[chaim]

There seems to be a lot of talk as to what is best for HD. I'm curious, has anyone done any penatration testing on 7.62x39? Usually the consensous is that rifle cartridges are too powerful and overpenatrate too much for suburban or urban situations, however the .223 is an exception which may actually have fewer overpenatration issues than most pistol ammo. The 7.62x39 is a similar type of round (an "intermediate" cartridge) so I was thinking... Has anyone actually done any testing or is it all conjecture? Is this chambering ok with some ammo choices anyway.

I don't really plan to make this my choice. I see the advantages of .223, .30Carbine or a revolver caliber lever rifle for this job. However, I guess what got me thinking is two things. Right now the closest things I have to acceptable long guns are an SKS in (of course) 7.62x39 and a Hi-Point 9mm carbine. Well, 9mm isn't really any more powerful in a long gun than in a pistol, plus I'm not sure I trust the Hi-Point yet for HD. The other thing that got me thinking is looking in the Natchez catalogue and noticing a few ammo companies with "tactical" or "fragmentation" loads in 7.62x39. Is there any way that my SKS is a suitable stop gap for HD until I get something better? Are there loads (esp. some "regular" loads, not the super expensive "tactical" and "pre-fragmented" rounds) that would make guns in this caliber suitable for consideration for the perminant "home defense carbine" choice?

On a related note (stop gaps), how good is .22lr out of a long gun? Assuming my SKS is too powerful, does .22lr (with the proper load) generate enough power out of a long gun to make it a stop gap long gun? How does it compare out of a long gun to pistol calibers? Is it comparable to .38spl, .380, or is it less/more? What loads make it acceptable, if any? Assuming the SKS is too powerful, should I load up my Marlin 60 or should I just stick with handguns? Don't worry, even if I use the .22 I always have at least one handgun loaded up and until I get a Mini-14, shotgun or .357mag or .44mag lever rifle a handgun will be my initial "go to" gun.

[Mark Tyson]

As I understand it, you're asking 2 things here. First, what long gun should you get eventually for home defense. Second, can you use your SKS or .22 for home defense in the interim. Let me say that I think a shotgun trumps a rifle at HD ranges, and get that out of the way.

Now, there are stories of .22 LR being used quite well in self defense. Ammo is cheap, it's fun to shoot and therefore you'll practice a lot. But you'll need to be real good or real lucky with a .22. If I had to choose .22 ammo, maybe I would choose Stinger CCI. Or maybe some of the .22 "hyper velocity" rounds out there - those come in hollow point. But you want to know if it's better than a pistol caliber. I don't know. You didn't mention what kind of handguns you have, but have you ever tried to manauver a long gun around your house? It may be that your handgun is a more practical weapon for this reason.

The 7.62x39 is a good round at close range, but a policeman told me that he'd seen a guy hit 6 or 7 times by this caliber still walking around! Aim center mass and I don't think you'll have a problem. Most people tend to shoot high at night, but at close range it may not matter. Most 7.62x39 I come across seems to be in hollow point for some reason. I can't imagine you'd have a problem putting a bad guy down with 123gr hollow points at close range. Wolf makes some in 154 grain soft point. I'd prefer HP over ball, and soft point over HP. Wolf ammo can be nasty though. Federal makes 7.62x39 ammo but it's expensive(relatively speaking). The .223 is also adequate at close range. If you get a .223, get 75 grain hollow points or 77 grain Sierra match king - heaviest .223 I've come across. I heard 80 grain is out there, but never seen it. There's also 64 gr pointed soft points in 223.

Overpenetration: you just can't tell with bullets. I've seen 5.56mm ball military ammo break up inside a human body, and 9mm hollow point go flying through multiple floors and walls. Construction materials is very flimsy in a lot of houses/apartments. Drywall isn't going to stop bullets very well period.

The best pistol caliber carbine available to civilians? Maybe the H&K USC, but it's expensive: 1100$ around here. An autoloader, it comes in manly-man .45 ACP. Forty-five has less overpenetration as you probably know than the smaller, faster bullets. But like I said, the USC is expensive. Instead you can get a Marlin lever gun in .44 special, .35 remington. There's also a good Marlin .45 Camp carbine . . . I'm sure there's other good models and calibers I'm leaving out. I'd go with a Marlin .45.

Hope this helped some. Tell us what you eventually get.

[Art Eatman]

Can you "up, jump and shoot" and be pretty sure of hitting your intended target? If so, what you already have is plenty effective. First, stay alive. Second, worry about over-penetration. If you hit the Bad Guy, over-penetration problems are drastically reduced.

If you can roll a tin can with a .22 semi-auto--whether rifle or pistol--you can deal out true misery to a Bad Guy. People have been doing it for years and years.

