CCW on military base? (Air Force form 523)


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vjarnot
March 1, 2009, 02:04 PM
Just wondering if any contractors (or civilian employees) on military installations have attempted legal concealed-carry on base?

I don't feel the need to carry on base, per se, but it would be nice to carry during the commute and any stops along the way.

I've found this info so far (pertaining to USAF):

AF 523, USAF Authorization To Bear Firearms

As described on page 15 of AFI 31-207 http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI31-207.pdf.

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isp2605
March 1, 2009, 02:15 PM
The AFI does not apply to anyone who just wants to carry a firearm on a USAF installation. It is for those engaged in base security functions. Most military installations have contract security which is the reference to "contract personnel".

CB900F
March 1, 2009, 02:23 PM
Vjarnot;

Interesting. I've often wondered about a contractor's surviving family suing the military because the contractor had to drop his weapon before entering base and then was injured or killed in an off-base incident either on the way to the base, or returning to the weapon.

The most I'd ever hoped to see was a gate check-in and storage for civilian weapons. Hopefully with video ID on check-in and wipe on departure.

This is worth checking out IMHO.

900F

Crosswind81
March 1, 2009, 02:29 PM
I live near and work on an Army post and of course even with a CC permit you cannot carry on post. I even posed a question ref. this to the garrison commander on a questionnaire that came around but of course got no response back. Why would a military post, a veritable bastion of freedom in the USA, not support the 2nd? Does that mean they are taking responsibility for my safety back and forth on post? Surely, a properly licensed and vetted CCW should not be an issue on a military compound, right? I must be missing something...

vjarnot
March 1, 2009, 02:32 PM
The AFI does not apply to anyone who just wants to carry a firearm on a USAF installation. It is for those engaged in base security functions. Most military installations have contract security which is the reference to "contract personnel".

Actually, 2.5.4 and 2.5.4.2 (p16) exempts "civilian contract guards" from the AF form 523 paperwork requirement.

DocBoCook
March 1, 2009, 02:46 PM
because it is NOT a bastion of freedom, it defends it. I drive through crappy neighborhoods on my way to work, but cannot carry on base, so therefore have to risk it going to work unarmed

Shovelhead
March 1, 2009, 03:01 PM
I have worked on an Air Force Base for over 20 years as a contract civilian on call 24/7/365.

I know most of the SFS personnel there.
Several of them know that I have a CHP in the state of Virginia.

When asked how I should respond if called out while away from home and ''carrying", I was told that it would be FAR better to be an hour late responding, than to get caught with a firearm in a random vehicle access check.
;)

PS: as for taking your chances and leaving it in your car, our guys & gals frequently roam the parking areas with K-9s.

Signs are everywhere where I work
WARNING
U.S. Air Force Installation
It is unlawful to enter this area without permission of the Installation Commander.
While on this installation all personnel and the property under their control are subject to search.

They have found a few folks with "stuff" they shouldn't have in their cars.

NG VI
March 1, 2009, 03:06 PM
Is it acceptable to stop outside post and secure your firearm, or is it a no-go to have firearms on post at all? People live on most posts, so I couldn't imagine that guns are totally outlawed from a military installation.

razorback2003
March 1, 2009, 03:08 PM
I know hunting is allowed on Camp Robinson (National Guard) in North Little Rock, Arkansas. They also do some law enforcement training and hold an annual SWAT competition. As far as carrying outside sporting activities, I highly doubt it. It is a hassle to even hunt at Camp Robinson. Lots of nice paperwork. I could not carry a handgun, unless it was a handgun legal to hunt with....which in AR must have a 4 inch barrel for small and big game. I could openly or conceal carry though.

I've heard many other military bases take the same approach as far as firearms, lots of paperwork and hassle just to take a gun on base to hunt.

Shovelhead
March 1, 2009, 03:12 PM
Is it acceptable to stop outside post and secure your firearm, or is it a no-go to have firearms on post at all? People live on most posts, so I couldn't imagine that guns are totally outlawed from a military installation.


Most bases require all enlisted personnel to register all personal firearms and store them only in the Base Armory.

DocBoCook
March 1, 2009, 03:27 PM
I work at a Naval Hospital, security is mostly contracted out, and the commander does not make arrangements for storing on base.

Hungry Seagull
March 1, 2009, 03:33 PM
I figure it this way, a Military Installation that graciously allows me as a Civilian Guest for a Museum visit or function is a secure place and Im not to worry about weapons or guns.

Unless someone on base loses it and starts to hunt civilians in said museum.

I dont carry period on any military base or intend to. I dont know about that civilian contract security stuff yet.

The last time I went onto base was North Little Rock just after 9-11 for a Air Show. It was a wonderful day, but passing emplaced and serious faced Airmen who are obviously working the whole installion at a condition level Way above peacetime was sobering indeed.

Nothing moved all that day without being eyeballed. We all had a blast... all of us.

