looks like the first Kel-Tec RFB in 7.62x51/.308 has hit the market


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everallm
March 5, 2009, 04:02 PM
Just saw this pop up on Gunbroker

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124332594

Looks like they're finally here


M'mmmmmm

7.62x51 / .308
18" barrel
26" overall length
FAL metric mags
Bullpup

Me wanty and need tax refund NOW.....

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/rfb-18.jpg

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Bigfoot
March 5, 2009, 04:37 PM
If he has it in his hands why did he mistakenly post a picture of the Target version?

everallm
March 5, 2009, 04:59 PM
Standard publicity shot, they've just copied and added the company name to.

Sam Adams
March 5, 2009, 05:08 PM
$1,899, what a bargain - NOT!

everallm
March 5, 2009, 05:28 PM
Classic rape the market for profit, there's always going to be someone who wants to be the first owner of the shiny new toy........

Not that we haven't seen the market being priced ridiculously recently..:rolleyes:

KBintheSLC
March 5, 2009, 05:30 PM
$1,899, what a bargain - NOT!

I almost LOL'ed when I saw that. Don't get me wrong, I have 3 KT's and love 'em, but for that price, I'll take an M1A any day of the week.

gvnwst
March 5, 2009, 05:31 PM
If he has it in his hands why did he mistakenly post a picture of the Target version?

1+
I wonder about this.....if he didn't want to take it out of the box, then fine. But he could have taken the time, for such a wonderful gun, i mean...:D

everallm
March 5, 2009, 05:58 PM
KB

Have you seen the prices of M1A's on Gunbroker recently.....:what:

leadcounsel
March 5, 2009, 06:00 PM
I call BS until I see an actual picture.

And I bet they come down to around the $1500 mark.

Almond27
March 5, 2009, 06:01 PM
One word for this rifle UGLY

everallm
March 5, 2009, 07:37 PM
Second one just popped up on Guns America

http://www.gunsamerica.com/952980911/Guns/Rifles/Kel-Tec-Rifles/RFB_30.htm

They're asking $1999.00.......:rolleyes:

highorder
March 5, 2009, 07:44 PM
I've never fired a bullpup in 7.62 Nato.

How bad is the muzzle that close to your face?

Shear_stress
March 5, 2009, 07:59 PM
How bad is the muzzle that close to your face?

Probably bad enough to singe your beard into a reverse goatee.

Bigfoot
March 5, 2009, 08:18 PM
Ok Everallm I believe it now. Kel-Tec has done some changes to it since the prototype and I can spot some of them on the second one that you linked.

Well well, it's finally out. :)

I'll bet the muzzle blast from that 18" barrel close to your face would be considerable. I'd prefer the 24" Sporter barreled one myself.

Cannonball888
March 5, 2009, 08:33 PM
So, by "standard FAL" magaziness, do they mean metric or inch?

Bigfoot
March 5, 2009, 08:37 PM
Metric.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 5, 2009, 08:45 PM
Hopefully metric.

Hey the one on gunsamerica can be *purchased* for $2K.

Unlike the one on gunbroker, which will only go up and up until the auction ends.

Cannonball888
March 5, 2009, 08:59 PM
I found the ejection method unique. Is there any other rifle that does this?



http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/rfb-cross-view.jpg

Matrix187
March 5, 2009, 09:04 PM
That's just a feature used to shoot burning shells down peoples shirts..

Bigfoot
March 5, 2009, 09:23 PM
I found the ejection method unique. Is there any other rifle that does this?

FN FS2000 in 5.56. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbit-R3FCvY

MatthewVanitas
March 5, 2009, 09:29 PM
Whelp, it's been photographed on gray carpet, so it must truly exist:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/5511/952980911/pop_wm_1230767.jpg

Maverick223
March 5, 2009, 09:45 PM
Note the modification that KT made to the lower reciever in the last photo...they got rid of the handy-dandy little thumbhole (its a comfortable way to grip the little pups). They must have had problems with breakage in this area. Think that KT waited too long (formerly wanted the target model), I have recently decided that I want more bang 4 the buck, and therefore have bout decided on the Desert Tactical SRS in .338 Lapua. You have to admit it's got alot of bang, if I can only afford to shoot it. :uhoh:

Maverick223
March 5, 2009, 09:50 PM
Just thought about something, it better be reliable...it would be hell to clear a jam or pretty much any failure. :D

RevolvingCylinder
March 7, 2009, 12:14 AM
I can't even find the SU-16s anywhere in stock(I get the "good luck finding 'em" response to my inquiries) so it will be some time before I ever see one of these.

Javelin
March 7, 2009, 12:26 AM
Wonder if it suppresses well as there would be no over gas pressure to hit you in the face. But cycling might be an issue.

everallm
March 7, 2009, 07:27 AM
It has a adjustable gas systen and there a several video's/pics of the prototypes out there with a suppressor.

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
March 7, 2009, 03:46 PM
That is a thing of beauty, but the price is not worth it.:eek:
I have to wipe the drool off my keyboard every time i see a picture of one of these.:o

markfh
March 7, 2009, 11:49 PM
Yeah, the thing is ugly and it sure isn't cheap but as I was shooting one of my FAL's today I couldn't help thinking boy it'll be great to have that little RFB.

I will have one soon. :neener:

280shooter
March 8, 2009, 12:57 AM
held one today at a gun show.. sure didnt do a thing for me,, ugly..nope not somethig im interested in,

Hostile Amish
March 8, 2009, 01:55 AM
What a disgusting stock, pistol grip, trigger, and price.

