Pick 1 For Home Defense Gun


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sigbear
February 28, 2009, 10:41 AM
If you could pick only 1 of the 2, which would you pick for your "Home Defense Only Handgun"?, Both 4-4.5" barrel, u-pick your round.

9mm 16+1 rounds HP

.45 ACP, 8+1 rounds HP

Other

Sigbear

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StorkPatrol
February 28, 2009, 11:33 AM
For a "home defense only" gun you are not limited in size like you would be for a carry gun. There is no reason you cant have a 13 round .45 or a 15 round 10mm or a 17 round .40. I predict a huge victory for "other" in this poll.
--Stork

geronimo509
February 28, 2009, 11:33 AM
Why not 13+1 of .45 HP http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88629&d=1228315979

threefeathers
February 28, 2009, 12:12 PM
J Frame with Laser sight in one hand, Surefire E-2 in other hand. Cell phone on after quick 911 call.

chris in va
February 28, 2009, 01:04 PM
Whatever you shoot best. Sometimes it's my Sig 220, other times I leave my CZ 75 out on the stand.

benderx4
February 28, 2009, 01:06 PM
Home defense? Here's mine:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3535/3314109414_abdd2f6f54.jpg?v=0

One for upstairs, one for downstairs. 12+1 of beautiful 45acp JHP.

Myles
February 28, 2009, 01:34 PM
If I only had one choice for Home Defense, it would not be a handgun.

possum
February 28, 2009, 01:42 PM
i agree the only reason for my hd handgun is to fight my way to my shotgun.

but if it is between the two that you have listed i would take the higher capacity of the 9mm.

woodchuck315
February 28, 2009, 01:48 PM
anything .45acp for a handgun. Good chance intruders could be hopped up on drugs. .45acp has the knockdown to lay them on their ass, and allow you to at least stand a chance. Inner city? .44 mag or larger.

but Primary weapon would be a HD 12ga.

Since I only have a pretty sporting 12ga, Id grab my 1911, or if time was an issue, my Kel-Tec P-11 is always chambered with a full mag (11 rounds total). And, its on my nightstand or on my person.

and the 12ga better be a pump. The sound of a 12 ga pump racking (hard and fast) should scare away any intruder that values life. I racked my shotgun (empty) one day and my brother about messed himself. He agreed anyone hearing that would run....

grimjaw
February 28, 2009, 02:04 PM
Five 12G 00 buck, and two earplugs.

jm

1911shooter
February 28, 2009, 02:31 PM
I had to say other for the fact that my nightstand table is a SIG Sauer P226 with a 20 round magazine and x200 weapon light. stocked with 115gr +P+ ammo.

jeepmor
February 28, 2009, 02:37 PM
For the tight quarters of typical suburbia or apartment living nowadays, the shotgun offers the best option, not a bullet tosser.

jeepmor

Nicky Santoro
February 28, 2009, 02:47 PM
My HD gun is a 1911 with JHPs. I did this because when I made that decision my familiarity with handguns was solely with the 1911 which I carried in the Army. I don't regret the decision but, having to do it over again, and knowing what I know now, I'd go with a K frame S&W in .357 loaded with 125gr JHPs.
Sometimes less is more. That being said, I sleep well with the 1911 in the night stand.

Deanimator
February 28, 2009, 03:02 PM
For the tight quarters of typical suburbia or apartment living nowadays, the shotgun offers the best option, not a bullet tosser.
In the ACTUALLY "tight quarters" of my real apartment, a non-NFA long gun is nearly worthless. I might as well depend upon a naginata.

A handgun is not ALWAYS the best choice.
A shotgun is not ALWAYS the best choice.

Telling total strangers in absolute terms what to use for home defense without even seeing a PICTURE of THEIR home is as ill-advised as planning an infantry attack without seeing the objective or even consulting a map.

Operations orders include the Essential Elements of FRIENDLY Information for a reason.

Boats
February 28, 2009, 03:04 PM
I needed an "all of the above" My nightstander is a Beretta PX-4 9mm with 20+1 147gr JHP rounds at the ready, mainly because the thing mounts a Streamlight.

However, the desk drawer in my home office, where I spend a lot of time, is packing a full size Colt Government Model with 8+1 230gr JHPs and an extra mag. I also have a .357 Magnum and a speedloader stashed in the garage.

I have 12ga shotguns in the closet both in the master bedroom and the office. The handguns are only to make it to those.

glockman19
February 28, 2009, 03:06 PM
While I have 9mm & 45's IMHO If I had only one gun for Home Defense It woulod be a revolver in .357 or .44 mag.

CWL
February 28, 2009, 03:19 PM
I chose "other", as long as it's in 12 gauge.

In my home, a shotgun is the best choice.

Deanimator
February 28, 2009, 03:28 PM
In my home, a shotgun is the best choice.
All things being equal, if you think it is, it probably is.

But what do you know, you just live there... :rolleyes:

Deanimator
February 28, 2009, 03:31 PM
My home defense guns are my CCW guns, whichever I've carried that day.

I've got an Ithaca riotgun and an AR carbine, but in my present home, they're a waste of time. Were I to move, that could change.

CountGlockula
February 28, 2009, 03:32 PM
.40S&W baby!

10-Ring
February 28, 2009, 07:11 PM
Still depends on the firearm -- but on a night in, night out basis -- I'd go w/ a Colt 1911 for my 45 acp 8+1

psyopspec
February 28, 2009, 07:36 PM
If you could pick only 1 of the 2, which would you pick for your "Home Defense Only Handgun"?

Which can I shoot with the best balance of accuracy and rapidity?

Poor East Texan
February 28, 2009, 07:45 PM
Other.

Rem 870 18" w/#4 buck.

76shuvlinoff
February 28, 2009, 07:48 PM
These days in MY home the .45 is the "one gun" that escorts me to the 870.

L-Frame
February 28, 2009, 08:04 PM
Ruger GP-100 with buffalo bore 158 +p's.

earlthegoat2
February 28, 2009, 09:46 PM
Shotgun, 12 or 20ga with buckshot of some persuasion.

rbernie
February 28, 2009, 10:41 PM
BHP stocked with 147gr HPs for walkin' around and a 19" Browning Auto5 stocked with Fed LE buck for barricadin' the sleeping quarters.

1SOW
February 28, 2009, 11:49 PM
I'd use #4 shot to lower the collateral damage.

2nd choice: High-cap 9mm in case I overlooked someone.

At night I don't want lights near me.

Guitargod1985
March 1, 2009, 12:16 AM
http://www.naaminis.com/pix/shortNEW.jpg

This^

I'd use #4 shot to lower the collateral damage.


