Actual Shootout against armed killers.


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Proud Boer
March 9, 2009, 03:54 AM
Those of us who enjoy firearms in general and handguns in particular usually spend a lot of time practicing for the day we need to defend our loved ones and ourselves against attack. I am one of those individuals who have been fascinated by firearms and shooting since 10 years old, starting with my first BB gun. Since 1983 I've been a regular pistol and revolver shooter, competing over the years in Cowboy Action Shooting, Defensive Pistol Shooting as well as Practical Pistol Shooting.

Cowboys, Boers and the history of the rugged individuals who have invented our great modern world, have always interested me. In South Africa violent crime is high and therefore I am grateful for my mindset of self-reliance as I now live in the heart of the current day "wild west".

On the 8th of May 2008, I faced off a gang of three armed goblins who in the weeks preceding my attack, had robbed and killed numerous victims. These scumbags attacked me in front of my wife and daughter in the drive of my house at 20h00. I had just returned from a formal business function to launch the head office of a new dental insurance in Cape Town and was wearing a tuxedo and therefore only carrying single action .22 Magnum N.A.A. revolver. They wanted my house keys as well as the keys to my new Mercedes Benz SUV which I was driving. With their firearms pointed at me, I drew mine (thank God for years of practice), and shot the apparent leader of that gang in the chest - he screamed like a stuck pig and staggered backwards. The first thing I did was run for cover. As the other two were only about 20 feet away from me, bullets rained down on me as I hid momentarily behind a tree in my drive. In this exchange I was hit in the left arm (but actually felt nothing) and I returned fire hitting the first one of the two remaining goblins in the groin. He ran away to the getaway car standing in the road, shouting and crying and shooting into the air like a drunk Mexican officer during the Battle of the Alamo. There was one left besides the one who I shot first still staggering around.He still had his gun in hand and tried to point it again in my direction. I gave him another round to the chest and he disappeared to the getaway vehicle, fatally wounded as I was to find out in the days that followed. The last one had to run past me to get out of my drive and being the coward that these scum normally are, couldn't quite muster the courage. As I pointed my revolver and fired at him, the revolver blew up in my hand and I had no choice but to take him on bare handed. I smacked him to the ground by punching him in the face as the fact that I was now unarmed seemed to give him some courage. As he fell, he pulled off a shot and hit me in the right arm. He then turned and ran as he realised I was ready to fight to the death and he wasn't feeling well with a smashed nose.

My wife, at this stage, had taken my .45 A.C.P. out and passed it to me through the window, giving me clear instructions to finish them off. They got away only with my bullets in them and in pain and I was lucky enough to win the fight.

What did I learn from this?

1. Always carry a gun no matter how small it may be. Even when the last thing you expect is to be attacked, don't let your logic of statistical probability of not being in mortal danger lull you into a false sense of security.

2. Remember that in a gun fight - cover is king!

3. Practice regularly to allow for the advantage of competent surprise,
AND
most importantly, if you want to win a gun fight, the most important factor is resolve and commitment. You have to have the inner courage to decide in a split second that you are going to win the fight irrespective of the consequences and then carry out that plan with determination and courage that surprises and stuns your "would be" attackers.

I hope that the above sheds some light and gives some valuable insight into a real life gun fight. I would like to hear from others on this forum who have experienced the same or similar situations.

Proud Boer.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=vn20080511084250123C224954&set_id=1&click_id=13&sf=

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Kind of Blued
March 9, 2009, 04:14 AM
Wow. First of all, I'm glad you survived the incident and that I'm able to say "Welcome". I can't imagine having anything more motivating during a life-or-death fight than your wife and child looking on. I'm especially glad that they didn't have to see evil overcome their husband and father.

I thank you for sharing with us, as it is something that can truly be learned from, but at the same time may be difficult to recount. I've luckily never had to so much as draw or point a gun as a result of another's actions, but I'm smart enough to realize that I've just been lucky so far. Even though I've never had the cause for one, I've adopted your first piece of advice and carry a gun (or two) every day.

You may find this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=345595&highlight=in+self-defense%3F) interesting. Many folks on THR have recounted their experiences here. They may have been misfortunate, but thanks to their preparedness, nearly all of them ended well.

P.S. I'm curious to know what your attackers were armed with. You've sure given me a new respect for the .22 Magnum!

