Shot two 1911's the other day, don't love it


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hadmanysons
March 4, 2009, 01:59 AM
My buddy just got his Les Bear Thunder Ranch 1911 in and we went to the range to brake it in. He put 200 rounds through, 16 of which I shot, and his friend who joined let me shoot about 16 rounds through his Springfield 1911. Wasn't that impressed. I don't like the fact that the Les Bear needed a tool to take it apart. The mag's would also catch on something in both guns and I had to wiggle them to 'em in. I've also shot other .45's before and none has made my hands hurt like these two did. And as I understand it they have to be "cocked and locked" if your going to CCW with them. They were however both pretty accurate, the Les Bear of course being the best accuracy I've ever seen out of a handgun.

I guess I'm just looking for the 1911 nuts to fill me pro's to my fruitful list of con's or at least tell me where I was wrong.

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RippinSVT
March 4, 2009, 02:39 AM
Before everyone here jumps on you for not LOVING the 1911...I do don't care much for them either. Frankly, I thinking the slender and tall grip is awkward on 1911's and much prefer the grip width of a doublestack gun. Additionally, I don't think you should have to spend $1200 just to have a one optioned-out to perform where a $500 stock (insert Sig, Glock, etc here) performs right out of the box. Do I think they are cool guns? Yes. Do I think they served our military well for over half a century? Yes. Do I think every article in every gun magazine should be drooling over the same old thing? No.

The fact is, nearly 100 years have passed since the 1911's inception, and some people can't cope with the fact that newer and better advances in technology have come along. I shoot 1911's, a Kimber Eclipse and a Para P14, but they aren't my favorites by any stretch of the imagination. John Moses Browning, if he was still living, would probably look at us all right now and say, "Jesus guys, I designed that thing to be good in it's time, move on already, there are better options out there!"


Before I am burned at the stake, I would like to say that I do LIKE 1911's, I just don't LOVE them. They are a fine design, but I think they are over-glorified a bit too much. Kimber comes out with a trendy new milled hammer and it gets everybody excited, but another manufacturer designs a revolutionary awesome new design, and it gets a shrug.

TRGRHPY
March 4, 2009, 02:45 AM
Good luck in trying to find an honest assessment from 1911 owners.

The more I get involved with 1911's and talking with other people about them, the more I find out how unreliable they really are. Hi-points are horribly ugly and the fit and finish is for s**t, but I'd be willing to bet that they have a better reliability record than a 1911. I like 1911's a lot, but when I compare them to other designs I just don't feel that I can trust them as a carry weapon (wouldn't carry a hi-point either). They're like the Harley Davidson of the gun world. An icon that feels good and can be great to look at but you'd better have a backup (chase vehicle) if you use it.:neener:

BTW, my comments are made in fun and jest, so relax and feel free to blast away at glocks or lcp's or whatever makes you feel better, just back off the hi-points or else...

redbandit98
March 4, 2009, 03:12 AM
Well, Im a 1911 guy. Actually, I cant even really say that becuase I dont have enough experience to "qualify" as one. I will say that I love the way the guns shoot and feel. That meaning the way they fit my hand, the way they aim, and above all the fact that I can own several different ones and all use the same mags and holsters. I will say that I carry an xd in 45. My primary carry used to be a kimber pro eclipse. Yes, I had problems with it feeding. I tied it down to bad magazines. Yes, I know, its pathetic a 1100 gun doesnt come with reliable mags. After buying some quality mags and keeping the thing super lubed, it runs great. I have buddies who have 1911's that have never had a ftf (or one they would admit too). There is nothing saying you have to love a 1911. I love them but they are just tools. Use what you like and what you would trust your life with. Would I trust my life with my 1911, yes I would. Since over coming my initial problems I feel confident in it. Do I feel better with my xd45 that has NEVER once failed in any way...yes i do and thats why i carry it.

theken206
March 4, 2009, 03:26 AM
you wouldnt happen to be a communist would you HMS?? :p


"Before I am burned at the stake, I would like to say that I do LIKE 1911's, I just don't LOVE them."

and I just got out my can of gas darn it

BHP FAN
March 4, 2009, 03:39 AM
Some folks get it,and some never will. Personally, I think the 1911 is the 2nd best handgun ever designed.YMMV.

CWL
March 4, 2009, 04:17 AM
If you don't like it, that's your opinion.

I'm a M1911 guy, but that's just me.

No need to try and force anyone to like something. Plenty of guns available for everyone.

2nd 41
March 4, 2009, 07:53 AM
I have 3 quality 1911's. I'd buy a 4th & 5th if money allowed. These pistols are a pleasure to shoot. I enjoy cleaning them. 1911's are in a league of their own.
Mine are strictly for the range.

tbtrout
March 4, 2009, 08:09 AM
Shoot what is confortable to shoot. If you do not like them then you do not like them. That will leave more in the supply chain for me.

rduckwor
March 4, 2009, 08:15 AM
Nothing wrong with not liking a 1911. You can't please everyone with one gun, that's why so many different ones are made.

It may be that your hands just don't work on a 1911 or maybe your grip was off. Or truly, maybe it just isn't the gun for you.

I'll hang onto mine and you can buy the double stacks that I don't want.

