Desert Tactical SRS .338 Lapua


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Maverick223
March 5, 2009, 09:58 PM
Any thoughts on this or any other [somewhat] reasonably priced .338 LM? I always have liked "big-boy-guns" and have wanted a truly long range rifle for awhile and think this might fit the bill. I really like the idea of this rifle, but the AR-30 is soooo cheap @ <$2k.

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Maverick223
March 6, 2009, 09:32 PM
Anyone even heard of it?...know what a .338 LM is? :confused:

TRGRHPY
March 6, 2009, 09:59 PM
Looks like a nice rifle from what I've seen of it. I have an AR10 right now and I have a strong feeling that a 338LM may be my next long gun. I just read an article on that rifle and it looked fairly decent. I also read an article on the Barrett as well...I know I have some time until I have to decide so I'll have to keep my eyes open...and if you get one in the meantime, please keep us informed on how things go.

What are you shooting for a long gun right now?

Maverick223
March 7, 2009, 09:24 AM
What are you shooting for a long gun right now?
Only long range rifle I currently own is a Browning A-Bolt in .270WSM. It is reasonably accurate at the ranges it was intended for (pretty good out to about 600M), but not at the kind of range that I would like to achieve (1k +). :D Will likely trade the rifle after buying a .338, and get another A-bolt in .308 (cheaper to shoot and equally effective for deer) or possibly even .243. I will certainly put together a range report if I purchase either of the aforementioned .338s or if I find another within my budget (AI isn't really an option). If you find one please do the same.

Maverick223
March 8, 2009, 07:44 PM
The Sako TRG-42 looks pretty good, but what about the price? I like it a bit better than the AR-30. It has much better lines.

Zak Smith
March 8, 2009, 08:10 PM
Do you already have a proper long-range rifle? If not, I strongly, strongly recommend getting something in a cheaper, more manageable, easier-to-learn-on caliber than .338LM (or any "magnum" caliber).

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/icon/D100_3368_img.jpg
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/)

I don't know anything about your background, so don't take this the wrong way. Skill is much, much more important in making long-range hits than caliber or rifle or equipment (provided they are just merely adequate). The way to get skill and experience is through a lot of proper practice and training. Calibers such as .308, .260, 6.5x47, 6XC, etc, and much better for this than magnum calibers. They have small fractions of the recoil, are cheaper to shoot by usually a 2x+ margin, are "legal" in many more matches, etc. If you just want to hit stuff really, really far away (say 1250 plus), you can do that with 6XC, 243, 6.5-284, 7RM, 7WSM, etc.

I did a review of the TRG-42 here

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/articles/trg42awsm/icon/03_icon.jpg
article | Military .338 Lapua Magnum Rifles: the Sako TRG-42 and the AI-AWSM http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/military-338-lapua-rifles-trg42-awsm)

The .338LM is a great round (and I've shot thousands of rounds of it), but realistically, I replicate the 300gr SMK .338LM load using my 7mm RM, and if I could own only one or two proper long-range rifles, neither of them would likely be the 338LM (maybe #3 ;) )

I have no experience with the DT SRS, other than handling it a little bit at SHOT show '08. I haven't seen one used at any of our matches out here.

The AR-30 is a very economical gun (as is its big brother the AR-50), but I would not characterize it as very "field-use friendly." For shooting from a fixed range, it's a fine gun and reportedly (from a shooting buddy) is more accurate than one might believe from its skinny barrel.

The TRG-42 is a great deal value/price wise, just watch the accessories' prices! For a serious and proven factory 338LM rifle, it's probably the cheapest way into a very high quality gun.

Don't overlook the .338RUM as the "poor man's .338 Lapua". It duplicates the Lapua ballistics, and you should be able to buy an off the shelf Remington 700 in this caliber.

Hope this helps,
Zak

Maverick223
March 8, 2009, 08:20 PM
Do you already have a proper long-range rifle?
No, the best I have is the Browning in 270WSM, although accurate I want something that surpasses it's accuracy (especially in range), and with a bit more long range energy (the .270 drops below 1k ft/lbs after about 600M).
I haven't seen one used at any of our matches out here.
They are not available until "Mid-Summer this Year" IIRC. However, they do guarantee 0.5MOA groups.

Zak Smith
March 8, 2009, 10:05 PM
Even the .260 has over 1000 ftlbs at 750 yards. The problem with the .270 is BC, not caliber or "power."

TRGRHPY
March 9, 2009, 02:43 AM
If you find one please do the same.



When I say it may be the next long gun I get, I'm talking years from now...I have a lot of learning to do in the meantime.

Good luck with your choice.

Kind of Blued
March 9, 2009, 06:41 AM
Zak makes very good points.

You could easily get things out to 1000 yards, while learning a lot more with any number of more economical cartridges. If you're planning on reloading for this gun, you'll only save more money while learning even more. :)

Maverick223
March 9, 2009, 04:44 PM
If you're planning on reloading for this gun, you'll only save more money while learning even more.
I certainly do, both to lower the cost and achieve the best performance out of the firearm.

Also I am a bit picky...I must have a 60 degree bolt handle (no Rem 700s) and would prefer a bullpup configuration due to its superior handling characteristics IMHO. While the SRS does meet both, it is not terribly cheap (although not terribly expensive), with little variability in price due to caliber (it is also available in .243, .308, and .300 WM).

The .308 has far too short a barrel (only 22", if they made it in 26"+ I would be all over it) and the .243 is far too light a cartridge if I decide to take it long range Elk hunting. I wouldnt mind also having the .243 bbl, however I have not decided if it is worth the additional $1200.00 USD. The .300 WM would also be a viable option if it were appreciably cheaper than the .338, but at $100 less, I will pay the difference, even with the exhorbitant cost of ammo. I fear that if I start out with a lighter version, the one I really want (.338LM) will become unavailable, and therefore I don't want to start with a lighter cartridge.

While possibly not the best platform to fine tune my shooting skill I can handle the recoil, even without a brake (although one will be added). I have shot .375 H&H and .416 Rigby and rather like the cartridges (Enough so that I think I may purchase a .458 Lott which I have never fired). Also, the more I study other platforms the more reasons I come up with to go back to the SRS, I simply like the gun.

usmc1371
March 9, 2009, 06:59 PM
Take a look at the 338-378 weatherby, 60 degree bolt lift, accumark with factory brake is a pussy cat to shoot and they are pretty accurate. We have shot my little bros out to 800 yds with factory 250 noslers and its fun. IMHO...IF you have the skill to shoot at elk at extended range this is an outstanding round. I highly reccomend NOT shooting elk any farther than you can make a good solid hit on the first shot. For some thats about 200 yds. For some who practice alot and in good conditions hitting an elk at 500 yards is doable.

the 338-378 with out the brake installed KICKS. It is much worse than my 375 HnH. Infact shooting the 338-378 with no brake is only the second rifle ever to bounce a scope off my face. First was a light weight 30-06 with healthy hand loads that had the stock cut down for a midgit.

Maverick223
March 9, 2009, 07:30 PM
Take a look at the 338-378 weatherby
Looked at it...don't like it :neener:
Other than complete unavailability it is a fine cartridge. Don't get me wrong I very much intend to reload for this rifle, I just don't want to be tethered to the press. I don't know of any local gunshops that have .338 LM, but at least I can order the stuff. Also brass for the Lapua is very strong, especially if Lapua brass. Also to my knowledge no manufacturer produces a rifle chambered for the .338-378. The .338-378 must be necked down (unless you know where the custom brass can be purchased). That is the bad thing about wildcats, if I could have any cartridge, it would be a .300 LM, but it has the same issues.

Also just because I am able to shoot the cartridge, doesn't mean I can accurately, or even want to. A brake will be on this rifle (if in .338). Thanks for the reply, carry on [insert saluting smilie here :D].

Maverick223
March 14, 2009, 07:53 PM
I have since decided on the gun...unless I find something better real quick...it will be the Desert Tactical SRS. Now I think I have changed my mind on the caliber. :banghead: I am now leaning towards the .300WM. Any thoughts? Please keep in mind that the rifle is only available in .243, .308, .300WM, and .338LM. I don't too much care for the .308 due to the short bbl (22"). Thanks to all who has replied, thanks in advance to all who will. :D

RedNoma
March 14, 2009, 08:02 PM
A 22" barrel will be plenty in .308. A longer barrel would go against your handling needs as well.

Maverick223
March 14, 2009, 10:22 PM
Thanks for the reply, I like the price of the .308 ammunition, however match grade .300WM comes pretty close, and it goes without saying the long range ballistics are much better. On the other hand I have been told that a barrel extension is available for the .308 (making it 26" in length), I just don't know what effect this extension will have on the accuracy. I refuse to add a extension for the additional velocity if it is at the cost of accuracy.

RonE
March 15, 2009, 02:56 AM
It is good that you were able to make a decision. Zac is in the long range shooting business and is extremely knowledgeable.

Educating yourself is a great thing, by reading some of the reloading manuals you will find that certain easy to make wildcat cartridges will outperform certain factory rounds with heavier bullets and less powder. You will also find that there are cartridges (factory and wildcat) that use a lot more powder to gain very little. Take a look at some of the Ackley Improved rounds, the STW rounds and the .30-338 Win Mag, the .30-378 Wby Mag and perhaps the .300 Pegasus and the .416 Barret (shooting solid bullets with very high BC's)

As for the .338LM, take a look and compare it to the .340 Weatherby Mag.

