Differences between sub-forums...


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B yond
February 27, 2009, 12:29 AM
I frequent several different sub-forums here at THR, and lately I've noticed some differences in regards to the cordiality (is that even a word?) and general politeness of posts in the various sub-forums.

General Gun Discussions seems to be a kind of melting pot. People from all the other sub-forums tend to stop by and share. There is a general level of decency and respect.

Handloading and Reloading and Blackpowder Shooting are full of great people who seem to genuinely want to help others to enjoy their hobbies.

Handguns: General Discussion is usually cordial, though the people who reside there tend to be very set in their ideas about the various manufacturers and the superiority of some makes/models over others.

Strategies and Tactics has become kind of disappointing to me. While many people there are there to learn and share so that others may learn, there is a growing number of the ranks that seem to be there to assert their tactical superiority. I don't mind being told I'm wrong (everyone is once in awhile), but some of this stuff gets downright insulting. I don't know when this sub-forum started going downhill but something has definitely changed over there.

What are your experiences?

Note to mods: though this might not be "gun-related" it is related to continuing firearms education and the online shooting community, so I'm assuming it's not inappropriate for THR. If I am wrong, I will not be offended if you lock this thread.

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rbernie
February 27, 2009, 12:33 AM
I've moved the thread to Tech Support.

My sense is that S&T and Activism and Legal have to be the most difficult forums to moderate, simply because of the amount of downright damage that can be done by posting ill-informed content. I don't spend much time in those forums myself, but I would certainly expect them to be a little more 'controlled' than other forums.

Some forums, and I'm thinking specifically of the Handloading forum, seem to be pretty well self-policing and rarely do I see a spat or hostility. That is likely due to the nature of the subject itself and the personalities of the folk who engage in that sort of thing. The same is likely true of the BP forum.

Just thinkin' out loud, and likely wrong.... :)

wrc376
February 27, 2009, 12:38 AM
I have a problem with the Activism sub section... it seems to be more about telling other people they are wrong than trying to build consensus and doing something productive...

BullfrogKen
February 27, 2009, 02:56 AM
Having come on board to help Jeff fix the problems in S&T a couple years back, that particular subforum had gotten completely out of hand.

Discussions had degerated into those revolving around Walter Mitty fantasies, "but we can kill them in Texas" threads, and obsessions around survivalism and bug-out-bags.


Very little of those discussions had little to do with actual Strategies and Tactics for everyday living and reality.


And the board lost a lot of good, contributing members over it. Members who were full-time trainers wound up being criticized by others who had not only had never taken any professional instruction, but were even ignorant of who is was they were speaking to. Not to say that trainers are gods, but let's just say the lack of respect for both their knowledge and willingness to share it here freely drove many of them off into private forums that check credentials at the door.

They simply got tired of debating non-sense on line with anonymous users who may, or in most cases may not, have any knowledge of the subject being discussed. And so did many other well-studied members. As THR grew, many who longed for serious debate and discussion retreated into those private subforums.


"Tactical superiority?" "Snobbery?"

I don't know what you want to call it. You can label it however you want. But I know I've had this discussion with other Staff and members in private. S&T used to be considered a technical subforum, not a social one. It entailed that those participating had some level of knowledge, just like discussions of reloading takes some level of knowledge.


I've noticed trends over the years. Gun class AAR's get very little discussion. "What I carry" threads get plenty. As do, "what would you do" threads.


Mindset. Skills. Tools.


That's the order the training community recognizes as crucial to surviving a fight. I've noticed more would rather talk tools, than skills and mindset. And I've noticed that more would rather ask others - complete strangers - for their opinions on how to handle a confrontation than take some training and find out what works best for himself. In the end, what does it matter what I would do? I'm not you, and I won't be at your fight. You're going to have to come up with your own answer, based upon your individual personality, your unique skills and abilities to use the tools you've chosen to solve the problem in front of you. My answer won't work for you, and your answer won't work for me.


S&T is a very tough subject to cover on-line. It does require some base level of knowledge to have quality discussion. And although its not condusive to a discussion board, most often the appropriate response is, "go take a training class and work on developing your skills."


My own personal views are there is no one right answer to solving a problem. There are many good ones, but they are unique to each person. And yes, there are poor ones. It's up to the serious student to explore those in his own personal study. And I find myself listening much more than I speak. Which again makes S&T a tough topic for on-line discussion.

B yond
February 27, 2009, 10:09 PM
S&T was the forum that really disappointed me, and it's really only because of a few people. Most people here can disagree respectfully, but those people don't seem to post in S&T as much as they used to.

