.375H&H/.458mag sniper/elephant guns?


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coosbaycreep
March 5, 2009, 02:09 AM
I've been planning on getting some kind of high powered rifle for quite awhile now, and assuming I don't find some sort of bling bling mall ninja tactical gun that grabs my interest first, I might buy one this week hopefully.

I was originally wanting to get something like a .458WM/Lott, but I haven't found any of those for very cheap, other than a mauser conversion which I decided against. I've also been wanting to get another high power .30 cal rifle, because I don't have anything bigger than .30-06, and I wanted something more powerful that was capable of better long range accuracy. This got me thinking about the .375H&H mag.

I've read a lot about how versatile and effective this caliber is, and how it's one of the best long range calibers as far as large calibers go, but just what kind of range are they talking about? With light bullets, how does a .375 compare to a .300WM? The main gun I'm looking at right now in .375 is the remington 700 SPS. They can be had for $625-$700 from what I've seen online.

If I knew for sure that a .375 would satisfy my recoil addiction and be a reasonably adequate long range gun, then I wouldn't have to buy a .300WM too. The cheapest factory ammo for .375 is $30. 458WM/Lott is around $80, and hornady is basically the only manufacturer in that price range.

Some of the hot 375 loads generate 5000 pounds of energy, compared to 5800lbs for the 458Lott, but the .458 does it with a bullet that weighs twice as much. I don't have a "need" for an "elephant" gun, but it's something I want. I haven't shot any rifle bigger than a .338WM, but my 3.5" 12ga with slugs has 4759lbs with a 600gr slug. I imagine the 375 would be fairly tolerable recoil wise. I think my shotgun is suppose to generate similar recoil to a .458WM, and although it's hardly pleasant, the cost of slugs is more of a reason I don't shoot it often than the recoil is.

Although I want an accurate high powered rifle, I'm personally not capable of long range accuracy. I just want something that has the capabilities, so if hell ever freezes over and I can suddenly hit stuff past point blank range, at least I'll already have something capable of that.

I don't hunt anything larger than jack rabbits, so that doesn't factor into caliber choice.

I'd also prefer a bolt action over a single shot. The only .458Lott in my price range is a ruger no.1. The only factory rifle in .458 mag in my price range is basically the remington 798 (which has bad reviews from most of what I've read on it). I know remington 700s are pretty much the most popular bolt action rifle there is, so that's another reason I'm kinda leaning towards the .375H&H.

So, if you were me, would you just buy the .375H&H, and then maybe get a scope for it, or a rifled barrel for my shotgun in case the 375 wasn't as powerful as you hoped for? Or would you just buy a .458, and get a cheap .300WM like a used savage 110 or something?

I'm concerned that if I get the 375 that it won't be as powerful as I hoped for, and then I'm stuck with a gun that will be difficult to sell unless I take big loss on it money wise. Of course, if I get a .458 and it's not as awesomely powerful as I had hoped for, then I've got a gun that's not only difficult to sell without a big loss, but also much more expensive to shoot, and not nearly as versatile.

For those of you that have shot these guns/calibers I'm interested in, how much difference in recoil is there? How does the recoil compare to a 12ga?

thanks

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gga357
March 5, 2009, 02:26 AM
You should look at the .416 Barrett. Haven't shot one but it is very impresive on paper.

Zak Smith
March 5, 2009, 02:33 AM
Here's the deal.

Long-range is all about bullet BC, provided rifle accuracy and some "reasonable" muzzle velocity. Let's say for a good long-range setup you want a BC > 0.60 and MV > 2750 fps, to make sort of an arbitrary categorization.

.375 Winchester pushes a 220 gr bullet at about 2200 fps (Hornady book). .375 HH does a 300gr (BC 0.460) @ 2500 fps. .458 WM is 500gr (BC 0.295) at 2150 fps. The BC's on these bullets are terrible.

Note that to get a BC in the 0.6 range, you need approx these masses (and the proper bullet design) in these calibers:

6mm: 115gr+
6.5mm: 140gr+
7mm: 162gr+
.30: 210gr+
.33: 250gr+
.375: 322gr+ *
.45: 460gr+ *
.50: 650gr+

* For .375 and .45 , I don't even know any conventional-construction bullets with this BC range.

Here is my best advice for selecting a long-range cartridge

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/icon/D100_3368_img.jpg
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/)

So basically, it comes down to: do you want an actual long-range cartridge, or do you want what is a short-range thumper? The two categories of cartridges you've named as examples are pretty much one or the other.

Although I want an accurate high powered rifle, I'm personally not capable of long range accuracy. I just want something that has the capabilities, so if hell ever freezes over and I can suddenly hit stuff past point blank range, at least I'll already have something capable of that.

Not gonna happen without practice and training, and those aren't gonna happen very effectively if every time you pull the trigger it's like getting punched in the face.

gvnwst
March 5, 2009, 10:48 AM
For .375 and .45 , I don't even know any conventional-construction bullets with this BC range.


Lutz Moller makes some*, but they are very expensive, as they are made to order. Actually, they run something like 1.4 BC, so it almost makes up for the price.