Maverick223
March 15, 2009, 02:23 PM
Take a look at some of the Ackley Improved rounds, the STW rounds and the .30-338 Win Mag, the .30-378 Wby Mag and perhaps the .300 Pegasus and the .416 Barret (shooting solid bullets with very high BC's)

As for the .338LM, take a look and compare it to the .340 Weatherby Mag.

Thanks for the reply, unfortunately, none of the above are available in that particular platform, perhaps a .30-338 or a .30-378 will be available for it when I get ready for the second bbl. That would be ideal, as I feel certain that as my long range skills improve, I will find the .300WM's ballistics to be too constricting and search for a better long range cartridge (at the moment the .338LM). But for now it is looking like a .300WM will be the winner. It will certainly be MUCH cheaper to shoot, and while the gun may be purdy to look at, I don't buy art to hang on the wall. :D This gun (as well as any that I own or will own) will be shot as frequently as I can afford the time and ammunition to do so. ;)

Albert A Rasch
March 15, 2009, 06:44 PM
Hey there fellows,

I've fired the DT SRS in 308 and 338LM.

The targets where set at 500 meters and I swept them. Now I want to clarify that I do a fair bit of shooting, it was from the bench, and it wore a Schmidt and Bender that cost as much as the rifle system if not more.

The recoil on the 338 was very well managed by the stock design, and on the 308 it was negligible.

Ammo cost on the 338 runs about $4 per round (commercial loads from Lapua)

I am told that the 300 WM is an excellent choice in the rifle. Don't know as I didn't try it, but if the 308 could smack steel targets at 500M, the 300WM should do fine also. The system is well thought out, and as accurate as the person behind it.

I would behoove a purchaser to seriously think about the glass he puts on it. If you are going to use it for its intended purpose, don't skimp on the glass!

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

Maverick223
March 15, 2009, 09:53 PM
Thank you very much for the review; I am excited to see someone that has actually used the weapon system. What are your recommendations on the caliber? My requirements: It must be able to achieve 500M (glad to know that it can), It should be able to reach out 1000M+ and buck the wind well. I will use it to shoot about 500M regularly and want it to have the capacity to go out to 1000M+ as my skill improves. Also, it would be great if I could afford to shoot it, although $4.00US for Lapua brass isn't sounding that bad. If I go that route I will have to consider buying the commercial loads and saving the casings for reload (P.S.: where do you get Lapua .338LM that cheap?). :D

Maverick223
March 15, 2009, 10:13 PM
I would behoove a purchaser to seriously think about the glass he puts on it. If you are going to use it for its intended purpose, don't skimp on the glass!
You better not behoove me! :neener: I have put a great deal of thought into glass and decided, not to listen to most of the "knowledgeable people" I have spoken to, as I have gotten some pretty screwy answers. Everything from Simmons :barf: , Burris :scrutiny: , and Millett :uhoh: to Swarovski and Leupold (when someone recommends leo-pold in concerns me :eek: ). I won't say that all of the above are bad (although IMHO most are), some are just bad for the money.

To end my tirade, I have decided to go with what I like. I have always thought Zeiss/Hensoldt had the best glass, so I have elected to go with IOR (they are cheaper and use the same glass) in a 6-24x50mm or 9-36x56mm (leaning towards the 6-24 due to the smaller objective). Any opinions that do not include Leupold or glass in the sub-$800 range is welcome. Also, I can't afford the rifle and S&B, so we know who wins... :D

RedNoma
March 15, 2009, 10:56 PM
Just out of curiousity what are the actual distances you'll be realisticly shooting? A 300WM should get you to 1200-1500yds.

RedNoma
March 15, 2009, 10:59 PM
Also in the broad >$800 scope range I have no experience, but have heard great things from Nightforce and USoptics, along with your mentioned choices.

Big Daddy Grim
March 15, 2009, 11:08 PM
I like the 300 and it reaches out there just fine.

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 08:07 AM
Sorry for the slow response...I have to work occasionally :neener:. After putting alot of thought into I am still a bit indecisive. The .300WM is a fine cartridge and performs well, but the .338LM is likely the type of performance that I will end up wanting in the future. I will begin shooting at 500M, and will likely continue at that distance until I gain enough proficiency to start moving out further. I will likely end up moving up to the sub-sunic range of whatever round I choose (and at about a mile the .338 is very tempting). On the other hand I am currently not good enough for the .338LM. I the conversion was priced more affordably it would be a no-brainer...get the .300WM then move up to the .338LM at a later date (or even buy both now). At the moment the .300WM is looking like my starter cartridge. :D

gunnie
March 16, 2009, 10:42 AM
Maverick,

i had less to choose from when i got a 338L...many new platforms available now.

less than zero experience with the OT "SRS", had to hunt it up on the net. you say you have little experience with the kind of shooting you plan to use it for, this raises many questions:

the 300WM still has 44 mag energy @ 1,000 yards. this isn't enough?

when the target is that far away, bolt cycling time is likely non-issue. but have you tried working the action on this system? looks awkward even if it was a 20 degree throw bolt...what if you NEED to cycle it fast?

the quality 308 match loads are very good to about 600yds in real world scenarios, in 22" or 30" bbls. (yes, i know they have performed admirably much further out, but only for those intimately familiar with the round) have you explored all of capabilities of your 270WSM?

did you check into the above advice from zak about ballistic coeffecient? where it goes subsonic is pretty much how far it will be accurate/effective, this regardless of remaining energy. with only 38 special remaining energy, a well placed hit will wreck your whole day. (38 snubbies are used to save life and limb every day of the week. the well placed shots terminate the threat rather than just stopping it.)

originally i was leaning toward the AI offering, (as stated above less to choose from then) but i chose the AR-30 because it was sightly more accurate in a side by side comparison with the accuracy international shooting black hills 300 grain SMK ammo in "special weapons for military and law enforcement" magazine. get range reports with this bullet and pick based on that to take advantage of the best long range loading for this caliber.

i chose the nightforce 5.5x22 because dialed in for 200yds, the "NPR2" reticle is good past 1,000 yards (300gr SMK) on a 15 minute base, ~with no cranking on the knobs~. i see the notion of 3-400 yard zeros as making the iron clumsy and slow should close work become needed. when time is NOT available.

despite the calibers usefullness beyond that range, it starts getting into the gray zone as to above mentioned "real world" uses. very few small arms systems/users are a threat at over a half mile distance.

for that matter, how many venues do you have access to beyond that for practice? better still, how many 1,000 yard ranges do you have access to? using the 44 mag analogy again, the 300 grain still has 44 mag energy @1,600. is the answer to these questions a reliable bullet stopper, or remote enough to allow for saftey beyond the target?

if all of the above seem like i'm trying to talk you out of getting this, please note that i bought one anyway. just variables to consider.

gunnie

mcwjr13
March 16, 2009, 11:43 AM
Here is a review over at Sniper's Hide.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1026076#Post1026076

Zak Smith
March 16, 2009, 12:40 PM
If the 243 has a fast twist, 243 with the 115's is a very good long-range target cartridge.

Otherwise, get it in .308 and then buy a .260 barrel later.

If you get the 300, a change to 7mm RM works easily and provides better ballistics.

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:30 PM
when the target is that far away, bolt cycling time is likely non-issue. but have you tried working the action on this system? looks awkward even if it was a 20 degree throw bolt...what if you NEED to cycle it fast?
I have other "closer quarters" weapons that I can fall back on for that, although I don't see the need (and hope I never have the need for it). I simply want an accurate platform to perform at a range of 1000M+. I have a very good place to shoot at long ranges (can easily obtain 1000M, and very possibly 2000M). Why not utilize this potential? I simply want a good SWS to achieve that end. The SRS is very appealing to me as I feel (unlike many) very comfortable with a bullpup in my hands. I feel that the design is well thought out as it provides a very accurate, easily maintained system that will allow me to change the caliber at will. The .300WM appeals to me due to its decent ballistics and relative cheap ammo prices (easily afford to shoot).
Here is a review over at Sniper's Hide.
Been there...read that...:neener:
If the 243 has a fast twist, 243 with the 115's is a very good long-range target cartridge.

Otherwise, get it in .308 and then buy a .260 barrel later.

If you get the 300, a change to 7mm RM works easily and provides better ballistics.
Haven't ruled anything out yet (caliber wise). The .243 is nice and has alot of potential down range, but will it handle (at supersonic speeds) 1000M or greater? Also the downfall of the cartridge is its energy at longer ranges (e.g. how can I justify it?). As far as a barrel liner (as far as I know the only way to go down to 7mm without a custom bbl anyway), what type of accuracy can be expected, and for how much?

I appreciate the replies guys...:D

gvnwst
March 16, 2009, 09:35 PM
As far as a barrel liner (as far as I know the only way to go down to 7mm without a custom bbl anyway), what type of accuracy can be expected, and for how much?

I don't think Zak was meaning a barrel liner, but a "custom" barrel.

As for .243, with the 115gr DTAC bullets Zak mentions, it equals the .300wm or so i have heard. It was a joy to shoot one when i did.

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:40 PM
Wow that was quick...gotta refresh faster :D

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:42 PM
I don't think Zak was meaning a barrel liner, but a "custom" barrel.
I can afford that or a scope...:D I'd get it but I think a scope might help. :neener:

gvnwst
March 16, 2009, 09:43 PM
lol, yeah. Just get it in .308 or .300 WM and save up for a barrel in .260 or 7mmRM.:D

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:46 PM
Lest something else better comes along, it's looking like a SRS in 300WM with a IOR scope, and very possibly a .338LM in the not-so-distant future.

