Best subsonic caliber?


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jlg
March 2, 2009, 01:19 PM
Anyone have any opinions as to which caliber has the best subsonic offerings?

The three variables I'm trying to weigh are...
1) quietness
2) effectiveness on a live target
3) range

I have a suppressed 308 bolt gun that is extremely quite with subsonics. However, I've yet to shoot anything with it to see how well the subsonics will work. It's also dropping like a rock out past about 50 yards.

Obviously bolt guns are going to be quieter than semi-automatics. I'm still waiting on the ATF paperwork to come back on my 5.56 suppressor to see just how quiet it is compared to my 308.

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indoorsoccerfrea
March 2, 2009, 01:20 PM
.22 is pretty neat with subsonics, but that may not be what you were looking for. i havent noticed any substantial accuracy decrease with a .22 rifle using subsonics, out to around 80 yards...

Funderb
March 2, 2009, 01:21 PM
300 whisper, i believe is what it was, is a very fun round to shoot, and makes no noise at all.

jlg
March 2, 2009, 01:44 PM
I have a suppressed 10/22 as well and it is very quiet but 30gr subsonic .22lr ammo is definitely not the ideal "killing" round. Although maybe the Aquila Snipers, maybe? I think they're 60gr.

As far as quietness goes, I would think the smaller the caliber the quieter the shot. My thinking is that as the bore diameter gets larger more gas (noise) will escape out of the bore rather than being trapped by the baffles. Using that thinking the quietness ranking (all being subsonics) would look something like...
.22LR
5.56
300 Whisper
308WIN
300WM
338Lapua

For effectiveness, since they're all traveling at basically the same speed, I would think the heavier the bullet the better. Are there any flaws to that thinking?

Effectiveness will also depend on the bullet make-up. How well does the bullet expand at low velocities, etc.

For range, again since they're all traveling at the same speed, I would think the lighter bullets would have less bullet drop?

jlg
March 2, 2009, 01:47 PM
I know the 300 Whisper has a pretty big following in the suppressed/subsonic community. What is it about this particular round that makes it so great?

I would prefer ammo that I can purchase rather than have to reload. One day I'll get into reloading but I've got too many hobbies as it is right now, I don't need to add yet another one.

jlg
March 2, 2009, 01:49 PM
I guess I shouldn't rule out pistol calibers as well...
9mm
45ACP (already subsonic)

1858rem
March 2, 2009, 03:07 PM
As far as quietness goes, I would think the smaller the caliber the quieter the shot. My thinking is that as the bore diameter gets larger more gas (noise) will escape out of the bore rather than being trapped by the baffles


but being a larger bore diameter, it would give more room for the expanding gas to loose pressure before it exits the barrel wouldnt it?


i think low pressure, large caliber should be quietest, how about a subsonic 45-70:evil: with a suppressor and long barrel:D


mostly my thinking is that the large barrel volume acts on its own as sort of a supressor...maybe:uhoh:

Spyvie
March 2, 2009, 03:22 PM
Don't know what the heck I'm talking about here, but off the top of my head I would think that if you are limited to subsonic speeds then you want the heaviest projectile you can get.

Wouldn't a 200gr bullet gonig 900fps have more effectiveness on a live target than a 60gr bullet going the same speed?

just stating the obvious...

1858rem
March 2, 2009, 03:34 PM
and a 500g in a 45-70........

actually id look for high BC to have the least drop if going subsonic

MT GUNNY
March 2, 2009, 03:44 PM
.45 ACP W/ Suppressor

freakshow10mm
March 2, 2009, 03:51 PM
.300 Whisper. A 8 inch twist is just enough to stabilize a subsonic round and when it hits it's target the bullet tumbles. It kills a lot better than the paper suggests. Inside 250y, the .300 Whisper has no equal.

jlg
March 2, 2009, 04:03 PM
Is anyone mass producing ammo for the Whisper or do you pretty much need to purchase reloading equipment when you build one?

Lazuris
March 2, 2009, 04:08 PM
Try Here 1st http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/index.html

deacon8
March 2, 2009, 04:24 PM
In my opinion, the .45 ACP is the best subsonic round. For what it is, it is an extremely effective round. And you don't lose any effectivness trying to make it subsonic, because it already is.

A silenced pistol in .45 ACP is a wonderfully quite and potent weapon. With a good setup, you can hear the "slap" of the slide after firing.

MGshaggy
March 2, 2009, 04:44 PM
A silenced pistol in .45 ACP is a wonderfully quite and potent weapon.

And significantly less quiet than a suppressed 9mm in 147 or 158 gr.

crushbup
March 2, 2009, 04:45 PM
.45 ACP is not quiet suppressed.

