Anything larger than .454 Casull in 6-shooters?


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ChCx2744
March 2, 2009, 05:24 AM
I have a fairly interesting question I have been pondering about...

I was doing some research on revolvers. I have noticed that the larger calibers like the .475, .480 and .500 are only availible in 5-shot revolvers, but the .454 Casull is availible in 6-shot revolvers. I was wondering, if anyone knew about any firearm companies/manufacturers that produced revolvers in any larger calibers than the .454 Casull that offer 6-shot capacity revolvers? I know 5 shots with these big calibers should be enough for anything walking on 4 legs, but I want to know if I can find a revolver than offers 6 very high caliber, powerful shots. :)

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C-grunt
March 2, 2009, 05:57 AM
.460 mag?

ChCx2744
March 2, 2009, 06:08 AM
the only .460 mags i could read about on the net were 5-shooters

RippinSVT
March 2, 2009, 06:09 AM
.460 is more or less a .454, although some will argue with my about that.

ChCx2744
March 2, 2009, 06:12 AM
well thats why im confused. the .460 has the same diameter of the .454, but why can't i find a .460 6-shooter? there are 6-shooter .454's, but no .460's. that is wierd. its the same size AROUND so um...yea

the sw .460 revolver can supposedly fire .454 rounds yea, but...ugh..lol im actually getting sleepy searching around the web for this

i read that there is a ruger srh .480 that offered a 6-shot capacity, but due to extraction failures of spent casings after empty, they discontiunued making the 6-shot .480s and rechambered the cylinders for 5-shooters; therefore my search continues :)

same thing with the taurus model 480

Kind of Blued
March 2, 2009, 07:07 AM
The issue isn't fitting the cartridges into a cylinder. The issue is fitting six extremely powerful, high-pressure cartridges into a cylinder which has enough heft and bulk (especially between the chambers) to keep from exploding in your face.

Technically, an N-frame S&W cylinder is big enough to make six chambers to accomodate the .460 S&W Mag, but would you shoot it?

I wouldn't.

ArmedBear
March 2, 2009, 11:55 AM
There's another problem, ChCx2744.

.475 Linebaugh cartridges are only rated for having 4 adjacent rounds fired. If you shoot 5 rounds next to a cartridge, it is officially considered unsafe and should be discarded. Therefore, nobody would make a 6-shooter for it.

.480 Ruger was available in a 6-shooter, but I think that it's a dying cartridge now.:(

CDNN is selling off some Smiths and some BFRs in large calibers, BTW, if you're interested.

As I've posted before, I tend to think that the .44 Magnum (which can be loaded a lot hotter and heavier than factory .44, at least in some revolvers) might be the largest practical round -- meaning that it doesn't take any special handling, it fits in a standard 6-shooters, etc.

Kind of Blued
March 2, 2009, 02:38 PM
.475 Linebaugh cartridges are only rated for having 4 adjacent rounds fired. If you shoot 5 rounds next to a cartridge, it is officially considered unsafe and should be discarded. Therefore, nobody would make a 6-shooter for it.

What?

ArmedBear
March 2, 2009, 02:53 PM
Source: http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23916/catid/11/Lyman__039_s_Pistol_and_Revolver_Reloading_Handbook__Third_Edition_

Lyman's Pistol and Revolver Reloading Handbook, 3rd Edition

Redhawk1
March 2, 2009, 08:16 PM
460 is not a 454 Casull not matter what anyone thinks, Show me a 454 Casull that will shoot a 200 gr. bullet 2300 fps. The case capacity for the 460 is a lot larger than the 454 Casull.. The 460 Mag will shot a 390 gr. bullet with no problems at all, the 454 Casull will not match it.

Who said the 480 is a dyeing breed, that is nonsense, the 480 Ruger is a hell of a lot better round than the 454 Casull and 44 Mag. People that actually use them know the real value of the 480 Ruger.

Now with that out of the way.

The 460, 500, 475 Linebaugh, 500 Linebaugh are powerful cartridges, you need a lot of beef in the cylinder to contain the pressures. The 480 Ruger is a six shot, and as far as the problem with the cases sticking in the cylinder, I do not experience that at all in my 480 Ruger. I did in my 454 Casull though.

You want a good six shot revolver with a lot of power, get a Ruger 480. All the power you will ever need.

Alex Garcia
___________________________________________________________________________
Home Of The Big Bore Handgun Hunter
375 H&H, 375 JDJ, 410 GNR, 44 Mag, 45 Win Mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 45-70 Gov't, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh, 500 Mag, 510 GNR.
___________________________________________________________________________

Redhawk1
March 2, 2009, 08:20 PM
.475 Linebaugh cartridges are only rated for having 4 adjacent rounds fired. If you shoot 5 rounds next to a cartridge, it is officially considered unsafe and should be discarded. Therefore, nobody would make a 6-shooter for it.

