Bottom Line on the EAA Witness 10mm?


PDA






zebco
March 3, 2009, 05:21 AM
Even though I've never fired a 10mm, I am intrigued with this round, and would like to purchase a 10mm and am considering the EAA Witness line. I've read so much on the various gun forums it's making me dizzy. I'm hoping I can get "bottom line" answers about the Witness line.

I'm seeing it is wise to stay away from the entry-level line, due to slide failures/cracking? How can one tell the difference between the older slide and the newer "rounded" slide?

Would there be the same problems with the Elite Stock or Match? Would this line be the one to go with?

If so, would you still need to replace any springs? And if yes, where do you get the springs?

Holsters for the Elite line?

Thanks so much for any help you can provide. I'm anxious about trying out the 10mm round.

If you enjoyed reading about "Bottom Line on the EAA Witness 10mm?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Grayrider
March 3, 2009, 09:38 AM
I have had an Elite Match and currently have an Elite Limited in 10mm. The Elite series Tanfoglios seem better made to me than the base guns. I assume they have not changed to the rounded top slides like the current base models. Be prepared for some tweaking. Some Elites will have feeding issues, but in my experience that primarily applies to the short cartridges (9mm and 40) feeding from the longer large frame mags. My smith had no trouble getting my guns to run 100%. Neither 10mm Elite gave me any problems.

They are big guns, so not too practical for carry. I would do a Stock if you want that. I had a 40 Stock because I could not find a 10mm at the time. I would still love to have a 10mm one.

They are very, very accurate. I can easily tear a ragged hole maybe an inch around at 15m in fairly rapid fire with the entire 15 rounds from a 10mm Match or Limited. Double taps with the Limited often end up within an inch or two of each other if I am driving her well. It is pretty much the ultimate 10mm pistol, save for perhaps an STI. Very soft shooting. The lighter 10mm loads in my Limited are not as harsh as similar 40 loads. 10mm is lower pressure than the 40 when running about the same loads. My typical target load has been a 165 at around 1200 fps. Mild for a 10mm, soft shooting, but it would be harsh in a 40.

I think if you are prepared for a little tweaking you will be happy. Get the Stock over the Match IMHO. I have seen some Matches lately that looked like they had the same round top slide as the standard. The Stock is more of a custom gun really.

John

floydster
March 3, 2009, 01:15 PM
I don't have 10mm but I do have a 38 Super and a 45 ACP., both are the Witness Elite Match pistols and both have run 100% out of the box, no tweakng what so ever and very accurate.:)

nalioth
March 3, 2009, 01:52 PM
Please keep in mind that anything you read on the internet actually represent less than 1% of the actual userbase for anything.

Think about this, before you put too much import in forum chatter.

sqlbullet
March 3, 2009, 03:31 PM
Since it appears you copied and pasted your question from 10mmtalk, I will do the same with my response:D

I currently own two 10mm Witness guns. A standard Wonder finish, and an Elite Match. Both are fine weapons. I have a friend who also has a standard Wonder finish in 10mm, and his is a solid performer as well.

Currently, I have offered my standard finish gun to a couple of friends for sale. My intention is to buy another Elite Match.

Let me back up.

Initially, I intended to buy an Elite Match. There were none available in my local market at the time. I solicited several local shops to order one for me. After a 3 month wait, with no gun even on the horizon, a local shop had the standard Wonder finish 10mm in stock. I took the plunge.

Several months later I saw an Elite Match on gunbroker, and purchased it. The intention was for my standard Witness to become my wife's range gun, and the Elite Match to become my primary weapon. The plan sounded good.

Then my wife asked to shoot the Elite Match one day at the range. I probably haven't put 100 rounds through it since. She marked her territory and demanded an ambi safety on my Match (she shoots lefty).

As much as I like the Witness, I love the Elite Match. I am tempted by the new Fortis, and may end up with one as well.

My guns both have 22lb wolff recoil springs, and plus 10/15 mag springs. The base pads of the extra mags I ordered had to be sanded. I have polished the trigger parts including the sear of the standard gun, and polished the feed ramps on both guns.

Beagle-zebub
March 3, 2009, 04:09 PM
Someone should mention EAA's fabulous customer-service department. :D

sqlbullet
March 3, 2009, 04:52 PM
I can't speak to it. Saturno_v will likely chime in. He had a terrible experience and is permanently turned off to EAA products a a result. I have heard other stories, though few as bad as his. I have also heard one good report related to a cracked slide.

EAA's reputation is poor in the CS department.

Casefull
March 3, 2009, 06:16 PM
I love my witness match 10mm. I have a compact ordered in 10mm.

steve4102
March 3, 2009, 06:24 PM
My 10MM Witness trouble/
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=432361

zebco
March 4, 2009, 12:48 AM
Thanks everyone for the replies. I checked out a Match in a .40 today and compared it to the base model. Different slides. On the base, definitely more rounded. Still unsure about this though. I want to be able to shoot the heavier stuff without worry of some sort of structural failure. If not, then what's the point? I cannot warm up to a Glock in any caliber (I'm sure they're great guns, not for me though) and I will not spend the money right now on one of the 1911 versions. So that leaves my options quite limited.