Mike U.
March 2, 2009, 04:52 PM
.22 LR wins this contest.

jlg
March 2, 2009, 05:13 PM
The 300 Whisper would probably be my choice if it weren't for the "no factory ammo" thing. Can you buy already loaded ammo anywhere?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 2, 2009, 05:56 PM
1) quietness
2) effectiveness on a live target
3) range


The .500 Phantom is unbeatable in that area:

http://www.feistyrooster.com/500phantom/index.html

But since .50 cal suppressors are VERY expensive, the .338 spectre is the next best thing, and reasonable to get into to with a 9mm suppressor:

http://www.reedsammo.com/Page4.html

.300 Whisper comes in 3rd place.

rangerruck
March 2, 2009, 09:40 PM
I am going to say the Whisper as well; I am thinking over all availability, reloading, cost, quietness, the can you will need, etc.

freakshow10mm
March 2, 2009, 11:18 PM
CorBon now loads factory .300 Whisper subsonic ammunition.

jlg
March 3, 2009, 10:38 AM
.45 ACP is not quiet suppressed.

I've heard that before as well. Why is that?

Also, I've seen some people that have built 44mag rifles - suppressed using subsonic ammo. Anyone know how effective they are?

Gordon
March 3, 2009, 11:15 AM
I have a 788 Remington 22" barrel in .44 Mag that I load 320 grain LBT WFP bullets over enough Winchester 231 to get 900 fps at the muzzle. A big pop at the muzzle doesn't seem to disturb the neighbors. The big WHACK on the deer nibbling on my apple trees seems almost as loud. None have run off in the last 10 years .

jlg
March 3, 2009, 11:29 AM
I have a 788 Remington 22" barrel in .44 Mag that I load 320 grain LBT WFP bullets over enough Winchester 231 to get 900 fps at the muzzle. A big pop at the muzzle doesn't seem to disturb the neighbors. The big WHACK on the deer nibbling on my apple trees seems almost as loud. None have run off in the last 10 years .

What kind of range do you get with it?

jerkface11
March 3, 2009, 11:31 AM
.38 special is quiet out of a rifle without a can on it. So with one you probably won't be able to tell it went off.

jlg
March 3, 2009, 11:34 AM
I'd like to have something that's accurate out to at least 100 yards...150 yards ideally...200 yards would be beautiful.

The farther away from my target I can be the less important absolute quietness needs to be.

gvnwst
March 3, 2009, 11:38 AM
The whisper can hit accuratly at 200yd, fairly easily. You just have to adjust for the 65" of drop at that distance.

jlg
March 3, 2009, 11:43 AM
It's starting to look like the whisper is going to be king in this category...

What makes it better than a 200grain subsonic 308? If velocities are basically the same; bullet diameter is the same; bullet weight is about the same...isn't the only real difference the case?

jerkface11
March 3, 2009, 11:43 AM
If you go with .357/38 special you can have a LEVER gun with a can on it!!! Think of the awesomeness of that.

gvnwst
March 3, 2009, 11:47 AM
It's starting to look like the whisper is going to be king in this category...

What makes it better than a 200grain subsonic 308? If velocities are basically the same; bullet diameter is the same; bullet weight is about the same...isn't the only real difference the case?

With a cartridge that has so much case capacity (the .308) you have the problem of HUGE extreme spreads in velocity. SOme people have even gotten bullets STUCK in the barrel, they were so slow. Also, short barrels, 8"-12" work best with subsonic cartridges. It would be like taking a .220 swift, 40gr bullets, and trying to put them downrange at 800fps, something it was not meant to do. The best subsonic cartridges are the ones porpouse made for it.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 3, 2009, 12:11 PM
It's starting to look like the whisper is going to be king in this category...


Only if you didn't see my post on page 1, which clearly explained otherwise. :)

Bigfoot
March 3, 2009, 01:22 PM
This is the second time I've read that a .45 bullet is harder to suppress than a .357 or .30 bullet. Please explain.

jlg
March 3, 2009, 01:46 PM
short barrels, 8"-12" work best with subsonic cartridges.
That's good to know...I would of thought the opposite - that since the bullet is traveling slower it needs more barrel (more time to get it's rotation on) in order to stabalize. I know you need a faster twist rate for subsonics.

gvnwst
March 3, 2009, 04:41 PM
The reason for faster twist is not* velocity. It is the fact that the bullets normally used in subsonic cartridges are usually very heavy for caliber, and so are much longer than normal. Such as the 240gr SMK, it is MUCH longer than a "normal" 150gr class .308" bullet. The long barrel makes for a lot of friction, and is very uneven. This is what causes the extreme extreme spreads.

*While i don't know exactly what the ratio is, some claim that the bullet must be spinning a certain RMP #, so if you have the above 240gr SMK, going at 2700fps, they claim, it not need as fast a twist as the same bullet at 1000fps. Someone to ask about that is Lutz Moller, a german ballistican, he is a genuis when it comes to this stuff.

jlg
March 3, 2009, 06:10 PM
Someone to ask about that is Lutz Moller, a german ballistican, he is a genuis when it comes to this stuff.
Next time he and I play golf together I'll ask him. :evil:

gvnwst
March 3, 2009, 06:13 PM
Next time he and I play golf together I'll ask him.
:confused: Is this some joke i am not familier with, or do you actually know him?:confused:


:neener::D:p lol

Kind of Blued
March 3, 2009, 06:18 PM
.458 Socom with a 600gr. bullet should do the trick. The hard part is having the can cutom-made.