You need to talk to Jack Huntington. He is a gunsmith and does a 475 Linebaugh conversion on Ruger Super Redhawk's chambered in 480 Ruger with 6 shot cylinders.

Alex Garcia
___________________________________________________________________________
Home Of The Big Bore Handgun Hunter
375 H&H, 375 JDJ, 410 GNR, 44 Mag, 45 Win Mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 45-70 Gov't, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh, 500 Mag, 510 GNR.
___________________________________________________________________________

ArmedBear
March 2, 2009, 08:22 PM
Who said the 480 is a dyeing breed, that is nonsense, the 480 Ruger is a hell of a lot better round than the 454 Casull and 44 Mag. People that actually use them know the real value of the 480 Ruger.

I didn't say I didn't like it.

Ruger and Magnum Research have quit supporting it. No more guns, no more cartridge, unfortunately.

Redhawk1
March 2, 2009, 08:25 PM
In my opinion Ruger is dumb. The 480 Ruger is a bad A$$ round.

I think if they put out a 5 shot Blackhawk, it would be a big seller. JMHO...

ArmedBear
March 2, 2009, 10:38 PM
Maybe so, but they're not.

I like the cartridge, too. I have ever since I shot one. Was contemplating getting the SRH in .480 when it was discontinued.

.480 is a big, but practical, round. It hits a nice "sweet spot" between recoil and power.

Unlike the .454, .460 and .500, you didn't hear people say, "Yeah, I tried it. No thanks." about the .480.

However, you also didn't have the people with money to burn buying up .480 SRHs for the hell of it.

Smith and Wesson won this marketing battle with the .500, and they're milking it for all it's worth.

To see the fallout, look through the current CDNN catalog.

Redhawk1
March 3, 2009, 08:16 AM
I bought my 454 Casull, then my 500 Mag then the 460 Mag. I still own them guns, yet I still went out and bought a SRH in 480 Ruger, I am also having a custom 475 Linebaugh built.

Magnum Research still has the 480/ 475 Linebaugh listed on there web site. http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR480-475

Lloyd Smale
March 3, 2009, 08:36 AM
John linebaugh has made a couple 475 linebaughs with 6 holes.

devildog66
March 3, 2009, 08:54 AM
If the Ruger 480 is not dying then it is on life support! The merits of the cartridge notwithstanding, not enough people wanted them/perceived value in the cartridge so it goes on the pile with all of the other "great" unwanted cartridges - in the larger market. Not to mention, thems 480 cartridges are expensive bullet flingers compared to 44M cartridges of similar perceived power levels.

As far as the OP's question, it is more a matter of sheer mass of cylinder diameter. The cartridges are not fatter but a 460 SW has a hell of a lot more pressure than a +P+ 44M or even a 454. Takes more stuff in between the holes to soak that pressure up without distorting.

Redhawk1
March 3, 2009, 09:06 AM
Anyone shooting a big bore handgun needs to reload. The price to reload a 44 Mag or 500 Mag is not that much of a difference. So the price of loaded factory ammo should not be the factor in purchasing any round unless you plan on not reloading. But don't expect to do a lot of shooting if you only buy factory ammo.

I will still pick a 480 Ruger over a 44 Mag any day. :)

22-rimfire
March 3, 2009, 10:14 AM
The best bigger than 44 caliber handgun round out there is the 480 Ruger. No question in my mind. Ruger screwed up dropping production. I'd buy another 480, but I have no practical use for the 460 or 500 even though I looked at them closely when they were introduced.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 3, 2009, 10:30 AM
But if you reload, the .500 can be loaded down to .480 levels, so I can well see why .480 is dying.

You don't WANT one of these with 6 holes - why increase your danger level for no reason? In fact, you don't WANT a .454 casull with 6 holes, except maybe a giant revolver like the BFR. These are *extremely* high pressure rounds, particularly the .454 casull - you want as much margin of safety as possible.

Redhawk1
March 3, 2009, 10:52 AM
But if you reload, the .500 can be loaded down to .480 levels, so I can well see why .480 is dying.

You don't WANT one of these with 6 holes - why increase your danger level for no reason? In fact, you don't WANT a .454 casull with 6 holes, except maybe a giant revolver like the BFR. These are *extremely* high pressure rounds, particularly the .454 casull - you want as much margin of safety as possible.

The 480 is dying because people don't understand it's full potential, plain and simple.

