1000 yard sendero ultra mag


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beerengineer
March 7, 2009, 12:35 PM
Howdy folks. I'm brand new to the forum and I must say its one of the most informative sites out there. I've been bitten by the long range shooting bug. I am so lucky to have a world champion .50 cal shooter living 8 miles from my house and he has his own 1000 yard range. He loves sharing his knowledge and will no doubt be my mentor. I can't compete with his 50's! But I must have a 1000 yard gun! I MUST! So I bought a remington 700 sendero .300 ultra mag. What do you guys think? How would you guys proceed with a project like this? setup, optics, muzzle breaks etc? My goal is to reach out to 1000 yards accurately. I have so much to learn and I can hardly wait to get this project rolling!

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rmuzz
March 7, 2009, 01:42 PM
I don't have any knowledge to share, but I'm jealous! I would love a long range facility/mentor near me, wish you luck on your project - have fun.

benatilstate
March 7, 2009, 01:53 PM
id be thrilled to have a range HALF that long to shoot at.....best I have around here is 125yards. Still fun, but not really challenging once the gun and scope are sigted in.

Having said that - I wouldnt go too over the top to start with. Those guns I believe are pretty darn good out of the box, so put a good scope on it - Leupold, Zeiss, whatever. Starting out you will be the weakest link, not the gun, so I would start shooting it basically stock. Then as you improve, spend the money to improve the gun. Just my opinion.

Pulse
March 7, 2009, 02:26 PM
Demigod LLC has some very good Articles on long range shooting, writen by a moderator here, Zak Smith:

part 1: Rifle and Gear: http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/?p=1
part 2: Optics: http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/
part 3: Shooting: http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting/

found thse Articles to be very intresting with lots of good information, maybe read in to them, i am sure they will answare many questions.

rcmodel
March 7, 2009, 02:41 PM
I'd be a little concerned about the .300 RUM and barrel life.

Burning 100 grains of powder through a .308" hole every shot is hard on barrels!

By the time you get done sighting in, developing loads, and practicing, it will burn out a barrel, and you will need to start all over again.

rc

jlg
March 7, 2009, 03:01 PM
Don't get a muzzle break. Save your pennies and buy a good suppressor. A muzzle break on a 300RUM will rattle your bones. The suppressor will do a better job of lessening recoil and will make it much more pleasant to shoot. I won't be silent...but it definetly won't be loud either.

BTW, the Sendero is a fine rifle. I own one in 7mmRUM.

skinewmexico
March 9, 2009, 01:04 AM
Painful gun to learn to shoot at 1000. And expensive. I'd look at the calibers Zak recommends.

jbech123
March 9, 2009, 02:49 AM
The 300 RUM may come in handy if you want to go way past 1000, but if you are punching paper or steel it is more recoil then you need.

JWF III
March 9, 2009, 08:58 AM
I have to agree with everybody else in regards to the RUM. The -06 willreach that far, but the WinMag is excellent at 1000. Many Wimbelton Cups have been won with the WinMag.

Best advice I could possibly give, reload with the 220 gr. or 240 gr. SMK.

Wyman

ParaElite
March 9, 2009, 09:26 AM
You don't need a suppressor or a brake. If you are shooting 1000 yards in the F Class, get a good bipod and of course a rifle telescope, you will also need a spotting scope. Get advice from your friend/mentor on the type of telescope you need. If you are shooting competition with a sling, you will need to look at some of the things and sites that target shooters frequently visit.
I am no longer in the game of competition shooting with a sling. When I was, I used a .300 Win Mag and reloaded. I used 80 grains of H1000 and had excellent results out of a 27.25" barrel (Remington bolt action, single shot, 40XB). The recoil pounded the hell out of me though! If you are using your rifle for F Class find out what the rules are. The rules are different for all these classes and shooting sports or events. The bench-resters have their own rules as well. Your best bet is to talk to your mentor before you do anything else. He may be shooting .50s but everything else will be the same more or less.

Zak Smith
March 9, 2009, 09:41 PM
ou don't need a suppressor or a brake. If you are shooting 1000 yards in the F Class
Considering that brakes and suppressors are prohibited by NRA rules in F-Class competition, this is kind of moot.

We just had this discussion over in the other thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5406572&postcount=6

I strongly recommend reading that and taking my advice in the "Part I" article that Pulse posted the link to (thanks).

1000 yards isn't that far. Most people who haven't shot that far vastly over-estimate what is required to shoot that far.

Look at a moderate case size in 6.5 mm, such as the .260 Rem, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x55, 6.5-284, 6.5-06, etc. If you must go to a magnum case, the 7mm RM and 7mm WSM have better ballistics with less recoil than the .300's.