MachIVshooter
March 4, 2009, 09:17 AM
I want to be able to shoot the heavier stuff without worry of some sort of structural failure.

I run sledgehammer loads (180 gr. @ 1,400) through both of mine with no problems.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/Witness.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/WitnessLimited10mm.jpg

Grayrider
March 4, 2009, 09:53 AM
Ahh there she is, the 10mm Limited. I have to get on my Dillon and crank out some more ammo. It has been too long since I had mine at the range! Thanks for motivating me MachIVShooter!

Also, please tell us about the first one you posted. The different frame has me curious about its origin.

John

KBintheSLC
March 4, 2009, 06:19 PM
I seriously considered the Witness during my search for a 10mm, but I got turned off to it when I read that the frames are cast, not milled from billets. They are beautiful guns, but I ended up buying a Glock 20 instead. It is not as cool to look at as the EAA, but it is all business and I feel more confident that it will handle the punishment of the 10mm cartridge for a longer time.
I have never heard of the cast metal frames of the EAA actually causing any problems, but being a guy that used to work in metallurgical fabrication, I avoid them.

roscoe
March 4, 2009, 06:52 PM
It is not the frames that fail, but the slides. I won't buy a gun I can't trust - even though I am a huge fan of the CZ and 10mm. Breaks my heart, but there it is.

atblis
March 4, 2009, 07:17 PM
You realize Glock frames are cast too? Right?

Casefull
March 4, 2009, 07:25 PM
It is interesting that you mention the frames. I shoot a Glock 20 and the tiny steel tangs that are mounted to the plastic frame are all that holds the slide in place...this has to be a weak area for the glock as compared to steel framed guns with full length contact. That is one reason I use a heavier spring in my glock as I do not want the slide flying back in my face with one of those 1400 plus 180g loads. Check your Glocks frame rails and see how they wiggle back and forth. I know they work but sure is suspect.

atblis
March 4, 2009, 07:56 PM
The frame is just along for the ride.

zebco
March 5, 2009, 07:38 PM
I talked to my dealer today about the availability of 10mm guns. He can get me an EAA with the "wonder" finish now, and the picture he showed me online looked the more squared version. He cannot get me a Match or Stock right now. He can get me a Glock 20 by Monday at the latest. I picked up a Glock 37, which I believe is similiar in size, and I had a hard time warming up to it. But it is in my price range. So unless I am willing to wait for the Match or Stock, it's either the "wonder" finish or the Glock 20 if I want it now.

Some of the employees of the store would ask why I would even consider a 10mm. I tried to explain my reasoning for it, but they didn't seem to get it. And one guy, and a customer that overheard, both said how horrible it is to shoot this round. Perhaps I'm not understanding things enough, but I have a hard time believing this round is that much more difficult to shoot than 180gr .357s that I've shot in the past, or a 44mag out of a 4 inch barrel. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

longhorngunman
March 5, 2009, 10:36 PM
It aint' that harsh. Tell them to try a .454 Casull if they want harsh.:D If you want a Witness I'd hold out for the Match or Limited. I have a 10mm Match and it is one beautiful gun. Seems accurate but honestly I haven't shot it as much as I intend too. Also have a G20 great gun in it's own right and might be the best to start with. Do you reload? If your gonna shoot lot's of 10mm you better.

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 10:40 PM
Hiya Zeb,
Wait for a Match Elite --- seen them on Gunbroker for around $550 shipped. They are TWICE the gun that the regular Witness 10MMs are.
I own two Match Elites , one in .40S&W and the other in 9MM.--So I ordered a 4 & 3/4" LS barrel from EAA ---- I got a .38 Super that fit on my 9mm with no fitting required --- the 10MM brl. I got for the .40 needed about 5 min. with a flat file to get it to work on that frame.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC01537.jpg


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC01504.jpg



EDIT ---- the Witness on the left I had converted to double action so I could use it in stock/production action shooting. And the extra barrels are $120 from EAA

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 10:59 PM
Link to my range report;
http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=17338.0

zebco
March 5, 2009, 11:04 PM
Thanks guys, and thanks for taking the time to post these pictures.

Since my previous post from a couple of hours ago, I've done some reading on here and other sites about the Glock 20. I can't find too much negative about it, but if I do get that one, it's going to be the SF.

Now, this next question is a bit off topic, but why not since we're already discussing this round. What about ammo? What are the different grain ranges and the appropriate use for each? What about the heavy stuff from Double Tap? What would be best to use in the woods for animal defense? (ok, here goes that ever popular question: If you were in an area with black bears:D, what would you have loaded? No reloads, stuff I can buy.) Seriously, the reason for getting this is for a woods/trail gun.