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:47 PM
The .338 (in SRS) as skill improves of course...:D

Zak Smith
March 16, 2009, 09:47 PM
. The .243 is nice and has alot of potential down range, but will it handle (at supersonic speeds) 1000M or greater? Also the downfall of the cartridge is its energy at longer ranges (e.g. how can I justify it?). As far as a barrel liner (as far as I know the only way to go down to 7mm without a custom bbl anyway), what type of accuracy can be expected, and for how much?
Don't know where you got the idea of a barrel liner from my posts. I am talking about rebarreling to a new caliber.

In the .243, you shoot high-BC (starting at approx 0.60) bullets. Hard to argue with 0.60 BC @ 3000 + fps. For target shooting, it has impressive ballistics and will stay well supersonic longer than .260.

Downside of .243 is much more limited high-BC bullet selection (than .260), shorter barrel life, and less terminal ballistics and/or "hit indication" on steel.

Zak Smith
March 16, 2009, 09:49 PM
I would reiterate my original advice:

Do you already have a proper long-range rifle? If not, I strongly, strongly recommend getting something in a cheaper, more manageable, easier-to-learn-on caliber than .338LM (or any "magnum" caliber).

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:50 PM
Don't know where you got the idea of a barrel liner from my posts. I am talking about rebarreling to a new caliber.
I'm cheap :neener:

The .243 is nice, a wee bullet, with limited bullet selection (compared to the .300WM) and ammo is about the same as the magnum (without getting to say "?it's a magnum" :D ). Thanks Zak.

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:52 PM
I would reiterate my original advice:
Quote:
Do you already have a proper long-range rifle? If not, I strongly, strongly recommend getting something in a cheaper, more manageable, easier-to-learn-on caliber than .338LM (or any "magnum" caliber).
But, I have a "magnum" and Beyonce wants to "upgrade me"...:D

gvnwst
March 16, 2009, 09:54 PM
Oh, man, that is bad. Any of her videos are pretty bad....bbut really, a .308 based cartridge will be cheaper, easier on the shoulder, and lighter. Did i mention cheaper?

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:58 PM
Oh, man, that is bad. Any of her videos are pretty bad....bbut really, a .308 based cartridge will be cheaper, easier on the shoulder, and lighter.
The 300 is nearly as cheap, and much flatter. In all honesty the .243 looks better than the .308. Hate to be a non-conformist, but never really saw the .308 as a long range caliber due to the effects of wind and that gravity thing. :D

Zak Smith
March 16, 2009, 09:58 PM
Cheap and long-range shooting don't usually go together... ;)

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 09:59 PM
My original thoughts was to go with the .338LM and then downsize to the .243 (was afraid the less-popular .338 may be dropped by DT). The .243 si a very practical round, especially in my neck of the woods.

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 10:00 PM
Cheap and long-range shooting don't usually go together...
Tell me about it...:rolleyes:

gvnwst
March 16, 2009, 10:01 PM
In all honesty the .243 looks better than the .308. Hate to be a non-conformist, but never really saw the .308 as a long range caliber due to the effects of wind and that gravity thing.
I agree totally. Hate me if you must, but i am not a big fan of the .30-06 either.!:eek::D

gimposaurus
March 16, 2009, 10:02 PM
Do you want a flash toy or do you want to shoot long range?

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 10:03 PM
I agree totally. Hate me if you must, but i am not a big fan of the .30-06 either.!
Wow there is two of us, group hug, LOL. :neener:

Not good when you receive a forum msg that states there is a 60sec wait before additional posts (just got it :banghead:)

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 10:04 PM
Do you want a flash toy or do you want to shoot long range?
Can I have both? I like toys, are there any that shoot really far?

gimposaurus
March 16, 2009, 10:06 PM
You certainly can have both:)



but you can also do one, without the other:)


If your focus is more for the skills than the toys, I'd suggest getting something simpler and dare I say cheaper, and spend the rest on ammunition and range time

Zak Smith
March 16, 2009, 10:08 PM
The 300 is nearly as cheap, and much flatter. In all honesty the .243 looks better than the .308. Hate to be a non-conformist, but never really saw the .308 as a long range caliber due to the effects of wind and that gravity thing.

My original thoughts was to go with the .338LM and then downsize to the .243 (was afraid the less-popular .338 may be dropped by DT). The .243 si a very practical round, especially in my neck of the woods.
Few thoughts. First of all, barrels and consumable "wear" items, like brass. The action, stock, and optic are the constant base around which you finish the system with a barrel, brass, bullets, etc. If you are locked into getting barrels from only one vendor (you allude to them possibly dropping the .338LM), then aren't you going to be totally stuck with a useless rifle system if the company ever obsoletes the product, goes out of business, decides to drop your caliber, etc?

" In all honesty the ... Hate to be a non-conformist"

There should be no debate about the long-range performance of different loads, and there usually isn't. The numbers are the numbers, provided people are looking at the right bullets.

.308 is a decent and competent long-range caliber, with certain benefits over other cartridges, even those based on its case (like .243, .260, .260AI, 7-08, etc).

Anyway, also note that if you go with .243 you'll have to reload to get good LR performance. .260 has a couple factory ammo choices for LR ammo. .308 has several. .338LM is not practical to shoot factory ammo due to cost.

Zak Smith
March 16, 2009, 10:10 PM
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 | YARDS
338LM 300 0.77* 2700 > 0.00 2.61 11.00 26.18 49.34 81.98 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 0.684 2950 > 0.00 2.60 11.01 26.26 49.65 82.82 | wind (inches)
338LM 250 0.675 2950 > 0.00 2.64 11.17 26.67 50.49 84.30 | wind (inches)
7RM 168 0.643 3050 > 0.00 2.64 11.23 26.88 51.03 85.48 | wind (inches)
300WM 210BER 0.633 2900 > 0.00 2.89 12.30 29.53 56.21 94.32 | wind (inches)
243WIN 115 DTAC 0.585 3100 > 0.00 2.86 12.19 29.39 56.21 94.89 | wind (inches)
260 139 0.615 2800 > 0.00 3.14 13.38 32.20 61.52 103.35 | wind (inches)
300 190 0.53* 2950 > 0.00 3.39 14.59 35.55 68.92 117.61 | wind (inches)
308 155 0.508 2900 > 0.00 3.66 15.82 38.68 75.13 127.84 | wind (inches)
308 175 FED 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 4.27 18.56 45.74 89.14 150.37 | wind (inches)

338LM 300 0.77* 2700 > -0.00 0.76 2.70 5.05 7.82 11.12 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 0.684 2950 > -0.00 0.59 2.23 4.25 6.69 9.62 | drop (mil)
338LM 250 0.675 2950 > -0.00 0.59 2.24 4.27 6.73 9.70 | drop (mil)
7RM 168 0.643 3050 > -0.00 0.54 2.08 4.01 6.36 9.23 | drop (mil)
300WM 210BER 0.633 2900 > -0.00 0.63 2.37 4.55 7.21 10.49 | drop (mil)
243WIN 115 DTAC 0.585 3100 > -0.00 0.52 2.05 4.00 6.42 9.44 | drop (mil)
260 139 0.615 2800 > -0.00 0.71 2.60 4.99 7.94 11.61 | drop (mil)
300 190 0.53* 2950 > -0.00 0.62 2.38 4.68 7.62 11.42 | drop (mil)
308 155 0.508 2900 > -0.00 0.66 2.53 4.98 8.16 12.33 | drop (mil)
308 175 FED 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 0.87 3.17 6.24 10.28 15.61 | drop (mil)

338LM 300 0.77* 2700 > 2700 2433 2182 1946 1725 1523 | velocity (fps)
7RM 180 0.684 2950 > 2950 2635 2341 2068 1815 1584 | velocity (fps)
338LM 250 0.675 2950 > 2950 2631 2334 2058 1802 1570 | velocity (fps)
7RM 168 0.643 3050 > 3050 2709 2392 2098 1827 1581 | velocity (fps)
300WM 210BER 0.633 2900 > 2900 2564 2253 1966 1701 1469 | velocity (fps)
243WIN 115 DTAC 0.585 3100 > 3100 2723 2375 2054 1762 1502 | velocity (fps)
260 139 0.615 2800 > 2800 2462 2150 1863 1602 1378 | velocity (fps)
300 190 0.53* 2950 > 2950 2550 2184 1848 1548 1296 | velocity (fps)
308 155 0.508 2900 > 2900 2485 2109 1768 1472 1236 | velocity (fps)
308 175 FED 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2249 1887 1560 1293 1106 | velocity (fps)

Maverick223
March 16, 2009, 10:22 PM
Few thoughts. First of all, barrels and consumable "wear" items, like brass. The action, stock, and optic are the constant base around which you finish the system with a barrel, brass, bullets, etc. If you are locked into getting barrels from only one vendor (you allude to them possibly dropping the .338LM), then aren't you going to be totally stuck with a useless rifle system if the company ever obsoletes the product, goes out of business, decides to drop your caliber, etc?
Thanks, read that on your site too, part of what is leaning me away from the big boy. Also thanks for the easy to read comparison you put together. I appreciate you (and everyone else) sticking with me. If it weren't for you guys I would have to listen to the "snipers" at the local gunshop (one suggested the Simmons I eluded to above as glass for the new gun :what: ).

