[Abominable No-Man]

I ran across this whilst looking for something earlier. It's a membership application for the VFW that my grandfather received after demobilizing in 1945.

Now, one of the facts of the 2nd Amendment is that it is intended that people be guaranteed the RKBA in case they need to put the government that has become repressive out of business.

Something bugs me about the first part of this oath; just sounds.............wrong. Well read it and you tell me; I'm not a conspiracy guy, but.....

OBLIGATION
"In the presence of Almighty God, I do, of my own free will and accord, solemnly promise and declare that: I will bear true allegiance to the Government of the United States of America, and I will always be loyal thereto, and will never bear arms, nor in any way use my influence against its Laws or Institutions."

(The oath we in the Armed Forces swear by is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.)

Well, what do you think? Paranoia or am I reading too much into it? Or do I just need another cup of coffee?

ANM

[DigitalWarrior]

Guess what oath I will not take.

[Sodbuster]

just sounds.............wrong.
You mean the part about bearing allegiance to the government instead of to the Constitution and The People. It sounds wrong because it is wrong.

[Triad]

I wonder what the explanation for that is?

[MeekandMild]

About the time Clinton was chasing tail around Little Rock one of my friends tried to get me to join the VFW. He said it was a great organization. Well I agreed that the members were really nice folks and as an organization it has a purpose to help veterans out.

But I never could get over the distinctly leftist tone of its politics. Nowadays it would be considered centrist, which shows just how far to the left American politics has swung.

[Psssniper]

Is there similar wording in the NRA bylaws?? Seems I remember reading something like that somewhere. I think it's purpose would be to make the Guvmint happy that we promise not to be bad guys and overthrow them.

[rick314]

If you read it carefuly it says you are not to bear arms against America


OBLIGATION
"In the presence of Almighty God, I do, of my own free will and accord, solemnly promise and declare that: I will bear true allegiance to the Government of the United States of America, and I will always be loyal thereto, and will never bear arms, nor in any way use my influence against its Laws or Institutions."


BTW
I found most VFW filled with a bunch of mad drunks.

Some good, good people too, but man o man

[Abominable No-Man]

It says that you will not bear arms against the Government. IMO, that's not the same thing as against America. Opposite side of the coin compared to the oath I swore when I enlisted (I posted it earlier, and I will do so here again for clarity).

"I (state your name) do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the
Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic..........."

Different wording.
Spooky.

Things that make you go hmmmmm......

ANM:scrutiny:

[BluesBear]

When I was 5 years old, (1960) my next door neighbor tried to get my DAD to join the VFW. He went to a few meetings as a guest but when they tried to get him to take that oath he walked out.

I sure miss him.

[C.R.Sam]

Wonder if that was worded that way under pressure from the FDR socialist cadre.?

Or innocently written by someone with little knowledge of the Constitution and what it means....as a whole and in it's parts.

Sam

[45King]

Above all, the United States of America is an idea based on the ideals of equal rights for all, guranteeing freedom for all, fully recognized by our government. It is to those ideals that we should swear faithful allegiance, and not to a government or a peice of cloth.

[berettaman]

Before being able to join the VFW and take their oath,you should have allready taken an oath to uphold the constitution while in the military.The constitution says that when the government becomes no longer of,for and by the people it is no longer the government and must be replaced.I'm no lawyer but it seems that your VFW oath becomes nill and void upon the moment the government no longer abides by it own constitution.???

[Detachment Charlie]

I never got far enough to even review the oath. A few months after returning from my second tour in the Southeast Asia War Games, I asked at the local post about joining and was told by the Commander, or Grand Poobah or whoever, "You guys aren't welcome here." That was in 1970, the last time I ever set foot in a VFW post and to this day I wouldn't even whizz in the general direction if a post was on fire.:cuss: :fire: :cuss:

[JimJD]

"In the presence of Almighty God, I do, of my own free will and accord, solemnly promise and declare that: I will bear true allegiance to the Government of the United States of America, and I will always be loyal thereto, and will never bear arms, nor in any way use my influence against its Laws or Institutions."
A chill ran up my spine when I read that one...:eek:
Detachment Charlie, same thing happened to some of my family members at their local post.
Every couple of years I hear about something like that. :(

[Phil Ca]

I have been a member of the VFW since 1967 and do not remember taking any oath. That version of an oath would have sent uo warning flags to me.

My first VFW Post was names after a fallen soldier in Vietnam (Larry F. Pierce Post 9713, Daly City,Ca) There was never a problem with being a Vietnam vet and I was there for several years. There was a problem with some alcoholic members which eventually caused me to drop out. If anyone is looking for a VFW Post, ask if they have an open bar at every function. If they do it may mean that they have a number of alcoholics.



:cool:

[Quartus]

Or innocently written by someone with little knowledge of the Constitution and what it means....as a whole and in it's parts.