But seriously, I think this is a bad idea. #4 shot's penetration may not be adequate to incapacitate an attacker, but WILL still penetrate through several layers of dry wall.
Any projectile or shot that possesses enough velocity and/or mass to pose a high probability of incapacitation to the attacker is going to carry the risk of penetrating a wall or two or three.
Likewise, if the shot/bullet exhibits minimal penetrtion through drywall it will likely not have sufficient penetration in the aggressor. Otherwise, we'd all use BB guns for HD, right?

Personally, I keep a Stoeger Cougar 8000 next to the bed, loaded with 124 gr JHPs, and I keep the Mossberg 500 nearby, loaded with 2 3/4" 00 Buckshot.

Bishop26
March 1, 2009, 12:25 AM
Well I do have a HD hand gun in 9 mm 14 rounds. But I have a family and have been putting alot of thought into getting a short barrel for my Shotgun. and putting number 6 shot in it for HD. My 9mm corbons will go thru walls alot better than the number 6 and I dont want to shoot my kids thru a wall if I miss a badguy.

If you dont think number 6 will stop a badguy think other wise. I have seen a dead(bad)guy full of number 6 from 1 shot. He is a believer.

As for going thru walls certainly it will. It will lose its energy alot faster than the 9mm will though. If youve ever been dove hunting and had shot rain down on you from across the field you know this is true. A 9 mm coming from across the field would have hurt.

AKElroy
March 1, 2009, 12:25 AM
Rem 870 18" w/#4 buck.

Close to perfect, except I'll trade 3" #6 2 oz turkey loads for the 4 buck. In close quarters, it's devatstating.

ACBMWM3
March 1, 2009, 04:44 AM
My rem. 870 or one of the 40SW by my bedside.

Zach S
March 1, 2009, 06:15 AM
Although I carry a 1911, I use a Glock 19 w/ an M3 for HD. Its my beater pistol, so it stays out most of the time. Its a rare occasion that it sees the inside of my safe.

If I had a 1911 with a light rail, or an XD45, I'd use it instead.

I never can seem to find an XD45 when I have money. Now that I'm broke, I'm sure there are a few local gunshops with decent deals on 5" XD45s without the thumbsafties.

If I only had one choice for Home Defense, it would not be a handgun.
Same here. While I sleep, my G19 is on the top shelf of my closet. But my AR15 is propped up in the corner.

johnnylaw53
March 1, 2009, 08:02 AM
think of the situration you talking about you get up in the middle of the night your only ammo will be what in your weapon that why I do for a beretta 9mm with the new 18 round mags. Any good high cap will do I just like the beretta.

be safe

Dr.Rob
March 1, 2009, 07:33 PM
There's no "all the above?"

Both work just fine. So would a .357 DA revolver. (Which is what I currently use.)

FMJMIKE
March 1, 2009, 08:50 PM
Why not 13 + 1..........Glock G-21 with nite sites.........:D
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/G21A.jpg

Boba Fett
March 1, 2009, 09:20 PM
45 ACP

You can get them with more than 8 round capacities.


And for minimizing the risks of over penetration, the 45 is a bit better than the 9mm.

Not knocking the 9mm. Perfectly good round. I love shooting it and am sure it will protect me if I needed to use it. But I have even more confidence in the 45.

Whichever you choose, get some good JHP ammo and practice with it so you are familiar with how it shoots and you can make sure it feeds well in your gun.




So would a .357 DA revolver.

I wouldn't recommend magnum rounds for your home defense. You run a high risk of blinding yourself at night after the first shot and considering how loud magnum rounds are, shooting them indoors will be deafening. Not that any round indoors isn't rough on the hearing, but the magnums are even worse. This isn't my opinion, this is what our CHL instructor (a very strict instructor and wife of a police officer) said when asked about using magnum rounds for home defense.

But if you get a revolver, get something like a J-Frame S&W in 357 mag. Then, when you use it for home defense, put 38 special in it. If you want to use it during the day for carry and such, put 357 mag in it. http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIB4.html

mavracer
March 1, 2009, 10:07 PM
I usually have a 8 shot 45 acp in my nightstand and would prefer that.But I've stuck my CZ 85 combat in there and still sleep like a baby.

Big Bill
March 1, 2009, 11:11 PM
I keep my Winchester Defender 12 gage, my SP101, my Ruger P89, and my Ruger LPC .380 ready and within my grasp at all times.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 1, 2009, 11:12 PM
Other: 12ga shotgun.

meef
March 2, 2009, 01:05 AM
How about the 15+1 of .45 in the FNP-45?

That's like your average 1911 with a reload already shoved in there.

:D

Guitargod1985
March 2, 2009, 03:20 AM
If you dont think number 6 will stop a badguy think other wise. I have seen a dead(bad)guy full of number 6 from 1 shot. He is a believer.


I didn't say #6 wouldn't stop an attacker. However, there are certainly many other options which would stop the home invader with a greater degree of reliability. What I meant to say is that you should go for the right tool for the job, which in my case is the most reliably incapacitating round I can think of that I own (00 Buck). Obviously, you have other considerations (wife/kids) besides raw power, and I respect that. Nobody wants to shoot the little ones, and if that risk can be minimized by using #6, so be it.

Duke of Doubt
March 2, 2009, 03:34 AM
Model 29 .44 Magnum.

I mean, why settle for less, if it's the HD gun? Sure, it's big and heavy. Sure, the target sights aren't all that practical for carry. But we're talking about a gunfight in your own fer chrissakes hallway. Use the real gun.

purebred
March 2, 2009, 03:37 AM
guncrafters industries .50
bigger is better IMHO

Turk
March 2, 2009, 08:28 AM
I grab the hand gun until I can get to the closet to get My SP-1 loaded with Sierra 55 gr. BlitzKing bullets.

Turk

Bill_Rights
March 2, 2009, 08:46 AM
As someone else already said, why not a "modern" .45 ACP with double-stacked hi-cap mag?

Mine is the FNP-45 w/ 14+1 personal defense JHPs.

Zach S
March 2, 2009, 09:22 AM
Why not 13 + 1..........Glock G-21 with nite sites........
Because the grip sucks...

Although, if I found a good deal on one, I would be tempted to snatch it up, fill the backstrap with acraglas, and sand it down to where its more comfortable...

gwnorth
March 2, 2009, 09:26 AM
Other - FNP-45, 14+1 rounds of 200gr Hornady TAP +p

Deanimator
March 2, 2009, 10:29 AM
Other - FNP-45, 14+1 rounds of 200gr Hornady TAP +p
Good luck finding any these days. I gave up after almost a month and bought 230gr. Gold Dots.

sohcgt2
March 2, 2009, 11:16 AM
I don't have much faith in 9mm, normally I would choose capacity over caliber but if the caliber 9mm or .380. Those are both cc calibers not home defence calibers.

ATAShooter
March 2, 2009, 04:10 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ATAShooter/100_0438.jpg

KevininPa
March 2, 2009, 05:58 PM
Other. 12g.