I was very disappointed with the degradation of a thread I recently started in S&T. I was actually offended by the remarks of a couple of posters, one in particular (and I'm not easily offended). I'd proposed an idea for a technique I'd been playing around with. It was not well received. That's fine, some very valid points were made against it, I can live with that. I even wrote a post acknowledging the very valid points against my idea.

Some posters, however, were not content to merely disagree with me or point out the flaws in my idea, they had to add insults and insist that I needed additional training and had no experience. :mad:

I may not have the most training (I do have some), and I may not have the most experience (I do have some), but I'm far from new to shooting. I shouldn't have to submit a shooting resume to ask for feedback on a new idea.

I live my life with the assumption that the only way anything is improved is through the sharing of ideas. I will not be sharing my ideas at S&T any more. That forum has become a pi$$ing contest where only published authors, successful competitive shooters, famous instructors, and decorated specops soldiers are given the same level of respect I would give a stranger on the street.

That portion of the high road needs repaving.

Hungry Seagull
February 27, 2009, 10:15 PM
No tatic survives the first shot. Stragety is fluid and changing.

We all have had different walks of life and out look. Some of us had a fighting chance, others are only now realizing that they are now gunowners and need/seek ideas or knowledge.

Maybe it's time to call that S&T Sub Forum something else. Such as Town Commons or something where we can talk over what possibilties are outthere and be able to disagree respectfully and explain why.

Im late to these forums and am sorry to see a litte bit of.. loss in what I would think very valuable things to think about.

My two cents.

rbernie
February 27, 2009, 10:19 PM
Some posters, however, were not content to merely disagree with me or point out the flaws in my idea, they had to add insults and insist that I needed additional training and had no experience.Did you hit the 'report a post' button to let a mod know that you felt that the thread was degenerating? That may have been a good idea....

hso
February 28, 2009, 12:32 AM
Activism is probably the most narrowly defined subforum here. It is a workshop instead of a discussion forum. It is intended to be the place where we share realistic plans for how to support RKBA with each other. The plans have to have enough detail so that others can follow them to support RKBA. They may be focused on political action or social/cultural action, but they are supposed to be the starting point for action.

If the OP doesn't have a plan, but has a general idea for one they'd like to explore then we have Activism Discussion where they can kick the idea around with others building the framework and fleshing it out until they come up with something with enough detail to be a viable plan of action.

Some folks come there to shout and complain instead of plan and do. Their posts get deleted, just like you'd try to keep a workshop tidy and free of clutter.

Jeff White
February 28, 2009, 04:16 PM
Maybe it's time to call that S&T Sub Forum something else. Such as Town Commons or something where we can talk over what possibilties are outthere and be able to disagree respectfully and explain why.

No it's time to implement some more changes into how S&T is run. Lee Lapin and I had proposed some further changes back in August to tighten the place up some more and then other issues concerning THR as a whole happened and that plan was pushed aside. It's probably time to dust it off and implement it.

S&T was not ever supposed to be a "town commons" it is supposed to be a place where mature people can have meaningful discussions of serious adult issues.

Your topic was just the kind of topic that we want to have in S&T and I'm sorry that it was taken off track. I would rather have a discussion of your idea, then 10 threads on if this gun is better then that gun for defensive purposes.

One thing I've noticed is that the topics that S&T was created for don't get a lot of discussion, a class review may get 10-15 replies, 20 on a good week. A thread on an actual incident where more information is available then what's in your average news report gets few replies while one based on the sketchy information in a news article or a totally hypotheitcal situation sometimes runs several pages.

Give us a little time to dust off the plan we had and implement it. After we do, I'm sure we'll find a thread in here complaining about how we changed it and it isn't fun anymore, but you can't please everyone. Rational discussion of those issues fits our mission better then some of the threads we've had.

B yond
March 6, 2009, 12:42 AM
Your topic was just the kind of topic that we want to have in S&T and I'm sorry that it was taken off track. I would rather have a discussion of your idea, then 10 threads on if this gun is better then that gun for defensive purposes.

Thank you Jeff.

I'm fine with having a bad idea; everyone does eventually. I just wish all the posters who pointed out the flaws would have done so in a civil and polite manner (and all but one or two did).

I think S&T is a great resource because it provides that feedback that comes from a different point of view. I honestly didn't see the flaws in my idea until they were pointed out to me. The trick is keeping it civil and maintaining an environment where we can all learn from each other.

That must be one tough forum to moderate. I truly appreciate all the hard work of the THR mods (even when I disagree with them). Thanks. :)

bikerdoc
March 6, 2009, 06:48 AM
I hang out mostly in Non firing weapons, knives and such, S/T can get a little to farfetched for me. Hope you guys can clean it up.

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