Also there is nothing wrong with a 6 "hole" 480 or 454 Casull. Can you give me the reference where you come up with that information?

I have not read one thing about the 480 or 454 Casull being unsafe with a 6 shot set up.

ArmedBear
March 3, 2009, 12:00 PM
The price to reload a 44 Mag or 500 Mag is not that much of a difference.

Hell, the price difference between handloaded .357 and the bigger rounds is far less than most people recognize.

The best bigger than 44 caliber handgun round out there is the 480 Ruger. No question in my mind. Ruger screwed up dropping production.

Agreed on all counts.

The 480 is dying because people don't understand it's full potential, plain and simple.


Yes, indeed.

And because people have bought .500 S&Ws as high-dollar novelty items.

I'm kind of a practical-minded person when things hit the 4-figure mark. I sure don't have to have the "biggest" when I can have the best, instead.

But even here on THR, there are some (IMO juvenile) posters who think that my caliber purchase decisions are some sort of personal affront to their manhood. Or, they think that I must envy them because they have some gun, despite the fact that, when I decided which one to buy, I looked at, and would have bought, one like theirs if I thought it was a good way to spend my money.:rolleyes:

Also, I've read here that what's important about, say, wilderness defense is that you feel secure, and of course a .500 makes you feel more like you could stop a grizz than a .480 does, so the .500 must be better.

Sometimes I think that the mere presence of large-caliber revolvers really can activate the "stupid" reflex.

The .480 is a wonderful round. I never had all that much interest in the SRH in .454 Casull, but the .480 version was on my "buy" list. Didn't care if it had 5 rounds, or 6. Maybe I will look at the Casull at some point, but it will be done grudgingly.:)

Unfortunately, I don't have the means to just buy all of them and let God sort 'em out, at the moment.:D

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 3, 2009, 12:46 PM
What's the .480s "potential"? It's a .475 Linebaugh Short, so it has less potential than a cartridge which already existed when it came out.

Redhawk1
March 3, 2009, 01:21 PM
For the person that does not need to extra power of the 475 Linebaugh, the 480 is a good choice. And in my opinion, out performs the 44 Mag by a long shot.
Bigger hole's is what I want for my handgun hunting.

Also still waiting for your reference about the 480 or 454 Casull being unsafe with a 6 shot set up.

ArmedBear
March 3, 2009, 01:28 PM
The only round that I've ever read has any safety issues with 6 shots is a .475 Linebaugh. That may no longer be true with custom cases, since AFAIK they're formed from thicker brass than .45-70 cases are.

OTOH a 6-shot revolver with the large-diameter cases might just get more unwieldy than most gunmakers figure people would want.

You CAN build a 5-shot .600 Nitro Express revolver, and it does work.

http://www.vincelewis.net/50magnum/600-gun-5.JPG

Presumably, a 6-shot in a smaller caliber would work, also. It just would get pretty fat.

ChCx2744
March 4, 2009, 04:34 AM
I would not buy one of the pre-production Rugers in .480 with 6-shots...From the reason they gave alone on why they stopped production is enough to scare me. I think I'll just stick with .44 Magnum. :)

Redhawk1
March 4, 2009, 08:51 AM
I would not buy one of the pre-production Rugers in .480 with 6-shots...From the reason they gave alone on why they stopped production is enough to scare me. I think I'll just stick with .44 Magnum.

It just goes to show how much people know. The reason Ruger stopped producing the 480 Ruger was not because of problems, but lack of sales. It was a business decision.

I wish people would do some research before posting misinformation.

GUNKWAZY
March 4, 2009, 10:23 AM
Sorry, I got the party late.
Once upon a time there were huge 6 shot revolvers made by Century MFG.
They made big 6 shot revolvers in 45-70, .444 Marlin and even a 50-70.
There was rumors a while back about the name being bought and production was to start up again, but I have not heard anything lately.
The Century model shown (bottom) is a 6 shot in 50-70 Government as compared to the little 5 shot 500 magnum S&W above.

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq172/toykwazy/century6.jpg

Jeff (GUNKWAZY)

ChCx2744
June 6, 2009, 10:27 PM
Redhawk1, I am almost certain I did read on mechanical problems as well on the .480 Ruger 6 wheelies. It was not entirely a buisness decision. From what I RECALL, I believe it had something to do with the space in between each round on the chamber being too thin/frail, resulting in swells, cracks, stuck casings. Don't quote me EXACTLY, but that is what I RECALL from my latent memories. I will attempt to find the article(s) again and post links; until then, standby please :)

Redhawk1
June 6, 2009, 11:17 PM
ChCx2744, the 454 Casull runs at a much higher pressure than the 480 Ruger. Ruger is still making 6 shot 454 Casull's. The problem with the 480 Ruger was, lack of sales. The made a business decision based on simple economics. I phone call to Ruger could clear this up for you.