RMD

Jim PHL
March 4, 2009, 08:20 AM
For every "best" design, there are those who will think it the worst. As strong of a history as Glocks and Sigs have had, there are those who won't ever own or even shoot one for some reason or another. People out there who swear by their Hi-points and those who would never be bothered with them. There are actually people who carry j-frame snubs for personal protection! Do you believe there are people out there who choose to protect their home and loved ones with less than a .500 magnum?! 1911 vs. other platforms is not that different than a caliber war. There are always at least two sides to every story, usually more.

benderx4
March 4, 2009, 08:29 AM
Nothing I enjoy more to shoot at the range than my 1911s. As for the design, getting old? Old doesn't necessarily mean bad. Ask any guy who drives a Porsche 911 - although the basic rear-engine design has been tweaked now for over 45 years, it's still the same design as the original at heart.

Such is the case with the 1911 (wow, almost the same numbers), the engineering and materials have been tweaked for the better, but the basic design lives on ........

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3569/3305088230_28858b1026.jpg?v=0

Disclaimer: I carry a Seecamp (summer) and P7M8 (winter).

Evenflo76
March 4, 2009, 08:30 AM
What I have gathered from my 1911 journey is that too many modern, new to the game 1911 manufacturers have taken the design and screwed it up.

Thinking that all their little tweaks, tighter tolerances, fully throated ramps etc.... are going to make JMB's design better.

Take an A1 type 1911 ( that costs way under $1000 ) and run 230gr FMJ ( the round it was designed for ) and it will run all day long without issue.

My $0.02

earlthegoat2
March 4, 2009, 08:39 AM
I have always felt myself in the minority because my favorite 1911 happens to be those made by Para Ordinance. I think that they have taken the proper steps in improving it further than any other company. As well as the introduction of the LDA trigger and you have converted an old for the times 1911 into a more political friendly DAO automatic. I resisted the LDA for years and finally tried it and it is the real deal. It is not the end all be all of 1911 designs but it at least lends credibility to the bobbed hammer on a 1911. Kimbers bobbed hammer on the Aegis is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Think about it. The hammer is only spurless when it is down. When it is being carried cocked and locked like its supposed to be then the spurless hammer is back creating a spur.

Pistolnut
March 4, 2009, 08:49 AM
Hi,

Just wanted to put in my .02 cents worth of comment.

I have a few guns, Sigs, H&Ks,
1911s, Glocks, CZs and a few others.

I like them all. Do I have my favorites? Of course.

There are people out there that don,t like Glocks, or Sigs, or H&ks for what ever reason.

Almost all the time somebody comes out and says they don't like 1911s
people react as if it's the only gun people don't like.

Part of my point is that even some of those new Hi-Tech guns are not liked by many.

I must be in the very few. For me each gun has it's own character.
When I'm at the range I enjoy shooting all of them.

I guess that's why we live in a world of colors, choose what you like and leave the rest for others.;)

Floppy_D
March 4, 2009, 08:50 AM
When I first got into shooting, I never really liked the platform. I was a "Sig only" kinda guy. One day I got a wild hair and decided I needed a 1911. I got a Springfield GI, a very inexpensive, entry level type 1911. All I've done to it is paint the front sight (three coats of white, three coats of Hot Orange, man is it bright) and 1911Tuner's poor man's trigger job. My trigger is a crisp 4 lbs, and I shoot this 1911 better than any other gun I own.

I like the looks of the custom 1911s, but there's something neat about an old, bone stock GI model (that feeds 200g LSWCs flawlessly).

I still love Sigs, I guess I just finally got the 1911. If it's not for you, then enjoy the rest. :)

MMCSRET
March 4, 2009, 09:08 AM
It took me 30 years to learn to like a 1911. I used them off and on from 1962 until 1986 in the military, but never owned one until 1991 when I bought a Norinco. I used it and loaded for it and finally learned how well the 1911 really works, now I like them and have 2. That said, I still like revolvers better for all round use.

LoneCoon
March 4, 2009, 09:10 AM
I'm not a fan of .45's in general.

In fact, the only reason I have one is that it was given to me as a birthday present when I turned 21.

So it's okay not to love a 1911. Just so long as you have something you like to shoot, be it a High point or a Holland and Holland.

robctwo
March 4, 2009, 09:57 AM
Do not learn to like the 1911. It's like the guy who doesn't like alcohol deciding to develop a taste for single malt.

chupacabrah
March 4, 2009, 10:00 AM
I don't LOVE them, but I do LIKE them.

I don't own one yet, but hopefully I will soon. Although I'm still tempted to get an XD45, but the steel and wood just looks so much better!


so maybe I should just get a CZ97... :p

ArmedBear
March 4, 2009, 10:09 AM
The XD45 isn't the best-looking gun ever, but IMO it's a very user-friendly firearm.

The CZ97 is a wonderful .45, but it's a heavy beast. For the range, I think it's hard to beat it for anywhere near its price ballpark. It might not be the best CCW gun ever made...:D

The 1911s that really turn me on start way too far up in the price range for me to want to jump on the train...

They ARE a lot like single malt. After trying some really good Scotch, if you like it, you won't ever get excited about Bourbon again. And you'll want a bunch of Scotches, to compare their subtle (or not-so-subtle) differences in aroma. Some people don't understand why you'd pay $50 for a small bottle of whiskey that tastes like smoke, when you could get drunk for a few bucks.