Albert A Rasch
March 18, 2009, 09:04 PM
Howdy Fellows,

Thought I would throw a couple more thoughts out.

As the DT SRS is a sniper system, I doubt they would drop the 338LM.

If it where me, (and I was considering the SRS), I would definitely go for the 308 first and hone my skills at relatively low cost. You can handload specialized loads with less expensive components too.

On the other hand, if you already own an accurate 308 then go ahead and drop the loot on the 338LM. Order a couple hundred Lapua brass, and whatever bullet you prefer. The net is full of recipes.

Zak sounds like he knows what's up so I would mind his tutelage.

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

Maverick223
March 18, 2009, 10:01 PM
Thanks Al, IMHO my .270WSM is has the potential to have superior range than a .308, so I don't really want a .308. The problem with my A-bolt is ammo, as no one (that I am aware) of makes match .270WSM, or even .270 match bullets. The .270WSM has a great BC and will reach out there quite well (almost as good as a .308 match grade, with less adjustments necessary) and with decent accuracy, however the .300WM or the .338LM will offer quite a bit more range and oomph. And I like oomph, I mean who doesn't right? :D

gvnwst
March 18, 2009, 10:06 PM
Best idea is like Zak said, get the .308 and rebarrel it. The .260 is a very good cartridge, or the 6.5x47 lapua if you like the prospect of better brass without any forming. (only brass IIRC though, so ALL of it will be expensive, no cheap option, and nosler makes good .260 brass...really hard to find and EXPENSIVE though)

Maverick223
March 19, 2009, 05:31 PM
Sorry for the slow response, had a long day yesterday and passed out early. :D As I stated above (getting long I know...) I would rather stay away from the .308 just because it has a rather short barrel, also I don't really care for wildcats or uncommon cartridges as brass is often difficult to obtain and factory loads are not available. Back to work... :D

Hostile Amish
March 19, 2009, 05:42 PM
"soooo cheap @ <$2k."

Rem 700 in 338 RUM = $850

mcwjr13
March 19, 2009, 06:11 PM
Just eat ramen for the rest of the year sell your car buy a bike and buy two. One in .300wm and one in .338 lapua. Then maintain your diet and exercise routine to feed them and get optics. You know you've thought about it. Tell you what you buy them and I'll be a nice guy and buy gas and ammo for a weekend of shooting.

$3,693 .338lm
$3,518 .300wm
$5398 two Schmidt & Bender 3-12 x 50
$398 two Storm cases
$392 two sets of scope rings
$196 for two harris bi-pods
$170 an extra mag for each
$170 two Tactical Intervention Slings

$13,935 plus ammo range finder and spotting scope

gvnwst
March 19, 2009, 08:45 PM
also I don't really care for wildcats or uncommon cartridges as brass is often difficult to obtain and factory loads are not available. Back to work... :D

Well, IF you are talking about .260.....:shakeshead: You are saying that you don't want to go with a .260, yet you are wanting to go with a .338LM or RUM???:confused: That is WAY harder to get brass and ammo for than any .308 based cartridge. If you just don't like the .260, there is always the .243, but it burns barrels faster, so there is no real reason to get it.

Maverick223
March 19, 2009, 10:37 PM
Tell you what you buy them and I'll be a nice guy and buy gas and ammo for a weekend of shooting.
Thanks...alot of gas from Texas :D Don't need two entire systems though as the SRS is made to readily change bbl and caliber, and you can even use the same scope, et al.
Well, IF you are talking about .260...
No, sorry for the confusion (was at work with a little spare time) referring to the 6.5x47 Lapua... the .260 isn't that bad, and you are right about the .338LM. Another concern is the cost to make a custom bbl (I am pretty sure it won't be as cheap and easy as re-chambering/barreling a Rem 700). The .243 is not out of the question, however as you mentioned it eats barrels quicker than the Magnum without the added oomph (although it is pretty flat, and bucks the wind pretty nicely). IIRC the cost ammo for the .243 is about = 300WM, and that is enough to sway me to the larger cartridge.

Maverick223
March 19, 2009, 10:40 PM
Does anyone know the twist rate on any of the DT SRS rifles (especially the .243)? The twist will make a great deal of difference in that cartridge, although I would imagine it equal to or greater than a 1:9 twist.

gvnwst
March 19, 2009, 10:41 PM
Okay, sorry. The 6.5x47 is really the ballistic twin of the .260, i personally just like it. (might be because i am part europian, i dunno:D) As for it being easier to re-chamber a 700......no way. A barrel is a barrel, unless there is some sort of fancy system that this rifle has that would need to be added. Then, it is just that system, to rechamber, you go out and buy a .264" barrel, and have a gunsmith chamber it. You might actually be able to go and buy a prechambered .260 barrel, but if you prefer to go with some specifics that barrel/chamber don't have.....

Maverick223
March 19, 2009, 10:47 PM
I realize it is difficult to remove the bbl of the Rem 700...what I am referring to is the multitude of barrels available for them. The SRS requires a pretty specific bbl to work properly (to be able to break it down), and I don't know how easily one may be obtained. :(

gvnwst
March 19, 2009, 10:58 PM
Okay, i just looked up what the SRS is, seems i had gotten this rifle confused for another. For barrels, email them and ask how easy it would be to make a barrel work with their system, as you would like it in .260 rem. (if you do...)

what I am referring to is the multitude of barrels available for them
Now, pretty much all barrels available, as in blanks, can me made to work with the 700, you just take the barrel, and turn it down to the correct size, thread it, and screw it into the reciever. So, a barrel blank that will work with a 700 will work with a multitude of other bolties.

Maverick223
March 19, 2009, 11:02 PM
For barrels, email them and ask how easy it would be to make a barrel work with their system, as you would like it in .260 rem. (if you do...)
I'll have to do that this weekend, the internet is sloooow here (at hotel in Charleston - business trip) and it takes too much effort. Thanks gvnwst...

gunnie
March 20, 2009, 10:10 AM
...."Thanks...alot of gas from Texas Don't need two entire systems though as the SRS is made to readily change bbl and caliber, and you can even use the same scope, et al."....

seen a lot of these QC bbl offerings in the gun porn mags lately, have always wondered at how repeatably a mechanical connection would retain the n'th of a degree of accuracy you're paying the extra premium for.

strikes me that at some point the wear of just changing the (metal-to-metal fit) components would degrade the trueness they are designed/over-engineered for.

might be talking as one who didn't take the time to research this particular system, but can't envision one same wouldn't eventually happen to.

if your still following this , Zak, any long term reports on these QC bbl units you can tell me of?

just curious.

gunnie

1911shooter
March 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
I would strongly reccomend a Weatherby Accu-Mark in 30-378wby or 338-378wby i have one of each and they are wonderfully accurate even at long range. with the factory ACCU brake installed they are very managable, with out then your own your own as they generate recoil that can and will cause retinal detachment. but there is no better calibers that i can think of for long range anything.
Now that being said i do own a Sako trg 42 in .338 lapua magnum and a custom Mcbros, .50 caliber bolt gun, as well as a Chey-Tac in .416 Chey-tac. these are great guns and i shoot them often but i have learned a long time ago most people can not handle large bore magnums no matter what they think recoil is tremendous and the cost to feed they is staggering. back to the 30-378 and 338-378wby's with the brakes installed my oldest son hunt deer with the 338-378wby he love it and as we own 1,123 acres and 1,010 is open land he has taken 4 deer well over 600yrds with this rifle the farthest is a lasered 612yrds. he is only 15yrd he is 5'8" 215lbs.

Maverick223
March 20, 2009, 09:19 PM
Thanks to all, I'll be brief, as I am currently on the I-state heading back home (not driving); but I really want to stay with the SRS simply because of the bullpup configuration. I know that many despise them but I love the practicality and comfort that they offer. I am curious about the effect of pulling and replacing the bbl frequently (although I don't see me using that feature often) as well as the twist rates for the SRS. Zak, you with me? Thanks yawl. :D

Zak Smith
March 20, 2009, 09:32 PM
[The SRS requires a pretty specific bbl to work properly (to be able to break it down), and I don't know how easily one may be obtained.
This is what I was referring to when I said,
. If you are locked into getting barrels from only one vendor (you allude to them possibly dropping the .338LM), then aren't you going to be totally stuck with a useless rifle system if the company ever obsoletes the product, goes out of business, decides to drop your caliber, etc?



if your still following this , Zak, any long term reports on these QC bbl units you can tell me of?
I don't have any first-hand experience with "precision" rifles with quick-change barrels, OTHER than those that just screw on the conventional way but have constant headspace (ie, like the AI).

t I love the practicality and comfort that they offer. I am curious about the effect of pulling and replacing the bbl frequently
For screw-on systems, as long as it was done properly, I bet you could remove/replace it every month and not ever have a problem.

but I really want to stay with the SRS simply because of the bullpup configuration. I know that many despise them but I love the practicality and comfort that they offer.
Well, there are a lot of really "practical" and "comfortable" rifles out there that aren't bull-pups, but it sounds like you're really stuck on the SRS. That's OK. We all buy rifles from time to time because we just want them. However, it's usually not the cheapest way to achieve some utilitarian ends nor always the best solution to the problem.