22lr
March 1, 2009, 04:07 PM
Ya a USAF base is the last place I worry about being mugged so I have no problems with just leaving my piece at home when im visiting. Security, then ya they need guns but not me. I carry all the time and I wish I could on a school campus but a military base, just no need. If Soldiers and Airman cant stop the threat with automatic rifles, grenades, machine guns and close air support then little ole me with a little ole 9mm just isn't going to matter :cool:.


By the way you can take a gun to a base just declare it and they will make sure it goes to the armory till you leave. Pretty much SOP, ya they might give you grief but folks that work on base can just leave it in the armory if the drive in isn't a good one. Just call ahead of time and double check that its ok, saying you say on the internet isn't going to cut it (I only speak from experience on a few bases and it might be a base by base thing).

I go hunting at Camp Atterbury and its a no hassle kind of thing, its a 2 day hunt and they asked if we had guns but didn't care.

sernv99
March 1, 2009, 04:21 PM
Why would a military post, a veritable bastion of freedom in the USA, not support the 2nd? Does that mean they are taking responsibility for my safety back and forth on post?

no, it means they don't want any cowboys taking matters into their own hands if a situation arises. Also, this restricted firearm law has been around a long time. As far as the base commander is concerned, you are a non-relevant civie, he is the govie in charge, it's his base and the military runs it so feel free to go somewhere else if you don't like it. Not being insulting to you but a base commander could give a rat's a$$ about 2nd amen rights or whether or not you have to drive through some bad 'hoods to get to work. That doesn't play into his command of the base.

vjarnot
March 1, 2009, 06:37 PM
OK, let's rein this in a bit.

I was hoping for a practical discussion, not a philosophical one. Namely: you work on base, you can't carry on base without permission, you don't live on base, you'd like to carry to/from base.

I know I could probably declare the weapon and be escorted to the armory with it. But that's completely impractical on a daily basis.

sernv99
March 1, 2009, 06:56 PM
Sernv99;

Of course he's referencing the U.S. military. And he's correct.


you two need to be sent off to another country....what a crock, especially on here. Talking about people's freedoms then criticize the US military. Yeah that makes a lot of sense:rolleyes:

JShirley
March 1, 2009, 07:55 PM
So, vj, I hope you've realized in practical terms there is no "legal concealed-carry on base".

I can't say I agree, but after spending some time on a military base with a bunch of enlisted types, I do understand. OTOH, I've had a great deal of respect for almost all officers I've encountered in my service.

John

isp2605
March 1, 2009, 07:57 PM
Actually, 2.5.4 and 2.5.4.2 (p16) exempts "civilian contract guards" from the AF form 523 paperwork requirement.
I know very well what those section say. I'm also very familiar with the AFI. I retired as the chief of security on a USAF installation. This AFI does not apply to any civilian contractor who wants to carry on a base. It only applies to security contractors. It has nothing to do with civilians carrying on a base. Anyone who tries to do so is liable to end up with an 18 yr old who is scared to death screwing an M-16 in the back of your head. Those kids are messing around. They're hyped up and they're young enough to jump high when confronted.

vjarnot
March 1, 2009, 08:14 PM
I can't say I agree, but after spending some time on a military base with a bunch of enlisted types, I do understand. OTOH, I've had a great deal of respect for almost all officers I've encountered in my service.

Thank you for insulting my time spent in the service.

I know very well what those section say. I'm also very familiar with the AFI. I retired as the chief of security on a USAF installation. This AFI does not apply to any civilian contractor who wants to carry on a base. It only applies to security contractors. It has nothing to do with civilians carrying on a base.

Thank you for expanding on your earlier response. My question arose because the AFI doesn't make that clear.

Armed 24/7
March 1, 2009, 08:35 PM
I very recently worked as a civillian contract gate guard, and we were strictly prohibited from CC'ing on base. Which was ironic, since when I got to work they issued me a Beretta 92...

SyberShooter
March 1, 2009, 08:54 PM
Military bases and other federal buildings such as court houses and the post office do not normally allow ordinary citizens to carry a firearm in - even CCW holders. Now there are exceptions, where I work they have a skeet and rifle range open to the public and they allow you to bring one in for that purpose and give you 24 hours to register your shotgun or rifle, since most people leave within a few hours, they don't register and the next time they have a new 24hr period. However don't try it with a handgun - if you are caught with an unregistered handgun, you will probably lose it plus face other actions. I heard recently that they were going to require military personnel living off-post to register their POF.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 1, 2009, 08:58 PM
Something about a nervous 18 year old with the authority to shoot you makes me think, NO! :D

They actually train them to hit their target you know.:what:

isp2605
March 1, 2009, 09:14 PM
Thank you for expanding on your earlier response. My question arose because the AFI doesn't make that clear.
It's covered in the very first paragraph of the cover page and also in the Overview of the first page of the actual AFI.