After trying a custom 1911, I have no desire for a rattly 7-shooter that will do nothing an XD can't do better. I want a really nice one. Or a few...

But I'm too cheap.

Right now, I'd rather buy a house while we can get a fixed mortgage rate under 5%, and it's a serious buyer's market, than buy one handgun for the price of four -- even if it IS really, really nice.:)

MikePGS
March 4, 2009, 10:24 AM
I think they shoot wonderfully, but for a couple of hundred dollars less you can usually buy a lighter gun that holds more rounds. Sure the ergonomics aren't going to be as good, but for many people the trade off is worth it.

ArmedBear
March 4, 2009, 10:36 AM
I don't know. Basic 1911 ergonomics sure aren't the end-all, but they can be customized because you can put a lot of extra grip material on that skinny frame.

verdun59
March 4, 2009, 11:53 AM
I,m shocked and surprised that Trgrhpy actually told the truth about
Harley Davidsons and has not had the wrath of the universe come down on him. It's one thing to criticize 1911s but the sacred Harley....why it's unheard of...shocked,shocked,shocked....

HisSoldier
March 4, 2009, 12:13 PM
The fact is, nearly 100 years have passed since the 1911's inception, and some people can't cope with the fact that newer and better advances in technology have come along.

The real fact in what was said there is that you expressed an opinion not shared by everyone. What you call newer and better advances I call dishonest shortcuts in design and manufacture with inferior materials. Now, that's my opinion! :)

jerkface11
March 4, 2009, 12:27 PM
I can't stand them if they're .45acp. In other calibers they're great.

lgbloader
March 4, 2009, 12:28 PM
Call me a 1911 man, too. Kimber, springfield, and Para. My springfield's are all three a hoot to shoot and I really like the Para's double stack feel and LDA trigger. My Kimber's are also really great as well.

That said, my favorite handgun to shoot right now is my S&W 66. Follow that up with my other revolvers (another 357 Mag and a 44 mag) I got rid of a 460 Mag but I'll be replacing that soon.

I am just getting sick and tired of chasing all that brass and with a revolver, all you have to do is dump the spent casing in a Folgers can while you shoot. Once you fired off your ammo, just pack up and leave. No chasing brass, argueing with the guy next to you on who's brass is who's. Maybe I am just getting old, or lazy, or both.

LGB

qwert65
March 4, 2009, 12:33 PM
When I was first looking to get a semi-auto HG about 7 yrs ago I did a lot of research(not comprehensive, but a lot)
First I decided on caliber, based on stopping power and availibility I came down to 9mm, 40, and 45. I like big holes which eliminatec the 9 and I have a revolver that shoots acp, so that settled me on caliber.
Then I decided on a glock 21 my logic was 1 elite ppl seemed to like the 45 recon marines, delta, LAPD SWAT. LA K9 unit, FBI HRT,etc. and glocks seemed to hold lots of bullets(which I like) so the glock seemed like the best thing going.........Right up untill I held it and had the counter lady saying, "oh your hands are way too small for that grip" (not my finest hour) She told me I could go with the 40, or look at 1911s (the XD hadn't come out yet, or at least I didn't know about it) So I bought a Springer GI instead. I've fired at least a 1000rds thru it with no problem, and except for the sights and maybe the mag well I wouldn't change it at all. My freinds with glocks all shoot better with it then with their own guns, save one but he shoots his 40 a lot.

So to me the pros are ergonomics, trigger, and in my unscientific poll the 45 seems to recoil less in the 1911(heavier?), and reliabilty.
the con is capacity

lgbloader
March 4, 2009, 12:38 PM
the con is capacity

Qwert, Get a Para Hi cap double stack 1911. 14+1

LGB

David E
March 4, 2009, 12:42 PM
16 shots isn't a solid enough foundation to make any long term assessments.

It might've been your technique, maybe the gun didn't fit you, etc, etc.

So, what are you going to buy instead?

.

qwert65
March 4, 2009, 12:46 PM
lgbloader, how big is the grip on the para?

lgbloader
March 4, 2009, 12:53 PM
It has some meat to it but is not akward by any means. I really like their feel since my hands are larger than the norm. I really suggest you go to your nearest trading post and check them out. I got mine for protection in mind since I could get the hi cap mags for them. You can also get them in single action or LDA (Light double action) their LDA is really smooth.

LGB

crebralfix
March 4, 2009, 01:02 PM
I've long thought about redesigning the 1911 by changing the internal configuration while maintaining the external dimensions.

While I appreciate the 1911 design, I really don't see them as practical as currently implemented today by the majority of manufacturers. They are too finicky and (as Dave Champion puts it) require a relationship with the gun. The limited reliability of the gun is its primary problem; having to bounce a round into the chamber because the top of the magazine sits too low is just a bad design. It needs more of a horizontal shot into the chamber. The thumb and grip safeties are redundant and make it a mediocre combat arm. It's easy to flub the grip or miss the thumb safety, even under the minor stress of competition ("minor" as compared to a life or death situation).

I think where they really excel is in competition. Some of the modern day modifications available are simply incredible.

For me, the only 1911's in my future are the Colt WWI Reproduction and (maybe) a Colt Series 70. Other than that, I don't have much affection for the gun.

Matrix187
March 4, 2009, 01:41 PM
I like european high cap 9mm pistols the most. Every single one I've shot from SIG, HK, Glock, or CZ work great from the factory and are modern. I prefer the modern hi cap guns.