SwearNoAllegiance
March 8, 2009, 03:00 AM
This rifle is just how I like it: Ugly, yet expensive.

I'd hit that if I could afford it.

MatthewVanitas
March 8, 2009, 03:25 AM
I'm somewhat surprised they made a .308 version before a .223 version, especially as they had a .223 PDW worked up back in the 1990s.

Then again, there are a handful of .223 bullpups on the market, but really no .308s, so maybe they just wanted to stand out there.

If this version sells well, I'd really like to see a nice tiny .223 version come out soon. Though I expect that they'll be hard pressed to meet demand for the RFB well into next year.

Here's what the older .223 PDW looked like. Move the charging handle to the side, give it the forward brass ejection and a good mounting system for optics up top, and I'm sold. Until then I'll probably just buy an AUG once the new Steyrs come down from the current $2400 "gotta be the first on my block" price.

.223 KT bullpup from the 1990s:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=94073&d=1236496985

(from http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn75-e.htm)

Girodin
March 8, 2009, 07:40 AM
I enjoy people claiming that the price is not worth it when we have no idea how the production versions will preform. Obviously the initial price is high and some one with an a little patience will be able to buy it hundreds of dollars cheaper. Aside from that I dont think one can say what the value of the RFB is yet. It would be nice to know the following (and I am eager for the reports):

Fit and Finish: unless it is notably better than every other Kel tec product I have owned or handled it is in no way worth 1k+.

Accuracy: Kel Tec's as a whole are not the most accurate guns. It is going to need to be better than some of the SU 16s I have seen. It really neads at a minimum to be in the same ball park as the other big name .308 semis like the FAL, G3 platforms, etc. If the target model is going to sell well it needs to be on par with an AR.

Reliability: I dont want to get into the whole deabte over how reliable kel tecs are or are not but I will say this, for 1K+ the RFB will need to be good to go from the factory. Fluff and Buffs and return trips to the facotry are okay for a $200 pistol not a something in the price range of the RFB. Because kel tec already has a certain stigma, deserved or not, the intial reports are going to need to be very postive in respect to reliability.

The trigger: The RFB is supposed to have a trigger much better than other bullpups. This is a big part of my interest. I like bullpups and forward and downward ejction has solved one major drawback. The poor trigger is my biggest problem with them now. If the RFB trigger is as good as reports say it will be something unique and special.

In the end though the RFB is worth what someone will pay for it. SO while it might be true to say it is not worth whatever price to you if they are selling for that they are infact worth it. Take for example the 800 wars sales. Crazy to me but aparently they were worth that to someone.

Furthermore, I will submit that totaly subjective evaluations such as it being ugly are hardly arguements against it. Nor are they iron clad facts as some people seem to think. Ugly to one is gorgeous to another. As for me I am more utlitarian in my tastes. I will purchasre or pass on the RFB based on its performance. On paper it is an attractive weapon. What that translates into in the real world is yet to be seen.

everallm
March 8, 2009, 08:55 AM
"The price is outrageous !!!!!"

Have people actully been looking at the prices on Gunbroker lately?

Prices for the FS2000, DSA FAL and M1A for example?

RevolvingCylinder
March 8, 2009, 02:14 PM
What's the MSRP? Oh that's right, there isn't one right now. I guess we're all going to assume the earliest examples on an auction site will be the going price.

HB
March 8, 2009, 02:34 PM
That's just a feature used to shoot burning shells down peoples shirts..

I don't know, I would be more worried about the 168 grain bullets flying at 2,600 fps than a the shells.... The thing ejects forwards! Reloaders will not like this one, having to walk downrange to find their shells and all

HB

Girodin
March 8, 2009, 04:41 PM
What's the MSRP? Oh that's right, there isn't one right now.

Actualy it has been set at $1800 for a long time. That said the kel tec MSRPs are never even close to what they sell for.

Reloaders will not like this one, having to walk downrange to find their shells and all


I'll take a nice pile right infront of me over mangled brass shot 15 yards + to the side of me any day. They dont come flying out of the front.

everallm
March 8, 2009, 07:07 PM
Looks like a couple of folks on AR15 have them actually in their hands

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=43

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 8, 2009, 08:58 PM
Reloaders will not like this one, having to walk downrange to find their shells and all

Yeah, I think it'd be nice to simply put a box under the ejection port toward the front of the bench to capture them all.

TheDriver
March 8, 2009, 09:28 PM
I want one. Hopefully this release will allow Keltec to expand a bit so they can start to meet demand on Sub 2000s and SUs.

Girodin
March 9, 2009, 01:13 PM
Nice to read that the trigger feels good. I really want to hear about accuracy. I want RFB to be as good as the hype. I would appreciate links to range reports if anyone finds them.

Gelgoog
March 9, 2009, 01:47 PM
yea, i totally would have bought their .223 PDW if they had released that. much cooler looking then the .308 version

LoneCoon
March 9, 2009, 02:22 PM
I'd be more happy to see this in 7.62x39 and accept AK mags.

KBintheSLC
March 9, 2009, 06:05 PM
Have you seen the prices of M1A's on Gunbroker recently

I haven't... I am scared to check too.

I saw one at the local shop for $1999 a couple of weeks ago. The same gun was $1600 a few months ago.

non-THR content

Though morbidly demeaning to women, I couldn't help but to LOL.

junyo
March 9, 2009, 08:13 PM
According to people in the know, Kel-tec got the first shipment out the door on 2/27. Geared up for 1,000 units a month from here out. Trying to get as many as possible on the market in case of a AWB.

