[Grizfire]

Basically when I shoot, the action flies open without me having to pump.

I tried to use my pumping arm to keep the action closed until I'm ready to pump it my self, but still the action opens up.

Has anyone experienced this? It doesn't seem right to me. Is this a cause for concern? I have shot many pumps before and never observed this.

The gun in question is a Remington 870 SPS super max gobbler (12 ga) which since it is a special purpose turkey gun, you would think it could handle turkey loads.

The ammo I tried first was 2 3/4 in, 1 1/8 oz trap loads which I had no problems with.

Then I tried 2 3/4 in, 1 1/4 oz, 6 shot loads and the action would open up, but the empty would not eject until I manually pumped it.

Then I tried XX turkey 2 3/4 in , 1 5/8 oz, 6 shot loads and the action would fully open on its own and the empty would eject all without me pumping the gun.

If I were to shoot this gun one handed, without my hand on the pump stock, would you expect the action to fly open? Or is it "suppose" to stay closed untill you pump it? I can tell you it opens up if I try this.

I was just having an issue with this guns stock, posted here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=428325) but this problem seems to have gone away.

For you shot gun experts, please let me know if this is a cause for concern. I will need to get any problems fixed before spring turkey season rolls around.

thanks

[Hungry Seagull]

The gun is made with a Improved Cylinder Choke as part of the barrel, at least it is on my Marine Magnum.

The Action flying open when firing means the gun is malfunctional and should be sent to the gunsmith to fix the problem. Action needs to stay closed when you fire.

In fact just picking my weapon up, once I close the action, it's not going to open again manually until one of two things happen.

Trigger is pulled to fire the shell OR...

Bar on front of trigger gaurd is activated to open the action.

The only other thing I can suspect is the shooter pulling straight backwards TOO hard on the forearm itself so that when the trigger is pulled BOOM action open.

[steveracer]

I have to disagree. I found my pumps to open on their own if I don't hold the forend. All of mine do this. Mossberg, Winchester, Remington.
Shoulder the gun, let go of the forend, fire. Pump comes back. Return pump, fire, pump comes back.
Steve

[Grizfire]

Yeah, mine came with a full turkey choke.

The action does lock when I load a round in the chamber ( I cannot open it at this point unless a press in that bar by the trigger guard)

I also thought that I could have been pulling the stock back when I fired, so I tried pushing forward on the stock when I fired, but it still opens up, just less so. I even tried not touching the forward stock at all (one handed shot), and it just flies open when fired.

I have not experienced this with my browning BPS, so I don't know if this is normal

Of course, I'll give Remington a call and see what they say about this.

[Hungry Seagull]

**Shakes head. I dont know... both of our guns actions stay closed until shell is fired then we rack out (Eject) the fired shell and load the next one.

[Badger Arms]

The laws of physics say that when the gun recoils and then stops recoiling, the slide will continue back without significant resistance from your weak hand or some other mechanism. It sounds perfectly normal to me.

[Hungry Seagull]

Aha.

[Bix]

Agree - run an 870 one handed with buck or slugs and it will eject shells for you :). Low brass might not produce enough energy to see the effect, but I expect turkey loads would.

[Hungry Seagull]

Ok, My position is flawed then. I must believe that all shotguns need to be held by two hands unless you are part of the Darwin Family.

[Grizfire]

OK, I agree this affect would occur with one-handed shooting, but it still doesn't seem like this should happen with two-handed shooting with normal grip.

I was expecting that with normal fire, stance, and grip, the action would stay closed until I decided to pump the action. Perhaps I'm pulling on the forward stock too much, but even when I focus on pushing the forward stock out to keep the action closed, the action still opens a half inch or so.

[Hungry Seagull]

If you WILLFULLY WANT the action SHUT by shoving foward with strength and the durn thing still falls out a little ...

Makes me want to close the action on my gun and bang the buttstock on the floor..... to see if it stays shut.

It's funny, My wife was weak in her closing of the action of the moss PRIOR to pulling trig. She risked a blow back into her face if she did fire... I got her trained so that she will not fire until that action closes with a satisfying CLICK!

[RetiredLawman]

Brister, the famous gun guru, demonstarted that a pump action should open by itself upon firing a heavy load. I think it would assist you in a quick second shot.

[Beagle-zebub]

The laws of physics say that when the gun recoils and then stops recoiling, the slide will continue back without significant resistance from your weak hand or some other mechanism. It sounds perfectly normal to me.

The lighter the gun is, the more this should be apparent--a Winchester with an aluminum receiver might cycle all the way with really heavy loads.

[Hungry Seagull]

Just had a thought. Firing MAGs are FUN them shells HOP out of the reciever quick.

Firing wimpy stuff and you have to force em out.

Now I get it....

[The Deer Hunter]

With higher power loads, the action of my 870 opens up maybe 1/4"-1/2".

Did you get that stock taken care of? In all honesty, I would send the gun back to Remington, or if it's relatively new exchange it for another one.

[Geneseo1911]

The lighter the gun is, the more this should be apparent--a Winchester with an aluminum receiver might cycle all the way with really heavy loads.