I think the 1911 built the way it was intended, as a military gun with loose tolerances, was the best pistol of its time.

Casefull
March 4, 2009, 02:31 PM
I just came from the range to try out my new fnp 45. I liked it a lot 14 rounds and the grip is a lot nicer than my glock 20. SAor DA is nice feature. I then took out my kimber 1911 and shot a few disks. My kimber is set up for super so it has a solid recoil. I was acquiring targets in half the time and hitting all of them...practice will close the gap a little but those quick follow up shots are hard to duplicate when I get away from this particular 1911. BTW my eaa witness in 10mm is closest to the kimber in accurate fire.

Maelstrom
March 4, 2009, 06:30 PM
That's IT! I've had enough of your heresy!!! The 1911 is the single greatest firearm of all time!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!!!ONEONEONEFIFTYFOUR

Boats
March 4, 2009, 06:48 PM
I love it when people refer to the greatness of 1911A1 in the past tense by saying "In its day. . ."

It is still having its day at the point of the spear, in duty holsters, and concealed upon the hips of many thousands of private citizens every day.

PT1911
March 4, 2009, 06:54 PM
well... I am going to be objective here.. I have two 1911's and I love the feel and accuracy they provide... also, you can get a new pt1911 with all the bells and whistles already provided at a very reasonable price of 5-600. as with all taurus guns, this has a lifetime warranty that goes with the gun... used or new.

also.. I have never had to use a tool to take mine apart.. I dont know what that is about...

any disassembly that is necessary can be done by hand on my taurus...

as for shooting comfort, I dont know the size of your hands or other circumstances of your shooting, but I have never experienced any pain from shooting my 1911's...

jdc1244
March 4, 2009, 07:14 PM
I own and have shot only Coltís 1911s so I donít know anything about other makes. The Colts are a joy to look at and use; the trigger is remarkable. Remember 1911 is a platform, not a make; some do 1911 well and others not so well. Thereís nothing wrong with not liking 1911s and I respect the opinion. Like most things itís subjective: 1911s are perfect for me, I understand them and am very comfortable and familiar with them. Find an auto you like and use well and enjoy.

StoPPeR
March 4, 2009, 07:33 PM
Not that it matter but I feel the need to say a thing or two about 1911's. I am fairly new to handguns. I had shot a little in the Air Force but that was quite minimal. Different mission than other branches. I am used to computers. I have been a consultant/analyst for a quite a few years. I feel I am used to evaluating machines fairly well.

1911's seem to work quite well when they are tweaked just right, But the problem I see is that it is a design not made for the manufacturing process of today. This seems to me to be key. Manufacturing methods have evolved since John Moses Browning's time. Today it is perfectly acceptable to have certain part made in the "MIM" process. I think too many do not realize that manufacturing plays such a key role into the availability or popularity of a tool.

It just seems to me that the same regiment to design from the past can be applied with the technology of the now. Mainly I mean the manufacturing processes. It really seem that this is true with platforms such as Glock or Springfield, with the XD line: which I am partial too.

Yes I carry an XD, but mainly a Keltec PF9. I understand the past and I understand its desire for perfections but I just don't get it. Why does the trigger need to break so cleanly with little reset or whatever your concerns are. Why is it not better to train with the toolss that can be manufactured to such volumes that that everyone has a tool that will go bang and on target when needed?

I guess I just don't get it...:cool:

krs
March 4, 2009, 07:46 PM
Anyone who doesn't care for the 1911 is a pansy.

TeamPrecisionIT
March 4, 2009, 08:09 PM
Watch Gran Torino and then tell me you don't want a 1911

Lonestar.45
March 4, 2009, 09:29 PM
They were however both pretty accurate, the Les Bear of course being the best accuracy I've ever seen out of a handgun.


And therein lies why I like them. You say you shot the Les Baer, and it was the best accuracy out of a handgun you'd ever seen. BUT YOU WEREN'T IMPRESSED??

To me, only accurate guns are interesting, and the more accurate, the more interesting (and impressive).

I have Glocks, Kahrs and others, which I like for their price, reliability, ruggedness. But I LOVE my 1911's because I shoot sooo much better with them. And the ones I own have been 100% reliable.

To each his own however. I'll readily admit 1911's aren't for everyone. To those that grew up shooting double stack polymers, the 1911's probably just don't "feel" right, kinda like Glocks, etc. don't "feel" right to me. Nothing wrong with that. Find what you like, make sure it's reliable, and shoot shoot shoot.

Believe me, if you weren't impressed with the Les Baer, even after it having "the best accuracy I've ever seen out of a handgun", then the 1911 is obviously not for you.

Art Eatman
March 4, 2009, 10:53 PM
I always figured that the absolute best handgun was the one with which you were most accurate. (Limiting this to the more realistic self-defense cartridges. :))

Now, I've messed with darned near every make of semi-auto critter--although not each and every model--except the Sig. I think I have a fair acquaintance with a whole bunch of go-bangs. I grant that I've not messed with these newer custom 1911-looking critters on the market today.

I first shot a 1911 somewhere around 1949. I first owned one about 1966. I got some combat pistol training in 1980, and into IPSC in 1981.

Been a lot of new stuff show up. All manner of varieties in various formats for different purposes.