Something about a nervous 18 year old with the authority to shoot you makes me think, NO!
They actually train them to hit their target you know.
While there are a bunch of the SF and contractors on every USAF installation that people see armed with M-16s, some with 203s, and M-9s there are also SF types known as ARTs, SRTs, and Reactionary Forces patrolling around quite possibly armed with M-249 and M-240s.
They aren't messing around. To many Joe Citizens they see the installation as just a bunch of buildings and people walking around dressed all alike. To the people tasked with providing the security they know they're a target.

Shovelhead
March 1, 2009, 09:21 PM
I can't say I agree, but after spending some time on a military base with a bunch of enlisted types, I do understand.

Seeing the Pentagon in flames across the Potomac river from my office on 09-11-2001, and watching our base and the Security Forces troops ramp up from FP-Alpha to FP-Delta in the space of a few minutes, I TOTALLY understand and agree.

vjarnot
March 1, 2009, 10:03 PM
It's covered in the very first paragraph of the cover page and also in the Overview of the first page of the actual AFI.

Actually, neither of those paragraphs reach that level of specificity. But your reply did cause me to read more carefully, and paragraph 2.1.1 does, and it states exactly what you posted earlier.

flynlr
March 2, 2009, 03:15 AM
JShirley
Administrator
I can't say I agree, but after spending some time on a military base with a bunch of enlisted types, I do understand. OTOH, I've had a great deal of respect for almost all officers I've encountered in my service.
John

It's great to see a site admin has no respect for the enlisted folks in our armed forces, but is willing to lump all Officers in the awesome people file.

the rest of what I would like to say is not "highroad"

Bob R
March 2, 2009, 04:21 AM
^^^^^^^
What he said.

Is it acceptable to stop outside post and secure your firearm, or is it a no-go to have firearms on post at all? People live on most posts, so I couldn't imagine that guns are totally outlawed from a military installation.


While the carrying of a loaded weapon on an AFB by any one other than security is strictly forbidden, you can take your gun onto some bases.

The two I am familiar with allow it, but differently.

Malmstrom AFB would allow me to have my pistol in my car, as long as it was unloaded and locked in a case. It also had to be out of reach. If you were spending the night on base (AF Lodge) your weapons had to go to the armory.

At Fairchild AFB, I have to let the gate security know that I am a licensed carrier and I have my gun with me. They will direct me to the security office where my gun will be placed in safe keeping until I leave the base. I pick it up on my way out.

The only way to find out for sure is to call the security forces of the base you want to go onto and ask what their policy is.

bob

Chindo18Z
March 2, 2009, 09:58 AM
"It's great to see a site admin has no respect for the enlisted folks in our armed forces, but is willing to lump all Officers in the awesome people file."

JShirley (a former enlisted infantryman who served in Afghanistan) probably should have used an emoticon. I'm sure irony was intended...not disrespect.

JShirley
March 3, 2009, 07:42 PM
Sergeant Major, it's kind of you to stick up for me, but...

It'd be nice if some folks read a little more carefully before jumping onto their high horses.

For the reading/understanding impaired, I wrote- I"ll emphasize as appropriate- in practical terms there is no "legal concealed-carry on base".

I can't say I agree, but after spending some time on a military base with a bunch of enlisted types, I do understand.

Now, if you, like me, have been surrounded by a bunch of bored young infantrymen, many with little practical experience with firearms except under very strict controls, and who have little to do with themselves on the weekend except get drunk, try to find a girl and/or a fight, you either understand, or you don't. If you've been there, then you understand exactly what I'm saying. I'm not talking about protection in a combat zone, I'm talking about a lack of concealed carry on a base in the States.

OTOH, I've had a great deal of respect for almost all officers I've encountered in my service.

True statement, and in my opinion, this has much to do with the background of those involved. I have never been sexually harassed by officers (as I have two NCOs), I have never been cursed without reason from an officer (as I have from multiple enlisteds, both lower and NCO), and in general there seem to be fewer jerks per volume, in my experience, in the officer ranks.

Now, if you can't understand what I said from what I wrote, you know how to PM me. I don't draw very well, but I'll do my best to draw you a picture. If you have nothing better to do with your time than be insulted, help yourself.

John

vjarnot
March 3, 2009, 09:05 PM
Explain away, but the problem was not so much with the reading as with the writing. Separating the sentences as you've done above lessens the (apparently unintentional) subtext...

Oh well, I suppose I can't fault you, after spending some time on a military base with a bunch of Army types, I do understand. OTOH, I've had a great deal of respect for almost all airmen I've encountered in my service.

JShirley
March 3, 2009, 09:09 PM
Me, too. Air Force and Navy types I've run across have been extremely polite and intelligent, with almost no exception. Marines, OTOH...:fire: I've had to call the Sergeant of the Guard before on a Marine Sergeant who tried to refuse to let us search his truck as he drove back on base. Hey, guy, we're just trying to stop the bombs, you know? Or the Marine Sgt Major who demanded we make "his" Marines always show id before we allowed them back in, even if we recognized, but who didn't take his own id with him when he left the camp. Known a few really good Marines, too.

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