AKElroy
March 2, 2009, 06:13 PM
If you dont think number 6 will stop a badguy think other wise. I have seen a dead(bad)guy full of number 6 from 1 shot. He is a believer.

Amen. I have shot a number of different media with rifles/handguns/shotguns, from paper to glass to junkyard appliances to cactus to jackrabbits with every type of firearm & ammo including 3" 00, 000 and 4 buck. Hands down, the most destructive force I have seen inside 10 paces is with 3" #6 shot. Nothing comes close. At short distances, I could not have more confidence in any defensive tool. Shooting 00 buck at that distance will fully penetrate an attaker, meaning a lot of energy is waisted on whatever those BB's find to hit next. Plus, you will need good sights (that most scatterguns do not come equipped with) with buck shot as an inside the house shot will not likely open-up more than 2-3". The #6 transfers 100% of its 2 oz. load without over penetrating, patterns an 18" hole at 10 paces w/ my cylinder bore 18" 1300 defender, and I still have 5 more shots left. Set up whatever media you think simulates an attack at "in the house" distances, (wet newspaper, milk jugs, ballistic gel if you can afford it) and blaze away with your favorite handgun & shotgun loads at say 7 yards. Save the # 6 shot for last; you will have a "holy crap!" moment.

dpeticca
March 2, 2009, 06:18 PM
A shotgun and a 9mm. The 9mm is easier and cheaper to shoot. Those two factors will have a bigger impact on the outcome of a shooting than the caliper.

Remington 870 with 00 Buckshot, and a Glock 19 with 147 Grain Federal HST is all the home defense weaponry one could possibly need.

AKElroy
March 2, 2009, 06:43 PM
Remington 870 with 00 Buckshot, and a Glock 19 with 147 Grain Federal HST is all the home defense weaponry one could possibly need. Sure, but why stop when justifying more guns is so much fun?

What about civil unrest? Got to have at least one loaded 30 rnd mag for the requisite AK / AR; (and 10 more empty mags for each in the safe while I can get them), an accurate rimfire w/lots of ammo to keep the pot full should we reach "the end"; must have a long range gun to reach out & touch the 300 yrd freezer doe, must have a good bird getter autoloading 12 gage, must have a tactical 12 gage pump for defense, must have a few high-cap pistols in 9mm and .40 S&W while I can still get them, must have enough of all of the above for family & friends, must have must have...................I'm feeling a new thread coming on...

heavyshooter
March 2, 2009, 08:27 PM
I tried to get the best of both worlds.

Sig Sauer p226 - 15+1 rounds of 40 S&W

thunder173
March 2, 2009, 10:43 PM
.45,..it'll do to get me to a shotgun,....besides 9mm in close confines hurts my ears more than a
.45 does......

moooose102
March 3, 2009, 09:57 AM
actualy, the best hd gun is probably a short repeating shotgun. and it is very obvious that the 9mm way outsells 45acp's. but of the two, the 45 is a much better choice.

wankerjake
March 3, 2009, 10:02 AM
My opinion is that they are both good choices. There are many others as well (.40, .357/.38spl). I voted other.

PhiloebeddoUSA
March 3, 2009, 01:40 PM
Ditto the shotgun. Mossberg 500 pistol grips, new for under $300. 7 + 1 capacity. Hard to beat a 12 ga.

CoRoMo
March 3, 2009, 01:51 PM
Other.

12 gauge 870

1KPerDay
March 3, 2009, 02:03 PM
Why not 13+1 of .45 HP
Don't you mean 14+1? My Para-Ord P14-45 holds 14 in the mags... ;)

lgbloader
March 3, 2009, 02:22 PM
Para LDA 1911 Limited Hi Cap in 45 ACP Escort to my Decked out Remington 7-shot packed with 00 BUCK.

For back up - the wife will be packing her Berretta Vertec 9mm w/laser sites and one of the black rifles with many hi cap mags. She made expert serving 6 + 2 years in the military (M16) and is twice the shot I am with a pistol.

Woe to the fool that picks our house on the block....

LGB

Dobe
March 3, 2009, 02:45 PM
1911 everytime

yourotherleft
March 3, 2009, 02:46 PM
If I have to pick, I'll pick 9mm with more capacity, as you may not know how many intruder in your house. Unless you carry another mag in your pocket. Another reason for 9mm, it's still manageable for my wife to use.
You may want to consider revolver on one side of the bed and shotgun on the other.

ByAnyMeans
March 3, 2009, 06:14 PM
I would go with a 9mm 16+1.
I am guessing since this is a handgun sub-section shotguns are excluded. If not my home defense only gun would be a 12 gauge and my CCW pistol as back-up. Beauty of a Glock 26 is it like a Transformer. 10 rd. mag for pocket or light shirt carry, 12 round with more concealment clothing and a 15rd with spacer for at home.

yosarian
March 3, 2009, 07:59 PM
Glock 17 I trust my life and my families life to it everyday.

oneounceload
March 3, 2009, 08:24 PM
45acp has the knockdown to lay them on their ass, and allow you to at least stand a chance

If your gun can do that to the BG, it's also going to do it to you...laws of physics and all

I voted other, and if it HAD to be a handgun, it would be the highest capacity, biggest caliber I could shoot proficiently. Personally, I would prefer a .223 with a suppressor to keep my ears from bleeding......

TeamPrecisionIT
March 3, 2009, 08:44 PM
I voted for the .45 just to give a definitive answer to the poll, but I have to say, a suppressed 11-14" M4 5.56 w/ 25-30rds in the mag is the best in home defense gun you can possibly have at the ready, FA even better. Plenty of stopping power, not a whole lot of overpenetration after hitting the BG and easy to manipulate and make very accurate hits. Also can be used one handed if need be, albeit not with anywhere near the same accuracy, where a shotgun can be cumbersome.

Sure, shotguns are great at the job, too, but magazine capacity is limited when facing more then one BG. I understand that a shotgun shoots 9 or more 'rounds' each trigger pull, but ultimately it doesn't pack the same punch as 9 5.56 rounds.

Damian

Ala Dan
March 3, 2009, 08:49 PM
West German SIG-SAUER P220A or Springfield Armory XD-45 ACP~! ;) :D

ironvic
March 3, 2009, 10:34 PM
For HD, I use a Sig P-226. Sits right close, under the pillow. Sometimes, though, I switch to the S&W 686 Plus 7 shot revolver. I feel more than adequately protected by either gun and am a pretty good shot with each one.

BTW, my home is an RV (33' Class-A), so a shotgun seems just a tad long in tight quarters and I totally do not like 20 gauge or pistol gripped adjustable stocked models. When a SG is called for, I have an ex-LE Remington 870 (stoked with 00-Buck) with old school police walnut furniture and a short barrel. With that piece I feel more than adequately armed.

okespe04
March 4, 2009, 12:04 AM
.45 acp 30 rounds in a g21

Coronach
March 4, 2009, 12:53 AM
Once you meet some very basic criteria (mechanical reliability, a "minimal power" for the round which you can arbitrarily set for yourself, a reasonable capacity), you should go with one thing and one thing alone: which gun do you shoot the best?