Ol' Slabsides still fits my hands better and more comfortably than any of the others, which is wonderful for me and irrrelevant to anybody whose hands are different. :) Reliability has never been an issue in a whole bunch of thousands of rounds. Accuracy has been plenty good enough for my needs. (Any dropped shots in IPSC was me, not the bloomin' gun!)

So, I'm happy. And totally uninterested in raining on anybody else's parade.

There is no such thing as a "best pistol". There is only what works best for you--and that you've learned which one from your own experiences.

S&Wfan
March 4, 2009, 11:56 PM
Art nailed it . . . then again, that's why he makes the "big bucks" around here!;)

Shooting competitions should be what all budding handgunners resolve to do as often as possible, just like Art did years ago (and yours truly too).

Shooting under pressure and stress, against the clock and other shooters shows everyone REAL FAST what types of guns "win." You'll see lots of new shooters showing up with all sorts of stuff . . . and a year later, if they don't mind losing as they learn, have different equipment . . . guns that WIN!

No bottom feeder wins like a 1911-style pistol . . . and S&W revolvers rule the wheelgun matches. Glocks will a lot in service pistol classes (yes, they have a class set aside for the Polymer guys with their police-style/long heavy trigger pulls made to satisfy lawyers).

That being said, I want what I shoot best in my hand if trouble ever comes kicking in MY door! You should too, of course . . . only PLEASE FIND OUT WHAT YOUR BEST GUN IS!!! Go to some matches! Join an active shooting club! Shoot different guns and find out what makes you a "winner" . . . because in a gun fight, finishing second isn't an option!;)


PS: What do I shoot best? S&W revolvers! I once won a special "steel" match against about 30 handgunners, all using high capacity pistols! 18 steel plates and poppers spread out over a 90 degree arc at varying distances from 10-30 yards. Fastest time from the buzzer won the entire pot of money! Guns started UNLOADED and at least ONE manditory reload (that favored the 9mm Glock guys with their 33 round magazines and the STI/Para crowd with their P14 .45s) was required.

Yep, I won, cleaning all 18 steels with 18 rounds (loading just three times). I can reload my moon-clipped .45ACP revolver as fast as I can my 1911 race gun and the revolver naturally points for me. Heck, I really don't have to use the sights much it has become so instinctive! I shot the revolver in the match as a lark . . . and won anyway. The faster those other guys tried to go, the more they missed. You don't win by missing.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/277718/2220845IMG2474-2.jpg

ironvic
March 5, 2009, 12:50 AM
I like 1911s, even though I'm a die-hard revolver man (S&W). In the 1911 platform I've owned two Ballester Molinas, Colt Enhanced, Kimber Pro Carry, a ParaOrdnance P-12 and the Springfield GI compact model. I've even owned two Sig P-220s in .45 Auto, but that's for another thread I guess. Of all of them, only the Springfield GI shot like a lump of junk, a real jammomatic. Of course, that's no bad on the Springfield as each gun is an individual, some good, some bad. All the others shot reliably and accurately, pure joy. Recoil in all was no problem, even gentle because I'm used to the sharp smack of the .357 in a Smith & Wesson K-Frame.

The 1911? I love 'em. All of mine were sold over the years to pay bills or put food in the 'fridge during tough times. When I'm back in the chips, I plan on getting another 1911. Heck, I even love reloading the empties. There's a lot to be said for the .45 Auto as a cartridge as well. Easy to reload, hot or mild and accurate as you want. Recoil is more of a "push." With the right .45 and enough time on the trigger to earn my trust, I wouldn't hesitate to get another.

alistaire
March 6, 2009, 02:01 PM
The fact is, nearly 100 years have passed since the 1911's inception, and some people can't cope with the fact that newer and better advances in technology have come along.

Let's list all the new technology:
1) night sights
2) polymer frames/aluminum frames

Double column mags? No, Mauser C96/Lee Enfield
Striker fired? 1908 Colt Vest Pocket
Double Action? Adams revolver 1850s
Hollow point bullets? Dum-Dum Arsenal 1890s
Full Auto fire? Maxim gun 1884.

Yes a lot of new technology has come along.

Prion
March 6, 2009, 02:28 PM
I love my new SS satin, black gripped, SA TRP 1911 so much.............sigh............I think I'll go give her a squeeze and tell her how I feel right now come to think of it.

David E
March 6, 2009, 02:47 PM
The fact is, nearly 100 years have passed since the 1911's inception, and some people can't cope with the fact that newer and better advances in technology have come along.

Let's see where Glock is in the year 2085...

I bet the 1911 is STILL going strong!

.

Jason_G
March 6, 2009, 10:14 PM
Shot two 1911's the other day, don't love it

It's okay, we'll pray for you. ;)

Jason

PT1911
March 6, 2009, 10:21 PM
and just what newer and better advances are being eluded to here?

"The fact is, nearly 100 years have passed since the 1911's inception, and some people can't cope with the fact that newer and better advances in technology have come along."

Geronimo45
March 6, 2009, 10:33 PM
and just what newer and better advances are being eluded to here?
How about field-stripping?