That would be my guess, since that's the normal state of Americans, and it's been that way for a hundred years, AT LEAST.



My experience with the VFW is that it's a drinking club. Sometimes they do parades and funerals. Haven't seen any value in it, but I'd be glad to be wrong.


The CONCEPT is great.

[swingset]

I'd never swear allegiance to a government, nor would I swear not to bear arms against it.

History, that great teacher, forbids me.

[BluesBear]

I pledge allegiance, to the flag of The United States Of America and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL.


period

end of story

nuff said

[Carlos]

I made that pledge too, BluesBear, a long time ago when it meant something.

Now, I begin to wonder about this wonderful government of mine.

[dinosaur]

A lot of us VNVs quit the VFW when they had Willie Jeff as the keynote speaker for their 100th Anniv.:barf:

[Jmurman]

thats bizarre. I wonder if it is still the oath? or if it has changed since you father joined?

[BHPshooter]

I'm sorry, but what is the VFW?

And yes, that oath is not good... not good at all.

Wes

[Quartus]

Veterans of Foreign Wars

They are a private organization for veterans that exists as an excuse for old vets to hang out and tell war stories and drink. They claim to work on behalf of veteran's concerns, but I'm not aware of them actually doing much of anything. At the national level they may, but every local chapter I've seen is just a drinker's club.


http://www.vfw.org/

[pax]

This thread isn't directly gun-related, but being a veteran definitely is. ;)

Still, just so I don't get accused of favoritism or whatever, I'm going to throw this one over to Legal & Political, because the point being discussed is very definitely related to civil liberties... making it entirely and beyond a doubt on topic for L&P.

pax

[Abominable No-Man]

Sorry, pax. I shoulda put it there to begin with.

ANM

[pax]

ANM,

No worries -- it was a judgement call.

BluesBear -- not quite nuff said. Are you saying that we've all already pledged allegiance to the gov't by pledging allegiance to the Republic? or are you saying that you'll pledge to the Republic, but not to the gov't of the Republic? :confused:

pax

[Brian Dale]

"... nor in any way use my influence against its Laws or Institutions." Now that's scary. Not vote? not speak? not run for office against an incumbent nor take part in campaigns?

As chief executive, the President is charged with enforcing the laws, through his subordinates in the many departments of the executive branch. His oath of office is to the Constitution, not to whatever the existing laws might be, nor to the elected officeholders and employees who work in the government. If his oath of office is thus, given the nature of his job, then how much sense does it make for the regular citizens who hire him and hire the Congress to take an oath not even to use their influence against laws or institutions?

With regard to the oath's author: The road to Where is paved with good intentions?

Edited to add: pax, government officials work for you and for me, not the other way 'round. Unwavering loyalty to the Constitution is expected and required of them, and loyalty to their voters is a part of the deal for elected officials. My loyalty to them is a favor that can be earned, and it will be granted for as long as their actions merit such loyalty.

[Abominable No-Man]

You're reading too much into it.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands", means that you have pledged your loyalty to
A) the Flag, and B) The Republic (which, IMO, ultimately is a lifestyle, enforced by minimal legislation) A Republic can have a bad government.

So by my way of thinking, that means to the concept of government as originally conceived by the Founding Fathers, who DID, BTW throw in that thing in there about removing a corrupt government by force, if necessary.

In a nutshell, I mean.

Or am I wrong?

ANM

[BluesBear]

ANM you are correct sir.

Pax, I still quite often say the Pledge of Allegiance just because I can. It was one of the first things, probably the very first thing, I learned in 1st grade wayyyy back in 1960. I had teachers who taught me what it meant. I still to this day respect my flag and am mortified by those who show a lack of respect and lack of knowledge for what it stands for.

I will never swear allegiance to a government. To me "the Republic for which it stand" means the concept of the "government by the people, for the people" that our founding fathers envisioned. As I see it you and I, as well as most here on THR, ARE the Republic.

I vividly recall that the History books we used in the 4th grade constantly referred to the United States as a "democracy". Miss Kassenbrock (my teacher) has us cross the word democracy out ever time we saw it and write in the word "Republic". Miss K was a socialist. If I had known better back then I would have written in Democratic Republic.

I love my country and I would rather live here than any place on earth, (just as I chose to move to Washington state 4 years ago) and I have seen quite a large part of it. But it saddens me to watch it deteriorate almost in front of my eyes.

Perhaps if more children were taught the meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance, as well as the meaning of the Constitution, Bill Of Rights and the Declaration of Independence we could reverse the trend.

[Quartus]

Miss K was correct, socialist or not. We have a Republic by design. The FF feared democracy.


For good reasons.