Maverick223
March 20, 2009, 09:46 PM
We all buy rifles from time to time because we just want them. However, it's usually not the cheapest way to achieve some utilitarian ends nor always the best solution to the problem.
You got me nailed...I do really like the SRS, the more I see/handle other systems the more I like the SRS. I think it just fits me, however I think you are right about the price (other weapons would cost the same and include alot of ammo to go with them). I really appreciate the help from someone that doesn't... have any first-hand experience with "precision" rifles :evil:
Thanks, will you still be my friend? :D

Albert A Rasch
March 20, 2009, 10:43 PM
Me and the 308.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_UyiffDFtfIU/ScRQswERjOI/AAAAAAAABJI/aJnAxItwFOI/100_2664%20a.jpg

You'll be happy with the 300WM if that's what you want, then just get the 338LM barrel and magazine when you're ready. It's headspaced and ready to go into the receiver.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_UyiffDFtfIU/ScRSla1qXZI/AAAAAAAABJY/LT2PjJc3G-o/100_2724%20a.jpg

One scope is all you need.

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

Maverick223
March 21, 2009, 12:21 AM
Thanks Al, I really appreciate your input, considering that you have handled and fired the SRS. A few questions though: Do you know the twist rate of any of the SRS versions (especially the .243)? What rings did you use (if DT rings, what MOA was used on the SRS you fired)? I was thinking of using 40 MOA. Finally, can you repost the pics (I was unable to view)?

Albert A Rasch
March 22, 2009, 01:32 AM
That's odd the pics were there last night...

I'll tell you what, let me post them on my blog, give me till tomorrow (Sunday) PM. In the mean time, I'll try and get those answers for you.

Twist Rates:

243- 1 in 7.5
308 - 1 in 11
300WM - 1 in 11
338LM - 1 in 10

The SRS uses proprietary rings suitable for any scope with an objective lens 56mm or smaller. They come with 40, 35, or 20MOA and unfortunately I don't recall which they were.


I'll post those pics at The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com) tomorrow.

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

Albert A Rasch
March 22, 2009, 10:37 PM
Pictures are up.

Desert Tactical Arms SRS (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com/2009/03/desert-tactical-arms-srs.html)

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

Javelin
March 22, 2009, 10:43 PM
Good points made in this thread.

Really give it some serious thought. But if you really want one just because and you have the deep pockets for a round that serves a very limited and specialized role then I say go for it.

;)

Maverick223
March 23, 2009, 08:56 AM
Pictures are up.
Thanks, sexy (the gun not you :D )
Really give it some serious thought. But if you really want one just because and you have the deep pockets for a round that serves a very limited and specialized role then I say go for it.
Assuming that you are reffering to the .338LM and not the .300WM. I have pretty much decided on the .300WM and will likely be ordering the .300WM later this week, any news on how long it takes them to ship an order. they seem to be a pretty straight forward, respectable company. They even got their product out the door before the expected shipment (if Kel-tec had done so I probably would have a RFB right now, glad they screwed up :D ). Thanks to all, I will keep you guys updated as to the order process as well as a range report to follow arrival.

Maverick223
March 23, 2009, 08:57 AM
and you have the deep pockets for a round that serves a very limited and specialized role then I say go for it.
Pockets are a bit shallow, it will be a .300WM for now and a .338LM to follow, when I start making the big bucks... :D

Albert A Rasch
March 24, 2009, 01:54 AM
I'll call them in the morning, I have a pretty good professional relationship with them. They were very nice at the SHOT Show.

Best regards,
Albert
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

Maverick223
March 24, 2009, 07:58 AM
I'll call them in the morning
Thanks Al; I called last night and a nice gentleman (that didn't seem like he really new what was going on) said it will probably ship out in July if ordered now, but to check back today and ask for Melissa for details. Luckily they are located in Utah so I can give them a call back after work.

"in the morning", you mean like when you posted...LOL I get the strange feeling it will be a while before you read this. :neener:

Albert A Rasch
March 24, 2009, 11:59 PM
Maverick,

Maybe I oughta time stamp my posts! LOL

I didn't get to it today. I put a note on my desk to make sure I do it tomorrow, 3/25.

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 11:11 AM
I didn't get to it today.
Not necessary...thanks, anyway. I called them back and Melissa said the following. The production rate has doubled, the price has increased a couple hundred dollars, and I can get in on the second production run. This means if I order soon (I will likely do so on Thurs or Fri) then I should receive the rifle in May. :what:

Also, want to thank you for the range review, I like to do my research before I buy.

On a different note I believe I have changed my mind about my second barrel (likely a year or more away :confused: ), I think I may go with a 7mmRUM instead of the .338LM. The 7mm is flatter and bucks the wind nicely, and it offers more ammo choice at a lower cost. The downside is that Melissa said that custom barrels (or additional calibers) may be offered, but not anytime soon. She did say that it wouldn't be too terribly difficult for a proficient gunsmith to re-barrel it to chamber a different round. When I call back to place my order I will ask if bbl blanks are available, as that would simplify things a great deal.

Zak Smith
March 25, 2009, 11:44 AM
Local guys here shooting the regular 7mm Remington Magnum get 1750-2000 rounds before the barrel is toast. The 7mm RUM burns like 20% more powder.

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 06:32 PM
Local guys here shooting the regular 7mm Remington Magnum get 1750-2000 rounds before the barrel is toast. The 7mm RUM burns like 20% more powder.
Not too worried about the powder...the barrel life on the other hand might be a problem. :banghead: If it is that short out of a 7mm Mag., what is it like with a 7mm RUM? Can't be good, with the extra boost in velocity. What would you choose for ultra-long range (1000-1500M, paper punching only)? Ideally I would like something that enters the trans-sonic region after 1500-2000M.
P.S.: Please don't say .408 Cheytac, .416 Barret, or .50 BMG I know they are the greatest things since the 105mm but not very practical ;) ; I do want it to fit in a sub 15lb rifle and preferably the DTA-SRS.

Zak Smith
March 25, 2009, 06:39 PM
Not too worried about the powder...the barrel life on the other hand might be a problem.
That was actually my point.
What would you choose for ultra-long range (1000-1500M, paper punching only)? Ideally I would like something that enters the trans-sonic region after 1500-2000M.
I answered this in my first reply to the thread (second paragraph). I would only add that maximum range depends quite a bit, for all calibers, on local environmental conditions (ie, gross air density).

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 08:34 PM
you can do that with 6XC, 243, 6.5-284, 7RM, 7WSM, etc.
See that...what would be your 1st choice? The 7WSM because it is the record holder?

Edit: at average, humid NC/SC, 500-1500Ft above sea level conditions

Zak Smith
March 25, 2009, 09:03 PM
If I gather correctly from your earlier post, you've decided on the .300 Win Mag as the first caliber, right?

Look at the ballistic table I posted in #51. At 1250 yards, the best of those (300gr SMK from .338 Lapua Magnum) has only, what, about a foot less wind drift (than the 210gr VLD from .300WM)? That's one MOA. If you mis-estimate the wind by 1.5 mph, that subsumes the difference between these two. The best 7mm RM load has maybe 100 fps on the 210/300 load at 1500 yards.

So why have barrels for two different cartridges which are not very differentiated from each other in performance? If you want one in the "class" of the regular 7mm-.30 caliber magnums, the 7mm RM or 7mm WSM is a better choice than the .300WM (other than perhaps putting very large game down at intermediate ranges). But I fail to see the point in having multiple setups in similar cartridges.

If you are going to have multiple setups, they should be either identical (for commonality) or differentiated in a way that makes sense for your intended uses. For example, I see good arguments to have a .308 & .260 (one has common ammo, the other has much better ballistics in about the same package), or a .308/.260 & a standard magnum like 7mm RM/WSM (one is low recoil and has longer barrel life, but still has good long-range performance; the other has better long range and very long range performance but has more recoil and is more expensive to shoot). In the article, I broke it out with this advice:
I am going to recommend three other calibers to use for practical long-range shooting. The first is .260 Remington. It fits in the same rifles and actions as 308, but has less recoil and superior external ballistics. The second is 7mm Remington Magnum. The last is .338 Lapua Magnum. There are a lot of other calibers that perform well at long range, but these additional three provide good stepping points of increased performance.

The Magnum calibers such as 7RM, 300WM, and 338 Lapua will provide improved ballistics, but at the expense of ammunition cost, barrel life, and increased recoil. The box magazines for these calibers hold fewer rounds than the short-action .308-based calibers. Follow-up shots will be slower due to the increased recoil and bolt cycling distance.

It is often instructive to look at what competition winners use, but one must be aware if and to what extent their choices are influences by rules or restrictions you aren't limited by, if the "use" is similar enough to your intended use, and what additional costs (time, money, etc), if any, they incur that you might not want to incur. Just as one example, in F-Class competition, .338 caliber is technically allowed, but basically nobody shoots it because muzzle brakes (and suppressors) and prohibited in NRA Long-Range competition and the .338LM's recoil is too punishing without one. Thus, while the calibers that dominate F-Class are certainly excellent long-range performers, we don't necessarily gain comparative data vs. .338 from that sport.

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 09:29 PM
Thanks for the additional info...I might still consider the .338LM, but it looks like the .300WM is pretty similar in all aspect except down range energy (where the .338LM dominates) so I may just have to invest in other exciting gun platforms. :D

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 09:31 PM
If I gather correctly from your earlier post, you've decided on the .300 Win Mag as the first caliber, right?
Oh, forgot, yes I have decided on the .300WM. In fact I sent in the order request about 0.5hrs ago. I will keep you posted, and follow with a range report.