I'd REALLY like a 16" .44 Mag Lever Action for this purpose.

jlg
March 3, 2009, 06:26 PM
Quote:
Next time he and I play golf together I'll ask him.

Is this some joke i am not familier with, or do you actually know him?


lol

Just a joke.:D

xx7grant7x
March 3, 2009, 06:31 PM
I guess I shouldn't rule out pistol calibers as well...
9mm
45ACP (already subsonic)

as was said above 147 gr 9mm and heavier is already subsonic and 9mm 147 gr is a fairly commonly produced caliber and weight

gvnwst
March 3, 2009, 06:34 PM
Just a joke.
I got that:p:D

Here is a link to his whisper page, and while those bullets aren't the most aerodynamic, they WORK. Ao, for short range where you need ZERO overpenetration, use them, and for places where you need the higher BCs, use 240gr SMKs.
http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/7,62-mm/300-Whisper-Patrone.htm

jlg
March 4, 2009, 08:05 AM
At the risk of sounding incredibly stupid...

What are SMKs?

gvnwst
March 4, 2009, 09:36 AM
Sierra Match King. A extremely popular match bullet. IIRC, they are the only ones that come in over 210gr .308" weights, and so are the most popular choice for the whisper too.

jlg
March 4, 2009, 10:23 AM
I already own a suppressed 308 bolt gun (18" barrel). I've shot EBR Thumpers 180gr (http://www.ebr-inc.net/762ThumperSubsonic.html) through it and they are very accurate and extremely quiet. However, I don't know how effective they would be on a live target.

I would think it would be plenty for coyotes (my main purpose)
alright for head shots on hogs (secondary purpose)
I'd be hesitant to depend on it for anything larger (deer sized or any evil two-legged critters).

EBR also makes the 7.62mm NATO/.308 PBS - Precision Bonded Subsonic 170gr(http://www.ebr-inc.net/762PBS_PrecisionBondedSubsonic.html).
Here's a quote about this ammo from EBR
"The terminal effect has been tested on large live targets, and it is devastating and instantaneous. Trajectory is equivalent to the 7.62 Thumper. Thus, EBR is introducing a unique ammunition system, utilizing an economical precision practice round (7.62 Thumper) in conjunction with the most effective subsonic suppressed munition available in this caliber."

However, at nearly $8 per trigger pull:barf: they aren't exactly cost effective.
The Thumpers are about $2 a round...so if they'll do the trick well enough I'll just stick with them.

I'd also really like to compare the Thumper and the PBS to the 300 Whisper. If the Whisper is hands down a much better application then I might build one. If it's only marginally better I can just stick with the suppressed 308 I already have.

Thank you for all the input so far. This has been a very informative thread for me.

gvnwst
March 4, 2009, 10:51 AM
Okay, i am guessing that you either reload or are planning on it, as only one company makes .300 whisper, and it is hard to find. If so, i would suggest that you at least load your own ammo, just for costs sake, as well as better ballistics. (with the heavier more aerodynamic bullet) The whisper doesn't offer any imporvement over a subsonic load except the reason i gave earlier, less extreme spread, and then there is that it uses less powder, you don't have to keep them seperate from your other .308 loads, and they are short action. Plus if you load it supersonic, it matches the 7.62x39 and the 30-30.

To get a big benefit over the .308, you will have to move up in caliber.

jlg
March 4, 2009, 11:02 AM
gvnwst, you have provided a wealth of information. Thank you very much.

I found this interesting bullet that I believe is meant to help subsonic expansion. Anyone here read German?
http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/7,62-mm/300-Whisper-Patrone.htm:banghead:

gvnwst
March 4, 2009, 11:07 AM
I can translate some (still working on it, germann grammar is REALLY screwed up, and most courses don't teach you all the shooting terms:D), it helps that i have talked extensivly with Lutz. (that is the link i gave to his page above)

jlg
March 4, 2009, 12:30 PM
(that is the link i gave to his page above)
:o
I've been researching all over the net and couldn't remember where I found that link.

Have you had any experience with the EBR ammo?

I'm hoping to pop a coyote or two with the 308Thumper this spring...I'll post the results when I do.

jlg
March 4, 2009, 12:50 PM
Okay, based on this information...
- the smaller the casing, the less powder needed to reach velocity and the less drastic the velocity spread
- the heavier the bullet the better

Wouldn't a 230gr 45ACP Hydroshock be pretty close to equal to a 220gr SMK loaded backwards? And I would think that since the Hydroshock is designed to expand at subsonic velocities that you would get more "kill" power from it than a backwards flying SMK.

Comparing a 5.56 casing and a 45ACP casing, they seem to have pretty close to the same case volume so I wouldn't think velocity spread would be an issue.