[Balog]

I really have to disagree with you about the PoA. I'll never again say it because of one word. "Indivisible." Let me quote James Perloff to illustrate why I object to this. Quote from this page http://www.geocities.com/scvcamp1399/perloff-apology.htm
In 1788, the Massachusetts state convention ratified entry into the Union by a vote of just 187 to 168. Let us suppose that, a couple of years later, a second vote has rescinded the first, and Massachusetts respectfully announced: “Upon further consideration, we have decided that belonging to the Union is not in the state’s best interest.“ I wonder if anyone can imagine George Washington issuing the following proclamation:

“ It has come to my attention that Massachusetts intends to depart the Union. I declare Massachusetts in rebellion! I am requesting the Governors of the states to muster armies which are to proceed to Massachusetts and invade it. I am dispatching federal warships to blockade Boston Harbor. Upon capture, the city is to be burned to the ground. Federal commanders shall torch other Massachusetts cities and towns as they see fit.

“I, George Washington, do further declare, that because the people of Massachusetts have perpetrated this brazen treason, all their rights are forthwith revoked. Of course, if any Massachusetts resident disavows his state’s dastardly decision, and swears an oath of loyalty to the federal government, his rights shall be restored. Such cases excepted, federal soldiers should feel free to loot any Massachusetts home. Crops not seized for army provisions should be destroyed without regards to the needs of the rebels and their families. After all, war is hell.

“And to citizens of other states, take warning! Consorting with the Massachusetts rebels will not be tolerated. It has come to my attention, in fact, that certain leaders and legislators in New Hampshire and Connecticut have expressed sympathy for their cause ! I am ordering federal troops to round up these “border state “ turncoats. They will jailed without hearings. I hereby revoke the right of habeas corpus just accorded under the Constitution. In times as these, suspicion alone shall be suitable cause for imprisonment....”

[TexasVet]

FWIW, the above oath does not exist any longer and has not for decades. The current one states, in the applicable portion, only the following:
"I will bear true allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America-- and I will always be loyal thereto."
The rest is about the organization itself.

As far as being an anti VN vet hangout for drunks, I and about half my little East Texas post (250 enrolled members, maybe 50 at meetings )are VN or later vets, in fact we inducted a female active duty Air Force Sgt currently stationed in Afganistan into our ranks tonight. We also have one Pearl Harbor survivor in the Post. Our Ladies Aux (virtually every wife in the Post) meets at the same time and would beat us about the head if we tried to drive them home after the meetings drunk.
We donate full equipment for two Little League teams in our county, are sending a girls drill team to the Citrus Bowl this year, give out a $500 per semester scholarship to a local senior each year (that means we are helping keep 4 kids at any one time in college), support the local Boys and Girls Club with about 1/3 of their annual budget, give the Boy Scouts a grand a year, PAID for one of the local PD's drug dogs, and donate about 10K to cancer research annually (our Post's pet charity).
Not counting cash to ANY vet in the hospital in our county, Funeral Honor Guards for any vet, free flags for any cemetary, hospital, school or nursing home, a local Service Officer who works (for free) on pensions and benefits, supplying transportation to the 100 mile away VA hospital to anyone who needs it, and at every meeting donate to some local charity who comes to ask for a one time assistance. I believe we gave out 1,250 dollars tonight.
We also have Patriotic essay contests in the local schools, a Christmas party for the disadvantaged kids in the area, help sponsor the Fishing Derby, and are regularly invited to assist in programs at the local schools to educate the kids on history.
The county thinks so highly of our Post that they are dedicating the new Highway bridge as the VFW Memorial Bridge, as the County Judge announced at tonight's dinner before the meeting.
You might take another look at your local Post if you are a vet.

[BluesBear]

Since I haven't transcribed "The Pledge Of Allegiance" from the John Wayne album "America, Why I Love Her" I'll just use this one by Red Skelton instead. It's the one he used to tell to young school children.


Pledge of Allegiance
by Red Skelton


I:
Me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge:
To give without self-pity.

Allegiance:
My love and my devotion.

To the Flag:
Our standard; Old Glory ; a symbol of Freedom; wherever she waves there is respect, because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody's job.

United:
That means that we have all come together.

States:
Individual communities that have united into forty-eight great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose. All divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that is love for country.

And to the Republic:
Republic - a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people; and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For which it stands

One Nation:
One Nation - meaning, so blessed by God.

Indivisible:
Incapable of being divided.

With Liberty:
Which is Freedom; the right of power to live one's own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice:
The principle, or qualities, of dealing fairly with others.

For All:
For All - which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance: Under God. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that it's a prayer, and it would be eliminated from schools, too?

Red Skelton



If anyone wants to hear the John Wayne version PM me and I'll send it to you.

[Molon Labe]

Originally posted by Swingset:
I'd never swear allegiance to a government, nor would I swear not to bear arms against it.
Amen, brother.

Could you imagine Patrick Henry taking an oath like that? :eek:

Isn’t it ironic that we place our founding fathers on pedestals because they took up arms against a government, yet it is considered wrong for anyone else to do the same?