Sure, there's guns out there that might be "better", but I wouldn't get all eat up with the worries about it...

$0.02, Art

[keederdag]

Buy a cheap 12 gauge pump-gun; cut it off at 19-20" (measure carfully) have a local smith reinstall bead, and stoke it with mag #4-71/2's . Forget the HD carbine. Tysons right, at home a shotgun is the way brother.;)

[Bowlcut]

LOL do like i do. Shotty by the bed....HiPoint Carbine by the door :D. 9mm...so dont have to worry too much about big old high powered bullets

[chaim]

I'm pretty settled on my long term home defense long gun. I actually will have three for depending upon my mood, but the primary will be a .357mag lever gun. Plenty of power (revolver calibers, unlike auto pistol calibers, gain velocity, and thus power, out of longer barrels), relatively low blast and flash (less than out of a pistol), easy to manuver (they are usually quite short and lightweight= handy), I can share ammo with three of my revolvers (5 if I use .38spl out of it), "PC" looks for when the self-defense shoot gets to court, etc. I will occasionally use a Mini-14 because out of rifle rounds .223 gets the least overpenatration (even less than most pistol rounds) and it still has good short-distance stopping power, but it has too much flash and blast. I'll ocassionally use a shotgun, but again too much noise and ammo selection becomes very important (some recent reading suggests to me that despite popular opinion, 12ga with birdshot won't give enough penatration in a BG for effective defense and 00 buck can have overpenatration issues as well as much more recoil than the other options).

I'm not a big fan of pistol caliber carbines in auto calibers. Great for sub guns that shoot full-auto, but I won't be getting one. Unlike revolver calibers they don't gain any velocity out of longer barrels as they are designed to take full advantage of shorter pistol barrels (some of what I've read suggests that .45acp may even slow out of a carbine barrel v. a 5" 1911). About the only advantage over a pistol is the longer sight radius.

Anyway, for now I was looking for some advice re. a stop gap, utilizing what I already have, until I pick up another shotgun (I haven't had one for going on 2 years), a pistol caliber lever carbine and a Mini-14. Also, if 7.62x39 can be ok for home defense (i.e. limited overpenatration with good ammo selection) I might be convinced to make that a semi-perminant solution since I already have one. For those who want to know my pistols, primary HD gun (in that it is almost always with me when at home) is a Taurus 85 worn IWB, I also have one of three .357s (3", 4" and 6" barrels) or a 4" .38 loaded up and sometimes I use my 9mm CZ 75 or my 1911.

[Dave Markowitz]

Your SKS will do just fine for HD. It's worked extremely well for the last 50+ years on battlefields all across the planet.

I would suggest loading it with good HPs or SPs, though. Even if the HP doesn't expand, the way they are constructed moves the center of gravity back towards the base of the bullet, so it should tumble quite readily. And don't worry about Wolf ammo -- what do you think this thing was designed for? :)

[DMK]

Chaim, what kind of neighborhood do you live in? If you live in a suburban or urban environment where your neighbors are about 50 yards away then you might want to rethink using a rifle for HD. I certainly hope my neighbors don't entertain such ideas. Now if you live on a ranch or out in the boonies, then the SKS is a great idea.

Any rifle should easily penetrate the walls of most houses after going through a bad guy at 7 feet, even a little 30-30 or .223. I just don't buy the stories that .223 will be stopped by mere sheetrock. Yea, it's only a .55 gr. bullet, but those little suckers zing.

I agree with those above about getting a 12 guage. If birdshot is too little for you and #00 too much, what about #4 buck? That's around twentysomething .22 sized lead pellets in each shell. That's like a 10/22 on 20 round burst! :p I keep my Mossberg loaded with 4 #4s and 3 #00s in the tube with two more #00s and two slugs on the buttcuff. That's backed up by a 9mm carbine and a few handguns.

You also might want to find out why that 9mm carbine isn't reliable enough for HD. Fix it up for a backup, or sell it and get a .357 lever, .40 semi-auto carbine or whatever.

That's just my opinion, probably worth what you paid for it.

[jercamp45]

If the HiPoint is reliable(I have heard they are)...loaded with quality JHP's, I think it would be pretty effective cause it does gain velocity, easy to shoot, etc.
The SKS loaded with HP or SP's will do all right too, but they may over penetrate some, but again that is secondary to survival.
.22? Well, better than nothing...Stingers or solids? Ahh, toughie
Hitting with something is better than missing with anything, have a good light, ID your target and hit 'em with all you got handy!!
Jercamp45

[Dot_mdb]

For "Home Defense" in the suburbs forget about a long gun. All you need is a .38/.357 revolver. I keep two loaded revolvers in the house. One is a 6" and one a snubbie. The snubbie is good out to 25 yards and and 6" will hit coffee cans or bowling pins at 50 yards. Why would you need a rifle for home defense?