*not conventional construction though.
:)

Other than that, Zak pretty much summed it up. If you want a "big game" rifle that can also shoot LR, and you don't mind recoil, then the .338 lapua mag (or .338/378wby mag) or the .416 barrett should do. Or the .460 steyr if they are even sold in the states? My favorite caliber of all time is the 7mm rem mag, you can hunt large, non "dangerous", game with it, and it is a VERY good LR caliber.

jbech123
March 5, 2009, 11:17 AM
Dude you are all over the map.
First, you seem hung up on rifle and ammo price. Nothing wrong with being thrifty, but if that is the case then "elephant guns" may not be the game for you. There are a few exceptions, but generally the guns and the ammo are pricey. There are a few 375h&h offereings that are reasonable, but generally not a cheap hobby.
Although both can be powerful, a sniper "type" rifle and an elephant gun are apples and oranges. A 458 winmag, while a fantastic dangerous game round, is a ballistic embarrasment past 200 yards or so. The 375 does offer a decent compromise to 400yds, but you have to define "long range". Go to a match at a local range for any type of long range shooting- I doubt you will see a 375 there. Way too much recoil for not very good long range performance.
So, if you were me, would you just buy the .375H&H, and then maybe get a scope for it, or a rifled barrel for my shotgun in case the 375 wasn't as powerful as you hoped for? If a 375 h&h is not powerful enough for you, a shotgun certainly won't be.
As far as the 375 h&h, if you don't hunt, it is not the round for you. What the 375 brings to the table is enough thump to take down the biggest animals on earth, but still 308-ish trajectory to 400 yards or so to make them not a horrible choice for a deer/elk/moose rifle for a guy that desires "one gun for everything"(a horrible concept, but that would be a whole new discussion).
For those of you that have shot these guns/calibers I'm interested in, how much difference in recoil is there? How does the recoil compare to a 12ga?
A 375 without a muzzle break is slightly more than a 12 ga with 3 inch slugs, I don't have a 3.5" 12 ga but that would probably be close to a 375. the various 416's and 458's go up from there. Shooting them off of a bench increases discomfort considerably. I have a 375 and while I don't shoot 40 rounds in a row off the bench or anything, I don't find it horribly uncomfortable to shoot. I am not a big guy at 5'9"/160lbs, so there is a point of reference for you.
I hate to sound rude, but I have to be honest with you, it seems like you just want a elephant gun so you can impress people that don't know much that you have an elephant gun. You say you don't hunt anything bigger than a jackrabbit. If that is the case, you don't need an african cartridge. In the grand scheme of your other budgetary concerns, if what you really like is the heavy recoil sensation, shoot your 3.5" slugs from a sandbag 20 times in a row. If that is not enough punishment, maybe rifle shooting is not what you are after at all...maybe you are into S&M.
I've also been wanting to get another high power .30 cal rifle, because I don't have anything bigger than .30-06, and I wanted something more powerful that was capable of better long range accuracy. This got me thinking about the .375H&H mag.
A 30-06 is actually a much better long range round than a 375. Not so much nowadays, but many a 1000yd match has been won with a 30-06.
If you are interested in long range shooting, read Zakk's article referenced above, dude knows his stuff and brings a common sense, factual approach to an industry that is filled with hype. What you will find is that for long range shooting, especially for targets, something like a 260 remington will be far superior to a 375 h&h, and the good old 308 is a decent choice for someone just getting into the long range game. I heard someone once say "For long range, buy a factory heavy barrel 308, when you have shot the first barrel out, you will have enough experience to have an opinion on what you really need".

Semmerling
March 5, 2009, 11:30 AM
jbeck +1

To buy these calibers, for the reason stated, and then end with "I'm interested in, how much difference in recoil is there?"

Mr. Smith is so darn right, full stop.

Zak Smith
March 5, 2009, 12:43 PM
gvnwst,

I didn't want to get into the .375, .408, .416 specialized long-range cartridges because the guns are extremely expensive and the ammo is the same or more expensive than .50BMG to shoot.

To the OP,

SAKO makes or used to make the TRG-S in .338 Lapua. It was like a 8# gun and was apparently meant for moose hunting or something. It has an action very similar to the TRG-42. I personally would not want to fire this without a muzzle brake or suppressor. (I have shot my 18# AI 338 without the brake-. twice.)

However, I guess it would satisfy the need for brutal recoil and actual long-range ability that the OP seems to want. When he gets tired of the senseless punishment, he can add 4# of lead to the stock and add the TRG brake.

For a big bore for grins at the range that you aren't going to shoot a whole lot, you can probably get a CZ or Remington factory rifle in one of the big hunting calibers and a few boxes of ammo for less than $1000. You wouldn't even need a scope, just conventional rifle sights, for range fun.

mr.trooper
March 5, 2009, 12:59 PM
.375 H&H is your best bet for a dual purpose long range / dangerous game rifle.

But you will need to reload if you want long range ballistics. The 375 H&H can push a 300 grain bullet at roughly the same velocity as a 300 WIN MAG will push a 200 grain bullet, and it will do so with an additional 1,400 ft-lbs of energy.

the only hurdle is bullet selection. most .375 bullets are heavy round nosed bullets for close range dangerous game. BUT, if you look, you will find boat tails and spitzers from major manufacturers with some decent ballistic coefficients:

* Hornady 300gr BTSP, BC of .460
* Combined technology 300gr Fail Safes, BC = .441
* Nosler 260gr Accubond, BC of .473
* Nosler 300gr Accubond, BC of .485

The 300 grain Accubond can safely be pushed up to 2,600 fps. With a 100 yard zero, it will arrive at the 1,000 yard line with a little over 900 foot pounds, and drop 40 minutes of angle.

the 300 win mag will push a 200 grain bullet at around 2,700 fps. With a 100 yard zero, it will arrive at the 1,000 yard line with a little less than 700 foot pounds, and drop 36 minutes of angle.

The 300 mag is the flatter shooter at exceedingly long distances, but as you can see the 375 hits harder, and can still be made competitive with off the shelf conventional bullets.

H&Hhunter
March 5, 2009, 01:02 PM
I shoot a .375H&H I use Barnes 270 gr bullets for "long" range work. BC on the old Barnes is just at .500 the TSX is in the .450 range. My muzzle velocity is @ 2700 FPS +. Max listed load out of a 24" pipe is 2820FPS with a 270 gr bullet. I shoot a short barreled .375 so I can't get that.