As far as the stuck cases, the 454 Casull had the same issues.

But if you find the article, please post it.

goodtime
June 7, 2009, 02:25 AM
Century sold the rights to Super Six Ltd, who still makes the Bison Bull Super Six to this day:

www.bisonbull.com

Stainz
June 7, 2009, 10:38 AM
I found the Ruger sight eight+ years ago to answer the question of why some Hornady and MagTech .454s stuck in my early-production 7.5" .454 SRH. That Ruger SRH was bought because of the engineering report I read re it's design and machining. It's SS, and the .480 Ruger, is a NASA offshoot, not the similar to 4140 castings used in the .44 SRH. The .454 SRH was tested to 120kpsi+. I didn't investigate the .480 Ruger variant - it didn't interest me - then. Oh yeah, the sticking cases - Hornady admitted to using softer brass - easier to subsequently resize. They would replace the '99 and '00 lots with good hard brass - and I never had another stick. Later MagTechs were better, too. The RMS roughness of that .454 SRH's as-delivered chambers was uncannily low - as mirror like as a S&W. The only Ruger I sold - and missed.

The Alaskan short barrel SRH's arrived. After shooting the .454 - then the .480 Ruger - I had to have the latter. That first run was it. They announced a later run of it and the long .480 SRHs - in 5-shot. They may have gone to 4140 - or something similar. Anyway, no .475 Linebaugh-Special, aka .480 Ruger, here - I have never even seen a 5-shot.

Now - about math. My favorite .454 Casull round was the Hornady 240gr XTP - which I chrono-ed at 1.995 kfps - that hits 2130 ft-lb. The .460 Round - 200gr at 2.3 kfps - is nearly 10% higher - but that's it. The promises of a gain-twist rifling getting 2.6+ kfps just couldn't be realized. If I wanted more oomph than a .454, I'd go to the S&W .500 Magnum. Of course, as I near 61 years, I am enjoying 'smaller' pleasures, my last revolver being a 617 (.22 LR).

Still... if I found an Alaskan in .480 Ruger, I'd be tempted... I think it is a far better addition to our revolver world than the .327 Magnum Ruger co-authored... but what do I know... I thought Edsels were neat!

Stainz

buck460XVR
June 7, 2009, 12:24 PM
........always amazes me how virtually every question turns into a caliber "war" or a "my gun is better than your gun" regardless of what the original post was.


I believe Kind of Blued answer the original question correctly in reply #6.

Redhawk1
June 7, 2009, 01:16 PM
I don't see where this is a mine is better then your's thread.

Hell I own every caliber talked about here.

I think everyone of most knows why large calibers in revolvers are held to 5 shots. Cylinder space and strength. It is that simple.

Ed Ames
June 7, 2009, 02:44 PM
My problem with the .480 is that it doesn't provide the feature I want. :)

The .475 bore kills ready access to cheap bulk cast lead bullets for general shooting. That makes it less desirable to people like me who want to be able to shoot mostly cheapish light loads and still have the option of high power at need.

Regarding the original question: I wonder how much that 6th chamber worth in real use? Not much for me.

Redhawk1
June 7, 2009, 02:55 PM
I never bought a big bore caliber handgun to shoot light loads. I bought big bore handguns to hunt with. If I want to shoot light loads, I shoot my 357 Mag. :evil:

Ed Ames
June 7, 2009, 03:09 PM
Why not hunt with the .357? Many do as far as I can tell.

Redhawk1
June 7, 2009, 05:12 PM
Because I find the 357 Mag marginal at best for deer. Sure it will kill a deer, but as long as shots are under 30 yards.

I am not going to get into a debate as to why I feel this way, but that is how I feel about the 357 Mag. Plus I like bigger holes in the animals I hunt.

Last thing I want to do is shoot a black bear with a 357 Mag, and have to track it in the dark not knowing if the bullet did the job, when I know if I shoot it with a larger bore bullet, I can expect more damage. And I am not saying shot placement does not matter, because I believe, no matter what you are using, shot placement is key.

It all comes down to personal preference.

Ed Ames
June 7, 2009, 05:31 PM
That last line is what I was fishing for. I was worried for a second that you wouldn't include it. :)

My personal preference for pistol plinking is moderate weight (250ish grain) subsonic loads....but if I can use the same gun to nudge something with over 1500 ft-lbs of impact energy... hey, I'm not going to say no. :)

I think a lot more people shoot guns for fun than hunt with them. I could be wrong but assuming I'm not... the 480 ruger, because it doesn't offer the load options and has no "gateway" cartridge anyone is likely to fire, seems like a really hard sell.