PT1911
March 6, 2009, 10:35 PM
it takes all of about 1 minute(if I'm slow) for me to strip my 1911's

not sure how much faster you need to do that...

granted it isnt a simply push a button and the gun flies apart, but take down is still quite simple... and doesnt require a trigger to be pulled..hmmmmmmm

Geronimo45
March 6, 2009, 10:47 PM
Sig doesn't require a trigger pull, either... and reassembly doesn't involve that weird swinging link. Best thing is that the recoil spring plug doesn't go flying across the room. :D

PT1911
March 6, 2009, 10:55 PM
granted it takes some getting used to, but once a person is familiar with disassembly it is all too easy.. the only thing that is genuinly easier for me to disassemble is my steyr M9-A1, I guess it is all in what you prefer.

I will say that i dont think a guns breakdown process (especially one that can be mastered so easily) can be seen as something from the past.. personally, I hate the way a glock breaks down, I only bring that up because, SADLY, that is the gun that all guns seem to be measured against right now...

cannot comment on the sig..no experience with them.

Billy Shears
March 6, 2009, 10:58 PM
Sig doesn't require a trigger pull, either... and reassembly doesn't involve that weird swinging link. Best thing is that the recoil spring plug doesn't go flying across the room.
The SIG has a higher bore axis (more muzzle flip), not nearly as nice a trigger, and what's so hard about dealing with the swinging link? And if you have a problem with the recoil spring plug, get a GI style one; it has pressed in catch, which grabs onto the spring and holds it in place.

jerkface11
March 7, 2009, 01:14 AM
and just what newer and better advances are being eluded to here?

How about a gun it's easy to de-cock? Or a gun you can clear the chamber on without disengaging the safety? In short how about a Hi-power or a CZ-75.

Gryffydd
March 7, 2009, 02:57 AM
Additionally, I don't think you should have to spend $1200 just to have a one optioned-out to perform where a $500 stock (insert Sig, Glock, etc here) performs right out of the box.

I wonder how I got so lucky to buy a $600 Springfield Armory Mil-Spec and have it perform right out of the box?
And where are these $500 Sigs? :P

I love the 1911 because it fits me. I love the XD because it fits me. I can't stand the Glock because it doesn't fit me. That doesn't make the Glock any worse of a firearm, it just makes it not fit well in my hand.

Prince Yamato
March 7, 2009, 03:42 AM
and just what newer and better advances are being eluded to here?

Don't forget DA triggers and ability to be easily suppressed. Also, take-down is rather primitive as most people end up with an "idiot mark" on their gun. Take-down should be simple enough that most people don't end up scratching their gun. Don't forget standardized sights (ie, you buy Glock sights for Glocks, XD sights for XDs, but you have to have custom work down for different sights on 1911s).

I think the 1911 is alright. I don't own one anymore. I sold my Springfield GI for a Glock 26 over a year ago. 1911s are great if you want to customize the heck out of your gun. A stock GI shoots nice but it is what it is, a 100 year old design.

It's a comfy gun to hold, so I can see it's appeal in that respect.

Other than that, sorry Grandpa, it's a 100 year old design.

khegglie
March 7, 2009, 07:38 AM
I'm a recent comvert to the 1911.
A Para 14-45 fills the need for a hi-cap. An LDA does the double action(AND hi-cap) thing, A RIA plain jane fills the just plain fun need!
Both feed any thing ang are make-me-look-good accurate.
Love.yeah. But I carry aGlock 27 for daily CC.

Lonestar.45
March 7, 2009, 09:24 AM
I don't get all the fuss about how hard 1911's are to take down. Really I don't.
Those with full length guide rods are super easy, and those without (the original GI style) even a monkey could disassemble/reassemble. Everyone now days seems to think if it isn't Lego snap together easy, it is just too difficult. I don't get it.

Technological advances? Okay, take down a Ruger Mk I, or a S&W 5906, (or any other number of new semi-autos) both of whose designs are decades newer than the 1911, and then tell me how difficult the 1911 is to take down.

Deanimator
March 7, 2009, 09:38 AM
A Series 70 Colt was my first handgun. It's still my bullseye wadcutter gun, with a 1" UltraDot mounted on the slide.

There are lots of guns that overall can do what an M1911 can do, about as well. I can't name one that does it better.

I carry a variety of firearms from day to day. I usually switch at the beginning of the week. I routinely carry a Norinco M1911. It gets the job done as well as anything else, and better than most. It's reliable, accurate and fires a highly effective round. It doesn't hold fifteen rounds, but nothing .45acp that does comfortably fits my hand. Only my High Power comes close to being as comfortable in my hand. Carrying cocked and locked is perfectly natural to me. It's a gun, not a 1938 vintage Japanese handgrenade I dug up on Saipan. It isn't going to "just go off" by itself. Even carried cocked and UNlocked, I still have to pull the trigger.

I carry alternately a Glock 19, a Glock 22, a S&W Model 65, a S&W Model 36, a Browning High Power, and a Norinco M1911. I feel every bit as confident in my ability to effectively defend myself with the M1911 as I do with any of the others.

Billy Shears
March 7, 2009, 09:41 AM
I think the 1911 is alright. I don't own one anymore. I sold my Springfield GI for a Glock 26 over a year ago. 1911s are great if you want to customize the heck out of your gun. A stock GI shoots nice but it is what it is, a 100 year old design.
Exactly, and that's why it's better. It was designed at a time when the goal was to build the most effective weapon possible, not to build one that was good enough while still being able to avoid product liability lawsuits.

