.45 ACP Question


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azhunter122
March 3, 2009, 07:46 PM
Hi,

I have decided to use my Kimber .45 (pro carry) as my home defense gun and was curious about a couple of things. First of all I absolutely cannot have my bullet exit my target becuase I have other family in the house. I am currently using 165 grain hydrashocks and want an opinion on those if possible. Also I have been looking at the winchester rangers (forgot the rest of their name) and saw that they come in +P. Is the +P a good thing for me and what are the pros and cons of it? What would be a good ammo choice for me? This gun will also be in the car as well.

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feudalson
March 3, 2009, 07:50 PM
+ps are higher pressure rds.. that means more speed which in alotta cases means more penatration.. if i was you i would buy what rd is randed higest for expansion in the hollowpoint market... more expansions means less penatration and usaully if there is full penatration there arent full size bullets flying into the other rooms of ur house

azhunter122
March 3, 2009, 07:58 PM
Exactly, what brands are matching the description above?

SwampWolf
March 3, 2009, 08:10 PM
First of all I absolutely cannot have my bullet exit my target becuase I have other family in the house.

Unfortunately, there are no "absolutes" when it comes to bullet performance and predictable ballistics for projectiles fired into living and clothed human flesh and bone. Though pricey, I would suggest using Glaser "Blue" ammunition (which uses #12 shot compressed into a nearly solid but "prefragmented" form) if you want to keep penetration to a minimum. But even using this stuff you have to accept the fact that there is simply no guarantee-just a calculated playing of the odds.

azhunter122
March 3, 2009, 08:15 PM
Does the glaser ammo have good stopping power?

oneounceload
March 3, 2009, 08:27 PM
Any of the good defense HP's should work, but in reality, a 12 gauge would probably be a better choice to consider for your non-penetrating issues

MICHAEL T
March 4, 2009, 01:51 AM
Does the glaser ammo have good stopping power?

no pistol has good stopping power
Glassers have low penteration. More shots miss than hit in a SD (last police results I saw were 20% hit)shooting so really doesn't matter if goes thru BG does it

rduckwor
March 4, 2009, 09:23 AM
Any of the good defense HP's should work, but in reality, a 12 gauge would probably be a better choice to consider for your non-penetrating issues

+1

Absolutely consider a shottie with birdshot. You aren't likely to over penetrate and at reasonably close in-house range, it will stop the threat. It will make a huge mess of the threat's parts though. Lots of clean up to follow.

earlthegoat2
March 4, 2009, 09:30 AM
Please dont use birdshot in your defense shotgun either.

If you want to stop a perp you run the risk of shooting through walls too. It is the nature of it and there is no getting around it. Let me clarify.

The ammo and or gun you use to stop a fight must be able to penetrate the walls of your house otherwise it will be ineffective on the BG.

Now if you think your going to hit the BG 100% of the time by all means use a 45 with any decent hollow point or the Glaser Safety slugs. A shotgun would be a fine option as well. Just remember if you miss the projectiles are going to go through the walls.

Ken Rainey
March 5, 2009, 03:37 AM
Well, I just don't know about those 165 Hydrashoks...and the Glaser bullets may sound like a good idea but I've read, and it made sense, that they had tended to underpenetrate which could be worse than an overpenetrating round..???...and they're pretty expensive to be able to run enough thru your pistol to check for reliable function, which I've also read could be iffy..?? I'd avoid +P ammo due to it having more blast and kick and with no provable benefit in results...

The standard 230 .45 FMJ is not an overpenetrating round contrary to popular belief. The .45 acp is a slow moving bullet and that does not aid expansion so getting an expanded .45 hollowpoint should be considered a bonus and not the norm (as it should be with most handgun ammo)...I don't care what the advertisments say or what it does in gelatin, although that is a fair baseline medium to use for comparative purposes. The .45 acp goes slower with barrel lengths less than 5 inches, I believe your pistol has a 4 inch barrel...on the other hand, the slower moving .45 will have even less tendency to overpenetrate and using a hollowpoint style bullet even if it doesn't expand should still tend to slow it down even further by it's frontal design....therefore, it would seem to be a toss up as to using a 230 slower bullet or a faster 185 that looses it's momentum quicker upon hitting something?? A standard pressure 185 or 230 grain hollowpoint should penetrate as less as you can get and still (in my opinion) have a good opportunity to penetrate deep enough to get the job done, the 165 HydraShok may do just as well, I don't know and I am leary of it just because of it's unusual weight...remember that 1911 designed pistols are primarily designed to run on 230 weight bullets and FMJ at that, even tho most today run HP ammo as good or even sometimes better than FMJ - each pistol is a machine unto itself. Does it function 100% with the 165s even if fired weak handed with a less than perfect grip?? That's one of the reasons for suggesting a standard 185 grain as an alternative, they've been around a long time and have a good record of reliable function. I recommend you pick your ammo based on reliable function and accuracy, then whatever bullet weight it is, it'll still be a .45 and should get the job done if applied sufficiently.