The 45 has 50% more front surface area so it will have more drag and I would assume more vertical drop at the 200 yard range?

Of course now we coming back to the comments about "45ACP is not quiet when suppressed"...which I still have found no explanation for.

jlg
March 4, 2009, 01:04 PM
Using the ballistic calculator on EBR's website there seems to only be about a 6" difference in drop between the 230gr 45ACP and the 180gr 308 Thumper at 200 yards...considering the Thumper is already dropping about 5 feet at that range, another 6" isn't that big of a deal.

jlg
March 4, 2009, 01:17 PM
If I had an unlimited budget this probably wouldn't be such a difficult decision for me.

To understand some of my questions, here is my final goal...
1) accurate to 200 yards (A 2-3 inch group would suffice. I'm not shooting competitions, I'm killing things and everything I intend to kill has a vital zone larger than 2-3 inches.)
2) Easily attainable ammo would be nice. (I don't currently reload. I save all my brass because one day I intend to get into it. But I like the convenience of being able to just grab a box of ammo off the shelf and go shoot.)
3) Needs to be able to kill at range. (I know even a .22lr can kill at range. I want a fairly quick kill. I don't want to track an animal all the way across the county and if the weapon is ever used in a self defense scenario I want it to end the fight with one shot.) This point brings up a question about the possibility of using a 45ACP...We know the 45ACP is very capable of quickly killing people. Is it at all effective against the 4-legged variety (coyotes, pigs, deer, etc...)?

gvnwst
March 4, 2009, 01:20 PM
- the smaller the casing, the less powder needed to reach velocity and the less drastic the velocity spread

Sorta. With a abigger case you need more powder to keep the pressure up. Smaller casing, less powder for the same pressure. Heavier bullets have more energy for any given velocity, and usually have better BCs (note that a BC of .5 will drp all of 3" more, but lose 20FPE) so do slightly better.


I have not had any experiance with EBR ammo, i stay away from subsnic .308 loads. (see about half way down Lutz's page for why:D)

I do not know what you are talking about, a backwayds 220gr SMK, they are loaded the correct way. I don't know what the specs of .45 hydrashok ammo are, but the whisper loaded properly with 240gr bullets drops about 5 feet 6 inches, and has about 520 FPE at 200yd.


2) Easily attainable ammo would be nice. (I don't currently reload. I save all my brass because one day I intend to get into it. But I like the convenience of being able to just grab a box of ammo off the shelf and go shoot.)


Well then, you are pretty much limited to the EBR ammo and handgun loads. Subsonic designed cartridges don't have all that much factory ammo out there, but as before stated, Cor-Bon makes some good .300 whisper stuff, just order a bunch.

We know the 45ACP is very capable of quickly killing people. Is it at all effective against the 4-legged variety (coyotes, pigs, deer, etc...)?

Most people i have taked to who hunt with the .45acp say t is good on deer for at least 50yd, but they would not go much past that.

jlg
March 4, 2009, 01:25 PM
The backwards bullet thing came from several sites that I read. They stated that loading the bullet backwards caused it to tumble when it hit the target doing more damage.

They also stated that flying normal at subsonic speeds the sharp point would generally just push the flesh away doing little damage.

gvnwst
March 4, 2009, 01:28 PM
Intresting idea i guess. I would think that the same tumbeling that made it be good in flesh would reduce accuracy though. If i wanted the ultimate in terminal ballistics, i would order some of those bullets from Lutz.

Ranb
March 4, 2009, 02:15 PM
I own and shoot 5.56, 308, 510 whisper, 338 whisper, 300 whisper, 458 socom, 9mm, 22lr all suppressed. According to my own biased, subjective and uncalibrated ear, they are from most to least noisy; 458 socom, 5.56, 9mm, 308, 510 whisper, 338 whisper, 300 whisper then 22lr. The 458 is loudest because of the large bore and the can is much smaller than the 510. The 9mm is louder than the whispers because of the much smaller can, the 50% smaller powder charge (compared to the 300W) is not enough to keep it less noisy. The 22lr has by far the smallest powder charge and the 1x6 inch can is much large than all the others compared to the cartridge capacity. My 308 is less noisy than the 5.56 due to it being a bolt vs semi, and the can is 12" long vs the 8" 5.56 can. I only shoot supersonic in the 5.56 and 308, the rest are subsonic only.

I use WC820 (like H110) in the whispers because it gives a small stdev, it is too fast to cycle the 458 socom upper on my ar-15 when shooting subsonic.

I tried loading bullets backwards to keep them stable (front heavier than back requires less twist) but they were very inaccurate. I got better results from properly loaded ammo keyholing into the target.

It costs me about $20 to $50 plus tax to make my silencers at home. Fun hobby, just a bit more paperwork, but less expensive than loading ammo. I cast round nose bullets for the 458 socom, 510/338/300 whispers. They are a bit less accurate than jacketed bullets, but much cheaper.

Has anyone here used the Corbon 300 whisper 220 subsonic? What was the actual velocity? Pricey stuff isn't it?