Other than that, the age of the design is irrelevant. When something was designed makes zero difference to how well it works. Age doesn't matter; performance matters. If it's accurate, reliable, user-friendly, and performs well (which the 1911 does, when it's not monkeyed with by unskilled gunsmiths), what possible difference can the age of the design make? Are you less dead when shot with a 100 year old gun?

jdc1244
March 7, 2009, 11:37 AM
Just my opinion.

Indeed.

Prince Yamato
March 7, 2009, 11:49 AM
Exactly, and that's why it's better. It was designed at a time when the goal was to build the most effective weapon possible, not to build one that was good enough while still being able to avoid product liability lawsuits.

A stock 1911, I would classify as very reliable. The issue is, you are still left with a 100 year-old design, with the aforementioned principal flaws. The sights are bad, it's single action, and take-down is more difficult than it needs to be.

Once you start changing the initial design, you start having problems. Now, others will say that their STIs are hi-cap and double action, but I believe you're then into the 2011 platform and in addition, IIRC, STIs are their own pattern of design and not fully interchangeable with the 1911. The same is true for people who customize their Glocks alla Robar and CCI. You start changing the design enough (like with steel guide rods) and you start having problems that were not present in the initial design.

bottom shelf
March 7, 2009, 12:54 PM
I'm not a big fan of the 1911 either, but there's no disputing it's rich history and tradition.

1911Tuner
March 7, 2009, 01:04 PM
No sin in havin' no joy with the 1911. Some don't. TheGlock is a good, solid weapon, but I can't warm up to'em to save me. Diff'rent strokes and all.

1911s are sweet guns, but I'd never trust my life on one.

This coming from a guy who has owned the best of the best (les baer TRS).

Pity. I've got about 3 dozen here that I'd trust without even takin'em out for a test run...and none of'em are high-end semi customs. That it costs about 3 times what it should ain't a guarantee that it's good.

it takes all of about 1 minute(if I'm slow) for me to strip my 1911's

If you're fast, you can detail strip one, starting with an assembled pistol...in under a minute for the slide and frame.

'Course, if it's got all them unnecessary doodads like reverse-plug recoil systems and 2-piece FLGRs and ambi safeties...it'll take a little longer. ;)

kbheiner7
March 7, 2009, 01:30 PM
Not sure why anyone would want to dis the 1911. If you don't like it, fine - shoot something else.

Clearly, anyone saying Hi-point guns are more reliable than the 1911 is clinically insane and out to pick a fight. :rolleyes:

76shuvlinoff
March 7, 2009, 01:58 PM
They are a novelty gun and shouldn't be used for HD or SD.



what the hell? :banghead:

Billy Shears
March 7, 2009, 06:37 PM
A stock 1911, I would classify as very reliable. The issue is, you are still left with a 100 year-old design...
Age means nothing. A design is not worse just because it is old, or better just because it is new. By that logic, an Airbus A380 is a better airplane than the SR-71 Blackbird, because the Blackbird is 50 years old. Age means nothing. Performance is what matters. If the gun can still do everything demanded of a combat handgun as well as any other design out there, then it makes not the slightest difference whatsoever that the design is old.

...with the aforementioned principal flaws. The sights are bad...
I can't think of a single 1911 anymore, even the bare stock ones, apart from exact copies of vintage guns, like the Colt WWI repro, that comes out of the box with bad sights. And if you should chance to get one, sights are just about the easiest fix there is on a gun.

...it's single action...
This is not a drawback. It's a virtue. There is no gun faster to get an accurate first shot off than a cocked and locked single action, and no gun permits faster follow up shots either, if the shooter has the skill to take advantage of the 1911's short trigger pull and short reset. If you don't like single actions, fine. But that's your preference, not a design flaw.

...and take-down is more difficult than it needs to be.
I think it takes me a whopping 20 whole seconds longer to strip my 1911 than it does my Glock 17. You're right. That's a deal breaker.

Geronimo45
March 7, 2009, 09:10 PM
There is no gun faster to get an accurate first shot off than a cocked and locked single action
Do you have any proof of that?

jerkface11
March 7, 2009, 09:37 PM
Oh yeah now I remember why 1911 guys bug me. The chip on their shoulder.

Billy Shears
March 7, 2009, 09:37 PM
Do you have any proof of that?
If you mean laboratory type studies performed under controlled conditions, no. I doubt if there ever can be such a thing, given different people's different reaction speeds.

But having said that, Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, Chuck Taylor, and numerous others have found it to be the case. I have found it to be the case, and I have carried double action revolvers, DA/SA autos (my first police department-issued handgun), DA only autos (my second department-issued handgun), and the Glock, with its sort-of-double-action-only trigger. There is nothing I can get an accurate first shot off, or accurate rapid follow up shots with as fast as I can with a 1911. And finally, there is a reason that the 1911 dominates in competitions where speed out of the holster and speed at hitting targets is paramount.

All in all, it rather seems as though you are asking me to prove the sky is blue.

None of this is to say you can't be incredibly fast with a different gun if you have the skill. Bill Jordan, for example, was blindingly fast with the double action revolver that he preferred -- probably faster than 99.9% of 1911 shooters. The shooter, more than the handgun, is the critical factor. But all things considered, the light, short, and consistent pull of the 1911, along with its short reset, is a decided advantage, which is why so many people still choose it over anything else.