Mr. Alloy
March 11, 2009, 12:15 PM
Any range reports on this yet?

I'd also love to see some more detailed pictures than we've seen so far.

The Wiry Irishman
March 11, 2009, 05:11 PM
I played with them at SHOT, they feel rock solid, and the trigger is truly amazing. Much better than my DSA FAL with their factory trigger job.

I overheard the KT guy telling a dealer/distributor that was interested in ordering some that dealer price would be about 1400.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 11, 2009, 05:54 PM
I played with them at SHOT, they feel rock solid, and the trigger is truly amazing. Much better than my DSA FAL with their factory trigger job.

Very interesting.... *SOMEBODY* on here needs to be a guinea pig! :p

everallm
March 21, 2009, 08:07 AM
First write up I have seen so far on the FALFiles.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257845&highlight=rfb

Balzac72
Member

FALaholic # 7270

Old Post March 20, 2009 20:44 Post #1

I figured that with my recent purchase, I should do a small review for FalFiles. It's not going to be too extensive, but should give any prospective buyers an idea of what they're in for.

First off, the rifle is compact, very compact. I put a pic of me holding it so you can see the scale of it compared to me. I'm about 6'2" This bullpup has also been outfitted with an aftermarket forward grip, which in my opinion is absolutely necessary for faster follow up shots and generally being content with controlling it. Although to be quite honest, you can shoot the rifle with one arm, as most of the weight is right over or behind your controlling arm.

The first bit of praise goes to the RFB's trigger, which feels EXTREMELY light, although it breaks at about 6lbs. It isn't a mushy feeling FS2000 type, more more like an AR15, although you can feel the plastic components a bit. But IMO, this rifle should be the model for all future bullpup triggers. It's fantastic!

The rifle handles quite well also. Although in quick mag changes, you will definitely be fumbling a bit with the rifle compared to an AR15. I had to pull the rifle off shoulder, twist the mag towards me, hit the release to drop the empty, then move a fresh mag into place. With more practice, I'm sure I'll speed up, but I'm not quite sure how I'll be able to maintain the barrel and my eyes on target.

Ergonomics are also outstanding. There's not much to say that isn't good, so I'll just give you the one bit of bad. The rear of the stock tended to come off my shoulder and move up a bit, which could bring an optic into contact with your eye. Ask me how I know! But the recoil was manageable and not too stout.

You do know you're shooting a 7.62, but the gun never really jumps too terribly. I was able to put a full mag down range on iron plates in about 30 seconds with all but 3 hitting the plates.

The optic I used was a Leupold 1-3x CQ/B, which I also believe to be perfect for this setup. I had the rifle at 1x for most of the shooting session and found follow up shots were much quicker. At about 50 yards, the rifle after firing would come off target about 4" up and 5" right and quickly settled back in, due to the size and controllability of the bullpup design. I believe a compensator would also make a big difference in keeping on target. But again, being that this is a bullpup design, I would want a MB to divert gases forward, since the end of the barrel is pretty close to your face.

The RFB also uses FAL mags which is nice since most of us have a bunch. I had no failures to feed or any other problems with the mags or rifle.

Accuracy testing wasn't done yet, I didn't use a bench at all. But again, at 50 yards, at 3x on the scope, I was hitting shotgun casings. I believe this will make a relatively accurate gun once I do some accuracy testing on it.

Some of the interesting features are that the gun does not throw the brass, it has controlled extraction and throws the casings down a tube above the barrel ala FS2000. This also makes for a bit of a problem. After firing your last round, the bolt will retain the last fired brass and could appear to be a live case upon quick inspection. A friend pointed this out to me and caught me a bit embarrassed when I tabled the rifle after shooting it.

Also, the sheet metal above the barrel tends to heat up slightly after 2 mags and if it weren't 35 degrees and windy, I think the rifle can get a bit toasty. But thats my speculation, not confirmed fact.

If you guys are able to get your hands on one, this is a VERY nice rifle, made much better than the Kel Tec reputation that most of us think about. I personally believe it's worth at least the MSRP and if you can grab one at that price, buy two! I've seen the Gunbroker gun going steadily higher and now I know why - this rifle is truly a work of art.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f107/Fizgig44/IMG00028-1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f107/Fizgig44/IMG00527-1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f107/Fizgig44/IMG00528-1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f107/Fizgig44/IMG00529-1.jpg

Mr. Alloy
March 21, 2009, 10:27 AM
Sounds excellent. Maybe in a year or so when it's actually at msrp ill get my hands on one. Very exciting rifle.

Also, can you repost the pictures mentioned in the review? Thanks!

HorseSoldier
March 21, 2009, 12:06 PM
That thing really is impressively compact.

Maverick223
March 21, 2009, 02:24 PM
I have a quick question, it the bulge in the bbl threaded to change the bbl to the other lengths (assuming that they become available). I assumed that the bbl was rather difficult, however if this is the case I may .have been incorrect on that assumption. Glad to see it operates well, but I will have to wait a while for this gun as its position has been filled. :D

Mr. Alloy
March 21, 2009, 03:29 PM
The threads are for affixing either a bipod or bayonet lug.

everallm
March 21, 2009, 04:13 PM
Kel-Tec did post that they made changes to the barrel assembly so that a gunsmith or competent end user can swap barrels. Barrels will come as a kit with the necessary go no-go gauges etc.