ACBMWM3
March 9, 2009, 04:21 AM
That is quite a story. Ive been to SA and other places like Brazil and let me tell you if I could have carried there you bet I would have been.
Luckily in Brazil we ran with a security team because the CEO of the company I was with had a lot of death threats.

just wanted to mention if you know what Boer means, its nothing racist. And neither is Goblin, heck its a standard Halloween word our kids say.

Proud Boer
March 9, 2009, 06:50 AM
Kind of Blued,

The goblins were armed with Tokarev 7.63x21 military type pistols (as used by communist armies during the cold war). They fired 12 rounds at me combined.

The 22mag N.A.A sure saved my life and if/when I move to the U.S.A. one day (I love the South West and visit it annually) or when South Africa becomes safer, I will again carry one again.Here in South Africa, I now feel safer with my Star .45 A.C.P.,which has been my regular/daily carry gun since 1990. It is also my Defensive Pistol Gun.

I know that I would have killed all three of the goblins had I have been carrying it that night. I was "outclassed" but not "outgunned" that night. If I lived in Dodge City in the mid 1800s I would recommend a Walker Colt above Derringer for the same reason.

Shung
March 9, 2009, 07:09 AM
wow, what a story. Glad that you are ok !

So in the end you did kill only 1 of the guys ? were the others caught ?

Didnt you fear they would come back for revenge ?

Proud Boer
March 9, 2009, 07:21 AM
Shung,
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=13&set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080509062726622C293344


The police came back to me a few days later to collect my gun for ballistics. The gun is blown to bits so they brought it back with no tests. Apparently the body they found had two .22 holes in it and nine warrants for arrest, 4 for murder. They said they are closing their files! The others were all arrested as part of a syndicate of 61. They are in jail and will be after trial for life or long sentences. The Police have been great and fully supportive of me.

I doubt they or their connections will ever come back. These types of cowards never take risk when they are guaranteed a good fight, which they now know I will give them!

BlacklabelOP
March 9, 2009, 07:24 AM
This whole story is fake

/end

Proud Boer
March 9, 2009, 07:32 AM
BlacklabelOP

FYI:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=vn20080511084250123C224954&set_id=1&click_id=13&sf=

loneviking
March 9, 2009, 08:22 AM
Fake? No doubt as I can't see any way that a .22 is going to be blown to pieces. The.22 doesn't have enough power and even if it did, the gun would be largely intact even if it was damaged.

Proud Boer
March 9, 2009, 08:36 AM
loneviking,

The cylinder has a hole blown in it. The topstrap is detached from the frame. The locking rod of the cylinder is sheared off. The frame is cracked and bent. A 22 magnum operates at pretty high pressures. My arms have healed o.k. from the 7.62 rounds but I still have metal filings in my hand from the .22.mag. They slowly surface and pop out!

Mp7
March 9, 2009, 08:53 AM
except for the connotations of your chosen username
and the slur-term goblins - i find it an interesting story.


If you haven´t read what the THR guidelines
are - do it, before the mods read´em to ya.

Proud Boer
March 9, 2009, 09:19 AM
MP 7,

Thank you for the comments. Goblin is a standard term,initiated by Col Jeff Cooper to label an evil doer. It has no other meanings or overtones. I never mentioned the color of my attackers once and in fact still haven't.

Boer is a term given to a particular group of South Africans, from pioneering heritage, who blazed a trail north into South Africa and ultimately founded the Boer Republics. They ultimately fought British Imperialism here in South Africa between 1899 and 1902. My Great Grandfather was a Boer General in that war. I am proud of that heritage. That heritage goes back long before South Africa lost its way politically as that only started in the 1930's.

THE MODERN BOER

"Take a community of Dutchmen of the type of those who defended themselves for fifty years against all the power of Spain at a time when Spain was the greatest power in the world.

Intermix with them a strain of those inflexible French Huguenots, who gave up home and fortune and left their country forever at the time of the revocation of the edict of Nantes.

The product must obviously be one of the most rugged, virile unconquerable races ever seen upon earth.

Take this formidable people and train them for seven generations in constant warfare under which no weakling could survive, place them so that they acquire exceptional skill with weapons and horsemanship, give them a country which is eminently suited to tactics of the huntsman, the marksman and the rider.

Then finally put a finer temper upon their military qualities by a dour fatalistic Old Testament religion and an ardent and consuming patriotism.