Could some one please explain to me how a .30-06 is a better "long range" gun on large game animals such as elk and moose? I understand the argument if we are talking punching holes in paper. But a cross canyon moose or brown bear is another thing entirely.

Heck lets bring the .338 win into the discussion. You'll find that on paper the .338 has very slight edge over the .375H&H at range. You'll find that in the field the H&H is the uncontested middle weight champion of the world.;)

As for the OP If it's recoil you want buy a CZ 550 in a .500 Jeffery or a .505 Gibbs. That will cure your need I can assure you from personal experience. But if you want an honest to god no kidding multipurpose usable big game rifle the .375H&H is the way to go.

Zak Smith
March 5, 2009, 01:11 PM
For reference, the 375HH shooting the 300gr Accubonds at 2600 fps that mr.trooper referred to has trajectory/wind performance just worse than the normal factory 175 SMK load in .308. (For grins, I threw in the 300gr .338LM load.)

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 | YARDS
175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 4.44 19.33 47.82 93.43 | wind (inches)
375HH/300 0.485 2600 > 0.00 4.67 20.42 50.51 98.15 | wind (inches)
338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > 0.00 2.64 11.13 26.52 50.08 | wind (inches)

175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 3.16 11.23 22.03 36.43 | drop (moa)
375HH/300 0.485 2600 > -0.00 3.34 11.85 23.29 38.61 | drop (moa)
338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > -0.00 2.64 9.14 17.00 26.36 | drop (moa)

175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2235 1863 1529 1261 | velocity (fps)
375HH/300 0.485 2600 > 2600 2182 1806 1481 1225 | velocity (fps)
338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > 2750 2471 2209 1963 1734 | velocity (fps)

This is to say nothing of terminal performance, but it provides a point of reference for how easy or hard it will be - at best - to make hits at long range. If you miss the terminal performance is moot.

jbech123
March 5, 2009, 02:41 PM
Could some one please explain to me how a .30-06 is a better "long range" gun on large game animals such as elk and moose?
I implied, but did not say, for target use. No doubt for hunting the 375's energy would be required for a long shot on an elk/moose/bear. Sorry for not being clear.
I have shot a brown bear with a 375 at 200+ yards. Flattened it. Did not even take one step. Penetration - Quartering toward me, hit in seam of shoulder, came out opposite hip. Remington Factory load, 300 gr. swift A-frame.
So bottom line for longer range big game work, 375 is awesome. But looking at Zakk's numbers:
375HH shooting the 300gr Accubonds at 2600 fps that mr.trooper referred to has trajectory/wind performance just worse than the normal factory 175 SMK load in .308.
for target work the 375 would be a horrible choice...way more recoil than a 308 for slightly worse trajectory. OP said he does not intend to use for hunting, hence I'd steer him away from a 375 H&H, since he would not be exploiting the advantages it brings to the table.

Zak Smith
March 5, 2009, 03:18 PM
And if you actually wanted to flatten something at 1000 yards, you have a lot better chance to actually hit it with 338LM (12% more recoil) than with the 375HH.

usmc1371
March 5, 2009, 03:23 PM
I have a cz550 375 and it kicks but it ain't no 458lott. I don't mind shooting the 375 from the bench for a few rounds and I am 5'11 and 155 pounds so not alot of meat on me. The most un fun gun I have shot is 338-378 weatherby with NO muzzle brake, only did that twice befor a very expensive scope punched me in the eye. The problem with big rounds is they cost alot to shoot. If you wan't to make pink mist out of jack rabbits get you a 7mm mag and shoot light bullets or if you want even more mist find you a 7mm stw :). The 7mm's shoot flat, most don't kick any worse than your 06 but they shoot flatter and are fun and you can afford to shoot them. Shoot a few slugs off the bench befor you shoot the 7mm to soften your shoulder up a tad and you are set.

H&Hhunter
March 5, 2009, 05:56 PM
And if you actually wanted to flatten something at 1000 yards, you have a lot better chance to actually hit it with 338LM (12% more recoil) than with the 375HH

The .375H&H is not a 1000 yard game round. Nor should anybody be shooting at game at 1000 yards unless they are trained and capable, and not ever on dangerous game. It is a fantastic intermediate sized dangerous game round and it is a seriously underrated large non dangerous game rifle out to any and all practical hunting ranges.



Zak run these numbers on your ballistics table. 270 gr Barnes B.C. @ .502 MV 2820.

I've killed several elk at over 400 yards with the .375H&H.

A prime example of how versatile this round is was last hunting season. I started the year off killing several dozen feral hogs in Texas at ranges from mere feet to several hundred yards. I then took my .375 H&H to Africa where I started the hunt off in South Africa on a friends ranch. I drew first blood on a gemsbok bull that needed to be culled @ 209 yards with a 300 gr Rhino solid shank. That was a one shot kill on a forward quartering bull breaking the on shoulder and exiting behind the offside ribs. The next day I smoked a pair of baboons at over 200 yards the second one was making steam for safer ground when he met Mr. 300 gr rhino!:D I am not trying to brag just making the point that those would have been very difficult shots with a .458 win/Lott.

I then flew up to the Zambezi valley in Zimbabwe and hunted cape buffalo in extremely thick jesse bush with the same rifle. My not so trusty Montana actioned .458 Lott died on this trip so I was using my back up rifle which was my .375H&H. On day three of the hunt I made a snap shot on a large buff bull at under 25 yards also killing it with one shot. The buffalo was quartering away the 300 gr TSX entered behind the on shoulder took out the heart,broke the off shoulder and was found just under the hide on the off side. That bull went less than 30 yards before kicking the bucket.