The store near me actually has Hornady 180gr XTP(?) JHP for 14.99/box. Cheaper than what they're selling 9mm for right now. What is it good for?

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 11:14 PM
I have reloaded/shot everything from 155gr. at Mach God Awfull to 210gr. at a bit over 1000fps and everything in between.

The Horn. 180 XTP are a GREAT all around choice ---- they will take down mid/lrg. deer and I would not be afraid to use them on BLACK bear , if I had to.

I would chose over the Horn. , the heavy weight loads from Double Tap but would save them from when I WAS in the woods.

The horn. 180s give you a good blend of expansion and penetration. The heavy Double Tap will give more penetration and a little less expansion.

Gunfighter123
March 5, 2009, 11:18 PM
Zeb ---- If it was me , tomorrow I WOULD RUN to your local store and get at least 200 rds. of the Horn. 180s ----- that is a great price for high quality factory ammo.

zebco
March 6, 2009, 02:11 AM
Well, they only have 3 boxes left at that price, but yeah it would be a good idea to go ahead and grab them, even if I don't have the gun yet

There appear to be several to choose from on the Double Tap site. Which are the best for the woods?

And I saw at another store a 165 grain, but can't remember the brand, except it was one of the more familiar brands. So what would it be good for? Just personal defense?

MachIVshooter
March 6, 2009, 09:09 AM
Also, please tell us about the first one you posted. The different frame has me curious about its origin.

It's a standard compact model. I recurved the trigger guard by adding material with a MIG welder, and dehorned the front of the slide with a vertical mill. I also flattened and smoothed the safety, as it kept engaging in the holster; I carry hammer down, safety off, and the now minimal profile requires very deliberate action to safe the weapon.

The threaded holes on the dustcover are for a muzzle weight/psuedo-compensator I milled. I seldom use it, but it does work. I'll post a photo of it later.

KBintheSLC
March 6, 2009, 05:26 PM
You realize Glock frames are cast too? Right?
Uuh right... talk about apples and oranges... or even worse... steel and polymer. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I believe that casting is the only way to build a polymer frame. Unless they figured out how to forge and mill it.
The EAA frames are cast pot metal. Comparing that process to the casting of the polymer of a Glock frame is just plain humorous.

It is interesting that you mention the frames. I shoot a Glock 20 and the tiny steel tangs that are mounted to the plastic frame are all that holds the slide in place...this has to be a weak area for the glock as compared to steel framed guns with full length contact. That is one reason I use a heavier spring in my glock as I do not want the slide flying back in my face with one of those 1400 plus 180g loads. Check your Glocks frame rails and see how they wiggle back and forth. I know they work but sure is suspect.
I think you are confused... those little rails merely guide the slide. The recoil is absorbed by the barrel lug hitting the polymer frame in front/above the trigger group. The stock springs will handle all 10mm loadings. Your fear of the slide hitting you in the face is irrational and baseless. It just won't happen. Actually, the Glock 20 has been one of the most successful 10mm platforms around.

KBintheSLC
March 6, 2009, 05:39 PM
What about ammo? What are the different grain ranges and the appropriate use for each? What about the heavy stuff from Double Tap? What would be best to use in the woods for animal defense? (ok, here goes that ever popular question: If you were in an area with black bears, what would you have loaded? No reloads, stuff I can buy.) Seriously, the reason for getting this is for a woods/trail gun.

Doubletapammo.com

For the backwoods, the 200g FMJ-FP intermingled with the 200g Controlled Expansion JHP. Both are moving at 1250 fps, packing about 700 lbs of punch.
As a 10mm owner, you will get to know DoubleTap... I am sure of it.

zebco
March 6, 2009, 07:03 PM
Just wanted to thank everyone once again for their input. I know this thread started requesting information about the Witness line. I took the plunge today and ordered a Glock 20 SF. It will arrive Tuesday. I said to myself when I first started buying guns that I would never own a Glock. But it appears to be the most economical and reliable option in the 10mm for me right now. If I end up liking this round, I can always buy others.

longhorngunman
March 6, 2009, 10:08 PM
Congrats! You'll love that G20. Probably the best all around Glock. Later on if you want something with a little more pizzaz you can go after the Witness. +1 on the Doubletap, but go buy up all that Hornady ammo NOW at that price.

zebco
March 6, 2009, 11:09 PM
Thanks longhorngunman. I bought the 3 remaining boxes of the 180 Hornady. I visited another store and I helped them clear some space too. They had similar prices, basically stuff that's been sitting there at prices probably from a year or two ago. So I got a couple more boxes. I guess not too many 10mm shooters around here.

I just don't have the gun to shoot them yet.:(

If you enjoyed reading about "Bottom Line on the EAA Witness 10mm?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!