Redhawk1
June 7, 2009, 06:26 PM
Sure I like to just shoot my handguns, but I got my big bore handguns for hunting. If I want to just plink, I will grab one of my .22 LR handguns.

As for your comment on the 480 Ruger, if you want to shoot light loads, reload.

As for your gateway cartridge, what are you referring to, a lighter round that can be used, such as the 38 in a 357 Mag?

I don't buy big caliber handgun with the intent on using a special or lighter loads in it.

The Wiry Irishman
June 7, 2009, 06:38 PM
Once upon a time there were huge 6 shot revolvers made by Century MFG.
They made big 6 shot revolvers in 45-70, .444 Marlin and even a 50-70.
There was rumors a while back about the name being bought and production was to start up again, but I have not heard anything lately.

That's true. A friend of mine is a partner in that company. They're not quite to the production point yet, but they're working on it. He's a member here, I'll link him to the thread and see if he has anything to say.

Here's a picture of one of their prototypes in .45-70 next to my 629. The .45-70 is actually a softer shooter, but that square trigger guard will get you.

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~alowe/4570.jpg

Ed Ames
June 7, 2009, 06:53 PM
Sure I like to just shoot my handguns, but I got my big bore handguns for hunting. If I want to just plink, I will grab one of my .22 LR handguns.

As for your comment on the 480 Ruger, if you want to shoot light loads, reload.

As for your gateway cartridge, what are you referring to, a lighter round that can be used, such as the 38 in a 357 Mag?

I don't buy big caliber handgun with the intent on using a special or lighter loads in it.

Umm... okay....

"Reload"? You miss the point. .475 bullets cost $0.186 each (and average around $0.50 each). .45 are pretty commonly around $0.125. Everything else will cost more for the .475. The price difference is basically the fact that the .454 shooter can ride the coattails of far more popular rounds to cheap shooting. Not a big deal for you? I bet you don't buy the $0.186/ea bullets either. :) Individuals differ.

Gateway cartridge: popular cartridge which creates a market for a magnum version appealing to shooters who say, "it's like buying another of what I already have/like/have ammo and components for, but more." Examples: .38 special, .32 H&R (arguably .32S&W), .44 special, .45 colt. .480 Ruger does not have one.

I wasn't trying to tell you why YOU used something. I was pretty sure I meant "me" to refer to, well, me from my perspective. :)

longhorngunman
June 7, 2009, 07:56 PM
Ruger's .454 six shooter is more than strong enough, as I recall they proof test the loads at 90,000psi, the .454's max saami pressure a "puny" 65,000psi ain't gonna hurt that gun. Heard of issues in the Taurus's though. I don't deny that the 460 has more oompth but it ain't by much unless factory loads are just too light. As long as that case is I figured they could hit that 2500fps threshold. I can zing a 240gr xtp out at 2000fps in my Ruger but that's as far as I'll push it!:eek:

kc9fgq
June 7, 2009, 08:19 PM
Century sold the rights to Super Six Ltd, who still makes the Bison Bull Super Six to this day:

www.bisonbull.com

The Super Six Ltd line of .45-70 revolvers comes from the fact that the original owners of Century MFG, the company that made the original .45-70 revolvers in Evansville, IN, had a "falling-out" and split companies. One owner stayed in Evansville and continued making .45-70 and other caliber revolvers under the Century MFG name while the other owner left and possibly sold the rights to Super Six Ltd. I am not sure of the Super Six Ltd history, as I am only familiar with the company records from Century Mfg, which was bought and moved to Greenfield, IN by a Dr. Paul Majors, then was bought and moved to Knightstown, IN. It was again bought and moved back to Greenfield where the name was changed to New Century MFG and is currently in pre-production due to a design change. The new design will implement a transfer-bar safety instead of the original cross-bolt safety, as the Super Six Ltd still uses. Production dates are still undetermined. The first batch of production revolvers will be chambered in .45-70, with more options developing later.

All previous Century Mfg revolvers, maybe except for the ones chambered in more exotic calibers, were 6 shooters, to the best of my knowledge.

Ed Ames
June 7, 2009, 09:22 PM
Main innate advantage of 5 shot, AFAIK, is the cylinder stop grooves can be offset further from the chamber. If you look at a typical 6-shot cylinder the cylinder stop cutouts are basically aligned with the chambers. 5 shots almost put those cutouts between the chambers.

That means even if the chamber walls can be of more uniform thickness without really bulking up the cylinder.

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