My short stroker runs fine on the Winchester 185 SilverTips and I'd be inclined to think that the Remington Golden Saber in 185 should as well but whatever you think might work needs to be function tested to be sure. Solid hits are what is needed and with solid hits even a 230 FMJ is not overpenetrative - especially a slower moving one. I use standard 230 FMJ in my Kimber short stroker (Ultra Eclipse) due in part to an even shorter barrel than yours so that it will hopefully have adequate penetration...it functions, it's accurate and it's what I practice with (other than my reloaded 230 LRN) and it cost less too...;)

moooose102
March 5, 2009, 08:30 AM
one thing you shoud do, is test your ammo for muzzle flash. go somewhere near dark and shoot to see how much mf you get from each round. you will be suprised!

Ken Rainey
March 5, 2009, 12:40 PM
Yep, moooose102 you're right, forgot to mention that myself....I tried some 185 Gold Dots in my short stroker and noted some flash in the daylight of a partly cloudy day and a surprising blast and kick as well...nope, not the +Ps either...a couple of years ago I was told by a Kimber rep that they didn't recommend Gold Dots or Corbons for use in their pistols...they recommended Golden Sabers and Hydra Shoks and said that SXTs were good....the rep carried 230 FMJ in their Ultra Eclipse. The flash retarded powders used in LE type ammo is a plus to consider but more so in the 9s and 40s as the standard .45 isn't as bad to start with....but, each manufacturer is different and the shorter the barrel the more powder flash that will be seen....

sophijo
March 5, 2009, 12:52 PM
If you have never been in a high stress firearm situation you will be amazed at how difficult it can be to think and act "straight". I believe that's why a shotgun is often recommended in HD situations........ easier to make a point! BTW "shot" will penetrate a wall too.

Dan Crocker
March 5, 2009, 02:16 PM
Glasers may not cycle the action on your 1911. I tried some on my Colt and they weren't doing the trick. I ended up going with the Remington Golden Saber 230 gr.

Mainsail
March 5, 2009, 02:28 PM
Hydrashock is OLD technology, get some Rangers, or better yet, some Federal HSTs. One test I read some time ago had the standard HST performing better than the +P HSTs.

rduckwor
March 5, 2009, 04:30 PM
Please dont use birdshot in your defense shotgun either.


Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you here. A 2 3/4 12 GA loaded with #6 WILL absolutely give any BG pause. It may not drop him DRT, but if this guy is truly worried about over penetration, I think smaller pellets are the answer rather than 45 slugs or 00 buck. Less #6 will penetrate two or more layers of dry wall should the worst happen and what might get thru is going to have very little energy.

RMD

Just One Shot
March 5, 2009, 05:13 PM
If you are worried about over penetration I suggest you go out and by a shotgun for home defense.

janobles14
March 5, 2009, 05:16 PM
standard pressure speer gold dots are a fine choice and with their aggressive expansion shouldnt over penetrate

oldFred
March 5, 2009, 05:27 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=925549


You need this Gold Dot HP and the NON/+P ammo...



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If you are critical about NOT penetrating loved ones' rooms, get the Frangible like

http://personalsecurityzone.com/images/GSS04800lg.jpg
http://www.dakotaammo.net/art/063.gif
or

Extreme Shock

http://www.concealedcarryoutfitters.com/Air%20Freedom%20Round.jpg

This remarkable round is the terrorists worst nightmare. Under most circumstances, the AFR (Air Freedom Round) will not penetrate the skin of conventional aircraft, causing a decompression. It is also designed to not penetrate the aluminum backs of most airline seats, reducing potential collateral damage in the event of a shootout at 30,000 feet. Unlike rounds made of polymers that can generate lethal ricochet, the Extreme Shock AFR round will turn to harmless powder if it misses its intended target and hits a hard surface. It is the only round in the world with this level of performance and safety. This is also possibly the world's safest home defense round, as in most circumstances, it will fragment in standard 1 half-inch sheet rock wallboard. This bullet runs at plus-P type pressures, and should be used only in firearms of good construction and good working order.

PS. I just figured out how to add images to my messages. Wow this is cool. ;)

CWL
March 5, 2009, 05:55 PM
Welcome to THR oldFred!

I would advise you to not bother with the Glaser rounds because of cost and unreliable penetration.

Stay completely away from Extreme Shock. Pure ninja crap.

There is no such thing as a 'Magic Bullet'. The best you can do is buy a lot of ammo from a reliable company (Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Federal, etc.) and shoot them constantly to keep in practice.
Having a blister pack of $5-ea bullets does nothing to contribute to SD/HD readiness and accurate aim.

richyoung
March 5, 2009, 06:04 PM
rduckwor Quote:
Please dont use birdshot in your defense shotgun either.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you here. A 2 3/4 12 GA loaded with #6 WILL absolutely give any BG pause. It may not drop him DRT, but if this guy is truly worried about over penetration, I think smaller pellets are the answer rather than 45 slugs or 00 buck. Less #6 will penetrate two or more layers of dry wall should the worst happen and what might get thru is going to have very little energy.

RMD

1. If you don't need him to "DRT" you shouldn/t be shooting at all.
2. At inside-house distances, a shotgun still has to be aimed. Your pattern, IF you get a pattern, (see point 3 below...) is gonna be the size of a half-dollar.
3. If you aren't far enough away from the target for shot to leave the shot cup, it's going to act very similar to a slug on anything it hits, - BG, wall, children, etc.

chris in va
March 5, 2009, 06:27 PM
Absolutely consider a shottie with birdshot

Just don't let the DA know you had it in the shotgun for HD purposes. 'Shoot to wound' and all that jazz. No personal experience with that issue though, just what I heard on the internets.

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