Combine all these qualities and all these impulses in one individualand you have the modern BOER."

Arthur Conan Doyle. 1902 The Great Boer War

Regards PB

Birddog1911
March 9, 2009, 09:19 AM
I don't see what is wrong with the username-Boer? Is there something wrong with that?

Before I condemn the slur goblins, I suspect that this could be a matter of translation, not derogatory.

As far as a .22 Mag NAA blowing up, wouldn't surprise me.

DHJenkins
March 9, 2009, 09:33 AM
How is "goblins" a slur? They're in Lord of the Rings, for Pete's sake!

Jesus, has everyone lost their mind?

BTW, great job Boer! I don't care what you call them.

blkbrd666
March 9, 2009, 09:55 AM
If you haven´t read what the THR guidelines
are - do it, before the mods read´em to ya.

What rule did he break???

Mal H
March 9, 2009, 10:49 AM
Proud Boer has broken no THR rules, but some others have come quite close to doing that. Let's keep the "fake story" comments to yourselves until you can prove otherwise.

I have personally done some checking using info not privy to others here, and so far most details of his story check out.

Why anyone would think the terms goblins, gremlins, or Boer are disallowed is a mystery to me.

Proud Boer - if you can supply a picture of that blown up .22 NAA, I think that would help a lot.

twoclones
March 9, 2009, 10:50 AM
I don't see what is wrong with the username-Boer? Is there something wrong with that?

It's my understanding that Boer is the Dutch word for Farmer. "Proud Farmer" is offensive???

Nice touch getting the newspaper to support your 'fake' story ;)

22 Mag uses a max pressure of 25,600 psi. which is a lot higher than .38 Special. Exploding gun is plausible.

Goblins? I'd call them worse than that...

twoclones
March 9, 2009, 10:56 AM
Proud Boer - if you can supply a picture of that blown up .22 NAA, I think that would help a lot.

I'd love to see that since .22 mag NAA is my *nice clothes ccw*

Flea
March 9, 2009, 10:58 AM
Impressive ordeal... glad you came out on top!

The 7.63x21 is a Mannlicher cartridge, not used by the Soviets.
7.62x25 was the Tokarev cartridge.

I was actually looking at one of those in a .22 magnum this past weekend for a pocket gun! Guess I'll just stick with fullsize.

HardKnox
March 9, 2009, 11:05 AM
To all you who think the mini is a reliable weapon, that doesn't malfunction, i have a naa companion that has a swollen cylinder from nothing but 5 by the book shots, these guns are NOT meant to be fired. <-period end of story

mbt2001
March 9, 2009, 11:07 AM
Did you call NAA and say that your bloody gun blew up in the middle of a gunfight and damn near cost me my life??? I am sending it back to you and want a NON-POS in return.

Well, anyway, good shooting. Amazingly good shooting. Fast, accurate Center Mass hits end gun fights. Remember that time honred maxim.

TexasRedneck
March 9, 2009, 11:07 AM
This whole story is fake

BlacklabelOP - with all due respect, do you realize that you've publicly called the man a liar with no cited proof of your position? In many places, such an accusation is not only rude, but tantamount to "fighting words". While I was a bit suspect initially, the (albeit limited) online research I could do indicated that at very least an incident such as was described DID occur. Surely you should have done at least that much prior to making your post, eh?

TexasRifleman
March 9, 2009, 11:09 AM
Why anyone would think the terms goblins, gremlins, or Boer are disallowed is a mystery to me.

Some people simply look for things to get upset about I guess.

Good story, reinforces the old saying "first rule of a gunfight...bring a gun, any gun".

Glad the OP is alive and kicking.

The lack of education, manners, and general high road behavior here is disappointing.

mbt2001
March 9, 2009, 11:12 AM
In many places, such an accusation is not only rude, but tantamount to "fighting words".

I think that we Texans are (for the most part) the only ones that still feel that way.

ravencon
March 9, 2009, 11:18 AM
I think that we Texans are (for the most part) the only ones that still feel that way.

I'm from Massachusetts and I'd see them as fighting words if they were directed at me. ;)

But, calling someone a liar from behind a screen name is a low risk endeavor.

mbt2001
March 9, 2009, 11:28 AM
But, calling someone a liar from behind a screen name is a low risk endeavor.

Sadely this is true...