1858
March 25, 2009, 09:33 PM
Zak,
When I started putting together my two long-range rifles built around AICS stocks, I went with the .308 Win and .300 Win Mag combination since I've been shooting/reloading for those calibers for more than 12 years. So what do you think about that combination? I don't have any problem with the recoil from the 300 WM and feel that it's an excellent 1000 yard caliber. The .308 is a joy to shoot with virtually no recoil. When it comes time to replace the barrels, I'll definitely consider the 7mm-08 in place of the .308 but I really don't know what I'll do with the .300 Win Mag ... any suggestions?

Reading your articles is DANGEROUS ... you got me thinking about ordering the Leica CRF 1200!! :D

:)

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 09:36 PM
1858, glad to hear you like it, cause I just bought it. Now get off my thread... :neener: :neener:

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 09:38 PM
you got me thinking about ordering the Leica CRF 1200!!
You can measure the distance to stars with that thing. :neener:

Zak Smith
March 25, 2009, 09:38 PM
Hey, my analogous setup is .260REM and 7mm RM, which are each a step better than .308 and .300WM respectively. I really recommend trying the .260, I think it's very close to the sweet spot in a .308-sized case. If you want something bigger than 7RM/WSM or .300, you could try .338 RUM.

-z

PS. Order the Swarovski instead.

Zak Smith
March 25, 2009, 09:38 PM
Mav,

It's a laser rangefinder.

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 09:41 PM
Mav,

It's a laser rangefinder.
Dually noted, see edit (thought it was a bit confusing myself...upon reading) :p But it has a loooong range IIRC.

Zak Smith
March 25, 2009, 09:47 PM
1200 yards, best case.

I had the Leica 1200 LRF.

Sold it and got the Swarovski Laser Guide, which will range to 1999 yards in good conditions, but will range intermediate distances more reliably than the Leica. If you really want to shoot "ultra-long range 1000-1500M", you need something that will reliably range that far.

1858
March 25, 2009, 10:20 PM
Zak, thanks for the suggestions ... :)

WE SHALL NOW RETURN TO REGULAR PROGRAMMING. :what:

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 10:21 PM
If you really want to shoot "ultra-long range 1000-1500M", you need something that will reliably range that far.
Need to hone my skill at known ranges before I even consider a LRF. I currently have access to some of the best range-finders available. I can borrow a Total-Station (surveying tool) from the office for ranging purposes (slow but will work very effectively for distance and elevation for setting up the range) Although one will likely be in my future.

Maverick223
March 25, 2009, 10:23 PM
WE SHALL NOW RETURN TO REGULAR PROGRAMMING.
You can stick around, if you promise to play nice... :neener:

captrichardson
March 26, 2009, 12:42 PM
Thread over at AR15.COM:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=43&t=272621

Also, if you search YOUTUBE for Desert Tactical, there are a bunch of videos that show the various features.

I had placed my order for one last year, but after production delays I canceled it. Hopefully I can get back on a wait list this summer.

I tried to read the 4 pages of responses, but in the event I missed something sorry.

This setup uses a "barrel extension" which connects the barrel to the receiver. Based on that:
Headspace - as long as the bolt is checked with the extension it is good to go. In most instances with this design you will change the bolt when you change the barrel, so as long as the bolt and barrel stay together you are OK.

New Barrel - it was my understanding that Desert Tactical Arms would sell the barrel extension by itself. If that was the case any gunsmith could purchase one and add a barrel of your choice to it. I would also "assume" if you shot a barrel out, that it could be removed from the extension and replaced with a new one, but I am not 100% sure of that.

In terms of calibers, I was going with:
.308 for ammo availability/price and general use at "normal" ranges
.338 Lapua for "long" range applications where a "heavy" round is needed
I was also trying to get them to offer a .260 option for punching paper at "long" range, but if not, I was going to get an extension and have a barrel made up.

For me, the size/weight, handling characteristics, and quick change caliber options are something that no one else is offering and are the "deal maker" for me. I am not a huge fan of the price tag, but given there is nothing else out there on the market to even compare it to, I guess you are getting what you pay for.

Thanks and Best of Luck,
Capt Richardson

Maverick223
March 26, 2009, 07:04 PM
Thanks Captain, and welcome to the forum :D. Talked to Melissa at DTA and she said that barrel blanks (extensions?) will be available soon and new chambers may be offered later on.
For me, the size/weight, handling characteristics, and quick change caliber options are something that no one else is offering and are the "deal maker" for me. I am not a huge fan of the price tag, but given there is nothing else out there on the market to even compare it to, I guess you are getting what you pay for.
I couldn't agree more...

gvnwst
March 26, 2009, 07:20 PM
Talked to Melissa at DTA and she said that barrel blanks (extensions?)

Probably unchambered blanks with the extension.

I cant wait for the write up!

Maverick223
March 26, 2009, 10:09 PM
I cant wait for the write up!
Me either ;) I still haven't received my order confirmation (placed order via e-mail last night)...figured I would get it today...jeebus whatcha get fer $4k? Unfortunately I have to mail them a personal check, as they charge a 3% fee for credit/debit and that gets steep at that price, can't have it eating up my glassware funds. :D I am either going with IOR or Premier Reticles...leaning towards the IOR due to price though.

gvnwst
March 26, 2009, 10:15 PM
Well, when i ordered my $3k AR, it didn't even start to get assembeled for like 4 months!
Those look like some nice optics, but such price.... Are you rich to afford this thing?:neener::D

Maverick223
March 26, 2009, 10:20 PM
Are you rich to afford this thing?

Almost as rich as you :neener:

Ever heard of the band "Big and Rich"? Thats not me...and i'm not in it. :uhoh:

gvnwst
March 26, 2009, 10:25 PM
Almost as rich as you:neener:


Then how the heck can you afford such a awesome rifle, and such optics to go with it?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I am like, the super poor guy who just sits in front of his computer making everyone think he actually knows something about guns and LR shooting.....:uhoh::D:D

Maverick223
March 26, 2009, 10:46 PM
I am like, the super poor guy who just sits in front of his computer making everyone think he actually knows something about guns and LR shooting
LOL...somebody nice must have ordered that $4K AR for you...you'll have to introduce me :D

gvnwst
March 26, 2009, 11:11 PM
Oh crap. i meant $2k. But with the scope...$2.5k.....:uhoh: (then add the $700 worth of dedicated .22lr upper goodness)

That one took a LOT of saving, over a year and a half.

Maverick223
March 26, 2009, 11:39 PM
Oh crap. i meant $2k. But with the scope...$2.5k.
Good, i'd hate to think you'd pay $4k for something like a AR :neener:

Zak Smith
March 26, 2009, 11:42 PM
I think even I would be hard-pressed to put together a "$4K AR" unless it had a S&B on top. :D

gvnwst
March 26, 2009, 11:58 PM
Good, i'd hate to think you'd pay $4k for something like a AR

For that much money, it better have a GOOD scope on it and happen to not be a AR-15....

Maverick223
March 27, 2009, 12:14 AM
S&B...on a AR, that's like clothing a bum in Armani. :neener:

Pulse
March 27, 2009, 12:16 AM
4k AR?
how about 5k AR?

http://www.oberlandarms.com/pdf/waffen/langwaffen/oa_rifles_oa-15-spriii.pdf

those crazy germans!

gvnwst
March 27, 2009, 09:17 AM
Actually, i missed something, if you happen to add a high end suppressor with thhose optics, the AR can easily reach $4k...:D:p But for a bare AR, no way i would pay that much.

Maverick223
March 29, 2009, 09:51 PM
Alright, the rifle purchase is finalized, now for the optics (this is really directed at Zak but the more replies the better). I am starting to second-guess my thoughts on a IOR. They have great glass, but I have heard bad things about quality about some of them (Please note that if I get an IOR it will be a SFP version). I am starting to consider getting a insanely expensive Premier Reticles 5-25x56, however it has one feature that I am not too happy about...the objective is a little large for my taste. I know that it will capture more light but it also raises the scope off of the mount (DTA recommends a scope "not to exceed 56mm"). On a positive note the scope is simpler in operation, and from all accounts has glass as good as or superior to S&B. The Premier is in the FFP (which I am not used to) and in some ways I prefer that system as long as the reticle is very fine, so as not to obscure the target at long range. No matter which scope is chosen the system is not likely to be abused in any way, however I would prefer a durable platform with excellent glass characteristics and repeatability. Is the Premier worth the additional $1k+? What are your thoughts?

Zak Smith
March 29, 2009, 11:00 PM
Well, as usual, I would direct you to my two long-range optics articles first. Their information is still current with respect to products with the following exceptions:

* Nightforce has a FFP 3-15
* the two Premier scopes

There are basically three manufacturers who offer the features I believe is ideal for practical long-range shooting: USO, Premier, and S&B. (NF and Leupold are both missing at least one feature, or have limited combinations; IOR is getting close but falls in this category as well). I have owned/bought and/or used all of these - I've paid for with my own money Leupold Mark 4, NF, USO, S&B. I have a loaner Premier have demoed a recent IOR.