Seriously. You can have a ninja'ed out 1911 with lights and lasers and super-dooper hollowpoints, if you can't shoot the blessed thing worth a darn, it's a worse choice for HD gun than the S&W j-frame loaded with wadcutters in your dresser drawer that you can reliably use to put two rounds COM on a silhouette target at 10'.

Once you get to a certain level of hardware performance, the software matters a lot more. 9mm vs .45 is a pointless debate.

Mike

matai
March 4, 2009, 01:26 AM
15+1 fnp 45

chieftain
March 4, 2009, 01:44 AM
12ga or 20 ga. I personally use 12ga for home defense inside. I use my XCR setup for home defense if I think the fight will go outside. First grab is for the ole' dog eared double barrel.

If I had only one weapon for home defense it would be a shotgun.

Either a pump, semi auto or double barrel.

I am presently using my double barrel hammer gun loaded with #1 Buck per FBI minimum shot size recommendation. If we get to reloads, they are double ought. All my pumps are in the safe, with my rifles and carbines.

Best advice from the FBI for a fighting weapon:

The cogent advice by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU should be routinely heeded:

“Experienced officers implicitly recognize...when potential violence is reasonably anticipated their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible.”

and

“...no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.”

This applies to ALL HOME OWNERS TOO.

Old adage, you get caught in a fight with a handgun, you go to a fight with a shoulder weapon.

My personal felt adage, a handgun is for convenience and a shoulder arm is for fighting.

This is the advice from folks with experience in gun fighting. Amateurs rely on handguns when they could have had a shoulder weapon. First home defense weapon must be a rifle/carbine or shotgun.

Please don't rationalize.

Go figure.

Fred

PT1911
March 4, 2009, 01:46 AM
home defense, hard to beat a shotgun....

357sigRog
March 4, 2009, 01:55 AM
Other, mine is a Glock 357sig. But some of the others are also right, it is hard to beat a shotgun with buckshot.

Ben86
March 4, 2009, 03:12 AM
If I had to choose only one gun for HD it would be a handgun because a shotgun is quite cumbersome as a "first response" weapon to the initial bump in the night.

If I had to choose between a hi-cap 9mm and 8 round .45 of course I would choose the hi-cap 9mm because the 9mm is not far behind the .45. And with twice the firepower the highcap 9mm has much more potential stopping power. Why not have a hi-cap .45? Best of both worlds.

chieftain
March 4, 2009, 04:15 AM
If I had to choose only one gun for HD it would be a handgun because a shotgun is quite cumbersome as a "first response" weapon to the initial bump in the night.

These are the rationalizations I was talking about. If the “bump” in your home, your ground, is such that you believe you must respond armed, TAKE A SHOULDER WEAPON.


If I had to choose between a hi-cap 9mm and 8 round .45 of course I would choose the hi-cap 9mm because the 9mm is not far behind the .45. And with twice the firepower the highcap 9mm has much more potential stopping power. Why not have a hi-cap .45? Best of both worlds.

Now explain to me how a shoulder weapon is to cumbersome, then you worry about fire power? You done screwed up that argument when you chose to respond with a handgun, like an amateur.

If you are on your home ground, you need to own it and know it. If you need to be armed, then have a rifle, carbine or shotgun. Take the firepower you need, not some weak cheese handgun.

No handgun has anywhere near the “stopping power” of your fighting rifles, carbines or shotguns.

This ain't the movies or TV, this is real life. Take a shoulder weapon.

Amateurs.

Go figure.

Fred

PT1911
March 4, 2009, 02:15 PM
:neener:Robin Hood it.. go with a longbow

but seriously, shotgun is the way to go. in the LIKELYHOOD that this confrontation is taking place at night you would be better off with a "scatter" gun so it is point and shoot rather than attempting to take aim with a handgun. Not to mention the variety of rounds available for a shotgun. even the cheap birdshot would result in a dabilitating injury at close range. Not to mention the characteristic sound of a pump shotgun... I dont know about you, but in the dark, in someone elses house, that sound would be enough to send this dudes testes to each side of his Adam's apple.. :what:

Dollar An Hour
March 4, 2009, 04:03 PM
handgun, pfft...

It's got to be a long gun or shotgun if you really want to stop the threat. Life isn't like the movies where bad guys fall instantly from a pistol round.

PT1911
March 4, 2009, 04:11 PM
but I bet buck-shot or a 12 gauge slug to the chest would to the trick...:eek:

chieftain
March 4, 2009, 04:59 PM
RE: Use of Birdshot for a firefight.

From the files of John Farnam:

Bird Shot?

24 Oct 07

Birdshot for defense? This is from an LEO, and one of our instructors, in WY:
"One occasionally hears the suggestion that birdshot, from a shotgun, is an effective home-defense load. The argument is that is won't penetrate excessively, that it is 'effective' at close range, ad nauseam.

I'm currently involved in a murder investigation that has convinced me, beyond all doubt, that the use of birdshot as a defense load is a poor idea indeed!

Our perpetrator, in a high state of intoxication, decided to settle an old score with the victim. After informing the victim of his intentions, he armed himself with an old, Winchester M97 and charged the tube with WW, full-power, 9-pellet, 00 buckshot. Meanwhile, the victim locked himself in his auto-repair shop, and, anticipating the confrontation, also armed himself with, of all things, another Winchester M97, but he charged his tube with low-brass, #6 birdshot. The evidence suggests that the victim didn't know much about guns in general, shotguns in particular, and virtually nothing about shotgun ammunition. He obviously thought 'ammunition is ammunition.'

The lethal confrontation took place in the repair shop, with the two combatants separated by less than two meters.

The perpetrator opened festivities by using his shotgun to blow the lock off a locked door. It took two rounds of buckshot. The lock was demolished, and the door blown open.
There was a refrigerator just inside the door, and the victim was a few feet away, on the other side. As the perpetrator advanced, the victim fired one round at him. His aim was poor, and most of the lead shot hit (and failed to penetrate) the refrigerator door. A few struck the perpetrator in the face, destroying his right eye.

The startled perpetrator pulled his head back but immediately rolled back out from behind the refrigerator and fired a single shot. All nine pellets of 00 buckshot struck the victim in the center of his torso. The victim probably suffered a fatal injury, falling where he was hit. The perpetrator then walked over to the victim, who was laying on his back, and fired a second shot into his face from only a few inches. The victim's head was blown to pieces. When we found the body, he was, long since, DRT!