I then flew back to the US and killed a couple more dozen hogs over the summer. Then killed a running cow elk at about 150 yards in the aspens this season in Colorado with the same rifle. Could you have done all of this with one of the .338's sure theoretically except that they aren't legal to use on dangerous game in Zimabawe or South Africa. So the .375H&H wins in my book by default as the most versatile dangerous game legal, long range capable hunting round.

And as you can tell from my handle I am a bit biased when it comes to the H&H. I love this round!:)

Zak Smith
March 5, 2009, 06:00 PM
Here's the 270gr Barnes thrown into the mix

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 | YARDS
175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 4.44 19.33 47.82 93.43 | wind (inches)
375HH/300 0.485 2600 > 0.00 4.67 20.42 50.51 98.15 | wind (inches)
338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > 0.00 2.64 11.13 26.52 50.08 | wind (inches)
270 BRNS 0.502 2820 > 0.00 4.00 17.40 42.79 83.43 | wind (inches)

175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 3.16 11.23 22.03 36.43 | drop (moa)
375HH/300 0.485 2600 > -0.00 3.34 11.85 23.29 38.61 | drop (moa)
338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > -0.00 2.64 9.14 17.00 26.36 | drop (moa)
270 BRNS 0.502 2820 > -0.00 2.65 9.64 18.92 31.15 | drop (moa)

175 SMK 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2235 1863 1529 1261 | velocity (fps)
375HH/300 0.485 2600 > 2600 2182 1806 1481 1225 | velocity (fps)
338LM 300SMK 0.77* 2750 > 2750 2471 2209 1963 1734 | velocity (fps)
270 BRNS 0.502 2820 > 2820 2394 2009 1664 1374 | velocity (fps)


I do agree about "practical hunting ranges", however, there has been a lot of talk about long-range shooting and references to long-range hunting in this thread.

coosbaycreep
March 6, 2009, 12:15 AM
My definition of long range and your definition of long range is completely different, but yeah, I agree, it's pretty stupid trying to find a gun that would qualify as an "elephant" gun and a long range gun too.

My local bi-mart can get a ruger no.1 in .458Lott for $819, and $847 for the stainless model. I'm going to a gun show and a lot of shops next week, so there's still a good chance that I'll end up with something different, but I don't think anything short of a massively bruised shoulder or a detached retina is going to kill my fascination with big guns, so I'm probably going to get a .458.

I was watching videos of people shooting .458Lotts on youtube earlier, and about half the people had "issues" with the recoil, and the rest of them made it look as easy as shooting a shotgun. Since I'll have to order ammo for it anyway (if that's what I get), I'll order a recoil pad at the same time just in case.

H&Hhunter
March 6, 2009, 09:32 AM
I'll order a recoil pad at the same time just in case.

That is a really good idea.

mr.trooper
March 6, 2009, 10:48 AM
Thank you Zak.

Now we see that the 375 H&H is capable of bettering the 175gr 308 load with factory bullets. I think with some special purpose bullets, the 375 could make a wonderful long range gun, as well as an intermediate hunting round.

jbech123
March 6, 2009, 12:06 PM
Now we see that the 375 H&H is capable of bettering the 175gr 308 load with factory bullets.
Still a lot of recoil for target shooting though.

sernv99
March 6, 2009, 12:49 PM
I had asked a similar question a few months ago. I was told the "big game" calibers' trajectory is an arc rather than shooting flat, hence why the African big game calibers weren't used for long range shooting.

H&Hhunter
March 6, 2009, 01:14 PM
I had asked a similar question a few months ago. I was told the "big game" calibers' trajectory is an arc rather than shooting flat, hence why the African big game calibers weren't used for long range shooting.


Right, but of course that comment groups all of the African big game cartridges into the same category. African big game hunting cartridges are very diverse just like American hunting cartridges.

You simply can not say "African big game cartridge", compare the trajectory of a .600 Nitro Express firing a 900 gr bullet @ 1900 FPS and a .375H&H firing a 270 gr bullet @ nearly 2800 FPS. They are both African big game rounds and they are vastly different in their range capability.

That's like saying since the .30-30 is a lousy "long range" rifle that all American hunting rounds are lousy long range rifles.:)

Pretty silly when you think about it, huh?

sernv99
March 6, 2009, 02:59 PM
don't know, I was just told that I should look at a flatter shooting caliber rather than one that arcs ;) I have a .308 bolt gun so I'm set.

ForneyRider
March 6, 2009, 03:24 PM
375H&H and 458 Lott!!!

My dad's 375H&H is about 9.5lbs empty. It is a Win mdl 70. it actually isn't that bad with the 300gr loads. I loaded some 225gr Hornady's at 2500fps that don't kick bad at all.

Bullet selection goes way down above 30 caliber. Not sure anyone makes a match bullet in either caliber. Heck does anyone make a spitzer for .458?

Lots of solids, Woodleighs though in .375 and .448 Caliber. Love to put a couple of solids into something.

If a 900$ CZ 550 sounds expensive, way till you buy ammo. 20 rounds of premium ammo in these cartridges is 80$. Reloading is not much better, some of the bullets are $1 a piece.

Remington KS model at $2k is amazing. Awesome kevlar stock.

As far as sniper, the trajectory on these heavy weights is not conducive to flat shooting.

Gaiudo
March 6, 2009, 04:34 PM
Here's a five shot group from my .375 HH, in a Win Mod-70, at 100 yards. I got excited and flinched on that last one (dangit). I've duplicated groups like that consistently with that gun, shooting 270grain TSX over a mid-range load of R15.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb277/gaiudo1982/IMG_0002-1.jpg

With the same load, H&HHunter and I were busting a six inch steel plate at 500 yards with boring consistency (but then again, he was busting it with a 470 NE from an open sighted double rifle).