It is NOT a QD setup such as the Robinson Arms XCR.

Cannonball888
March 21, 2009, 10:55 PM
Insane.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124393095

Gord
March 21, 2009, 11:06 PM
Whoa, that's ridiculously compact. I'm still not sold on the thing - Kel-Tec's reputation being what it is, and the general assumptions one might make about a mostly-polymer .308 - but if I ever get my hands on one and it doesn't squeak like a Hi-Point carbine, I'm gonna want one pretty damned badly.

'course, if .308 doesn't come down in price I may as well just buy a .50...

Prince Yamato
March 22, 2009, 12:20 AM
Sold for $2,925.

Hooray! Somebody just payed about $2300 too much! Seriously, it looks nice, but it's like a $600 rifle sold for 4x the price.

Mr. Alloy
March 22, 2009, 03:17 AM
Seriously, it looks nice, but it's like a $600 rifle sold for 4x the price.

It's new technology (well, kind of), and people will also pay a lot for a low serial number. But $600, really? I'd pay at least as much for one of these as for an AR-10 or the like, if it holds up as well.

Also, does anyone know what the twist rate is in the 18''? And if you know, for the other planned models?

JWF III
March 22, 2009, 06:46 AM
I want, I want really bad...Sold for $2,925. , but not at that price.

For $3k I'd rather pic up an old gun that will continue to go up in value, even if it is just keeping up with inflation. A $3k RFB will be worth $1500 in a couple years (unless BHO gets his way), or whenever they get caught up with orders and start producing enough to sit in racks at the stores.

Wyman

everallm
March 22, 2009, 08:46 AM
Add together, "I want one of the first ones", with the current frenzy driving firearms ourchases and the price is perfectly on track.

Have you seen the prices for new, magazine fed, .308, semi-auto's on GB recently?

Maverick223
March 22, 2009, 10:25 AM
The threads are for affixing either a bipod or bayonet lug.
Thanks...
Sold for $2,925.
That thing is ridiculously overpriced!

RedAlert
March 22, 2009, 11:27 AM
Another very nice feature of the forward ejection of the brass is that it makes it a prime candidate as an ambidextrous weapon. No worry of brass interfering with or distracting the shooter as it ejects to one side or the other.

The brass, in videos, doesn't appear to exit with much velocity, so that would aid in collection as it all just falls to the side.

I like the concept and it sure makes sense for CQB weapon and still has a long enough barrel to allow decent accuracy further down range.

Ralph

MatthewVanitas
March 22, 2009, 11:48 AM
That thing is ridiculously overpriced!

It's not "priced" at $2,900. Nobody expects anyone to pay anywhere near that much once the supply gets flowing, probably closer to $1300.

The $2,900 GB price just means that someone, somewhere in a country of 300 million people is willing to pay double just to get it a few weeks before his buddies. I'd imagine it's probably some wealthy guy who pulls in $3000 in a matter of days, so to him it's like buying a $250 S&W Model 10 is to us.

When these drop down to $1300 I'd say that'd be a pretty reasonable price. Supposedly they're built far better than KT's cheaper products, and it has basically no competitors on the market. It's not like there are a ton of .308 bullpups to choose from, and the only new-production centrefire bullpups available at all are even more expensive.

Dlc43
March 22, 2009, 12:56 PM
Wow!
I just can't wrap my head around having an 18 inch barreled .308 going off that close to my face.
I'm thinking it might turn me into a flincher.
My personal opinion is that they are ugly as well but the muzzle blast in my face would be the biggest downer for me.

Maverick223
March 22, 2009, 01:09 PM
It's not "priced" at $2,900. Nobody expects anyone to pay anywhere near that much once the supply gets flowing, probably closer to $1300.
Now at that price I might give it some consideration. We shall see...

everallm
March 22, 2009, 03:02 PM
I just can't wrap my head around having an 18 inch barreled .308 going off that close to my face.

As opposed to say a bolt action with the chamber even closer and in a direct line with your right eye ball.......:D

benEzra
March 22, 2009, 03:31 PM
I just can't wrap my head around having an 18 inch barreled .308 going off that close to my face.
I'm thinking it might turn me into a flincher.
There are also 24" and 32" barreled versions coming.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Kel-tec_RFB.jpg

Velocities out of the 32" barrel are pretty remarkable for a .308, from what I've read.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 22, 2009, 05:12 PM
My personal opinion is that they are ugly as well but the muzzle blast in my face would be the biggest downer for me.

Love to hear these comments; will make it possible for me to get one maybe, within a year! Shhh, don't tell him about the 24" and 32"! :p

MatthewVanitas
March 22, 2009, 06:18 PM
I just can't wrap my head around having an 18 inch barreled .308 going off that close to my face.

On the bright side, since the "ejection port" is out the front of the rifle, the port is actually further from your ear than it would be on a FAL or M14.

EdLaver
March 22, 2009, 06:42 PM
Dammit I thought I was finish buying rifles...oh well hopefully I can get my hands on one before the end of the year. I already spent most of my tax return on ammo :(

fwm
March 22, 2009, 07:18 PM
I bought one last week for $1400.00. Well I ordered and prepaid for one. The dealer heard from his supplier and expects it in a couple of weeks. I'm patient, we'll see.

I asked what the dealer wanted for it, as he had already ordered one for himself and he said $1800. I said that is about $300 to much and he immediately countered with $1400, which I accepted.