Our perpetrator then walked out the shop, got in his truck, and drove nearly one hundred miles to the small, ranching community where he lived. Only when his eye injury was pointed out to him, as well as the fact that his shirt and trousers were soaked in blood (mostly his own), did he grudgingly concede that he might need medical attention. Hours later, we arrested him at the hospital where he sought aid. He is now on trial for murder and will most likely spend the rest of his life, with only one eye, in prison.
Just another local idiot who had too much liquid courage!"

Comment: When it is your intention to defend yourself successfully, particularly against evil and determined individuals, you're well advised to use a weapon and load that will end the fight quickly and decisively. And, and you better be an adequate marksman too, as you'll likely not get a second chance!

It's an age-old lesson that this victim learned the hard way. Unhappily, he didn't live long enough to put his new-found knowledge to work!

/John Farnam

If you are planning to fight a shotgun, at least have ammunition designed for fighting on board. Per the FBI's recommendation that would be #1 Buckshot or heavier.

But it is America, you get to choose. You can choose to use effective ammunition proved to work over the years by experienced gun fighters.

OR

You can use ammunition that you THINK will do something that it wasn't designed to do, to someone who is trying to do damage to you or your loved ones.

Then after that fantasy is discussed, the same folks then argue 9mm vs 40 S&W vs 45acp and think it matters. What is wrong with this picture?

Go figure.

Fred

ironvic
March 5, 2009, 02:25 AM
The account describing the shooting in the auto shop TOTALLY MISSES THE POINT, Birdshot may have pulled it off, if the victim had been a better shot. If only the right eye of the attacker was destroyed, the shot landed on target with only the outer edge of the pattern connecting with the assailant.

Nice try, but show me some real evidence, 2 shots center of mass, 1 shooter using birdshot and one using buckshot-who drops first? This anecdote doesn't prove anything except that the best shot wins. May he rot in prison forever.

BrokenButterfly
March 5, 2009, 02:35 AM
Tommy Gun

chieftain
March 5, 2009, 04:03 AM
The account describing the shooting in the auto shop TOTALLY MISSES THE POINT, Birdshot may have pulled it off, if the victim had been a better shot. If only the right eye of the attacker was destroyed, the shot landed on target with only the outer edge of the pattern connecting with the assailant.

Nice try, but show me some real evidence, 2 shots center of mass, 1 shooter using birdshot and one using buckshot-who drops first? This anecdote doesn't prove anything except that the best shot wins. May he rot in prison forever.

Guess the FBI recommendation is not compelling enough.

No doubt your combat experience is such that we should all follow it.

Go figure.

Fred

ThrottleJockey
March 5, 2009, 05:44 AM
"Tommy Gun"

Uh, that's gotta be one of the dumbest things I've ever read. What is a "Tommy Gun"? Do you mean a Thompson? Which one, I'm not sure, but I think they've made quite a few different models? For home defense, do you think you could really afford the price tag, not to mention the special licensing and the cost of feeding it? Sort of defeats the purpose of HD doesn't it? I won't even mention the legal ramifications, even with proper paperwork(oops, I just did).

RSABear
March 5, 2009, 07:19 AM
The best home defense gun is the one that you can get hold of when one or more of "them" has entered your home or has set off your external alarm system zones. I have several firearms, three children and 4 adults living in my home. Intruders are going to run into either my Walther P99 in one end of the house, a Browning HP in another or a .38 Spl when I in my out-buildings. The only time I am armed with a Mini14 or Shotgun is when I'm returning from the range. Recently a club member has taken out an armed robber with a 454 Casual when I retured home from the shooting range, the robber was armed with a fully automatic AK-47 which failed to fire.

Pick ONE - I take my Walther P99 9mmP

BrokenButterfly
March 5, 2009, 02:12 PM
"Tommy Gun"

Uh, that's gotta be one of the dumbest things I've ever read. What is a "Tommy Gun"? Do you mean a Thompson? Which one, I'm not sure, but I think they've made quite a few different models? For home defense, do you think you could really afford the price tag, not to mention the special licensing and the cost of feeding it? Sort of defeats the purpose of HD doesn't it? I won't even mention the legal ramifications, even with proper paperwork(oops, I just did). I think you are just mad about something...not my problem. If tommy gun (which is obviously the same as a chicago typewriter which is the same as a thompson, multiple names) is not an acceptable answer (even as a joke) then the best choice for home defense is a shotgun. Easy to use, just point and shoot--even if you are a little shaky because of adrenaline the buckshot will make up for it.
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/PA-1TH_t.html

WAIT! You didn't even mention what you would use. I think you are definetly just mad about something dumb.

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 02:32 PM
Out of a BUNCH of handguns I own , my HD favorite is my EAA Witness Elite Match in 10mm --- holds 15 rds. and is a lot slimmer then my Hi-Cap Para-Ordnances.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC01537.jpg

PT1911
March 5, 2009, 02:34 PM
Those are pretty sweet!!! still vote shotgun for home defense though...

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 02:39 PM
Thanks PT ---- I would take a SG everytime over ANY handgun but I was playing along with the OP poll.

1KPerDay
March 5, 2009, 02:39 PM
gunfighter, what's up with the grips on those?

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 05:16 PM
I took them to a belt sander -- made them slimmer for my wittle hands !!!!

1KPerDay
March 5, 2009, 06:50 PM
Did you shorten the screws?

dbarile
March 5, 2009, 07:24 PM
Remington 870 pump or similar. Short barrel & some form of buckshot, pick you favorite, I like #1.

If you are upstairs and the bad guys downstairs, the sound of the action in the stairwell will probably be enough to send them packing.

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 08:33 PM
1KPDay -- no , I just tried to not sand around the grip holes.

420Stainless
March 5, 2009, 09:54 PM
20 Ga.

I forgot this is a handgun subject forum - in that case .45ACP

AKElroy
March 5, 2009, 09:56 PM
Rem 870 12 gage; 3" 2 oz #6.

MR.G
March 5, 2009, 10:45 PM
Between the 45 and the 9, I would take the higher capacity 9MM.
Either one is good for HD, if backed up by a shotgun.

ThrottleJockey
March 6, 2009, 01:25 AM
"I think you are just mad about something...not my problem. If tommy gun (which is obviously the same as a chicago typewriter which is the same as a thompson, multiple names) is not an acceptable answer (even as a joke) then the best choice for home defense is a shotgun. Easy to use, just point and shoot--even if you are a little shaky because of adrenaline the buckshot will make up for it.
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/PA-1TH_t.html

WAIT! You didn't even mention what you would use. I think you are definetly just mad about something dumb."

I'd pick the .45, everyone on here that's read my posts knows that i think 9mm is for women and sissys. j/k guys;) And "tommy gun" wasn't an option.

mordechaianiliewicz
March 6, 2009, 03:21 AM
While my primary home defense gun is a shotgun loaded down with "00" buck, and a bandoleer of spare ammo (though I would hate to be in a sitch that required more than 8 shots), I also have a 9mm pistol with a high-cap mag.