Ranb

Bigfoot
March 5, 2009, 06:44 PM
Some good info there Ranb, thanks. Since your .510 Whisper isn't too loud I'd guess that a good supressor will quiet a .45 just fine.

My 308 is less noisy than the 5.56 due to it being a bolt vs semi, and the can is 12" long vs the 8" 5.56 can.

This argues for a fast action other than a semi-auto. I think the old Hush Puppy pistols used a lever to lock the slide shut.

Most people i have taked to who hunt with the .45acp say t is good on deer for at least 50yd, but they would not go much past that.

The 45ACPs limited bullet weight is a large reason for this.

I agree that a .45 caliber pistol cartridge is the best compromise in terminal performance, ammo availability, range and sound.

I went with the Taurus Thunderbolt pump in 45LC. It has a long 26" barrel for good powder burn. I can load 300+ grain bullets for good penetration while hunting. It seals the action better than a semi and it has a very short, very fast action. I haven't recieved the reloading gear for it yet but we'll see what it can do this summer. Look into it JLG.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 6, 2009, 11:17 AM
If I had an unlimited budget this probably wouldn't be such a difficult decision for me.

To understand some of my questions, here is my final goal...
1) accurate to 200 yards (A 2-3 inch group would suffice. I'm not shooting competitions, I'm killing things and everything I intend to kill has a vital zone larger than 2-3 inches.)
2) Easily attainable ammo would be nice. (I don't currently reload. I save all my brass because one day I intend to get into it. But I like the convenience of being able to just grab a box of ammo off the shelf and go shoot.)
3) Needs to be able to kill at range. (I know even a .22lr can kill at range. I want a fairly quick kill. I don't want to track an animal all the way across the county and if the weapon is ever used in a self defense scenario I want it to end the fight with one shot.) This point brings up a question about the possibility of using a 45ACP...We know the 45ACP is very capable of quickly killing people. Is it at all effective against the 4-legged variety (coyotes, pigs, deer, etc...)?

Dude, if you really want to accomplish your goal, go back and read what I wrote on page 1, and then re-read it again, and ignore anything to the contrary, or you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Lookit, assuming an accurate gun, your ability to (a) minimize wind drift estimation error, and (b) minimize holdover estimation error, are entirely dependent on TWO things (in addition to your skill): Bullet velocity, and Bullet BC. In THIS particular case, with a subsonic bullet, ONE of those two factors, muzzle velocity, is a set constant, under the speed of sound, right around 1,050 fps. That means the ONLY thing you have to work with, above and beyond skill level, which will help improve your accuracy at range (and make no mistake, 200 yards is a loooong ways with a subsonic), is BULLET BC. Particularly, wind drift estimation error.

The .500 phantom / .510 whisper uses bullet with BCs head and shoulders above (much much MUCH better) than any other subsonic round. That's the way to go if you're SERIOUS about it. However, .50 cal cans are very very expensive. 338 spectre is the next best thing, because you can use a simple 9mm pistol can with subsonic ammo, and get into it for a reasonable price. And .338 bullets have better BCs than .30 cal bullets, not to mention, more weight/energy/oomph. So .300 Whisper is not a BAD choice, but it's not as good of a choice as .338 spectre or .500 Phantom / .510 whisper. But 9x19mm, .45 acp ARE bad choices for this application (shooting accurate to 200 yards), due to the horrid BCs. Look at the links from my post on page 1 to get started, or PM me. .338 spectre is where it's at for me personally, as the best balance of performance and reasonable price to get into. Relative to a .50 cal can, a 9mm can is a mere pittance. But again, if budget is unlimited, you're not gonna beat the .500 Phantom / .510 whisper.

If your goal was to get a 5-10 inch group at 200, then .45 acp would be fine, but if you want to get under 4-5" groups realistically at 200 yards, then you've got to step up from a pistol caliber.

It should also be noted that you're talking about HUNTING with such a rig. Well, for hunting, you *definitely* want the higher sectional densities and weights of the calibers I mention: .300 whisper, .338 spectre, .500 phantom / .510 whisper.

So FORGET pistol calibers (unless you change your specifications).

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 6, 2009, 11:25 AM
Here, I'll repeat from page 1:


1) quietness
2) effectiveness on a live target
3) range

The .500 Phantom is unbeatable in that area:

http://www.feistyrooster.com/500phantom/index.html

But since .50 cal suppressors are VERY expensive, the .338 spectre is the next best thing, and reasonable to get into to with a 9mm suppressor:

http://www.reedsammo.com/Page4.html

.300 Whisper comes in 3rd place.

jlg
March 6, 2009, 11:37 AM
Dude, if you really want to accomplish your goal, go back and read what I wrote on page 1, and then re-read it again, and ignore anything to the contrary, or you're shooting yourself in the foot.


I've read your post several times and done some research on both the 500 Phantom and the 338 Spectre.