He said his supplier quoted him a firm price of $1200.

messerist
March 22, 2009, 07:53 PM
OK! I'll be the "guinea pig." Someone buy me one and I'll test the bejeezus out of it!:D

memphisjim
March 23, 2009, 03:25 AM
since nobody has said it i think its so ugly its cool and i like how it just stands on its end like that
would look great on my mantle or center piece for coffee table
great conversation piece ;)

LightningCrash
March 23, 2009, 10:08 AM
The old thread was on the first page of Google's search results for 'kel-tec rfb'.

Dlc43
March 23, 2009, 10:28 AM
As opposed to say a bolt action with the chamber even closer and in a direct line with your right eye ball.......

Yes but the hole thingy that goes boom and flashes is way out in front of my face which makes it less likely to cause flinching.
Also isn't the chamber on that right next to your head?
Not that I worry about that much.
I did look at one of those 50 BMG type guns once though that had the bolt and buttplate as one piece and the thought of that 50 caliber going off in a chamber right next to my head did un-nerve me a bit.
The 32 inch barrel on that might be interesting because of increased velocity but I still think I'd rather have a 300 mag bolt action with a bull barrel if I was going that route and interested in increased velocity.
I had a .308 scout rifle once that had an 18 inch barrell and the muzzle blast on that even being a bolt gun was pretty intimidating.
I just think it would be a little uncomfortable having that much energy going off right in front of your face.
I'm not knocking the gun, there is a certain cool factor to it but I think I'll stick to my Garand or M1a for a semi auto .308

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 23, 2009, 10:34 AM
I think if I got a 24" bbl RFB in .260 Rem, and a Boberg XR9, I could die happy. Wait, and a Harley!

memphisjim
March 23, 2009, 01:13 PM
how long would it take a proficient owner to swap from a 18 to 32 inch barrel?

Wanta B
March 23, 2009, 01:30 PM
Being the proud owner of 6 18 1/2" barreled Marlin Guide Guns,four 45-70s one 450 Marlin and one 458x2" American(actualy 2 1/8") and an 1895SDT 45/70 with a 16 1/4" barrel...muzzle blast should be no problem.

Wanta B

alistaire
March 23, 2009, 01:45 PM
That's funny, it shoots a larger cartridge than the FS2000 and weighs 1 pound less...

Girodin
March 23, 2009, 01:51 PM
I also figure that the muzzle blast cannot be too bad compaired to some of uber hot hand loads one of guys I go shooting with is fond of loading up for our snub nose magnums. Am I mistaken in thinking that a sane .308 load will not rival those? That said a .30 cal suppressor is on my short list of future aquisitions anyhow.

I am more concerned with reliability and accuracy. If its not rock solid on the first and respectable on the second then the rifle loses its appeal to me.

Girodin
March 23, 2009, 01:53 PM
That's funny, it shoots a larger cartridge than the FS2000 and weighs 1 pound less...

Are you comparing the FS2000 with an optic to the railed no optic, no irons, RFB or are you comparing a railed FS2000 sans optic?

Tennesseean
March 23, 2009, 02:00 PM
since nobody has said it i think its so ugly its cool and i like how it just stands on its end like that
would look great on my mantle or center piece for coffee table
great conversation piece

Yeah, wire it up and make it into a lamp!

:D

markfh
March 23, 2009, 03:14 PM
I want one but I'm afraid the game they appear to be playing (where are the rest of them?) to hype up the gun just might make them so expensive I'll probably buy another FAL instead. Or bho might get his ban in before they can really ramp up production. :uhoh:

t165
March 24, 2009, 04:52 AM
Maybe I'm getting old and set in my ways but NO! Just seems something obtuse about this firearm. I love kel-tec and most of their firearms fill a niche but this design has flaws written all over it. I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night and I could be wrong! ;)

everallm
March 24, 2009, 06:31 AM
t165,

What glaringly obvious flaws are you seeing?

Maverick223
March 24, 2009, 08:08 AM
What glaringly obvious flaws are you seeing?
About the only flaw I see (other than the .308 too close to the face argument, not too big of a deal for me) is the difficulty in clearing a jam. I don't know for a fact (as I have yet to fondle one) but it seems that the gun must be broken down to clear a jam, and that could be a big problem depending upon: reliability, intended use, and difficulty of breaking down (from what I have seen not too bad, looks to be on par with a AR). You must also remember that the FS2000 (as well as others) has the same issue, so I do not think it was an oversight or an overall poor design (although not necessary ideal). One thing I am sure of is that someone will argue with me (from either side, probably both) until they are blue in the face. :neener:

everallm
March 24, 2009, 08:38 AM
This is why I asked the question....:D

Kel-Tec started off with a ground up bullpup design back in the early 90's with the SUB-16 and have been working on the design since so I imagine they've had time to worry out the kinks.

The action is a short stroke piston with variable manual gas regulation so nothing spooky or worrisome there.
Bullpup designs are a known quantity and used in a dozen plus different weapons
Magazines are FAL so no concerns there
The no return, forward ejection system is not proprietary and is not on the top areas of concern for the FS2000.
It's leftie friendly, not a concern for me but a boon for our sinister friends.....:evil:
The trigger mechanism ( a traditional moan for bullpups) has apparently been made real user friendly.

The one area that is an inherent feature and a perceptual but not actual risk is that when the last round has been fired, the last, empty case needs to be manually ejected if you want to fully clear the weapon.