My Advice:

Move to Texas! All of you who still believe this, come to Texas, where women do their hair and makeup even to run basic errands, where carrying a rifle in your truck isn't cause for an interdiction, where Mexican food is really spicy and (most importantly) many companies are still hiring!

:)

SsevenN
March 9, 2009, 11:34 AM
Good story, glad you are alive.:what:

How bad were your arms hurt from the 7.62x21's?

Vern Humphrey
March 9, 2009, 11:34 AM
What should we call people who try to rob and kill us? "Angles of mercy?"

Dragk913
March 9, 2009, 11:38 AM
I do apologize for my comments, while I may be a skeptic - I have no place to try to discredit you, as I do not know you.
As I stated before, I am very glad you and yours made it through without getting too badly injured.

I hope myself, and others' comments have not been too inconsiderate as to keep you from posting more on this awesome forum.


Be careful!
Drag

TexasRedneck
March 9, 2009, 11:48 AM
Drag, you're free to challenge anyone you want - but if you did such to me, you'd not do it again. That's not meant as a challenge, or "macho talk", but rather as a statement. The last time someone called me a liar, I was less than kind in my response, and frankly embarassed them beyond their wildest imagination. Never lifted a hand - there's more than one way to "fight" someone. And in MOST states, any self-respecting individual that's called a liar WILL take umbrage to such, IMO.

Delford
March 9, 2009, 11:57 AM
Drag
read the OPs link and the previous posts. http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=13...2726622C293344

batjka
March 9, 2009, 11:58 AM
Well, that NAA saved Boer's life before blowing up. So we must give that gun a little credit...

Boer, so you fired 4 shots in total? 2 hits on one guy, 1 hit on another and the "blowing up" shot? That's some impressive shooting! Any idea what might have caused your mini to disintegrate like that? Was it an obstructed barrel? If you had fired 5 times and it blew up on the 5th, then possible the 4th shot was a dud and a bullet was stuck in the barrel. That's the only thing I can think off.
So much for all the condescending talk about minis and how the bad guys will laugh about it. Guess the guys from this story didn't laugh.

Boer, if you don't mind I'll post this story on NAA forums. I'm pretty sure you're entitled to a free replacement for your gun. Have you talked to them about it?

HardKnocks, is your companion .22lr or .22Mag version? NAA should replace your cylender for free as well. I read many stories of people loading their Companions with smokeless and guns being fine after hundreds of such loadings.
If you want to get rid of it I might give it a shot.

amflyer
March 9, 2009, 12:06 PM
There is nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism. Especially on the "World Wide Interweb"...

Calling someone a liar is one thing, saying you don't believe their story in such a situation is another. If I had to fight or mentally bombast every person that didn't believe the things I was telling them, I would be too busy to do anything else. Plus, opinions are like...well you know. Call me a liar; I don't give a crap. I, and the people that know me know better.

The OP came to the board, wrote his story, and posted a link to a an article that is pretty similar. The way it is written kind of makes one wonder. If true, it is truly an incredible bit of luck that he wasn't seriously hurt or killed. The verbiage he uses does read like a backward generated fictionalization from the story he posted a link to in the original post.

Perhaps a better approach would have been: "Here is link to an interesting story, and it's about me. Want to hear what I learned form it?"

TexasRedneck
March 9, 2009, 12:27 PM
Well, mebbe ah was jest brought up different, but to me it's like accusin' someone of usin' a "summer name".<look it up, yankees...:D>

mbt2001
March 9, 2009, 12:34 PM
Fine, don't believe it, call the dude a troll. But don't call someone a liar.

Zundfolge
March 9, 2009, 12:43 PM
Based on the linked news story and Mal H's post I'd say there is a greater than 50% chance the story is true as presented.

At any rate the story clearly happened to SOMEONE (even if not Proud Boer himself).


So Boer, can y'all get KelTecs in South Africa? I'm thinking my wife's little P3AT would have been a little more effective than that little .22mag

If I lived in Dodge City in the mid 1800,s I would recommend a Walker Colt above Derringer for the same reason.
Ironically Dodge City in the mid 1800s was actually safer than it is today (and clearly safer than SA)

Grey_Mana
March 9, 2009, 12:43 PM
Every story of courage, valor, or manliness must be fake. And I can quote personal experience to back that up. Guns are only ever used to commit suicide, to accidentally kill loved ones while cleaning, and to beat the Axis Powers. All this talk about hunting, self-defense, and ongoing conflicts is just a big conspiracy by Reagan-Bush-Dole-Cheney-Bush-McCain. Hope & Change!