1911Tuner
March 7, 2009, 09:39 PM
There is no gun faster to get an accurate first shot off than a cocked and locked single action,

Actually, the gun that holds the distinction of being the fastest for an on-target first shot from the leather is the 1873 SAA. After that...yeah...the cocked single-action autopistol has it, though some of the well-practiced Glockers are closing the gap.

Dan Crocker
March 7, 2009, 09:52 PM
Funny how crazy people can get over this topic. Guy states his preference...big deal.

mljdeckard
March 7, 2009, 09:56 PM
First of all, if you don't like it, you don't like it. You should use the guns you feel comfortable with and shoot well. Tell the internet experts to pound sand. It's your butt, not theirs.

HAVING SAID THAT, I carried a LOT of different guns before I came back to a 1911, and I don't see myself ever going back. Carrying a single-action-only auto with the hammer cocked and the safety on is only less safe in your head. There is more preventing that hammer from falling than on say, a Glock with a round chambered. The fact that you can SEE the cocked hammer messes with you.

Not all 1911s need tools to strip them. I switched mine back to the G.I. style guide rod, no more tools.

I've said this many times, I have a certain amount of disdain for custom 1911 snobs. I have shot the custom guns, and for the life of me, I can't see what any of them can do that my $608 Kimber can't.

f4t9r
March 7, 2009, 10:20 PM
Like what you want and love what you want.
Many guns out there. Nobody (well some do) says you have to like one gun or another. Two guns you get flamed for saying you do not like are the 1911 & Glock. I really do not care what you like only what I like.

PT1911
March 7, 2009, 11:48 PM
I dont like glocks, I do like 1911's but the problem isnt who likes or dislikes what... when you call a superior type of a design (which still dominates competition shooting) out dated and inferior, it is bout to ruffle some feathers.. I have no problem with someone saying they prefer another gun over a 1911, even a glock (sigh), but coming up with stupid reasons like the take down is too difficult, or I dont like the hammer, or the trigger is bad... if you dont like it, say you dont like it... dont invent reasons to justify it to yourself... obviously all of those reasons are completely unfounded seeing as the takedown is simple taking only a few seconds to completely strip one, the trigger is more consistent along with first shot accuracy (as well as being very easily customized), and the cocked and locked hammer is actually, in my and many minds, safer than an internal hammer or striker fire... the one thing a 1911 is missing is a decock, but then again, so are the majority of modern guns and I personally wouldnt want one on a 1911 anyhow...

76shuvlinoff
March 8, 2009, 06:46 AM
We all got our dislikes .. the world keeps turning...

Billy Shears
March 8, 2009, 09:18 AM
I dont like glocks, I do like 1911's but the problem isnt who likes or dislikes what... when you call a superior type of a design (which still dominates competition shooting) out dated and inferior, it is bout to ruffle some feathers.. I have no problem with someone saying they prefer another gun over a 1911, even a glock (sigh), but coming up with stupid reasons like the take down is too difficult, or I dont like the hammer, or the trigger is bad... if you dont like it, say you dont like it... dont invent reasons to justify it to yourself... obviously all of those reasons are completely unfounded seeing as the takedown is simple taking only a few seconds to completely strip one, the trigger is more consistent along with first shot accuracy (as well as being very easily customized), and the cocked and locked hammer is actually, in my and many minds, safer than an internal hammer or striker fire... the one thing a 1911 is missing is a decock, but then again, so are the majority of modern guns and I personally wouldnt want one on a 1911 anyhow...
I agree completely. There's no reason for a decocker on a single action pistol -- why would you ever want to lower the hammer on a live round? That's the least safe way to carry or store the pistol.

I agree with your other comments as well. To say that one doesn't care for the 1911 because one prefers a revolver, or wants a gun with a hi-cap magazine, or prefers DAO, or just likes the feel of another gun better or the way it shoots is all well and good. Everybody's got the preferences. But some of the reasons people are giving smack of self-justification. Some people razz on the pro-1911 crowd for being unreasonable about the gun or having a chip on their shoulder, but there seems to be an anti-1911 crowd that displays those traits just as strongly, only on the opposite side of the issue.

jerkface11
March 8, 2009, 11:06 AM
I actually have one 1911 in .38 super. and 3 1911ish guns two of which are tiny llamas in .22 and .380 the other is a Star 9mm. They only suck in .45. However I don't think that they're the most advanced pistols in the world.

PT1911
March 8, 2009, 08:51 PM
absolutely right.... a 1911 is not the most advanced handgun in the world.. nor is any glock, smith, ruger, cz, or any other mainstream maker..

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20031026T060000-0500_50737_OBS_A__SMART_GUN__THAT_ONLY_AUTHORISED_USERS_CAN_FIRE_.asp

when these guns are mass produced, then the 1911, along with all other current guns on the market will be outdated.. until then, the 1911 remains on par or better than the others...

HexHead
March 8, 2009, 09:45 PM
I've said this many times, I have a certain amount of disdain for custom 1911 snobs. I have shot the custom guns, and for the life of me, I can't see what any of them can do that my $608 Kimber can't.

I used to think that when I first got my Kimbers too. I doubted I'd ever be able to tell the difference an extra $1000++ or more would get me.

Then I got my Nighthawk. One magazine through it and I knew one of the Kimbers was soon to be history. It shot groups half the size of the Kimbers. Everything else in the way it felt in my hand to the smoothness of the slide was just icing on the cake.

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