Mr. Alloy
March 24, 2009, 12:56 PM
That seems totally reasonable to me. Either you leave a round in the tube, or you get rid of the last round hold open. I'd much rather have the last round hold open, and then rack it when I'm done shooting.

Maverick223
March 24, 2009, 06:20 PM
and then rack it when I'm done shooting.
Didn't realize it was that easy...nice to know. It would be a bit annoying to have that extra round left in the ejector. Also, at $1300.00 it doesn't seem to be a horrible deal either (though I wouldn't pay what many ask).

gvnwst
March 24, 2009, 06:23 PM
I think if I got a 24" bbl RFB in .260 Rem, and a Boberg XR9
26" barrel on the RFB, and the XR9 in 10mm auto. Then i agree totally:D:D:D

Mr. Alloy
April 13, 2009, 04:06 PM
And this is what I came up with.

A new, shmancy thumbhole stock for aesthetics and to shield the mag release, plus hide all those ugly screws somehow (other manufacturers manage). Give it a 20 inch bull barrel without gaining length by removing the flash hider. Then, throw on an ACOG or similar to give it some reach. I call it the RFB-CT (compact tactical, I know, original). You listening, Kel Tec? :rolleyes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/nalloy/creepy/rfb-mod2.jpg

Now I just have to come up with a good bipod mounting solution.

Maverick223
April 13, 2009, 04:21 PM
Now I just have to come up with a good bipod mounting solution.
A barrel mount at the muzzle should be quite accurate...:D Oh, and the thumbhole won't fly as it kills the ambidexterity (<- Original Word ;) )of the weapon. On a more serious note what about a sling swivel for the bipod?

Mr. Alloy
April 13, 2009, 04:38 PM
If the thumbhole is big enough- think Cx4. I like the swivel stud idea, but it'd have to be retractable so you could still hold the grip when not using a bipod. Maybe it could be spring loaded in the retracted position with a button to push it out to the attachment position.

Stew4570
April 13, 2009, 05:22 PM
With that price its making the Springfield M1A Super Match look better and better. I have always wanted one. Tough choice. I guess I will wait for the accuracy reviews to come out.

Maverick223
April 13, 2009, 05:27 PM
I guess I will wait for the accuracy reviews to come out.
Wise decisions, I heard that it (Target Version) was supposed to give the PSG-1 a run for its money...I can't fathom that happening.

Eightball
April 13, 2009, 07:11 PM
If it were closer to $1500, I could probably afford to take a look; I've had my eye on these for a while, and kind of want one.....but since it was announced and been put into production, I'm now a broke college student who already has an AR15 to feed. :(

I'll tell you something that could be cool---a .22 kit for that thing.

Deer Hunter
April 13, 2009, 07:16 PM
I wonder what the accuracy is like on these things?

Corbin
May 19, 2009, 09:49 PM
Hi guys.
As a lefty and a bullpup fan, I'm really looking forward to getting one of these. Preferably in the 24" barreled model. MI has a stupid law that anything under 30" overall has to be registered as a handgun. I'd rather not have my rifle registered as a handgun. With the Sporter version being 32" OAL, I'd be good.

Did you guys see this auction selling one for $10,000.00? :what:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/984223394/Guns/Rifles/Kel-Tec-Rifles/NEW_IN_BOX_KEL_TEC_RFB_308_BULLPUP_RIFLE_W_18_BARREL.htm

Is he insane?!

Maverick223
May 19, 2009, 10:22 PM
Is he insane?!
That guy has gone loopy...I wouldn't even consider the 18" version anyway, but I believe the 24" barrel has been scraped as it is no longer on KTs website. Wait for the 32" to come out, and see how it performs.

VirgilCaine
May 19, 2009, 11:08 PM
I can't wait to see this thing in the next Hitman game.
They had an FN-2000 in Blood Money, so...

Corbin
May 20, 2009, 04:17 AM
That sucks if they're not going to have the 24" model. :uhoh: Hopefully they'll keep it. To my way of thinking, it's just about right for overall length, while not getting as heavy as the target model.

everallm
May 20, 2009, 06:47 AM
That GB listing is not just $10,000 but $200 for shipping as well.......

Yes, this is a capitalist free market, but this posting lumps together all the worst examples of fear mongering, FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) and outright fibs....and all for a weapon with an MSRP about $1500.

Now if this was hand signed by the development team, serial no 000001 etc there may be a collectors premium.

Girodin
May 20, 2009, 08:52 AM
I can't wait to see this thing in the next Hitman game.

I can't wait to see it in real life. It seems they technically met their release date by shipping a very small number of units out but months after the release I am yet to see one in real life. I am also yet to see any targets showing the RFB's accuracy.

Mr. Alloy
August 19, 2009, 05:26 PM
Still no further news here? ***, Kel Tec!?

everallm
August 19, 2009, 06:59 PM
7 sold on Gunbroker in the last 2 weeks, want news go to the Kel-tec users web site

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=499

dev_null
August 19, 2009, 07:12 PM
And they called the M16 a Mattel gun?

Tully M. Pick
August 19, 2009, 07:14 PM
$2500 for a Kel-Tec? Don't get me wrong, I love my Kel-Tecs and they've never run into a problem, but that's a little unrealistic.