DeathByCactus
March 9, 2009, 12:49 PM
Well, I enjoyed the story. Not many people can write out a story like that and make it fun to read. I must admit, at first I was skeptical, but I have no reason to think this is false. Good work and glad you are still alive friend. :)

theotherwaldo
March 9, 2009, 12:56 PM
Glad to hear that you're healing up well. Those 7.62x25s tend to make clean holes.

Standing between the attacker and the loved ones - that's what a man is for.

chilie
March 9, 2009, 12:58 PM
There are some here who need to read THR TOS, and it is not the Proud Boer. The story sounds plausible. How many here have been to cape town south africa? do you know the tensions and problems that face tht county everyday? It's amazing that some of you seek to destory someone's story and credbility with little more than your own thoughts and opinions. If you don't know for a fact that this isn't true than please keep your skepticism to yourself. You are furthering only the image of you being vastly ignorant to how things work outside of the US's borders.

Boer i'm glad you survied and were able to take a disadvantaged situation and make the best of it. Call em gremlins, goblins, devils or just plain jerks, but there is nothing overtly offensive about any of those names. Live and let live, call em how you see em. Please fellow High Roaders, take the high road.

Yositomo Wiskisito
March 9, 2009, 01:14 PM
This whole story is fake

/end

A little quick on the draw?

I believe you can/should express your opinion about the story. Even if the story sounds "fishy" to you. Its all a matter of respect. Having people post fake stuff in the forums is not unheard off. They should make a protocol for this stuff.

Anyway. Like someone wrote. Choose the highroad and respect the other people in the board. KISS - don't write something you wouldn't say to someone face to face.

Sam Adams
March 9, 2009, 01:25 PM
Proud Boer - kudos to you for being able to think on your feet, and for protecting yourself and your family. While none of us would really like to be in a similar situation, we all hope that IF we were to be, we'd do at least as well as you.

As for the accusation of "slur," etc. - utter bilge. "Goblin" is, as others have pointed out, a well-known term for "bad guy" coined by Col. Jeff Cooper. "Boer" is as offensive as "Irishman," "Russian," "Italian" or a whole host of names that people call themselves based on where they are (or their families were) from...and I can see nothing inherently wrong with being proud of one's origins.

Phydeaux642
March 9, 2009, 01:26 PM
Move to Texas!

No thanks. My ex-wife lives there.

amflyer
March 9, 2009, 01:34 PM
No thanks. My ex-wife lives there.

All of them, or just this one? Great song, by the way.

Matrix187
March 9, 2009, 01:49 PM
Not sure if anyone said this, but: Practice/skill is far more important than caliber, evident by this story.

Leanwolf
March 9, 2009, 02:21 PM
PROUD BOER - "... I had just returned from a formal business function to launch the head office of a new dental insurance in Cape Town and was wearing a tuxedo and therefore only carrying single action .22 Magnum N.A.A. revolver."

Proud Boer, I have a suggestion. I imagine you have some very good tailors in your metropolitan cities. If I were you, I'd have a good tailor craft my tuxedo so I could wear my Star .45 ACP, in a good concealment holster.

I lived in Los Angeles for 35 years, and knew several people who were often at functions where they wore tuxedos. They'd had fine tailors create their tuxedos so they could wear medium sized, larger caliber handguns in good concealment holsters. Even when I knew they were "carrying," I could not tell they were wearing a handgun.

A good tailor can do it, while measuring you as you wear your handgun. ;)

As for your use of "goblins" to describe vicious criminals, you were far more subtle than I would have been. My term for vicious criminals is scatalogical and very crude. :fire:

Doesn't bother me a bit.

As I said on the tailored tuxedo, just a suggestion.

Good luck.

L.W.

Gamera
March 9, 2009, 02:30 PM
Wow I'm glad it turned out well. I've been to South Africa and parts of it are indeed like the wild west, so as of now I have no reason to doubt his story.

CaptMac
March 9, 2009, 02:32 PM
A .22 in your hand when you need it is far better than having two .45's at home in a drawer. :)

MT GUNNY
March 9, 2009, 02:42 PM
Could it have been that your pistol Blew up, Because it was hit buy a Bullet?