My general comments with respect to what you've already written:

1) I strongly recommend less than 5-25. Most people buy "too much scope" and this is a good example of it. My preferred scope for 0-1200 yards is the S&B 3-12x50, but I do enjoy the extra magnification of the Premier 3-15. I do own a S&B 5-25x56, but it is the least preferred scope of the bunch because of size and magnification levels which do nothing for me. (I actually moved it to the least shot/carried rifle, the 50, where size/weight is moot and I am truly more likely to engage 1000-2000 yard targets than 0-1200.) With extremely clear glass (that the USO, S&B, and Premier all have) and a FFP reticle setup, I find the scopes most "usable" in the 12-15x range; however, I rarely wish for more than 12x in my "small" S&Bs. Just to prove the point, I have engaged 1000+ yard targets (large ones) at 3x in my S&B 3-12, and have in fact used the 12x to as far as 1670 yards (it was an approx 18" plate if I remember). On my 5-25, I normally shoot it less than 16-18x anyway. Remember with a FFP reticle turning the power up does not make your reticle aiming features "smaller" with respect to the target; it makes everything bigger.

2) If this is for practical shooting, get the FFP reticle and matching knob/reticle units. The Premier reticle, the S&B P4-Fine, and the "fine" USO mil and moa reticles are all "fine" enough to use at max power but not too fine to see at their lowest magnifications. For practical shooting, the only downside to a FFP setup is cost. I would also strongly counsel towards mil/mil (0.1 mil clicks and some mil-dot or mil-hash reticle).

3) I currently have one of the Premier 3-15x50's for demo, and it's on my AWSM (which is currently in 7RM not 338LM). I moved the S&B 5-25 off this rifle to try the Premier. I like everything about the Premier scope except for the knob configuration. The early production demo unit I have has like 20+ mils in one turn and very hard every-10-click "clunks." The clicks are too close together and there is only one hash mark every 2 clicks, and it's easy to overshoot the "clunks" (the military requested the "clunk" on 1.0 mil increment). I understand that they have two new knob configurations, a single turn with somewhere around 13 mils and a double turn with 20+ mils. I was told that these solve the "fine click" and clunk issues. However, I have not handled these two configurations yet so I cannot yet endorse them 100% as easy to use, etc. As far as I am concerned, if they can get a knob setup that's as easy to use as the S&B PMII "double turn", the Premier 3-15 will be my scope of choice. However, I'm not going to dump almost $10k in S&B scopes to upgrade either.

4) The USO's are great scopes; they operate a little differently and are larger and heavier.

If you want to spend under $2000, your best bet is the Nightforce 3-15x50 FIRST FOCAL.

If you want a more compact, lighter, efficient overall package and will be shooting mostly within 1250 yards at smallish targets (say 1 MOA or larger) with excursions to 1500 yards at larger targets (say 2 MOA +), the S&B 3-12x50 would be my choice. I run it on my .308, .260, and have on my 7, etc. I strongly prefer to "carry" a rifle with a 3-12 over the 5-25. The Premier 3-15 would be a drop-in replacement for the 3-12x50 S&B with regard to this paragraph, provided the knob usability issues detailed above are actually fixed in the two new versions of it. The Premier also seems slightly heavier than the 3-12 S&B, but it's more or less the same size.

If you don't care about form factor and weight, the 5-25 S&B is one hell of a scope, but like I said, realistically more magnification than helps in practical shooting and large/heavy. The same comments would apply to the Premier 5-25.

There are currently a lot of these high-end scopes for sale used on SnipersHide, so there's a potential to get a good/great deal.

There are 4-16 S&B's, but in this form factor they do not offer the double-turn knob in mil units. They do offer it in MOA but they have no MOA reticles to match it. Thus, I discount them entirely.

pdd614
March 29, 2009, 11:04 PM
buy once cry once mav. it took me a while to learn this lesson, and i ended up wasting alot of money. having said that i should have my premier heritage 3-15 by july.

1k more sounds like alot of money, but if you shoot often you will end up spending alot more than that in ammo, range fee's, etc. i won't go cheap on fixed cost parts for my rifles anymore.

Maverick223
March 30, 2009, 08:14 AM
I would direct you to my two long-range optics articles first.
Read it but it makes no mention of Premier (for obvious reasons) or IOR (assuming because of the FFP problem). As far as the Nightforce, it is a very well built scope but I believe the glass suffers for the price. Thanks for the clarification.
Remember with a FFP reticle turning the power up does not make your reticle aiming features "smaller" with respect to the target; it makes everything bigger.
That is the only downside I see to owning a FFP scope, but with proper reticle selection, I can overcome this obstacle.
There are currently a lot of these high-end scopes for sale used on SnipersHide, so there's a potential to get a good/great deal.
I am a member (same name) there, so I will certainly give that a shot, otherwise it is looking like a Premier may be in my future.

1858
May 6, 2009, 06:59 PM
I had the Leica 1200 LRF ... Sold it and got the Swarovski Laser Guide, which will range to 1999 yards in good conditions, but will range intermediate distances more reliably than the Leica. If you really want to shoot "ultra-long range 1000-1500M", you need something that will reliably range that far.

Zak, your advice doesn't always fall on deaf ears!! After much deliberation (and your recommendation), I ordered a Swarovski Laser Guide range finder today. :D It should come in handy on a pig/sheep eradication "hunt" in August and help with ranging steel plates (200 to 500 yards) at my local range. Thanks for the advice.

:)

Maverick223
May 6, 2009, 08:03 PM
Well at least Zak is good for something... :neener:

UPDATE:It is about new rifle time...should be delivered in about a weeks time. I did indeed decide on the Premier Heritage in 5-25x56mm, and have it on order with Liberty Optics, Scott gave me a deal that I couldn't refuse (over $500 less than MSRP) but I will have to wait till sometime in June for delivery of said scope. I will give a update when the rifle arrives and a full review on the entire system upon receipt of the optics.

1858
May 6, 2009, 08:19 PM
UPDATE:It is about new rifle time...should be delivered in about a weeks time. I did indeed decide on the Premier Heritage in 5-25x56mm, and have it on order with Liberty Optics, Scott gave me a deal that I couldn't refuse (over $500 less than MSRP) but I will have to wait till sometime in June for delivery of said scope. I will give a update when the rifle arrives and a full review on the entire system upon receipt of the optics.

Maverick223, GREAT news for you and congratulations on the rifle. I'm looking forward to hearing all about the rifle AND the scope. You mentioned IOR in an earlier post and I got to look through one at a recent match. I was impressed by the reticle, the clarity and the overall design/fit/finish. I'd still rather have an S&B, although but I'd be happy with anything from USO, IOR, NF, Premier or S&B ... I'm an equal opportunity user!

:)

Maverick223
May 6, 2009, 08:38 PM
I'm an equal opportunity user!
If you live or visit NC/SC shoot me a PM and you can give it a shot. Had a chance to look through the Premier (but not shoot it) and it looks as good or better than a S&B IMHO, we shall see in the coming weeks...

1858
May 6, 2009, 08:53 PM
Maverick223, sadly I don't live anywhere near NC or SC but thanks very much for the offer!! I don't know anything about Premier optics but that is a fine-looking piece of hardware that you've ordered with many impressive and desirable features. I'm going to add that to the list in my previous post.

http://www.premierreticles.com/Products/HT5-25.html

http://www.premierreticles.com/PDF%20Files/Option%20Description.pdf

:)

gvnwst
May 6, 2009, 09:05 PM
Mav, when you get it, you had better write it up, everything.:D

Maverick223
May 6, 2009, 09:10 PM
thanks very much for the offer
You are very welcome, come on over sometime...:D
Mav, when you get it, you had better write it up, everything.
Will do, Mav.

Will Fennell
May 6, 2009, 10:49 PM
Mav,
We don't live that far apart......where are you shooting that has that much range? Finding a range that will get you to 1K is hard enough....but getting out further is going to be tough. I've got a .260 and a new TRG22 that I'm wanting to stretch the legs on:)

Maverick223
May 6, 2009, 11:17 PM
Mav,
We don't live that far apart......where are you shooting that has that much range? Finding a range that will get you to 1K is hard enough....but getting out further is going to be tough. I've got a .260 and a new TRG22 that I'm wanting to stretch the legs on
I live near some high tension power lines that are ideal for long range applications, I am currently in the process of finding/building a range that is safe and has the range I am looking for. If and when I get it going I will be more than happy to let any responsible gun owner (not implying anything) have a go at it. I will send you a PM when I get it settled if you like. 1mi. or even 1k will come later for me, as I need to improve at closer ranges before stretching out that that far. I will likely set up the range for 300 and 500 to start with.

kgunz11
August 13, 2009, 12:33 AM
For the record, bbl conversions are available for the Desert Tactical rifles, just look here:
http://www.freedomgunworks.com/desert-tactical-arms/stealth-recon-scout-barrel-conversions/prod_39.html

You said if it was available in a 26" .308 you'd be all over it. Well here's your chance!

Maverick223
August 13, 2009, 12:40 AM
Thanks for the information but the rifle (chambered in .300WM) should arrive this Friday. I am rather glad that I went that route as if affords me greater versatility with negligible extra investment in reloading components. The next bbl (quite a ways down the road) will likely be 7mmRM or a .338LM. :)

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 01:18 AM
Well if you decide you want a 7mm variant let me know and we'll hook you up. It will certainly be cheaper to shoot than the .338 and the 7mm's will ballistically outperform the .300 offerings.

Many people are confused about the intricacies of a custom caliber for the DTA rifles. First of all, the bbl is a custom contour and is proprietary. You have to have the permission of DTA to get a bbl made. So far, that I know of, only one company is CNC machining blanks with the DTA contour other than Krieger, and Krieger isn't even interested in doing a bbl for anyone. The bbl has a critical dimension shoulder that must be precise with .001 of an inch, and a gunsmith will have to cut the tenon to meet that spec. The next issue would be in the bbl shank, it must also be within .001" at 1.250 of an inch. There is NO room for mistake.