There is absolutely no chance that you can get a .375HH to perform like a 260 rem. However, it is capable of great "long-range" shooting (though even that term that's pretty relative, given some of the shooters on this board) on a practical level. Trajectory is similar to a .308, which has been used quite a bit in "sniper" roles. Just don't try and compete with Zak and his AI 260. :-)

Zak Smith
March 6, 2009, 04:38 PM
That's great shooting all around. Good job!

I've tossed around the idea of a "Practical Magnum Rifle Match", where you engage "practical" hunting-size steel targets within a typical point-blank range (ie, not a long-range match by any means) and the minimum power factor is 700+.

But maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to buy one. ;)

Gaiudo
March 7, 2009, 08:22 PM
Now THAT would be a fun match. If you ever decide to run one, let us know!

JimmAr
March 7, 2009, 10:52 PM
For .375 and .45 , I don't even know any conventional-construction bullets with this BC range.

Alot of the boys in longrangehunting board talk about lehigh..

http://lehighbullets.com/categories.asp

Zak Smith
March 7, 2009, 10:56 PM
....
For .375 and .45 , I don't even know any conventional-construction bullets with this BC range.

Javelin
March 7, 2009, 11:31 PM
There is some good information in this thread. It could be a sticky. :D

OP: if your looking for a large medium bore rifle for your closet in the off-chance that you want to take big dangerous game (or just because you want to have a big gun in your collection) then the .375 H&H Magnum is it. If you want a long range sniper rifle for elephant then your kind of out of luck as elephants/cape buffalo generally reside in heavier brush on generally flat terrain and your longest shot will be out around 50-100 yards and many times even <25 yards which is what makes it dangerous ;)

IMHO the .375 H&H is the most versitile heavy medium bore caliber that can take both deer all the way up to an elephant depending on your load and bullet. And this is important for a few reasons. The most important is so you don't have to give up function for the allure of an african gun and end up with a toy that sits in the safe minus a couple times at the range for the rest of your life.

A second is that you will probably be able to shoulder the .375 H&H without developing complete disdain for the recoil. FWIW I am a competative shooter and a .375 H&H is the largest caliber I will put to my shoulder because bad follow-through habits from big cartridge rifles are hard to break. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Tell us what you get!

:)

BusMaster007
March 7, 2009, 11:40 PM
:D
375-100 .375 Match Hybrid BoreRider
http://lehighbullets.com/products.asp?cat=13

The .375 Match Hybrid BoreRider is a premium match bullet specifically designed for long range accuracy in .375 magnums including the Cheytac and SnipeTac. The front etching band diameter is 0.373 and the rear driving band diameters are 0.375. The required barrel twist rate for stability with a muzzle velocity greater than 2,800 fps is 1:12. The bullet is machined from UNSC36000 brass. The advanced projectile design and controlled manufacturing tolerances advance the accuracy potential of these cartridges. Weight - 330 grains BC (calculated) - 0.941 Length - 2.000 Design velocity - 2,800-3,500 Material - UNSC36000 brass Sold in a packages of 50 at $65.00/box. Shipping via USPS Priorty Mail to the lower 48 states is included in the price.

http://lehighbullets.com/proddetail.asp?prod=375%2D100
http://lehighbullets.com/prodimages/375-100.jpg

Gaiudo
March 8, 2009, 12:04 AM
any mention of the ballistic coefficient on those BoreRiders?

ah, I see it now: 0.941 Anyone care to through that into a ballistic calculator? 2800FPS seems about right.

Zak Smith
March 8, 2009, 12:06 AM
BC (calculated) - 0.941 Length....

I have some of the BC 1.124 .50 cal Lehighs here. They look very nice..

BusMaster007
March 8, 2009, 06:16 AM
I tried to post this earlier, but there was a problem getting back to the site.


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN01921.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0220.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN02021.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN02171.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0218.JPG

I still have the Callahan bolt parts to install to get rid of the 'J-Lock'.
I've moved the scope to another rifle.
It's still in the 'fun' phase of deciding what to do with it. At one time I considered having the bbl. replaced with a 'target' type and converting into exactly what the OP was talking about for a different kind of rifle.
The .375 H&H was my original want for a big hunting rifle but I was interested in the ULTRA by Remington, and it is a cool gun to shoot, but the cartridge is an instant dinosaur! too bad!
I doesn't kick as hard as my Beretta 1201FPG3 12-ga. with 3" magnum slugs if you're wondering how a .375 ULTRA MAG feels to your shoulder...
There ARE projectiles in .375 that are quite heavy and have better BC than the run-of-the-mill stuff...up to 350-gr. I think, but that's a hunting bullet.
HAVE FUN whatever you decide to do!

Maverick223
March 8, 2009, 03:30 PM
I am in the same boat as you, I really want a dangerous game cartridge, without loosing all of its practicallity. I have just about decided upon a CZ 550 chambered in .458 Lott. I may have a gunsmith cut a compensator into the bbl to make it a bit more tolerable (I have yet to fire one as they, like elephants, are a bit hard to come by in my neck of the woods). I dont believe I am willing to thread he bbl for a compensator because it will mess up the lines of the rifle. I plan to load .458 Lott brass (cheaper than .458 WM) with a load comperable to 45-70 using case filler and "light" bullets. I am strongly considering using hard cast lead bullets to further cheapen the cost of shooting. With this load I think it will make a decent short range deer gun (gotta justify it somehow). I also plan to use full power loads for "concrete testing" purposes. :neener:

I also plan to buy a .338LM sniper rifle (prior to the .458) for putting lead on really close targets (1000M+). I am thinking of purchasing a Desert Tactical SRS or possibly a AR-30. It should make one heck of a long range deer gun. :D

I believe that both of these guns would be very practical if I get the opportunity to go hunting up North. The .458 would make a very good Kodiak/Polar Bear gun, and the .338 would be a fantastic long range Elk gun.

