hah.

Back on topic: There is NO WAY ATF can know what gun was fired. Nor would that be their jurisdiction. Nor would they call on the phone and give someone a chance to dispose of evidence.

The story is BS. Either someone is conning the teller, or he's lying.

Desert Panther
February 28, 2009, 06:11 AM
duke of doubt wrote "Fingerprinting is the biggest con in criminal justice for the past century. It's crap."

just curious here, and not trying to hijack the thread, but can you explain this a little further?:confused:

akodo
February 28, 2009, 06:12 AM
There is a casing in a sealed envelope for my gun by the factory that casing is in a secure place for future use

shop owner pulled out a little envelope from the XD's case and proceeded to tell me not to throw this envelope away because if I did I wouldn't be able to sell the gun in MD. I asked him what it was and he explained that it was a spent casing that the factory shoots then submits a report or something to MD.

Here's how it works.

In SOME states and SOME cities, when a new gun is purchased, a fired case must be sent into some LEO agency in theory to build a database so they can collect cases at a crime scene, run the cases, and see whose gun the came from.

Here's the deal, no way can a gun maker know what state a firearm will be sent to once it hits the distributor. Gun makers aren't going to make special runs of guns just for certain states. Most gun makers, to make sure their guns can be sold in those states include these cases in ALL firearms.

IF you are a state/city that requires this, the FFL will be the one taking out the cases and sending them in.

Obviously, anyone buying the gun to commit a crime will use a straw buyer AND will fail to send the cases in. Hence they'd never leave it up to the individual purchaser, any more than the gun shop would hand you the phone and tell you to call NICS yourself and then believe you when you said 'I got the all clear'

Deanimator
February 28, 2009, 08:43 AM
Back in the late '80s, I got a letter through the Army Locator Service. It was from a gun store in Elizabethtown, KY where I'd bought and traded a lot of guns while I was stationed at Fort Knox. It turns out that one of the guns that I'd traded to them had been stolen in California around ten years before I traded it to them. The BATF had contacted the store seeking to determine where they'd gotten it. They in turn contacted me to find out where I'd gotten it. I called the gun store and told them that I'd bought it on a 4473 from a well known gun store in Cosmosdale, KY a little ways north on Hwy 31w. That's the last I've heard of the matter, and that was some time around 1988 or so.

PS - The agency's name is BATFE, NOT "ATF". That's a juvenile affectation of theirs I have UTTERLY refused to cater to.

crebralfix
February 28, 2009, 08:52 AM
If the ATF really did call him, then it's not a social call! Don't talk to the police except through the filter of a lawyer. Period. Don't allow them to do anything without a warrant.

TexasRifleman
February 28, 2009, 08:53 AM
just curious here, and not trying to hijack the thread, but can you explain this a little further?

Duke probably has his own stories, since he's an attorney, but fingerprinting has been coming under fire in more recent years.

For a long time courts just accepted that it was a "perfect" science and that was that.

As technology has improved there have been challenges to this belief, many successful.

Here's a 2001 article from the NY Times, if you search around you can find other writings on the subject.

http://www.truthinjustice.org/fingerprints.htm

More recent

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/mar/23/crime.penal

Duke of Doubt
February 28, 2009, 04:11 PM
TX11B: "fingerprinting has been coming under fire in more recent years."

Oh, yes. In fifteen years practice, seven of them focussed on felony criminal and tax cases, I've never yet seen a prosecutor try to introduce fingerprint "evidence" at trial. However, I DID once encounter same in a pre-trial hearing a few years back, and the assistant District Attorney withdrew his own evidence in order to keep my sarcasm in its holster.

You can imagine.

"So ... Miss Fingerstain ... your testimony is to say that, and to summarize, those 'prints' you compared to those 'prints taken from my client, are NOT exactly those prints of the accused?" /"Err, yes, but they were compared."/"Meaning you compared them. And you are testifying, today, specifically that those same compared prints are NOT the exact same as those of whichever animal did those things to Miss Jones?"/"Well, yes."/"Not the same, but somewhat similar, in some ways?"/"Yes."/"Thank you. Nothing further."

PWN

BHP FAN
February 28, 2009, 04:49 PM
Well,that's how they do it on CSI. Seriously though, like the polygraph a lot of this 'science' depends on what the bad guy believes you can do.

Duke of Doubt
February 28, 2009, 04:58 PM
BHP FAN: "Seriously though, like the polygraph a lot of this 'science' depends on what the bad guy believes you can do."

Oh, I know. And I'm not some bleeding heart. It's hilarious what they'll believe. You could tell them the freaking Tooth Fairy gave them up through DNA CSI evidence, and they'd finger their own grandmother for the Cooper job.

madmike
March 1, 2009, 12:22 AM
Deanimator: I think what they were trying to do is show a chain from mfr to last owner. That's helpful in proving theft, and IIRC, it's required before a defaced weapon can have a number restored--they have to be able to either lift the number (with acid, magnaflux, etc...it is VERY HARD to obliterate a stamped serial number except by welding or drilling), or prove origin on it.

JWF III
March 1, 2009, 02:28 AM
All that is needed is a "call back" number,then call it...

...or just do a reverse look up on the web. If it's a gov't agency, it'll be listed.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with microstamping, it's supposed to work with standard, Mark I ammo and guns, by matching the marks left on the brass upon firing by imperfections in the chamber, extractor marks, etc.


I guess no politician has ever thought that a revolver could be used in a crime. Anywhere from 5-10 different chambers, with different tooling marks, no extractor marks, and no cases left on the scene.

Wyman

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