One of the biggest turn offs with them is that they haven't become as "main stream" as the Whisper. There's less info on them as a weapon and less reloading info. Since I do not currently reload I don't want to start out learning on a caliber that doesn't have a good wealth of knowledge available.

That being said, the 338 Spectre is VERY interesting. One of the sites you posted builds uppers for it for just over $800...not too bad considering I'll end up spending about 3 times that on optics and a can.

The sight mentioned that they sell loaded ammo for the 338 Spectre but I didn't see a price. Do you happen to know the cost of ammo for this platform...bot buying already loaded and approximate cost to load your own?

In my opinion the cost of ammo is a bigger determining factor than the price of the weapon. You only have to buy the firearm once...you'll be buying ammo for it for the rest of your life.

newdude
March 6, 2009, 11:37 AM
This is most intresting...

gvnwst
March 6, 2009, 11:39 AM
Dr. Tad. While what most of what you said is correct, ie, the .500 Phantom is best, the .338 spectre has pratically NO advantage over the .300 whind and drop wise, it only has more energy. The BC of the 300gr .338" SMK and the 240gr .308 SMK are almost the same. Also, even with a .5bc 300gr projo, you have only one INCH less drop at 200yd then a 240gr .7bc one. Now, the extra energy in nice! Main "problem" with the spectre is it uses different mags. While .223 masg can be used, they can only hold a limited number, while the .300 whisper in .223 mags holds full capacity.
:)
This is most intresting...yeah, subsonics are really fun to play with:D

Zak Smith
March 6, 2009, 01:01 PM
The .500 phantom / .510 whisper uses bullet with BCs head and shoulders above (much much MUCH better) than any other subsonic round. That's the way to go if you're SERIOUS about it
While this is true, the difference in ballistics for subsonic rounds (for rifle calibers) is pretty minimal:

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 | YARDS
.30 150 0.400 1100 > -0.00 0.00 4.64 11.23 18.48 26.11 34.05 | drop (moa)
.30 240SMK 0.71* 1100 > -0.00 0.00 4.50 10.85 17.76 24.99 32.42 | drop (moa)
.30 300SMK 0.77* 1100 > -0.00 0.00 4.48 10.80 17.68 24.85 32.22 | drop (moa)
.50 750 AMAX 1.080 1100 > -0.00 0.00 4.42 10.65 17.39 24.39 31.57 | drop (moa)

.30 150 0.400 1100 > 0.00 0.31 1.22 2.70 4.70 7.23 10.24 | wind (inches)
.30 240SMK 0.71* 1100 > 0.00 0.18 0.73 1.62 2.84 4.38 6.24 | wind (inches)
.30 300SMK 0.77* 1100 > 0.00 0.17 0.67 1.48 2.60 4.02 5.73 | wind (inches)
.50 750 AMAX 1.080 1100 > 0.00 0.12 0.47 1.04 1.83 2.84 4.06 | wind (inches)


The difference at 200 yards between a vanilla 150-175gr .308 bullet (BC 0.4) and a .50 750gr AMAX (BC 1.08) is only just over one MOA (2") elevation. Comparing the 240gr SMK to the 750 AMAX at 200, the 240 doesn't even have twice the wind drift of the big bullet.

Ranb
March 6, 2009, 01:24 PM
A 45 cal pistol bullet with a BC of .145 has about 30% more drop and velocity change than a rifle bullet with a BC >.60.

Wasn't the 500 phantom discontinued due to inconsistant brass supply? I was interested in one for a semi-auto as the 510 whisper I shoot is only for bolt and silngle shot guns AFAIK

Ranb

Ranb
March 6, 2009, 01:27 PM
In my opinion the cost of ammo is a bigger determining factor than the price of the weapon. You only have to buy the firearm once...you'll be buying ammo for it for the rest of your life.

You got that right. I use surplus 50 bmg bullets in my 510 whisper instead of amax (>$2 each) and cast RN in the 300 and 338 instead of the expensive Sierra match bullets.

Ranb

taliv
March 6, 2009, 01:45 PM
my next suppressed project is using the 480ruger cartridge.

the advantages include:
heavy projectile (400g gold dot)
projectiles designed for terminal effectiveness at slow speeds (unlike most of the rifle projectiles that behave poorly under 2400+ fps)
short cartridge
i've already got bullets/brass/dies/etc :)

disadvantages:
it's rimmed
projectiles are flat tip and base, so don't have the long-range ballistics of typical rifle cartridges

Bigfoot
March 6, 2009, 03:40 PM
If anyone, anyone would make a high BC rifle bullet that expands when subsonic I'd switch to that cartridge. Too bad about those A-MAX bullets. What sense is higher energy on target when the bullet uses most of that energy on the dirt behind the target. Hoping that the bullet tumbles within the target isn't an option unless it does so reliably.