Zak Smith
March 8, 2009, 07:39 PM
Maverick223,

I have a friend with the AR-30. It's a good gun, but not one I'd want to carry around much due to its design more than anything. I have hiked all day with an AI AWSM, but generally the .338LM "sniper rifles" weigh quite a bit, especially when outfitted with an appropriate LR scope, bipod, etc. The TRG-42 is several pounds lighter than the AI. If I needed .338LM but wanted something a lot easier to carry, that TRG-S with a good muzzle brake might be it.

On the other hand, if it's just a "long range deer gun", get a 7RM or 300WM. Within 800 yards it'll be hard to notice the difference in ballistics anyway.

-z

JimmAr
March 8, 2009, 07:44 PM
Zak,

My apologies, I skim through text rather quick and ignorantly.

Busmaster, Very nice rifle.. takes a real man to shoot one off the bench continuously w/o a brake.

Maverick223
March 8, 2009, 08:30 PM
I have a friend with the AR-30. It's a good gun, but not one I'd want to carry around much due to its design more than anything. I have hiked all day with an AI AWSM, but generally the .338LM "sniper rifles" weigh quite a bit, especially when outfitted with an appropriate LR scope, bipod, etc. The TRG-42 is several pounds lighter than the AI. If I needed .338LM but wanted something a lot easier to carry, that TRG-S with a good muzzle brake might be it.
:rolleyes: Joking about the long range deer gun, not that it wouldn't fill the role. What does the AR-30 weigh? The SRS is only 11.5lbs IIRC.

Zak Smith
March 8, 2009, 08:34 PM
I think it's quoted at 12 lbs-- same weight as TRG-42 if I remember correctly.

Maverick223
March 8, 2009, 08:41 PM
Thanks for the quick reply; Zak Smith, would you mind joining me at my thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=433133

I don't want to steal the mans thread. :D

Javelin
March 8, 2009, 10:10 PM
I think it's quoted at 12 lbs-- same weight as TRG-42 if I remember correctly.

12 lbs is a heck of a lot of weight after even just a day outing. I sure would not want to carry it around.

:D

Zak Smith
March 8, 2009, 11:12 PM
That's without optics, mount, bipod, etc.

Gaiudo
March 8, 2009, 11:18 PM
I carried a 12lb M1a, with an addition five pounds of mount/scope/bipod/ammo/magazine, when I was hunting antelope in Wyoming. Let me tell ya, its gets pretty heavy. I wouldn't want to hump that around too long.

saturno_v
March 9, 2009, 05:33 PM
Coosbaycreep

I'm exactly in your same situation...last week was my 40th birthday and my wife offered to buy me an other rifle as gift...:)

I want the best compromise between range, flatness and power in a practical handy package (that means a rifle light and short enough that I can carry it on my shoulder for a hike) without breaking the bank...and I'm not interested in a rainbow trajectory like the typical African cartridges...even the .375 H&H, for what I have in mind, is not flat enough (is below a 30-06)...

For these very reasons I did exclude anything "monsters" like 416 Barrett or 50 BMG...too much money and, IMHO, they cannot be considered "shoulder fired" rifles.

My final "contenders" are the 338 RUM, The fantastic 338-378 Weatherby or (not very likely) the 378 Weatherby.

The 338 Lapua cost too much (ammo and rifles) for what it offers.

The 338-378 can throw the formidable 300 gr. Sierra bullet (SD .375, BC .768) at 3000 fps (+- 50 fps) out of the 28" Mark V barrel as witnessed personally at the range where I go.

That translates in 5995 ft/lb of muzzle energy...a value that ridiculize even the best 375 H&H loads...the Hornady Heavy Magnum (both 270 and 300 gr.) stops at circa 1000 ft/lb less.

At 500 yards, our Sierra .338 bullet (mind you...still a hunting bullet, it is a HPBT) still carries 3846 ft/lb of energy...the Woodleigh 300 gr. round nose (BC .416) would carry "only" 2549 ft/lb.......the Hornady Heavy Magnum 300 gr. H&H would be at..........1221 ft/lb with the bullet going straight into the ground.... energy wise at that distance you still have a 338 Win Mag energy (for the 338-378) Vs. a popgun (375 H&H).

Because of the inferior BC, the flatness of the trajectory is not even comparable....you do the math...

A Mark V Synthetic blued 338-378 can be had a $1200 at Impact Guns...do not even TRY to fire the thing without a muzzle break...

If you accept a less flat trajectory, you can get the .378 Weatherby (but the rifle will cost you an additional grand more).

Again, much more muzzle energy (circa 6000 ft/lb) than the 375 H&H and a "true" 30-06 trajectory (which means flat enough for anything practical)...

Ammo is expensive....more than the 375 H&H, however at that level they ALL are a reloading proposition.


"Legally", in a lot of African countries, for ridiculous laws, you could not even hunt a Lion with a 338-378....but in real life you could handly drop an elephant with it, no question about it...I do not hunt so I do not care but I know that the power is there in spades.

If you are not a careful user, barrel life can be short...it's like an exotic sport car...you need to take good care of it.

You could do still do a bit better with really niche hardware such as the .338 Excalibur, the Lazzeroni rifles, etc but the cost will skyrocket.

To me the 338-378 remain the ultimate long range/big thumper cartridge in a practical light package, cheap enough (excluding ammunition)....a real wicked round.

H&Hhunter
March 9, 2009, 07:34 PM
If you really want unaltered raw power and unnecessary recoil why not just get either a .416 Weatherby or step up to the .460 Weatherby? The .378 Weatherby is fire breathing SOB too.;)

saturno_v
March 9, 2009, 08:03 PM
H&H

The reason is flatness of trajectory.