People have already done the whole long gun argument, so I won't go into here, but if you feel you must have a pistol for this, I always have believed it's best to go with the most ammo as opposed to the biggest round.

9mm is plenty deadly, and I'd rather have 16 rounds, and only need one or two, than need nine or ten rounds (or however many) and not have it. It doesn't matter how heavy or large your bullets are when you are reloading your weapon.

mgkdrgn
March 7, 2009, 11:01 AM
None of the above.

For HD, give me a cheap ugly used Rem 870 or Mossberg 500 12 gauge any day of the week.

Redneck with a 40
March 7, 2009, 12:10 PM
With the right bullet, 9mm is just fine. I'd prefer the reduced recoil, faster follow-up's and additional capacity of the 9mm.

wep45
March 7, 2009, 04:11 PM
S&w .38/.357

chieftain
March 7, 2009, 05:42 PM
If you don't really want the most stopping power, RE: not to use shoulder arms when they are clearly called for, what difference does it make which pistol you use?

But if you must:

Choose a RELIABLE platform/gun, that fits you, or can be reasonably modified to fit you (get the modifications done, do not put them off) Get it in the fighting caliber it was designed for, and choose one of the reliable bullets now available from the below lists in that caliber.

Prove it is reliable, with a minimum 1000 no ftf (failure to fire test) and you are good to go. (many professionals use a much higher count than 1000, to “proof” their weapons reliability. Every FTF counts, and each one requires starting at zero again. Yup, you smart guys will rationalize ammo, and operator errors out of the equation, don’t. They are ALWAYS part of the equation in a fighting weapon too. Whether you believe it or not)

Maintain your fighting weapons as if your life depends on it. One day not only your life, but the life of your loved ones may. Know how to clean your weapon properly. Understand that a cleaning is more than just a cleaning, it is an inspection, maintenance, cleaning and lubrication stop all rolled into one. Know how to maintain your chosen fighting weapon. Learn how to take it ALL THE WAY DOWN and build it all the way back up. (this is not idle work for grins and giggles. There are reasons.) Have the parts that break regularly on your particular weapon. Every gun has weak points, address them honestly and prepare for them. i.e. With a Glock, always have an additional tigger spring. And have additional parts and always additional recoil springs. I change the springs in my fighting weapons yearly, whether I should be shooting much or not.)

Get as much quality training as you can. Then do quality practice. (this does not include shooting bullseye's at your local range. I am not talking about recreational shooting.)

Quality serious practice, practice, practice.

If what caliber is still the question, you really do not understand the problem.

It is not rocket science, no matter how hard you try to make it so. But it is demanding and expensive. Even with an inexpensive gun.

Of course using a shoulder weapon, is the logical and rational move.

Go figure.

Fred

iscareliberalsandlikeit
April 18, 2009, 11:04 PM
I would choose the 45ACP because the chance of overpenetration of 9mm Luger. (home defense situation) If you don't have neighbors and know what's behind your target/walls. etc. Fine. Use a .308 for home defense. 98% of all firing situations end within 2 shots under 25 feet. Even with eight shots you're still ready for a couple more goons, at least, if you're a bad shot. For "most" a handgun from a size standpoint is easier to handle that a pump around corners and in tight hallways. If you properly train your spouse, (like in the case with mine) she'll shoot better than you will. lol :o

crunch
June 18, 2009, 02:40 PM
In the academy, they always told us to have at least 2 sets of handcuffs -- because bad guys always come in pairs. So...16 rounds of 9mm means at least 8 rounds each :)

remington79
June 18, 2009, 02:53 PM
I had to vote other. My 45 can use factory 13 round mags.

chieftain
June 18, 2009, 05:48 PM
For "most" a handgun from a size standpoint is easier to handle that a pump around corners and in tight hallways. If you properly train your spouse, (like in the case with mine) she'll shoot better than you will.


From Dr Gary Roberts:

NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

Taken from the above link:

The cogent advice by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU should be routinely heeded:
“Experienced officers implicitly recognize...when potential violence is reasonably anticipated their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible.”
and
“...no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.”


ASk yourself why you should not be following Agent Patrick's advice. You know something he doesn't. Your combat experience is so vastly superior?

We are talking about real life here, not TV or the movies. The fight if not averted will be short, brutal, much more brutal than you can imagine, and very deadly.

Get as ready as you can be BEFORE THE FIGHT, not after. Don't go to the BG, let the BG come to you, where you will have him on your prepared killing ground. Otherwise you are allowing the BG to choose where and how to engage you on your ground, giving the BG the intuitive. NOT SMART.

I know of no qualified or experienced authority that believes a handgun is easier to 'fight' in a CQB situation than a shoulder weapon of almost any kind. Or given the choice would choose one for a home defense fight.

Fact is it takes much more training, not less to deploy a handgun effectively. Remember this is real life, not the Movies or TV. Most folks have no training at all, and those with as much training as most LEO's are still desperately short of ability, training and quality practice.

So this is what many people here are advocating: deploy a known weak weapon that is MORE difficult to use in the fight you are about to have. What was the advantage you thought you had using a handgun? No competent professional I know would advise this line of action.

GET A SHOULDER ARM. GET TRAINING, as much as you can afford. A LOT OF QUALITY PRACTICE. (Not shooting at your square range for Grins and giggles) LEARN YOUR GROUND. PREPARE YOUR GROUND. DO YOUR RECON. and do it all before you need it, not after there has been a fight. Much of this will not cost a dime. Train your family based on their abilities too.

Mind set, training, quality practice, tactics, preparation, now let's talk about that shoulder weapon, use a handgun secondary to the shoulder arm if you like or need to.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt.

ChCx2744
June 18, 2009, 06:35 PM
I picked 9mm with 16+1 but...Why not 10mm with 15+1..? :)

Coltman 77
June 18, 2009, 06:48 PM
1989 Italian Beretta 92 with 15 +1 rds of 124 gr +P Federal HST.

Most accurate auto I've ever shot and uber reliable. No failures ever.

None. :D

GoodKat
June 18, 2009, 07:36 PM
You could have 16+1 in .40 with an XD(m)

bestseller92
June 18, 2009, 07:48 PM
I voted "Other" because my preferred bedside HD gun is a .357 Magnum revolver.

EOD Guy in VA
June 18, 2009, 11:00 PM
I choose other.
I like 40S&W as a nice middle ground that gives you more power than the 9mm and more magazine capacity than the 45ACP. e.g., my S&W M&P40 with a mag capacity of 15+1 Speer Gold Dots.

ljnowell
June 19, 2009, 12:18 AM
Glock 21, 13+1, Speer Gold Dots, handloaded by me.