An accurate rifle isn't worth anything if you can't shoot it enough without pain to get the experience and skill to make long-range hits. Hmm:
The recoil pounded the hell out of me though!
Sounds like a great endorsement of high-recoil calibers without muzzle brakes. :neener:

Here's a ballistic comparison of some relevant calibers, sorted by wind drift at 1250

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 | YARDS
338LM 300 0.77* 2700 > 0.00 2.61 11.00 26.18 49.34 81.98 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 0.684 2950 > 0.00 2.60 11.01 26.26 49.65 82.82 | wind (inches)
300RUM 240SMK 0.71* 2850 > 0.00 2.62 11.08 26.40 49.94 83.44 | wind (inches)
338LM 250 0.675 2950 > 0.00 2.64 11.17 26.67 50.49 84.30 | wind (inches)
7RM 168 0.643 3050 > 0.00 2.64 11.23 26.88 51.03 85.48 | wind (inches)
300RUM 210BER 0.633 3000 > 0.00 2.76 11.71 28.08 53.40 89.59 | wind (inches)
6.5-284 139 0.615 2950 > 0.00 2.91 12.40 29.80 56.85 95.59 | wind (inches)
300WM 210BER 0.633 2900 > 0.00 2.89 12.30 29.53 56.21 94.32 | wind (inches)
243WIN 115 DTAC 0.585 3100 > 0.00 2.86 12.19 29.39 56.21 94.89 | wind (inches)
708 168 VLD 0.643 2700 > 0.00 3.15 13.41 32.21 61.36 102.68 | wind (inches)
260 139 0.615 2800 > 0.00 3.14 13.38 32.20 61.52 103.35 | wind (inches)
6.5CM 0.585 2810 > 0.00 3.29 14.08 34.04 65.31 110.06 | wind (inches)
308 155 0.508 2900 > 0.00 3.66 15.82 38.68 75.13 127.84 | wind (inches)
308 175 FED 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 4.27 18.56 45.74 89.14 150.37 | wind (inches)

338LM 300 0.77* 2700 > -0.00 0.76 2.70 5.05 7.82 11.12 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 0.684 2950 > -0.00 0.59 2.23 4.25 6.69 9.62 | drop (mil)
300RUM 240SMK 0.71* 2850 > -0.00 0.66 2.41 4.55 7.13 10.22 | drop (mil)
338LM 250 0.675 2950 > -0.00 0.59 2.24 4.27 6.73 9.70 | drop (mil)
7RM 168 0.643 3050 > -0.00 0.54 2.08 4.01 6.36 9.23 | drop (mil)
300RUM 210BER 0.633 3000 > -0.00 0.57 2.18 4.20 6.66 9.69 | drop (mil)
6.5-284 139 0.615 2950 > -0.00 0.60 2.29 4.41 7.03 10.27 | drop (mil)
300WM 210BER 0.633 2900 > -0.00 0.63 2.37 4.55 7.21 10.49 | drop (mil)
243WIN 115 DTAC 0.585 3100 > -0.00 0.52 2.05 4.00 6.42 9.44 | drop (mil)
708 168 VLD 0.643 2700 > -0.00 0.78 2.81 5.35 8.45 12.28 | drop (mil)
260 139 0.615 2800 > -0.00 0.71 2.60 4.99 7.94 11.61 | drop (mil)
6.5CM 0.585 2810 > -0.00 0.71 2.62 5.05 8.09 11.91 | drop (mil)
308 155 0.508 2900 > -0.00 0.66 2.53 4.98 8.16 12.33 | drop (mil)
308 175 FED 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 0.87 3.17 6.24 10.28 15.61 | drop (mil)


The first three loads have this for recoil (on a 18# gun):
338LM/300: 11.5 FRE
7RM/180: 4.9 FRE
300RUM/240: 8.2 FRE

Going down a bit, the 6.5-284 has 2.9
243/115: 2.2 FRE
.260/139: 2.7 FRE

For reference, in the Colorado practical long-range shooting group, many have gone away from .308, .300, and 7RM to the .260 (or similar calibers) for great ballistics, low cost and recoil, and general easy "shootability."