At 500 yards, when the big super african thumpers you mentioned are at 2000 ft/lb or so (the 375 H&H just a little bit more than half of that!!!) and going straight into the ground with indifferent accuracy, the 338-378 still carries almost 4000 ft/lb of energy (in its 300 gr. sleekest hunting bullet form) and straight like a shoestring....

And you do get raw power too (6000 ft/lb at the muzzle)

Extreme power, range and accuracy...what's more to wish???

You can easily drop an African buffalo (or any of the Big 5 for that matter...) and have fun at a 1000+ yards range with the same rifle...

All in a handy 8 1/2 pounds $1200 rifle....wicked indeed....

IndianaBoy
March 9, 2009, 08:40 PM
Far be it from me to ever criticize a gun owner for having whatever they want.

And there are certainly situations where an elephant rifle, or a long range rifle.. that generate incredible hunting power or flat trajectory... at the expense of great recoil... is a desirable thing.


But I don't understand the seeking of a big cannon just for the thumping.

In that situation.. and to do it cheaply... Get the lightest 12 guage you can find that handles 3.5 inch magnums.. and put 20 slugs through it in short order.

That is the cheapest way that I can think of to get over any desire to feel recoil.

Heck do the ATF paperwork and make it a Short Barreled Shotgun.


I would probably touch off a 577 Tyrannosaur if someone handed one to me at the range, but I'm not sure I would drop the scratch for one.


Currently I am lusting after either an AR in 6.5 Grendel or a bolt gun in the most effective long range 6.5 that is reasonably affordable to handload. I thought about doing it with a 30 cal but it seems like 6.5 is the sweet spot.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't own such a rifle as a 458 Lott. But consider if you are going to want to shoot such an expensive..and sometimes painful.. rifle.

Could your money be better spent on a 6.5, some glass, and a whole pile of ammo to throw out to 1000 yards?

I fondled a CZ Safari magnum in 416 Rigby at a shop a year or two ago... and seriously considered buying it for the Hammer of Thor on deer at short range. So I know how you are feeling. I don't regret my decision, although a 375 H&H will probably enter my safe at some point in the future.

saturno_v
March 9, 2009, 09:24 PM
Indianaboy


I just want to own such a rifle...not particular use for it other than occasional extreme long range target shooting and attraction for high muzzle velocity, high ballistic efficiency and extremely flat trajectories, something I'm trying to get into it.

And I like the challenge of mastering the monster and be proficient with it.

I do not want to spend the amount of money to own a 50 BMG or a 416 Barrett, which they do not interest me anyway because of their weight and size...

Just a light rifle for amateur long range shooting and occasional hike in AK when I can be sure to blast any grizzly of any size to bruin Valhalla if the need arise (hopefully not)....I know I know, I can use my Mossy 500 stuffed with Brenneke 3" Black Magic for that too....but I want a rifle with that capability too...my 30-06 rifles would do the trick too but.....hey there is always a reason to buy a new rifle and waste money on ammunition at the range!!!

For me, the .338 Super Magnum fit the bill...

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't own such a rifle as a 458 Lott.

I have no interest for the African basketball throwers...:D:D:D

Maverick223
March 9, 2009, 11:14 PM
I have no interest for the African basketball throwers...
Mommy, can I have it? I think the .458 may get pushed back, not saying I won't get one, because at some point it'll happen; but I think if I wait a while, someone will trade/sell one at the local gunshop and I'll be able to steal it, they have little following and can be had at a fraction of original retail. I only wish I had bought a friend's Ruger .458 WM when he sold it. It would have made a good .458 Lott. :D

The .375H&H is not a bad cartridge, and doesn't have bad recoil at all. Far less than a .416 Rigby of a .458 WM IMHO. A sniper rifle cartridge it's not...but it has an allure that only comes from an African game round. The 300WM is flat and relatively cheap to shoot, but definitely not a African game cartridge. I am afraid that you won't find a African gun with long range accuracy simply because it's not needed. The average shot at dangerous game is 75yds or less and you really don't need a good BC to achieve that. Most African cartridges are the larger equivalent of a .45ACP...it isn't pretty, or fast, or terribly accurate...but it holds a reputation for getting the job done in short order. ;)

Maverick223
March 9, 2009, 11:23 PM
You can easily drop an African buffalo (or any of the Big 5 for that matter...)
I don't know for sure, but I think the animal might notice the difference :D. On a more serious note I wouldn't dream of taking such a rifle to Africa, there is too great a chance that a second shot may be required + the round swell in the chamber = really bad day. That is why most big game cartridges have a taper, simply more reliable extraction. Of course this would be of little concern if you had a 338-378 in a double rifle :neener: :confused: :rolleyes:.

saturno_v
March 10, 2009, 12:22 AM
I don't know for sure, but I think the animal might notice the difference . On a more serious note I wouldn't dream of taking such a rifle to Africa, there is too great a chance that a second shot may be required + the round swell in the chamber = really bad day. That is why most big game cartridges have a taper, simply more reliable extraction. Of course this would be of little concern if you had a 338-378 in a double rifle .

In Africa you should lower a bit the powder charge of a 338-378 to avoid overpressure on very hot days...

And I do not think any animal, with the right bullet construction and the right shot placement would be able to notice the difference between a 338-375 and other African thumpers...the 300 gr bullets have an amazing SD and the energy level exceed many of these African cartridges...for example you can significantly exceed the muzzle energy of a 458 Lott.

Maverick223
March 10, 2009, 12:36 AM
In Africa you should lower a bit the powder charge of a 338-378 to avoid overpressure on very hot days...
Best to stick to that 338-378 double. What we need is a 50BMG in a double rifle...and a jeep to mount it on:D

Blacksmoke
March 10, 2009, 01:14 AM
I recently sold my .375 H&H Remington 700. There are 250 grain spire point factory loads. Federal makes them. My favorite for longer ranges was a handload- 300 grain Hornady boat tail soft spire point over 66.5 grains of IMR 4064. They really sail.