Now I'm hoping that someone here will show us some good terminal effects (that are reliable) from those rifle bullets because I love high BC bullets. At one time I put a custom bullet maker in touch with some 300 Whisper guys but he just couldn't make the bullets expand reliably. I was suggesting a tipped, heavily skived bullet with a very thin forward jacket. This was several years ago though so please update me.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 6, 2009, 04:55 PM
Well, if "mainstream" is a major factor (didn't realize that), then .300 whisper (aka .300 fireball) is the way to go, espec. since Zak clarified the minimal practical difference. :)

Dr. Tad. While what most of what you said is correct, ie, the .500 Phantom is best, the .338 spectre has pratically NO advantage over the .300 whind and drop wise, it only has more energy. The BC of the 300gr .338" SMK and the 240gr .308 SMK are almost the same. Also, even with a .5bc 300gr projo, you have only one INCH less drop at 200yd then a 240gr .7bc one. Now, the extra energy in nice! Main "problem" with the spectre is it uses different mags. While .223 masg can be used, they can only hold a limited number, while the .300 whisper in .223 mags holds full capacity.

Alright, points taken, BUT wouldn't it still be the case that a 9mm pistol suppressor can be had cheaper than a .30 cal suppressor for .300 whisper? I suppose you COULD use a 9mm suppressor for .300 whisper, but seems to me it wouldn't work *quite* as well as with a .338 bullet - there would be .056" diameter of extra space upon exit with .300 whisper, rather than .018" extra space, which is more than a 200% increase in extra diameter (& area) where gas can escape. Does anyone make a cheap but effective "pistol" can, specifically designed for the .300 whisper? I'm trying to get into a suppressor here without breaking the bank.

On the mags, I see your point, but I personally consider that a non-issue, as I'm going to build a single shot turnbolt or repeater turnbolt. But with a semi-auto platform, sure, the whisper is tried and true, and uppers are cheap.

But I think we all agree that pistols cals should be ruled out, for this gentleman's goals.

Bigfoot
March 8, 2009, 02:07 PM
From JLG
Wouldn't a 230gr 45ACP Hydroshock be pretty close to equal to a 220gr SMK loaded backwards? And I would think that since the Hydroshock is designed to expand at subsonic velocities that you would get more "kill" power from it than a backwards flying SMK.


From me.
If anyone, anyone would make a high BC rifle bullet that expands when subsonic I'd switch to that cartridge. Too bad about those A-MAX bullets. What sense is higher energy on target when the bullet uses most of that energy on the dirt behind the target. Hoping that the bullet tumbles within the target isn't an option unless it does so reliably.

Now I'm hoping that someone here will show us some good terminal effects (that are reliable) from those rifle bullets because I love high BC bullets. At one time I put a custom bullet maker in touch with some 300 Whisper guys but he just couldn't make the bullets expand reliably. I was suggesting a tipped, heavily skived bullet with a very thin forward jacket. This was several years ago though so please update me.

Both posts went unanswered. Would I be correct in assuming that the pistol bullet/cartridge shooters are interested in thumping live targets and the rifle bullet based guys are interested in shooting paper targets?

Ranb
March 8, 2009, 03:04 PM
I am not interested in using pistols cartridges/bullets on live targets. I do have round nose bullets for my subsonic rifle cartridges that are suitable for hunting, though I have yet to use them on game.

Ranb

Zak Smith
March 8, 2009, 06:34 PM
A long 240 or 300gr SMK is going to do a lot of damage to anything it hits. It's going to go end over end rather quickly. One of my shooting buddies has killed many hogs with 240grs out of a 300 Whisper.

skinewmexico
March 9, 2009, 12:56 AM
I want a 300 Whisper to shoot hogs. Actually, I want a 300/221, so brass and dies are cheap.

Zak Smith
March 9, 2009, 01:01 AM
My 300 is actually a Fireball. ;)

Kind of Blued
March 9, 2009, 04:31 AM
After doing some research, the .300-221 is starting to look REALLY appealing, mainly just because it isn't that expensive to get into if you already have ARs, mags, and reloading equipment. The same could be said for the .338 Spectre, although brass availability is a bit of a pain, as well as the lack of bolt and magazine interchangability. With the .300, we're talking about energy levels at or below those posted by cartridges like 7.62x39 or 30-30, so I'm starting to wonder if a short-barreled AR (~10") with a suppressor would be damn near ideal for HD, and a 16-20" upper for small or medium-sized game. I guess the matter in the first scenario is if bullet destabilization or tumbling is conducive to overpenetration in a home defense scenario. I'd imagine that with a ~10" barrel, one could get subsonic loads using even lighter bullets.

Does anybody have an educated opinion on the practicality of such a setup? I have more time with an AR than any other firearm and would like one for HD, but the .300 seems more effective than a 9mm, as well as not needing new mags and other parts, while still being useful on animals and at longer ranges.

My 300 is actually a Fireball.

Are you just saying that your upper wasn't made by the company that holds the trademark to the "Whisper" name? Or is there a difference between the .300/221 and the Fireball that I haven't figured out?

Also, do you use .223 brass when loading for yours?

Bigfoot
March 9, 2009, 08:12 AM
Kind of Blued, before you make the jump it might be a good idea to ask the fellas at the 300 Whisper forum http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=27 how often their bullets tumble and how often they stay stable and just pencil through doing very little damage.