At the 2008 Steel Safari (http://demigodllc.com/articles/colorado-multigun-steel-safari-2008/?p=1),

The .260 Remington was the dominant cartridge (32%) followed by .308 Winchester (26%), then 6XC (9%), and one each of .260-AI, .270 Winchester, .300WM, .243WIN, 6.5-06-AI, 6.5-06, 7 WSM, 7 RSAUM. The .264/6.5mm bore diameter was completely dominant (43%) followed by .30 (30%) and then 13% shooting .243 and .284.

browningguy
March 9, 2009, 10:23 PM
To be honest I'd be shooting light loads in the RUM, you just don't need that much velocity and the recoil will punish anyone. Something around 30-06 or even 300 Winnie velocity is all you need, and you'll get better barrel life. I use a 6.5-20 scope and for me that's the minimum, I wouldn't feel overscoped with an 8-32 at 1000.

maksim
March 10, 2009, 01:49 AM
not really sure of rifles, but can a nagant variant shoot this far effectively?

Utah1
March 10, 2009, 11:51 AM
Beerenginer, the barrel on that 300RUM will only go for about a 1000rds. I'd put that rifle in the safe and go pick up one in .308. I don't have any idea on your shooting background, but to get good at 1000yds, you'll need to have sent 1000's of rounds down range in order to get better at reading the conditions, etc... Even a 2-3mph wind at that distance starts messing with you.

.308 is alot cheaper and easier on the shoulder. You should be handloading your ammo as well, It will safe money in the long run, you can tailor it to your rifle, and in the case of the 300RUM, I don't beleive there are any factory target loadings. At a minimum you should be using the 190grSMK bullet fot the 300RUM.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 10, 2009, 01:14 PM
Do you still have the receipt on the .300 RUM? If so, trade it for a Savage 12 F Class PTR in 6.5-284 Norma, or a custom rifle in this or similar chambering. Failing that, you've gotten good advice above. Check out demigod and www.6mmbr.com websites. Don't skimp on glass or rings!

Zak, why do you think the 6.5-284 norma was not represented at the Colo. Steel Safari - any reason? :confused:

Zak Smith
March 10, 2009, 02:38 PM
No particular reason; we had its ballistic twins in the .260 Ackley, 6.5-06, and 6.5-06 Ackley. I know several people who use the .260 Ackley instead of the 6.5-284 because the former fits in a short action and feeds from AICS mags.

TxD11
March 10, 2009, 03:02 PM
Lotsa good 1000yd info here:
http://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg01.html

mljdeckard
March 10, 2009, 03:09 PM
I tried similar things with similar rifles, and what I found, at least in MY case, is that unless you can shoot ragged 1-2 inch ragged holes at 100 yards with a .22 and iron sights, you're wasting money buying anything more powerful.

bl4ckd0g
March 11, 2009, 04:03 PM
I'd focus on the optics first. I'd get an EGW 10 to 20 minute one piece mount with Burris XTR rings. You can overboard and spend much more. Zak also had a good breakdown on quality scopes, search it. You can't go wrong with IOR, Nightforce, US Optics, or Zeiss- or sell a kidney and get the new Schmidt & Bender military scope. I feel that clarity and adjustment repeatability is more important than the zoom level, especially in the hot and humid South.

Leave the muzzle alone, unless you have a damaged crown that needs to be cut again.

If you're a handloader, know your twist rate and tailor loads around it. You can always download your powder charges if you're working on recoil tolerance.

Also, get the Wind Book, or another long range shooting text that covers wind doping and mirage reading.

jbech123
March 11, 2009, 04:42 PM
not really sure of rifles, but can a nagant variant shoot this far effectively? The bullet will go that far, just depends what your definition of accurate is. If you'd be happy hitting a 4x8 sheet of plywood most of the time, it would certainly be effective. But if you were looking for a reasonable level of precision, say to be somewhat competitive at a local F-Class match against guys shooting quality bolt guns with good glass, you'd find yourself at a disadvantage.

MTMilitiaman
March 11, 2009, 05:39 PM
First of all, welcome to the forum. Lots of information to be gleamed here.

Long range shooting is fun and addictive. My brother bought an AR-50 and topped it with a Nightforce 8-32x56 with part of his sign-on bonus. Unfortunately, as he has been in the Army the past 4 years, we really haven't gotten the change to sight it in and ring it out. All we've done is some pretty informal shooting out to 1200-1300 yards. He gets out soon and we'll no doubt get a lot more involved in the long range shooting game when he does.

I would have gone with the .338 Ultra Mag over the .300 if I had the choice. But the .300 RUM is more than capable of getting you out to 1000 yards and beyond when properly set up. My dad has a custom .338 RUM built on a Rem M700 dropped in a bedded McMillan stock with a 30 inch Lilja barrel. He's getting 3100 fps with a 250 gr SMK. Again, we've mostly just done informal shooting at rocks on various hillsides out to 800 yards, but that bullet wastes very little time getting to that range. The rifle is very accurate and as the .338 RUM is the ballistic equivalent of the .338 Lapua, there is little doubt the rifle is capable of twice that range if we find a suitable range that would allow us to shoot that far.