MedWheeler
June 19, 2009, 12:20 AM
I own neither, but selected the .45 mostly out of intrigue; it's the one of the two I've never owned. I also assume that I'd have another loaded magazine near it at all times that I'd hopefully also grab..

johnnylaw53
June 19, 2009, 07:45 AM
I see the poll is kinda old but came back to life. The one thing I think should be remember HD can mean many things from the punk coming in the front door to being in the back yard shed. I think most times someone grab their weapon to check out something that went bump in the night we grab our weapon and light no extra magazines so a high cap pistol make a lot of sense to me you really won't need it but better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.

be safe

ljnowell
June 19, 2009, 09:57 AM
ASk yourself why you should not be following Agent Patrick's advice. You know something he doesn't. Your combat experience is so vastly superior?

We are talking about real life here, not TV or the movies. The fight if not averted will be short, brutal, much more brutal than you can imagine, and very deadly.

Get as ready as you can be BEFORE THE FIGHT, not after. Don't go to the BG, let the BG come to you, where you will have him on your prepared killing ground. Otherwise you are allowing the BG to choose where and how to engage you on your ground, giving the BG the intuitive. NOT SMART.

I know of no qualified or experienced authority that believes a handgun is easier to 'fight' in a CQB situation than a shoulder weapon of almost any kind. Or given the choice would choose one for a home defense fight.

Fact is it takes much more training, not less to deploy a handgun effectively. Remember this is real life, not the Movies or TV. Most folks have no training at all, and those with as much training as most LEO's are still desperately short of ability, training and quality practice.

So this is what many people here are advocating: deploy a known weak weapon that is MORE difficult to use in the fight you are about to have. What was the advantage you thought you had using a handgun? No competent professional I know would advise this line of action.

GET A SHOULDER ARM. GET TRAINING, as much as you can afford. A LOT OF QUALITY PRACTICE. (Not shooting at your square range for Grins and giggles) LEARN YOUR GROUND. PREPARE YOUR GROUND. DO YOUR RECON. and do it all before you need it, not after there has been a fight. Much of this will not cost a dime. Train your family based on their abilities too.

Mind set, training, quality practice, tactics, preparation, now let's talk about that shoulder weapon, use a handgun secondary to the shoulder arm if you like or need to.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt.


Do you ever get tires of hearing your own voice? YOu should try not sounding like a complete jerk and maybe someone may take you serious.

chieftain
June 19, 2009, 02:29 PM
Do you ever get tires of hearing your own voice? YOu should try not sounding like a complete jerk and maybe someone may take you serious.

Thank you for the name calling, that is in THEHIGHROADS best tradition. And over the years, many folks took me very seriously.

I am glad you are reading what I am sending.

If you notice my posts about most things are pretty consistent. Why, some one capable of critical thinking may ask?

BECAUSE THE BASICS OF THESE THINGS IN SHOOTING AND COMBAT DO NOT CHANGE. The may evolve, slowly, but they do not change quickly or much. No matter what TV program or movie you saw last week or what gun you just bought or want to buy this month.

Note that most of my posts reference many of the leading people and authorities in America on what ever the subject is at hand. Who would you recommend we quote? Some body "kool" or someone who is knowledgeable and experienced about gun fighting, ballistics, and such. Some one with REAL AND OFTEN EXTENSIVE COMBAT EXPERIENCE?

At one time one of my assignments in the military was as a Marine DI, this was after two years of combat. Repeating the same information for each new group of recruits was the norm, not the exception. Just cause I said it last week, doesn't mean that this week's crop of eager and ignorant minds needs that information too.

For the sake of this discussion, we will not discuss those who choose not to learn.

I approach it the same here on The High Road. Every week some body asks the same or similar questions. Some times with a different veneer, but essentially the same question. The answers don't change to keep some one ignorant of the facts of these things happy. I AIN'T A LIBERAL. I deal in facts. That is one very big reason I have survived all my firefights.

I guess some of you folks want answers that you agree with. It don't work that way in the real world. That is why the same guns and calibers tend to come to the fore, over and over again, basic tactics never change either. Time will tell us which of the NEW super guns will be the hot go to weapon in 10 or 20 years. It takes time. War does speed that process up a bunch, but doesn't cover all of the newer weapons that will succeed and those that will not do the mission as well.

The fundamentals never seem to change. Read Clausewitz, Napoleon, or Sun Tzu. The fundamentals don't change. Hence the tactical applications should not change either.

In fact many people like you do believe it is boring, “unKool“, or some other negative term. I don't.

If that makes me a “complete jerk“, Then I am an alive “Complete jerk“. My question is what does that make you? I will use the term uninformed, because we are on TheHighRoad, but most importantly, will we call you alive after your first firefight?

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt.

Tropical Buzz
June 19, 2009, 05:30 PM
woodchuck315
New Member

Good chance intruders could be hopped up on drugs. .45acp has the knockdown to lay them on their ass, and allow you to at least stand a chance.

Actually, no - it doesn't. No handgun has the "knockdown" to lay a man on his ass.

Col. Plink
June 19, 2009, 06:42 PM
Interesting; have both, keep the 12ga at the ready w/ a variety of loads from slugs to 000 to 00 to #4buck to 3" T-shot. 3" T-shot (at defense ranges) is a cost-effective alternative to #4buck, which ballistics show to have the greatest penetration/quantity of pellets (T shot: 41 .20cal pellets in 3" cartridges!). Bango!

That, and my .45 holds 16...

ljnowell
June 19, 2009, 07:02 PM
Thank you for the name calling, that is in THEHIGHROADS best tradition. And over the years, many folks took me very seriously.

I am glad you are reading what I am sending.

If you notice my posts about most things are pretty consistent. Why, some one capable of critical thinking may ask?

BECAUSE THE BASICS OF THESE THINGS IN SHOOTING AND COMBAT DO NOT CHANGE. The may evolve, slowly, but they do not change quickly or much. No matter what TV program or movie you saw last week or what gun you just bought or want to buy this month.

Note that most of my posts reference many of the leading people and authorities in America on what ever the subject is at hand. Who would you recommend we quote? Some body "kool" or someone who is knowledgeable and experienced about gun fighting, ballistics, and such. Some one with REAL AND OFTEN EXTENSIVE COMBAT EXPERIENCE?

At one time one of my assignments in the military was as a Marine DI, this was after two years of combat. Repeating the same information for each new group of recruits was the norm, not the exception. Just cause I said it last week, doesn't mean that this week's crop of eager and ignorant minds needs that information too.

For the sake of this discussion, we will not discuss those who choose not to learn.

I approach it the same here on The High Road. Every week some body asks the same or similar questions. Some times with a different veneer, but essentially the same question. The answers don't change to keep some one ignorant of the facts of these things happy. I AIN'T A LIBERAL. I deal in facts. That is one very big reason I have survived all my firefights.