Many folks will talk about how easy it would be to send a bbl to your favorite smith, but thus far there is only one doing it. :evil:

Even if someone else were able to, would they offer a .5MOA guarantee on a platform they didn't build? Not to mention additional bolts and bbl extension would cost over $700.00.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/kgunz11/DSC00588Large.jpg

I own 4 of these rifles, I know just a little bit about them. ;)

Zak Smith
August 15, 2009, 01:29 AM
First of all, the bbl is a custom contour and is proprietary. You have to have the permission of DTA to get a bbl made
Let's assume someone gets their hands on a factory barrel and an extra barrel extension. What is preventing them from copying all the critical dimensions and making it work? I don't see any patent pending information on their web site and a quick search of applications on uspto.gov for "desert tactical" didn't come up with anything. Is there a patent application filed?

If not, how does one need permission to cut a barrel to a certain contour? Are they going to hold the barrel extensions "hostage" as a form of permission?

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 01:41 AM
For someone to copy the contour would be work enough without a spec sheet from DTA. Can't answer the "patent pending" questions, Nick would have to speak for that. I'm sure it could be duplicated, there are some talented machinists out there, but your not going to call your favorite bbl maker and get one of these.

As for the bbl extensions, I have a few of them and have shown them to my gunsmith/machinist friend. A quick look at them and he expressed there would be significant cost in replicating it. I can get all of them I need from DTA, which is where I got permission and a spec sheet to copy the bbl contours. I have quite a bit of foot work in getting the barrels built, and have spent quite a bit of coin as well. I welcome anyone else that wants to travel that road to "pack a sammich". DTA understands the role a person like myself plays in their ability to sell rifles when more calibers are available. If I never sell a bbl conversion, I'm ok, I got the ones I wanted out of the deal. As a side note, I wouldn't make anything on any conversion I sell, just a little on the chassis if someone were to purchase it from me, a Desert Tactical Arms Premier Dealer.

Zak Smith
August 15, 2009, 01:45 AM
So it is not true, then, that one "needs the permission of DTA to get a bbl made"?

If this is indeed not true, then it is misleading for you, a dealer of DTA-spec barrels, to claim it is.

Maverick223
August 15, 2009, 01:47 AM
FWIW, Melissa at DTA said they had extensions ready for if/when I wanted to rebarrel to a different chambering (that is not offered). IIRC Nick said that any smith should be able to add a barrel (of any manufacture) to the extension (which is the only sensitive part of the barrel contour according to Nick...the owner/designer). I think Krieger will be my choice bbl, have yet to decide upon the chambering, but I have plenty of time to think about it while I am wearing this one out. :D

Lets move further discussion to...here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5833466#post5833466)...the rifle arrived today. :)

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 01:52 AM
As far as I know Zak, it is a correct statement. I did not say it was legal or ok for someone to copy the bbl, I agreed it could be done with enough work and knowledge of the bbl setup. You would need to contact Desert Tactical Arms at 801-975-7272 if you want an answer to that from the designer/owner of the company.

As is the one where I said I don't make a dime off the bbl conversions. You do the math.
custom contoured bbl = $???
Chamber and threading = $???
Barrel Extension = $???
Bolt = $???

Please refrain from attempts to attack my character. A conversation can be had without insinuations such as those.

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 01:54 AM
FWIW, Melissa at DTA said they had extensions ready for if/when I wanted to rebarrel to a different cambering (that is not offered). IIRC Nick said that any smith should be able to add a barrel (of any manufacture) to the extension (which is the only sensitive part of the barrel contour according to Nick...the owner/designer). I think Krieger will be my choice bbl, have yet to decide upon the chambering, but I have plenty of time to think about it while I am wearing this one out. :D

Lets move further discussion to...here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5833466#post5833466)...the rifle arrived today. :)
Maverick, have you contacted Krieger about getting a DTA contour bbl? They would seem to be the logical choice since they already have a program written for turning out the barrels right? Let me know what they tell you.

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 01:57 AM
And so you know, the bbl shank and shoulder are equally as critical as the bbl extension. The extension simply screws on the bbl, if the shank were an incorrect dimension, the bbl would flop loosely in the receiver. If the critical dimension shoulder is too long or too short, the half moon bbl cam would not engage it and therefor loose it's ability to hold the head spacing. But I digress, you guys are well informed with the information you've been given, I'm just wasting my time here.

Maverick223
August 15, 2009, 01:59 AM
Maverick, have you contacted Krieger about getting a DTA contour bbl? They would seem to be the logical choice since they already have a program written for turning out the barrels right? Let me know what they tell you.To be quite honest I am not the least bit worried about it right now...it will be some time before I consider a new bbl...so far I have fired a grand total of TWO rounds, I may fire three tomorrow. :D

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 02:08 AM
Well I hope their stance on the barrels changes, it would be nice to have other options out there, but at the moment, they have no desire what-so-ever to sell a DTA bbl to anyone other than DTA.

Zak Smith
August 15, 2009, 02:09 AM
As far as I know Zak, it is a correct statement. I did not say it was legal or ok for someone to copy the bbl, I agreed it could be done with enough work and knowledge of the bbl setup.
To be clear, you claimed that one needs the permission of DTA to "get a barrel made"; I am asking you to back up that claim. (And I alluded to the two methods I could think of for DTA to legitimately require "permission.") Since your reply did not cite anything to back it up, I concluded there was nothing.

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 02:23 AM
Zak are you saying because you cannot find a patent in reference to the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout Rifle that it does not exist? Yet you want to publicly attack my character and accuse me of profiteering? I asked you to fill in the blanks on the bbl conversion above. There's proof enough in that... I have no reason to provide falsified information, and simply because YOU cannot find it... I guess I just lost a little respect for you. Bet that's going to really upset you too huh.

Maverick, I was merely attempting to offer a solution to your quest for additional calibers. My apologies for your thread spinning off like this.

Maverick223
August 15, 2009, 02:26 AM
it would be nice to have other options out there, but at the moment, they have no desire what-so-ever to sell a DTA bbl to anyone other than DTA.I agree, I just don't see the need in worrying about it right now.
Zak are you saying because you cannot find a patent in reference to the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout Rifle that it does not exist?What Zak is saying is that anyone can make the bbl, even to that profile...and I am reasonably certain that he is correct. :)

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 02:29 AM
Kind of like this one...

Designed for operators, by operators. The new Remington® Modular Sniper Rifle (MSR™) combines lethal accuracy at 1500 meters with a user adjustable folding stock, free-float handguard, and the potential to change barrel lengths and calibers within minutes at the user level from .338 Lapua Magnum to .338 Norma Magnum to .300 Winchester Magnum to 7.62mm NATO. This patent-pending system addresses long range and medium range performance needs of the modern battlefield in one package loaded with features designed to meet multiple emerging US armed forces requirements. The system features lightweight, efficient design and optimal material selection for corrosion resistance and strength. The MSR is mission-adaptable and can change the bolt face, barrel, and magazine to enable a smaller profile or different caliber. This system truly never has to leave the battlefield.
http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/msr.htm

Maverick223
August 15, 2009, 02:35 AM
I think it would be difficult to patent a bbl profile...you must prove that the new profile is an improvement and significantly different from existing designs. I am not a patent attorney but that is my take on things. :)

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 02:38 AM
When you get the chance, take your bbl out and look at it. ;)

I have no proof that the bbl, the rifle, or any part therein is patented. I do believe the bbl could be reverse engineered. I also think doing it without the permission of Desert Tactical Arms would be counter productive.

kgunz11
August 15, 2009, 02:39 AM
I think it would be difficult to patent a bbl profile...you must prove that the new profile is an improvement and significantly different from existing designs. I am not a patent attorney but that is my take on things. :)
Do you think the Remington MSR meets that criteria?

Maverick223
August 15, 2009, 02:44 AM
Do you think the Remington MSR meets that criteria?Don't know much about it so I haven't a clue...not looking to copy a Rem. MSR so it shouldn't be an issue either way. :)

Zak Smith
August 15, 2009, 09:28 AM
kgunz11,

Zak are you saying because you cannot find a patent in reference to the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout Rifle that it does not exist?

One of the guidelines of a logical argument is that the party who makes a claim is responsible for backing up that claim; it is not the other party's responsibility to prove it for him (or prove it false, for that matter). Since you claimed that DTA required permission to replicate the SRS barrel profile, it is completely reasonable to ask you to back that up.

A patent is the primary legal mechanism to prevent others from replicating a product feature already in the marketplace. A trade secret would apply to technical specifications or know-how relating to how to actually produce the barrel, but it seems like we agree that, and it was my original point that, a barrel profile setup can be replicated with common CNC technology by simply examining the rifle and the barrel and measuring the appropriate parts to the proper precision. Thus, a patent is the most likely method and a cursory check did not reveal there was one filed. There certainly might be one; that would be a easy way to demonstrate your claim.

As for an attack on your character, well, if there is no legitimate mechanism to say permission is required, that it is misleading and that's all I said.

I'm out for the weekend, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it. I am genuinely curious how DTA would require permission from would-be barrel profilers to do their thing. Maverick223, have fun with your rifle! Hope your mags come in soon.

Art Eatman
August 15, 2009, 09:29 AM
Closed by request...

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