Realbigo
August 19, 2009, 10:21 PM
Ugly? Other than a small number of antiques w/ beautiful wood furniture, most firearms are "ugly". I look at it as a light and efficient means to take 20 pursuers off my, and my families trail out to 1000m. Worst case scenario of course

seanie!
August 19, 2009, 10:24 PM
One thing that has me somewhat worried already is the ejection in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCVb55UxYbU&NR=1&feature=fvwp
They don't seem to come out smooth at all, and sometimes bild up and all come out at once. Is this normal for a forward eject?

junyo
August 19, 2009, 10:52 PM
They don't seem to come out smooth at all, and sometimes bild up and all come out at once. Is this normal for a forward eject?They're not forcefully ejected, they just get pushed into the ejection tubes. Depending in how the gun is oriented they can fall out or get pushed out by subsequent casings. But apparently it's a strong mechanism, it's allegedly capable of ejecting when the gun is fired straight up. Apparently Kellgren has a thing about his guns being capable of shooting at planes.

Hammerhead6814
August 19, 2009, 11:50 PM
I wonder what kind of accuracy these get?

Greebe
August 20, 2009, 12:01 AM
What is it with the price of weapons these days? After all they are mostly plastic.

Greebe

Rshooter
August 20, 2009, 02:33 PM
This is the first bullpup that might trip my trigger. :eek: I like the looks of it and the caliber. I have several .308's lying around and it would make a nice addition. The price is a strong point against it though.

HGUNHNTR
August 20, 2009, 02:46 PM
Mr Greebe, I would venture a guess that the materials used in constructing a firearm, especially designing a new one are are only a small percentage of the "cost" of production.

Don't forget about:

advertising
R&D
insurance
lawyers
company employee salaries and retirement
etc.etc

You aren't paying for the materials.

Wes Janson
August 20, 2009, 06:45 PM
And as a matter of fact, while plastic itself is dirt cheap, the moulds and machinery used to make those plastic parts are ridiculously expensive. Not as big a deal to Glock, maybe, but Kel-Tec has only built about 125 RFBs so far. Which means they've probably only made about $100,000 in sales on the platform, after it's been "released" for an entire quarter.

Greebe
August 20, 2009, 07:50 PM
Yes but for the money you could have a very nice XCR like this one:

http://www.robarm.com/images/Customer%20Images/XCR_SBR_LS_LG.jpg

If you need it short you fold the stock and it comes in shorter than the Bull.

To each his own but I still believe weapon prices are getting way overpriced these days.

Greebe

everallm
August 20, 2009, 08:43 PM
Greebe,

Got the XCR (you can tell how early an adopter I am, I have one of the very few HBAR 1:8's), gonna get an RFB, two completely different beasties.

Cost is close to a wash.

The XCR in 5.56/6.8 with an 18.5" barrel with the folding stock you mentioned comes in, on Rob Arms site at $1850, comparable prices on GB.

The RFB is currently selling at about 2K and has come down over the last month as more have entered the pipeline.

High Planes Drifter
August 20, 2009, 10:05 PM
TheGunSource has them for $1408 ; of course they arent in stock, there.

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/85754_Kel-Tec_Rifles_Shotguns_KEL-TEC_RFB18_7_62NATO_18.aspx


Seems like a pretty cool gun. Im waiting to see how they hold up before I put one on my to-buy list.

Wes Janson
August 20, 2009, 11:19 PM
The XCR shoots a lighter caliber, isn't ambidextrous, has a longer overall length (no one is going to be shooting one folded), has an inferior trigger than the RFB, has fewer gas port settings, and ultimately is not all that incredibly different than an AR15.

mordechaianiliewicz
August 21, 2009, 12:30 AM
Well, according to everything I've seen I'll be buying one once they can be had for between $1000-$1500. And I do mean actually in my hand, that is. They may be out there, but not for that price.

Bullpup .308. Decent optic on it, and I bet it'll be an awesome weapon.

Justin
August 21, 2009, 02:13 AM
$2500 for a Kel-Tec? Don't get me wrong, I love my Kel-Tecs and they've never run into a problem, but that's a little unrealistic.

Around two kilobucks is a fairly standard price for a US-made semi-auto .308 these days. I'm not surprised to see the Kel-Tec commanding a premium, as it's a new design.

Greebe
August 21, 2009, 03:14 PM
The XCR shoots a lighter caliber, isn't ambidextrous, has a longer overall length (no one is going to be shooting one folded), has an inferior trigger than the RFB, has fewer gas port settings, and ultimately is not all that incredibly different than an AR15.

The XCR will shoot a 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8 SPC, which is less than the the .308, but the 6.5 Grendel has similar ballistics. I have shot a lot of .308 but after owning one assault rifle chambered for it I would not want to have to hump the extra weight and take the extra abuse day in and out. Having used the 5.56 in the Army I have no desire for a rifle chambered in that. I would be quite happy with a 6.5 Grendel.

The XCR does have ambi-safty and yes you are correct that you would not shoot it with the stock folded. Having carried the M16A2 with a 20 inch barrel I don't feel like the extra length made that much difference, thus unfolding the stock when in hostile areas would not be a big deal.

The XCR actually is quite different than the AR platform. Take a look inside of one of them and you will see that aside from the the looks of the lower and the ability to take a Ar mag, they are very different and much more reliable.

I don't know about the trigger difference on the RFB compared to the XCR. I haven't shot the RFB. Have you? If so, how do they differ?

Now if they came out with the RFB in .260 Rem I think I might bite. They also say they might make a version in 6.5 G which would be cool.

Anyways I didn't mean to get into a war about which riffle was better. I didn't say that the XCR was, just using it as a price point comparison, and I believe it is overpriced as well.

Feel free to flame me, I don't really care, I'm fireproof yo!