If you want to buy rifles, then just buy them, I certainly do, but I don't think they will ever be used for home defense.

Bill

[Atticus]

"Chaim, what kind of neighborhood do you live in? If you live in a suburban or urban environment where your neighbors are about 50 yards away then you might want to rethink using a rifle for HD."

50 yards??? That would be three houses down on my block...and the 7.62x39 would probably visit at least two of them.
I used to shoot my SKS at a junkyard. That taught me not to hide behind anything short of a steel belted radial tire if being shot at with one. Although, I'll admit that I was using Norinco steel core ammo at the time.
A good pump shotgun is your best bet.

[Brian Williams]

I really like my 1894 in 357 with a win 1300 around the corner with a S&W 13 and 586 next to the bed.

[mrstang01]

You folks that refuse to believe the .223 penetrates less in some loadings than 9mm need to do some research, there is a reason police are moving away from MP5's to short barreled AR's.

Chaim, if you'd like to IM me, I've got a Rossi 92 in .357 I don't really need.

[rayra]

Seconding the shotgun suggestion.

I did some wall-section trials with 2x4-drywall and 2x4-insulation-drywall, using several rifle and pistol calibers, and was very concerned about the overpenetration of ALL of them. Glaser or other fragmentary rounds is all I'll consider for in-home use.

[JERRY]

rem. 18" 870 with 00 buck for the bad guys, an SKS with a.p. rounds incase the cops come wearing heavy armor. LOL not really.

[chaim]

Some people seem to misunderstand my overpenatration concerns. It doesn't really matter what you use, even a .22 will penatrate dry wall enough to risk at least major injury to others if you miss. I'm only concerned about overpenatration through an attacker and then through dry wall and potentially causing harm to others (rifle calibers especially, with the exception of .223, has a problem with this).

You also might want to find out why that 9mm carbine isn't reliable enough for HD. It isn't necessarily unreliable, it is just that the mag is really sensitive. If it isn't inserted just right it won't fire (and it can easily "trick" you into thinking it is seated properly when it isn't). I pretty much know how to get it in right the first time so that it will be fine, and that is ok at the range, but I'd hate to rely on that for HD (what if I didn't insert it just right when I most needed it). Otherwise it is 100%.

[Mike Irwin]

9mm carbine not reliable for HD?

Funny...

I've got about 900 rounds through my Marlin Camp Carbine now...

Haven't cleaned it yet.

With ZERO failures to feed.

With ZERO failures to fire.

With ZERO failures to eject.

Oh that my crappy SKS were so reliable. I average 1 to 2 random failures per 1000 rounds in my SKS...

And what, pray tell, would make a .40 carbine more reliable than a 9mm carbine? Or a .45?

Can't think of a single logical thing.

[chaim]

Mike, I love my Marlin 60 so I really wouldn't mind a Marlin Camp Carbine (either the 9mm or .45acp) and I also would like a Ruger PC9 or PC4 if I saw a used one at a good price (and at a good time). Of course, for me I'd prefer something else for primary HD long gun duties (though with a good auto pistol caliber carbine it could take occasional duty in that role) so it would be mainly for fun. My Hi-Point Carbine is ok, but due to the above mentioned mag seating issues I'd only want to trust it for the range. My main issue with 9mm (or .45acp or .40S&W) in a long gun is that it isn't really any more powerful in a long gun than a handgun (unlike revolver calibers, esp. the magnums, which can take advantage of the longer barrels, the auto pistol calibers are designed to take full advantage of shorter barrels). Still, they do at least give you a longer sight radius so late at night and in the dark they do give some advantage over a handgun (easier to aim), just not as much as a revolver caliber, .223, or a shotgun.

Oh, my SKS has never failed yet (1000s of rounds), though I do need a new safety (a friend wasn't very careful and snapped it off).

[rayra]

"Some people seem to misunderstand my overpenatration concerns. ... I'm only concerned about overpenatration through an attacker and then through dry wall..."

Sorry, but your apparent expectation of 'No Misses' is ridiculously optimistic, and totally unrealistic.

[Mike Irwin]

Chaim,

Want to buy my Camp Carbine?

Make me an offer...

Very good condition, no real nicks or blemishes that I can remember, typical stinky trigger, 2 10-round magazines and 1 13-rounder (I think).