I guess some of you folks want answers that you agree with. It don't work that way in the real world. That is why the same guns and calibers tend to come to the fore, over and over again, basic tactics never change either. Time will tell us which of the NEW super guns will be the hot go to weapon in 10 or 20 years. It takes time. War does speed that process up a bunch, but doesn't cover all of the newer weapons that will succeed and those that will not do the mission as well.

The fundamentals never seem to change. Read Clausewitz, Napoleon, or Sun Tzu. The fundamentals don't change. Hence the tactical applications should not change either.

In fact many people like you do believe it is boring, “unKool“, or some other negative term. I don't.

If that makes me a “complete jerk“, Then I am an alive “Complete jerk“. My question is what does that make you? I will use the term uninformed, because we are on TheHighRoad, but most importantly, will we call you alive after your first firefight?

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt.


Call them like I see them. As to who we should quote, perhaps you, as you seem to believe your knowledge to be second to none. Dont pull the high road routine after you use such pathetic attempts at sarcasm.

People cant always have the perfect sidearm, and people cant always control the situation. Your argument of no handgun is ever sufficient and if you dont use a long gun you are stupid, and stupid should hurt, is plain stupid in itself.

The perfect gun is one that someone is comfortable using and can deploy effectively. Whether that is a BHP or a 12 gauge riot gun.

Big_John1961
June 19, 2009, 07:06 PM
I'd choose the higher capacity 9mm or just use my S&W 686 Plus. I like the idea of a .357 as a man-stopper.

chieftain
June 20, 2009, 03:04 AM
Let us parse your wisdom.


Call them like I see them.

Just what do you see? I don’t see it.


As to who we should quote, perhaps you, as you seem to believe your knowledge to be second to none.

Well who do you quote? Frankly if I thought my knowledge was second to none, I wouldn’t be quoting the folks I do. You have yet to let us know where your combat and CQB knowledge comes from. Who do you or would you quote?

Although I do have quite a bit of knowledge and experience on both subjects, I am not an expert like the folks I quote are. Maybe you know much better and smarter folks to reference with vastly more combat and CBQ knowledge and research knowledge and experience in terminal ballistics than the folks I quoted. My years of combat are only anecdotal experience of course. But they are very real and are mine. No doubt your experience is much more pervasive useful than mine, and no doubt vastly superior.


Dont pull the high road routine after you use such pathetic attempts at sarcasm.

Please help me understand the pathetic attempts. You insult, abuse, accuse and attempt to bully, but bring nothing of substance. That is not what The High Road stands for. I will not do that.

Use your experience, knowledge, and logic. Make an argument.


People cant always have the perfect sidearm, and people cant always control the situation.

That is EXACTLY why a shoulder arm should be used, when ever possible. YES! The shoulder weapon will be much more effective in getting out of control situation, into control than any sidearm. THAT IS THE POINT!


Your argument of no handgun is ever sufficient and if you dont use a long gun you are stupid, and stupid should hurt, is plain stupid in itself.

I have yet to say or even imply that anyone is stupid. But if you have a choice, a shoulder arm is almost always the vastly superior choice. If you had a choice, like the OP suggests.

Why would anyone given a choice, choose a weapon, the handgun in this case, that is harder to deploy properly, who's ballistic's are less effective, and needs more training and practice to use effectively if there is a choice?


The perfect gun is one that someone is comfortable using and can deploy effectively. Whether that is a BHP or a 12 gauge riot gun.

I have several of both (down to only three highpowers right now). In any fight, or probable choice I would follow the expert fighters advice, the expert terminal Ballistics researchers advice, and my own extensive combat experience, and choose the shoulder weapon.

I know very few folks that can deploy a handgun better than any shotgun I am aware of. (short of medical/strength reasons)

So given the choice why would someone make or take the inferior weapon?

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

ljnowell
June 20, 2009, 03:27 AM
I know very few folks that can deploy a handgun better than any shotgun I am aware of. (short of medical/strength reasons)


I dont know that i could say the same. I shoot about 100 rounds out of 12 gauge a year. Mostly playing with the guys or a little small game action for fun (or critter extermination). I shoot at least 100-150 rounds a week out of my g21. I handload and shoot every thursday night with a group of friends. I would have to say that in the bump in the middle of the night that I would feel more comfortable with my g21. I know it will get the job done, if I do my part.

burningsquirrels
June 20, 2009, 08:32 AM
remington 11-87 in 8+1. first shot is a non-lethal bag. the rest are #4s, then 00s, then slugs. there's a 19+1 9mm in close reach as well. alarm system that calls the cops is easier to hit one button than dialing 911 and getting a busy signal and then dialing again and getting someone that doesn't speak english. :eek:

ljnowell
June 20, 2009, 03:27 PM
remington 11-87 in 8+1. first shot is a non-lethal bag. the rest are #4s, then 00s, then slugs. there's a 19+1 9mm in close reach as well. alarm system that calls the cops is easier to hit one button than dialing 911 and getting a busy signal and then dialing again and getting someone that doesn't speak english.

Would you really want your first round to be a non lethal bag? I mean, I would guess that a home invaders gun wouldnt be loaded with less than lethal ammo.

theNoid
June 20, 2009, 03:42 PM
Probably not the best answer for an autoloaders forum but I just won't rely on an autoloader for defensive purposes of any kind. I would probably opt for nice SxS pistol-gripped coach gun in 12g or 20g and back it up with a revolver of sometype loaded with defense purpose ammo.

Don't get me wrong, I do love shooting semi's but if I were so worried about defense of any kind, then I want as much reliability as possible.

Noidster

GoodKat
June 21, 2009, 02:41 AM
I would probably opt for nice SxS pistol-gripped coach gun in 12g or 20g and back it up with a revolver of sometype loaded with defense purpose ammo.
Wow that's REALLY old school. A coach gun? Why not a pump? I can see using a revolver, especially an 8 shot .357(as long as you could hit them).

Poor East Texan
June 21, 2009, 07:28 PM
This is a really wonderful subject.

All the serious discussions....

If the dogs don't keep the bad guys away, or the bad guys trip over said dogs, I still say 12g pump gun with in my case #4 BUCK.

I would not feel all that bad holding a 1911 however.

Would be rather awful to mess up my walls and such though.

So dogs, do your stuff!

tactikel
June 21, 2009, 08:36 PM
Home defense tools:
cell phone to call 911
xenon flashlight to identify intruder
870 with #4 buckshot
xd-45 (13+1 gold dots) if above fails :evil:

jhco
June 21, 2009, 10:50 PM
Once again the answer to the caliber question is always .45acp

1SOW
June 22, 2009, 01:01 AM
I shoot my CZ 9mm a lot, and can grab point and shoot in minimal light in a hurry. If my P239 9mm is closer, that will do too.

I won't turn on a flashlight. I won't run to my closet for the Sweet Sixteen.

If I can: I'll run AWAY---with my gun.

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