There might be some good news for the 300 Whisper though, while there I saw that the expanding bullet project that I mentioned earlier is back on. The guy that bought Wildcat Custom bullets is promising to produce them.

I'm for any cartridge that works. Tumbling, expansion, I don't care as long as it's reliable.

Zak Smith
March 9, 2009, 11:55 AM
so I'm starting to wonder if a short-barreled AR (~10") with a suppressor would be damn near ideal for HD, and a 16-20" upper for small or medium-sized game.
You mean like this?
http://demigodllc.com/photo/300Fireball/smaller/D462_5771_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/photo/300Fireball/?small=D462_5771_img.jpg)
............... Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/300Fireball/?small=D462_5771_img.jpg)

http://demigodllc.com/photo/300Fireball/smaller/D462_5791_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/photo/300Fireball/?small=D462_5791_img.jpg)
............... Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/300Fireball/?small=D462_5791_img.jpg)

No point in having a second 16-20" barrel. It would be useless for subsonic loads and there's not enough powder capacity in the .300FB to take advantage of it anyway. From the 10.5", I can shoot the 150gr hunting bullets at 1850+, and the 125's at 2100+.


Are you just saying that your upper wasn't made by the company that holds the trademark to the "Whisper" name? Or is there a difference between the .300/221 and the Fireball that I haven't figured out?

Also, do you use .223 brass when loading for yours?
It's a Noveske barrel. I think there are some differences in Whisper/Fireball dimensions that I haven't really paid attention to, but bottom line, I am using cut down 5.56 brass and it works great. It is, however, a little louder than a subsonic caliber shot from a bolt gun.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 9, 2009, 12:35 PM
Both posts went unanswered. Would I be correct in assuming that the pistol bullet/cartridge shooters are interested in thumping live targets and the rifle bullet based guys are interested in shooting paper targets?

No, not at all! You have to HIT your intended target - and that's the vital zone on your game, so the increased practical accuracy that comes from the higher BC bullets is the REASON that a *hunter* would choose them every time over a pistol bullet. It's about ACCURACY, whether hunting or not. Only thing worse than missing game is wounding game, and those are the two things that happen from poor accuracy.

But having said that, now I'll try to answer your specific questions, from my perspective:

Wouldn't a 230gr 45ACP Hydroshock be pretty close to equal to a 220gr SMK loaded backwards? And I would think that since the Hydroshock is designed to expand at subsonic velocities that you would get more "kill" power from it than a backwards flying SMK.

NO! The "killing" power is from wound channel volume. The wound channel volume is based on diameter of permanent and temporary cavity and *penetration*. The .45 acp bullets have terrible SDs & penetration, *among* bullets used on game animals, which can be large, tough, heavy animals. The .45 acp is a bad choice for hunting deer (and larger) and *any* range, and a reallly really really horrible choice at 200 yards, per the original criteria, as amended. Just not enough penetration capability.

Sorry, no time to go to second question right now...

Kind of Blued
March 9, 2009, 01:37 PM
You mean like this?

Bingo!

Do you get a little less gas-in-the-face or are pressures about the same as .223? Looks like you have a gasbuster anyway.

I'll be checkin' out the 300W forum. This looks like fun, and one could get a heck of a lot more utility out of something like that than a 9mm AR.

Have you looked into the 6.5mm Whisper? I know you're a fan of those high BC 6.5s.

Koos Custodiet
March 9, 2009, 01:54 PM
I cast round nose bullets for the 458 socom, 510/338/300 whispers. They are a bit less accurate than jacketed bullets, but much cheaper.

Which mold are you using? I have a 300W TC I use for silhouettes, and I want to mess around with subsonics a bit.

Thanks

Gewehr98
March 9, 2009, 02:29 PM
The three variables I'm trying to weigh are...
1) quietness
2) effectiveness on a live target
3) range

.45-70, 535-550gr cast or swaged bullet, case full of BP or a Trapdoor smokeless load.

Works fine for me out to the 1000 yards on silhouette, and does quite a number on the 400 yard whitetails.

Bigfoot
March 9, 2009, 07:37 PM
.45-70, 535-550gr cast or swaged bullet, case full of BP or a Trapdoor smokeless load.

Works fine for me out to the 1000 yards on silhouette, and does quite a number on the 400 yard whitetails.

+1 Talking my language. :)

Gewehr98 is using cast bullets, that's something I'd forgot to mention about the Taurus Thunderbolt pump that I'll be using, no gas port to clog up. With my long 26" barrel I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to get a cast bullet like Lymans .45 cal 385 or 405 gr to just subsonic velocity. Even the lower BC 385 gr bullet is only down 4" at 200 yards to the 240 gr .308 SMK. Nice thing about cast bullets is the hardness can be from non-expanding for large game to very soft pure lead and the nose can even be drilled with a hollowpoint tool if even more expansion is wanted for coyotes etc.

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