[Bowlcut]

out of my hi point i can only think of 1 time i had any hickup out of now over 1000 rounds of winchester white box. i didnt do my normal routine of smacking the mag well. i loaded up a mag of darrin's old stuff to burn though it since he didnt have a 9mm anymore. i was at the bench sat down, i put the mag in with my thumb and that was it, bolt was closed but wasnt a full mag. second round didnt chamber. all because i changed my routine. but that has been it. i stay my routine i get 0 failures.

but oh well. it goes bang. it stays beside front door so going though a wall isnt a major concern. 20ga by the bed. i really dont see much of a use for a HD carbine in an urban environment. but thats me. id rather have a shotty for any interior work, with a few slugs handy or in the tube if you gota reach out and touch someone. back up pistol and im happy enough. now out in the country where a 4 legged preditor might be an issue thats when id want a carbine of some sort.

[chaim]

Sorry, but your apparent expectation of 'No Misses' is ridiculously optimistic, and totally unrealistic. I think you miss my point. I never said that I was such a good shot that I would never miss. What I did say is that I am not worried about a caliber that won't "overpenatrate" if you miss, because every caliber suitable for self defense will penatrate sheet rock or plaster board. If you hit, I don't want a caliber that is likely to go through the BG and hit someone else. If you miss, again, no caliber (including .22lr) will be safe from going through basic home building materials.

[chaim]

Mike, I might be interested except what it is worth is one thing and what I can afford to offer right now is another and I'd probably be at least $100 below its worth. If you still have it in a few months it is possible I might be interested though.

[chaim]

For the shotgun guys:

I'm not 100% sure why I don't want a shotgun as my primary gun in this role. I will get another, but it will be more for fun and when I want something different from my usual. I do plan to get one (and I had one in the past that I loved) so it isn't that I don't like the recoil or don't like shotguns. However, true or not, I am convinced that the noise level might be a little more than I'd like indoors (.223 has the same problem). Also, ammo selection is very important. Birdshot may be too light and not penatrate enough to effectively stop someone, 00 or 000 buck may overpenatrate too much. #1 buck is a problem, only in that one should practice with what one uses and even with a shotgun it is important to be familiar with the shot pattern. The only local range that allows shotgun use with shot (not counting trap and skeet ranges where you won't really see the pattern) only allows lead 00 or 000 buck. Also, I may simply want something different to be different (I do like to buck trends). A .223 or a magnum revolver caliber in a carbine both give very good stopping power (maybe not quite the level of 00 buckshot, but still very good) and the .357mag and .44mag carbine shouldn't be too loud (more powder is burned up in the barrel than in a revolver so it would probably be much quieter than in a revolver).

All that said, my next gun in this catagory is probably going to be a shotgun due to finances (a new shotgun is probably the most cost effective HD gun, only a used shotgun is better). I may get my primary planned HD gun first, a .357mag (or maybe .44mag) lever carbine, but even the cheapest of those is more than most pump shotguns and money is limited right now (I'm a grad student who works occasionally as a substitute teacher). However, I have decided to drop to part-time in school as soon as I can and start working full-time again within a couple months (I'm sick of being broke and I'm sick of being a 33 year old living with my parents) so soon I will have more money and I'll be buying the carbine(s) I want soon.

[Art Eatman]

Chaim, if you actually have to use a self-defense gun indoors, the odds are that you're going to be pumping so much adrenalin you'll never notice the noise of the shot.

You could well be going, "Huh?" for a little while, afterwards, of course.

I don't get all that excited over shooting Bambi, but I've never really noticed the noise or recoil when I "touch her off". Adrenalin does affect you.

:), Art

[chaim]

Yeah, Art I understand that at the time the noise might not be noticed and even if it is it is the least of one's worries. If the loudest gun, garaunteed to cause hearing damage, was the only effective option- I'd use it. However, there are several effective choices and one of the more effective choices (the three best being a .357 or .44mag carbine, a .223, or a shotgun) one is relatively quiet.

Anyway, I'm more worried about perminant hearing damage than short-term discomfort. When I was a teenager I was into heavy metal, I listened to my music way too loud (especially out of headphones), and I went to a few too many concerts. Also, in basic training, just before our last shoot, I lost my earplugs. Instead of getting reamed out by the Drill Sergeants and also sitting out the shoot (I loved the M16 and the plugs fell out of their container sometime that day) I figured I'd be ok just that once. Well, 100-150 or so .223 rifles going off at once (a few platoons) on the same firing line gets real loud, outdoors doesn't help. Anyway, the point being that I already have some tinnitus (occasional ringing or buzzing in the ears that starts randomly and lasts from a few minutes to a few days at a time). I really don't need any more damage.

[Mike Irwin]

Chaim,

Yep, I'll still have it, unless someone comes up to me waving a wad of money.

If when your situation changes, and you think you want it, we'll get together, you can look it over, and we'll talk turkey then.

I can afford to do a fairly good price on it for you.