Best regards,
Greebe

Greebe
August 21, 2009, 03:15 PM
everallm-

Sent you a PM.

Greebe

Greebe
August 21, 2009, 03:19 PM
double post

Wes Janson
August 21, 2009, 10:20 PM
The XCR will shoot a 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8 SPC, which is less than the the .308, but the 6.5 Grendel has similar ballistics. I have shot a lot of .308 but after owning one assault rifle chambered for it I would not want to have to hump the extra weight and take the extra abuse day in and out. Having used the 5.56 in the Army I have no desire for a rifle chambered in that. I would be quite happy with a 6.5 Grendel.

Regardless, 7.62x51 NATO > 6.5 Grendel in virtually every meaningful comparison. Power, ammo cost, range, availability, compatability...the 6.5 Grendel is never going to replace or even supplant 5.56 or 7.62, so ultimately it's a waste in my mind. The XCR weighs 7.5 pounds, the RFB weighs 8.1. That extra half-pound is more than made up for by the superior balance of the RFB.

Having carried the M16A2 with a 20 inch barrel I don't feel like the extra length made that much difference, thus unfolding the stock when in hostile areas would not be a big deal.

Huh? I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Shaving more than a foot of overall length off of a rifle makes a tremendous, incredibly important difference in handling no matter what you're doing.

I don't know about the trigger difference on the RFB compared to the XCR. I haven't shot the RFB. Have you? If so, how do they differ?

The RFB trigger is really, really good. Not quite into the realm of a Timney or an Accutrigger, but far better than one typically sees on any production semi-auto, and lightyears ahead of any other bullpup trigger.

Now if they came out with the RFB in .260 Rem I think I might bite. They also say they might make a version in 6.5 G which would be cool.

You seem to be a masochist for unobtainable wildcat cartridges that no one uses, don't you? ;)

Greebe
August 22, 2009, 12:45 AM
Haha... yeah I just really believe in 6.5mm cartridges. The future doesn't change unless people believe in something that could prove to be better.

You seem to be a masochist for unobtainable wildcat cartridges that no one uses, don't you?

Hey man, check with practical long range shooters out there, the .260 Rem is leaving the .308 in the dust, plus the .260 is a factory cartridge now. :neener: Its not just me that believes the .260 has an advantage. But yes I do like the wildcats and other often overlooked cartridges that are superb but don't get much attention in this country.:D

Later,
Greebe

Wes Janson
August 22, 2009, 09:30 AM
Hey man, check with practical long range shooters out there, the .260 Rem is leaving the .308 in the dust, plus the .260 is a factory cartridge now. Its not just me that believes the .260 has an advantage. But yes I do like the wildcats and other often overlooked cartridges that are superb but don't get much attention in this country.

True, it's an exaggeration to say that no one uses it, and it has its advantages..but it's still extremely scarce. Try finding ammo for it in a store, or finding local sources for components. I'm a firm believer in shooting things that are widely available, just in case. For a precision bolt action, the .260 Rem is definitely a better choice. For an advanced battle rifle, it doesn't make quite as much sense, IMO.

It's already been trickled out from Kel-Tec that their next project will likely be a 5.56 version of the RFB-the CFB.

Maverick223
August 22, 2009, 10:36 AM
I am starting to reconsider my decision to "go big or go home"...I think I may end up going with the 18" version...either way it seems that I will have plenty of time to consider which one is best for me. :)

everallm
August 22, 2009, 11:32 AM
Maverick

Kel-Tec have already stated that one of the modifications sets that have delayed the roll out was to make barrel changes practical for an experienced gunnie or most any gunsmith and they will be selling barrel kits once the pipeline finally starts flowing.

Buy 18" then get that 32" barrel waaaaaay later........:D

Maverick223
August 22, 2009, 12:05 PM
I think I will get either "way later"...I am starting to reconsider the longer bbl altogether, not just due to uavailability. I already have a .300WM long range bullpup...why do I need a .308 that is nearly as heavy, nowhere near its accuracy, and is unwieldy (making the advantages of a bullpup configuration a moot point). I am starting to think that the 18" or if I had my way a 20-22" version would be a better option.

Either way, I like a good bullpup configuration rifle, and will likely purchase a Kel-Tec at some point, but I will wait to see the initial reviews and the price drop. I am also considering a few other BP rifles...a second M17S in shorty config. (with a ~17" bbl), a P90, and perhaps the new pistol MSAR chambered in .45ACP or 9mm. :)

Greebe
August 22, 2009, 02:12 PM
Hey Wes--

I totally agree that the .260 would not make much sense in a battle rifle right now as ammo availability is low and that the 7.62 is a NATO round. I just wish that NATO would adopt a round that fits nicely between the 5.56 and the 7.62, like say a 6.5mm round.;)

NATO actually was going to adopt the .280 British but the US forced the .308 on them. The FAL was actually designed at one point for the .280B. I guess it was a great round for day in and out fighting.

Does anyone own the RFB? Has anyone shot them? I would be curious how the muzzle blast is with the .308 that close to your face. It seems like it might be fierce. That bullpup rifle would be a perfect candidate for an integral suppressor.

Greebe

Maverick223
August 22, 2009, 02:22 PM
I agree Greebe a suppressed version would be ideal, though unlikely. IIRC only a few dozen have been sold (likely to collectors) so a honest review (many will give a great review in an attempt to justify the exorbitant price that they paid) is unlikely until production is ramped up. :)

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