Actually, it is designed that way. 1 oz of #8s will eject itself if you stay off the forend. That's why they called it the "speed pump". The rotating bolt is unlocked when the recoil forces the carrier back. The bolt of every pump I've ever seen unlocks after the trigger is pulled. That's how we get "cruiser ready".

It's a feature, not a bug.



and why do I keep finding myself in the shotgun forum......?.......

[jmr40]

Perfectly normal. Ive experienced the same thing when shooting heavy loads from pump guns. I've noticed it with Remington, Benelli Nova's as well as Winchester 1300"s

[22lr]

On a 870 built to take heavy loads, id take the gun back. On a Winchester speed pump, maybe but ive never shot a 870 that did that. My mossberg 500 takes heavy 3inch buckshot with no problems. Ive never even heard of the forearm coming back under recoil. Id be sending the gun back.

A pump action should be strong enough to take heavy recoil (especially the model thats marketed for heavy turkey loads).

Even speedpumps that ive shot don't come unlocked and come back, ya it unlocks the bolt but you still should have to pull it back to rack another shell.

[Grizfire]

Did you get that stock taken care of?

Yep, a little oil did the trick, thanks to all who helped on that one.

As far as this new issue, *sigh*, looks like some people say the recoil is normal, other say its not. I'll call Remington and see what they say, its definitely under warranty.

[Beagle-zebub]

Actually, it is designed that way. 1 oz of #8s will eject itself if you stay off the forend. That's why they called it the "speed pump". The rotating bolt is unlocked when the recoil forces the carrier back. The bolt of every pump I've ever seen unlocks after the trigger is pulled. That's how we get "cruiser ready".

It's a feature, not a bug.

I think we're in agreement. :D

[Funderb]

The laws of physics say that when the gun recoils and then stops recoiling, the slide will continue back without significant resistance from your weak hand or some other mechanism. It sounds perfectly normal to me.


have you looked at the locking mechanism in an 870?
no "momentum" should open it.
This sounds like a lubricant problem, the slide might not be forward enough to put the locky thingy into the locky hole.
to put it scientifically.

[Geneseo1911]

OK. Everyone who actually owns a pump action shotgun and thinks they don't unlock on their own when fired....

Go get it.
Double check it's unloaded.
Point in a safe direction.
Pull the trigger.
Notice how you can now cycle the action, without hitting the release button. Alternatively, you could bang it on the floor to simulate recoil.
The inertia of the heavy bolt will cause it to open somewhat under recoil. If it doesn't, the gun is either dirty, broken, or hasn't been cycled enough.

Think of it as half a semi-auto. Or an auto-unloader. Now there's some marketing copy.

Sometimes I think if I started a thread saying "Hey, every time I shoot my Saiga-12, it ejects the empty shell and loads a new one. Is that normal?". People would argue about it.

[mnrivrat]

OK - My 2 cents worth .

On the pump shotgun the bolt is locked forward by the bolt latch. This is a small metal bar that is spring loaded so that the forward tip comes up and interfers with the bolt slide (thus locking the action). Variations of this mechanism are on all pumps.
On the Remington 870 this part can be seen by removing the trigger housing assy and looking at the front left side as it would sit in the gun. When you push the slide release on the trigger guard upward you will notice the movement of this bolt latch as it draws downward. (releasing the bolt when the gun is assembled)

During normal operation when the gun is fired this latch is drawn down by a small potion of the latch that rides on top of the hammer spring plunger. When the hammer falls, the hammer spring plunger moves upward engaging the bolt latch and releasing it from the bolt carrier by drawing it downward.

As to your problem : With heavy loads there is still pressure and recoil energy trying to force the bolt open after the latch has been released. While this is not a danger because enough energy has been dissipated to be safe, and while a certain amount of rearward movement is perhaps normal, if it is excessive it can be fixed or adjusted.

The quickest way is to remove a small portion of the little protrusion of the latch that rides on the hammer spring follower. (it is a little tail like protrustion) By removing a little off the bottom of this the latch remains at a higher point for a slightly longer period of the hammers throw. This then delays the complete unlatching long enough for the energy levels to reduce, and you won't get the early, or excessive rearward movement of the bolt.

[Jorg]

As I mentioned in your other thread, this is largely a function of the recoil reducing stock. The receiver rides back on the stock. At the end of the travel, it moves forward to the original position. Inertia keeps the bolt and fore-end travelling backwards, causing the action to open.

The Knoxx stock has two moving sections, which is how the recoil reduction works. As you can see in the link you posted in the other thread, there are two springs. The receiver moves backwards and slightly up above the pistol grip. Then the tube part slides into the stock. When you have a regular stock, there is much less travel.

[Snarlingiron]

From Remington's website:


Question: The action on my Model 870 opens when I fire it. Is this normal?

Answer: It is the design of the Model 870 for the action bar lock to disengage once the shell has been fired. This enables you to load and fire the second shot with more speed.

[Virginian]

Good grief. Now we're bashing the most popular shotgun thee world has ever seen for normal operation ?!?!
Go edit the title of this post please.