I've long wished Remington would offer the Sendero in left hand. As a beginning long range rifle, it is one of the better options available from a factory rifle. My only complaint with the setup as it comes would be the HS Precision stock, and this isn't related to the quality or performance of the stock so much as the policies of the company. HS Precision pissed off a lot of people with their endorsement by FBI assassin and murder Lou Horiuchi. Based purely on that, I would probably drop the rifle in a McMillan, which I feel is a slightly better stock anyways.

My main advice would be don't skimp on optics. I'd recommend a Leupold LR/T 4.5-14 or 6.5-20, or a 3.5-15 or 5.5-22 Nightforce NXS on a stout mounting system such as a Badger Ord, SEI (my bro used them on his .50), or the ring and base systems offered by Leupold (namely the Mk IV) or Nightforce. It probably won't be necessary to get an inclined base for 1000 yards, but if you entertain the possibility of shooting beyond 1000 yards you may want to get a base with 20 to 40 MOA of incline to allow the elevation adjustment to reach out to and beyond a mile.

A muzzle brake is purely personal preference but you may find it helps if you intend to shoot 30+ rounds in a sitting. Reducing recoil also makes it easier to get on target faster after the shot and will allow you to spot your shots better. It also increases noise and blast, and firing signature. Weigh the advantages and disadvantages and make your choice.

For bullets, I'd look into the Sierra Matchkings and Berger VLDs from 190 to 220 grs.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 11, 2009, 06:07 PM
By the way, my still (relatively noobish) little pet theory on the whole "long distance caliber choice" thing vis a vis brakes & recoil & distance (& bullet BCs & velocity) is this:

As a starting set of premises, I don't like recoil, but yet I *really* don't like brakes. Not only do brakes give you an incredible blast, they can also be a tactical disadvantage to you, by giving away your position (blowing up dust). But you need low recoil to practice efficiently and comfortably to gain skill. Therefore, seems to me that:

You should stick with a 6mm, .257, or 6.5 mm cartridge of some sort UNLESS and UNTIL it won't get the job done (and that means past 1,000 yards), and then and ONLY then, if you need to step up, you may as well step up ALL the way to a round that has so much recoil that it NEEDS a brake to be comfortable at all, since, as long as you're going to have the resulting blast (and yet reduced recoil) of a brake, you MAY AS WELL go all the way to at least a .338 magnum, and preferably a .416 barrett, or .50 BMG.

So, seems to me to be a better idea to skip the 7mms and .30 cals and 8mms - they are too high recoil to be comfortable without a brake, no better at 1000 yards than a 6.5 chambering (which is the farthest all but the smallest fraction of folks will ever shoot anyway), and too LITTLE gun to justify a brake. They are in the "un-sweet spot" between recoil and brake justification (and BC-MV combo factor), particularly .30 cals - including all the many popular .300 maggies - and 8mms!

So, to me, best bet is to go 6.5mm to 1,000 yards, then if you need to go 1,500 yards or more, step up to a .338 magnum with brake (with the .338 bullets' incredible BCs), or better yet, a .416 or .50 with brake.

A 6.5 cartridge can hit a man-sized target fairly easily AND kill a man-sized creature easily at 1000 yards if you practice and know what you're doing and use the right components.

Zak Smith
March 11, 2009, 07:20 PM
Dr.THW,

I have a few disagreements.

You should stick with a 6mm, .257, or 6.5 mm
.257 is a poor caliber for long-range use because currently there essentially zero high-BC match bullets. This is unfortinate; I think the .25-08 would be a great long-range cartridge if we had a 0.6-0.62 BC bullet for it.

So, seems to me to be a better idea to skip the 7mms and .30 cals and 8mms - they are too high recoil to be comfortable without a brake, no better at 1000 yards than a 6.5 chambering (which is the farthest all but the smallest fraction of folks will ever shoot anyway), and too LITTLE gun to justify a brake. They are in the "un-sweet spot" between recoil and brake justification (and BC-MV combo factor), particularly .30 cals - including all the many popular .300 maggies - and 8mms!
You're right on the .30's and 8mm's, but wrong on 7mm. It is the next sweet spot, and it's arguable "sweeter" than the .338. The 7mm RM (or 7 WSM) shooting 180's has less than one more inch of wind drift at 1250 yards (see chart above) than a .338 LM shooting 300gr SMKs-- while having less than 50% its recoil (FRE in a 18# gun). It's also about a mil and a half flatter at that distance.