My general experience was the .375 with round nose 300 grain factory ammo had a trajectory about like a .30-06 with 220 grain round nose ammo. The pointy bullet makes a big difference.

I really liked the 300 grain BTSP relative stability in cross winds. This is within 500 yards and more like 400+.

The recoil never bothered me. The rifle with a scope is heavy to carry for a long day up and down mountain trails. It is also really big and clumsy compared to the short magnum cartridge rifles nowadays.

My experience with elk was they go down and stay down wherever they were hit.

Maverick223
March 10, 2009, 09:14 AM
My favorite for longer ranges was a handload- 300 grain Hornady boat tail soft spire point over 66.5 grains of IMR 4064. They really sail.
Didn't realize that you could get good spitzers (better than something like silvertips) in the .375H&H. This bullet in a good bolt gun looks like a winner for the OP. It isn't a sniper rifle, but if it can match the ballistics of 30-06 with a bullet with a BC better than a rock, it'll do well. Might I suggest a CZ 550 to go along with it, they are relatively cheap, reliable (except for stocks cracking in .458Lott), seem to have a good finish (not like a H&H, but not bad), and they fit me well.
My experience with elk was they go down and stay down wherever they were hit.
Yeah, from my experience with the .375H&H, it tends to have that effect.

Gaiudo
March 10, 2009, 12:28 PM
My experience with elk was they go down and stay down wherever they were hit.

I'll third that.

Maverick223
March 10, 2009, 02:39 PM
My experience with elk was they go down and stay down wherever they were hit.
I'll third that.
:eek: Sometimes they fall over dead after looking at the rifle. :D

H&Hhunter
March 10, 2009, 04:01 PM
I've never seen any animals fall over dead from mere sight of the perceived evil and often touted .375H&H. But I have seen more than one "rifleman" work themselves into frothing puddle of nerves over the purported deadly and apparently unrecoverable recoil of this gentlemanly old round.;)

t165
March 11, 2009, 05:17 AM
Here are three of my bigger Boomers.

(1) CZ American 458 Lott

(2) Whitworth 375 H&H

(3) Weatherby ClassicMark .340 WM

The 340 Weatherby and 375 H&H behave much the same. The 458 Lott is a whole lot more of everything.

Maverick223
March 11, 2009, 09:15 AM
Welcome to THR, t...

Here are three of my bigger Boomers.

(1) CZ American 458 Lott
Sexy...we wantee...me wantee now. :D

H&Hhunter
March 11, 2009, 01:35 PM
I had a CZ 550 in .458 Lott. It had feeding problems, severe feeding problems and they are very prone to stock splitting. They need some major stock work to make them hang together for any serious shooting. They also need a safety modification in the heavier calibers. The safeties are prone to flipping on in recoil. That little issue will cost somebody their life at some point.

Besides that it was decent rifle for the money.

Maverick223
March 11, 2009, 02:24 PM
I had a CZ 550 in .458 Lott. It had feeding problems, severe feeding problems and they are very prone to stock splitting. They need some major stock work to make them hang together for any serious shooting. They also need a safety modification in the heavier calibers. The safeties are prone to flipping on in recoil. That little issue will cost somebody their life at some point.
Good to know, I had heard about the stock splitting issues (corrected by properly bedding the stock, or shooting the wee .458WM instead :D ). Looking at them for my first African game rifle, may have to keep on looking...I don't plan to purchase real soon anyways.

jem375
March 11, 2009, 02:43 PM
Why not just buy a 375 Ruger or a 375 JDJ???.... they are fairly close to the 375 H&H, in fact the 375 Ruger is damn close. I have the 375 JDJ in both rifle and pistol and it is plenty stout enough to take any game animal in the world. Of course my JDJ's are single shot T/C's

t165
March 12, 2009, 06:07 AM
Thanks Maverick223. I am at that point in life where I can afford nice stuff but seem to be too busy to enjoy them. My 14 year old son has a gun collection of really nice stuff he will inherit from me which would enable him to shoot/hunt with a different firearm over summer vacation without every shooting the same one twice. Unfortunately, he is only interested in shooting firearms while playing video games. If I would have been so lucky at 14.

Maverick223
March 12, 2009, 09:59 AM
Thanks Maverick223. I am at that point in life where I can afford nice stuff but seem to be too busy to enjoy them. My 14 year old son has a gun collection of really nice stuff he will inherit from me which would enable him to shoot/hunt with a different firearm over summer vacation without every shooting the same one twice. Unfortunately, he is only interested in shooting firearms while playing video games. If I would have been so lucky at 14.

Will you adopt me? :D I am at the point in life where I cannot afford all of the nice stuff I want, and have no time to enjoy it. :banghead:

t165
March 14, 2009, 03:45 AM
Kind of like most all the guys driving new Corvettes have gray hair. I've had to cut back on buying toys within the last year and I have discovered my firearm addiction was out of control. :) I've invested in several semi-automatics just in case firearm laws start going backward. I'm mostly a bolt guy. After reflecting on my comments about my son's video game addiction I thought how he would feel if the liberals tried to take his digital weapons from him and then it hit me...that has actually been tried hasn't it. I seem to remember a few years back some talk on the talking heads news shows where a group was citing this and crying about that and how our children were going to grow up to be serial killers if they continue using digital weapons to frag the digital bad guys. I can just hear some liberal lawyer now...your honor, the three headed fang toothed sceptar from planet kalipso did not deserve to be shot by little Johnny and his digital pistol gripped ak47 loaded with hollowpoint bullets in a horrible 30 round magazine even if he was defending the planet from domination by these aliens. :rolleyes:

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