[Funderb]

Sometimes I think if I started a thread saying "Hey, every time I shoot my Saiga-12, it ejects the empty shell and loads a new one. Is that normal?". People would argue about it.

it shouldn't do that, that saiga needs to be serviced!

[Grizfire]

Good grief. Now we're bashing the most popular shotgun thee world has ever seen for normal operation ?!?!
Go edit the title of this post please.

sorry charlie,

This is not meant to be bashing, this was a question/concern of mine as I have not used an 870 before and all the other pumps I have shot have never done this.

If this is normal operation, then I am disappointed, I would like to be in control of when to eject the empty or not. If I wanted speed of use, I'd buy an autoloader.

Thank you all for helping me get to the bottom of this.

[kmrcstintn]

I had a similar problem with my Benelli Nova when shooting heavier recoiling loads; I learned to have a good grip on the forearm and use a bit of forward pressure to keep the action from opening right after I trigger a shot;

also seen it with Remington 760's & 7600's (slide action rifles); foreend sits on a bag on a shooting bench while sighting in a scope and action unlocks when a shot is triggered

[Hungry Seagull]

Ive decided to grow up and hold onto that gun when firing heavy loads. It seperates the men from the boys.

[Jubjub]

So the shotgun in question has one of those spring loaded Knoxx stocks?

It seems like this might be what's going on.

You fire the shot while everything is locked up as it should be. Now that the hammer has fallen, the bolt is unlatched automatically, as it should be. That big shot charge goes thundering down the bore, Newton's third law kicks in, and the shotgun moves back, bringing your hand and arm holding the forend with it. With the Knoxx stock, it can really move, too, since there is a good inch or more of travel. Next the springs in the stock push the receiver and barrel of the gun forward, while all that momentum in the forearm, action bar, bolt, your arm, etc. keep it moving back.

It's sort of halfway to being a Benelli.

[bhk]

This is perfectly normal. Holding the forearm tightly and pushing FORWARD on it is not the way to hold a shotgun properly. Both the front hand and the pistol grip hand should be pulling the gun back into the shoulder.

I just picked up my empty 870 a minute ago, pointed at a mounted quail I have in my den, and pulled the trigger. The action opened slightly just from the rearward pull from my front hand, even with the gun empty. Why would you not want it to work this way. Pumps are fast!

[Hungry Seagull]

I agree.

I stuck a A-Zoom 12 gauge snapcap in mine, fired it and lo and behold the action is released to allow the real shell to hop out (If it was real)

Done. Settled that for good in my mind and this gun recently came back perfect from the smith.

[Grizfire]

Why would you not want it to work this way.

I have been firing my BPS for over fifteen years by

1) firing
2) pumping back to eject
3) pumping forward to load


I am so used to this process, that when this new gun pumps back to eject for me, my brain becomes discombobulated. :confused:

Now that I know that this is just the way it is, I will practice and try to get used to it.

[Hungry Seagull]

discombobulated :scrutiny:

AHA. Old word means off track!

Gotcha. Im gonna get used to it myself!

Maybe if I keep it up there on the shoulder it might save me the weight lifting exercise LOL.:banghead:

[Virginian]

My BPSs all did exactly the same thing. 'Course I wasn't shooting wimp loads in a 10 gauge.

[Bix]

I'm surprised this one is still going - even after Snarlington posted the language from Remington's website....

This question has been asked and answered here and elswhere on the forum. Here's our very own moderator addressing it (at the end):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1664699&postcount=8

[Virginian]

If it was about a "B" gun it would have never gone this far. :evil: :cuss: :D

[Hungry Seagull]

This thing keeps going and going. lolz

[Bad Hammer]

It's funny, My wife was weak in her closing of the action of the moss PRIOR to pulling trig. She risked a blow back into her face if she did fire... I got her trained so that she will not fire until that action closes with a satisfying CLICK!
Although proper technique should always be a priority, I wouldn't be too worried about the "blow back".
None of my Mossbergs will fire if the action isn't in battery (locked in the closed position).
The disconnector won't trip the sear with the bolt out of battery.

[Snarlingiron]

I am so used to this process, that when this new gun pumps back to eject for me, my brain becomes discombobulated.

So I guess you need to practice until you are combobulated?

[darkknight]

My nova has never done this and I have fired 3in magnum 00 buck loads and 3.5 in #4 turkey loads. I would send it back to remington, it just doesn't sound right to me.I am not a shotgun expert but I don't like the idea of my gun opening up without me doing it (excluding semi's).

[Virginian]

I almost don't believe this. I can tell who slept in physics and who didn't. Will all of you know it alls go out and shoot any pump shotgun, with a decent load, without a hand on the forend and come back and tell us if it doesn't open after the shot. It in fact does not open until after the shot, but of course you cannot see that fast.
The silence will be nice.
There is nothing wrong with this shotgun.

P.S. - If you have a BPS 10 gauge, wear some safety shoes, because that big hull could hurt your tootsies when it comes flying out the bottom.
P.P.S.- Hint - The same thing keeps the action closed, after the trigger pull allows the bolt to unlock, that makes the Benellis work. The bolt opens because your body stops the rest of the gun's rearward motion.