step up to a .338 magnum with brake (with the .338 bullets' incredible BCs), or better yet, a .416 or .50 with brake.
I am a .338LM fan. I like shooting it, and I've shot thousands of rounds of it through my AI. Shooting .338LM is a lot more expensive than shooting the smaller 6.5mm calibers, and even with a brake, it has more recoil. But the .50 takes it to a whole new level. Ignoring the gun cost, shooting 50 or the .416 is on the order of 5x more expensive than .338LM to shoot (which itself is probably 2x shooting the .260). Recoil is at least 3x more than the .338LM (FRE comparing an 18# .338 to a 35# .50). I have shot .50 quite a bit, and I actually have plans to acquire a .416 barrel for my AW50 at some point. However, these are super-expensive setups for pretty specialized and limited applications.

I do disagree with the rejection of the muzzle brake, in general. A well-designed muzzle brake will drastically reduce the recoil, increase report volume somewhat, and not create a huge dust cloud (the AI-AW and Sako TRG military rifles ship with brakes). In any caliber, even shooting .260 from an 18# gun, I prefer shooting a brake to not shooting one. However, my favorite muzzle device is a sound suppressor, which both reduces recoil (as good as a brake for calibers less than .338) and suppresses the report.

If we go back to the Steel Safari data, I would estimate 25% used suppressors, 50% had brakes, and the last 25% had a plain muzzle.

Fat_46
March 11, 2009, 10:02 PM
I'll throw my 2 cents in at a bargain price of free!

I recently aquired a 280Rem, and am finding it to be everything I wanted in a long range cartridge.

I'm currently limited to 100 yards due to snow depth at my long range area, but Berger 180gr VLDs seated to just touch the lands is giving me 5 round groups measuring right at .66 inches. I still have a ton of variables I need to sort out when I can shoot longer range, but initial testing is very promising.

The rifle was purchased strictly for use in the prairie dog fields, and felt recoil is very low off a front rest and rear rabbit bag. Granted, this is a 14 pound rifle, but I'd equate it to my .243 sporter in terms of felt recoil, and QuickLoad shows it should have enough oomph to attempt the 1k shots comfortably.

1858
March 11, 2009, 11:31 PM
So, seems to me to be a better idea to skip the 7mms and .30 cals and 8mms - they are too high recoil to be comfortable without a brake, no better at 1000 yards than a 6.5 chambering

I don't have any problem shooting my .300 Win Mag all day long. It has a 26" barrel and no muzzle brake but it lives in an AICS stock so recoil is very manageable. Despite the popularity of the 6.Xmm flat-shooting calibers, how about bullet energy on target? If you calculate the bullet energy at 1000 yards of the calibers/bullets/BCs/MVs listed by Zak and sort them from highest to lowest this is what you get ... two distinct groups.

Bullet energy at 1000 yards (6.5CM omitted since no bullet weight given)

338LM (300gr) 1913 ft-lb
338LM (250gr) 1715 ft-lb
300RUM (240gr) 1601 ft-lb
300 RUM (210gr) 1391 ft-lb
300WM (210gr) 1279 ft-lb
7RM (180gr) 1253 ft-lb
.44 Mag (240gr) 1200 ft-lb --- MUZZLE ENERGY based on MV of 1500 fps
7RM (168gr) 1182 ft-lb

708 (168gr) 876 ft-lb
6.5-284 (139gr) 852 ft-lb
260 (139gr) 749 ft-lb
243WIN (115gr) 747 ft-lb
308 (155gr) 696 ft-lb
308 (175gr) 639 ft-lb

As a point of reference I included a 240gr bullet fired from a .44 Magnum at a brisk 1500 fps resulting in about 1200 ft-lb of muzzle energy.

I won't be getting rid of my .300 Win Mag anytime soon. With more bullet energy at 1000 yards than the muzzle energy of a .44 Magnum (240gr) and manageable recoil, I consider it to be an effective, accurate and affordable choice and certainly more practical (real-world application) than the 6.Xmm offerings. However, it's disappointing to see that the venerable .308 is kind of lagging behind the pack at 1000 yards.

:)

Lazuris
March 12, 2009, 11:27 AM
I'd grab a .308 and go to town with that. We shoot 308 all day long to a 1000 yards and we can do it with out the searing pain that a 300wm/rum delivers after so many shots. I shoot the 175smk's with lapua brass and 44.6g varget and it gets to 1000yds all day long. Another big plus is that 308 is cheap versus 300wm/rum.

Granted, the .308 does not have near the energy at a 1000yds as the 300 does but if your just punching paper or hitting steel who cares. Now we shoot the 300's and 338LM's out to 1500-2000 yards. But to be honest that's a damn hard shot.

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