Jungo2
March 9, 2009, 03:26 PM
Quote:
In many places, such an accusation is not only rude, but tantamount to "fighting words".
I think that we Texans are (for the most part) the only ones that still feel that way.

I'm Italian and I still feel that way;)

...glad the OP was able to protect himself and his family.

SsevenN
March 9, 2009, 03:40 PM
"The duel will be set for tomorrow afternoon"

"Well why wait, the guard collected a whole mess of pistols on the way in!" :)

Duke of Doubt
March 9, 2009, 03:43 PM
Mt Gunny: "Could it have been that your pistol Blew up, Because it was hit buy a Bullet?"

That was my hunch, as well. It's rare, but it happens.

Calling a story fake is not quite the same as calling a man out in public as a liar. On the other hand, I could offer a highly realistic and entertaining account of the aerial combat between Manfred von Richtofen and Lanoe Hawker, or for that matter the Battle of the Admiralties the night the Japanese attempted to cross the lagoon on barges and were greeted by leveled multiple-antiaircraft gunfire; doesn't mean I was the one actually there.

TexasRedneck
March 9, 2009, 03:55 PM
That was my thought - that either the cylinder was struck, or (however remote) perhaps a projectile/portion of struck and jammed into the barrel.

Either way, to go out of our way to challenge the veracity of the OP's account is rather low-brow, IMO.

Duke of Doubt
March 9, 2009, 04:00 PM
I agree. Odds are in favor of it being the guy, too. As Sean Connory's character said in "The Untouchables," "Who would claim to be that -- who was not?"

Phydeaux642
March 9, 2009, 04:25 PM
The name's Bond. James Bond.

Sage Thrasher
March 9, 2009, 04:35 PM
I used to live in Johannesburg. Very rough place. I'll never forget the Zulu and Afrikaans phrases for "Beware of Dog" because one or the other was written on almost every house compound wall. Many of my colleagues carried concealed handguns--and these were journalists! As I recall (Proud Boer may know), if you are entitled to own a firearm there, you are entitled to carry it whenever you please. That should be the rule everywhere, not just in the R.S.A. and VT--these kind of hijackings are more common some places than others, but this story could just as easily have happened in Phoenix or Seattle.

TRGRHPY
March 9, 2009, 04:49 PM
Am I the only one who noticed the part about the wife handing him the .45 and saying something to the effect of "Kill 'em all"?

THAT'S a cool wife.

Sorry to hear that you had to go through something like that.

Glad to hear that you and your family are ok.

Gee, whodathunk that a .22 could possibly be used as a self defense weapon? I thought that only .45s held that honor.

phoglund
March 9, 2009, 05:07 PM
Great job Boer. Decisive aggressive armed response trumps multiple opponents with superior arms but less resolve. Excellent outcome. Your wife must be very proud of her man. :D

doc540
March 9, 2009, 05:20 PM
I still want to know if and why that NAA "blew up".:confused:

Vern Humphrey
March 9, 2009, 05:28 PM
Proud Boer, I have a suggestion. I imagine you have some very good tailors in your metropolitan cities. If I were you, I'd have a good tailor craft my tuxedo so I could wear my Star .45 ACP, in a good concealment holster.
A while back, my wife grabbed me by the stacking swivel and dragged me into a men's store. While the gal was fitting the trousers, I shoved my right hand down inside the waistband and pushed a little out.

The gal fitting me said, "You wear a gun?"

rogerjames
March 9, 2009, 05:43 PM
I was "outclassed" but not "outgunned" that night.
I must disagree Boer. You were definitely "outgunned", but not "outclassed". Well... you did outgun the guys who had you outgunned. :D

TexasRedneck
March 9, 2009, 05:45 PM
Key here is that any gunfight you walk away from.....you won.

Odd Job
March 9, 2009, 06:16 PM
Aangename kennis, Boer.

I'm sure those okes are complaining about a bliksem with a rollie ;)

Like we used to say in Joburg: "Vat hom, Fluffie!"

Gelgoog
March 9, 2009, 06:24 PM
well NAA should at least send you 1 free replacement. then another one for endangering your life and a free t-shirt. Then $10,000 to use your story to market their product.

The Swede
March 9, 2009, 06:27 PM
OP: Great story. Too bad If this happened in my neck of the woods I would be in a bit of trouble. Well I guess I could use a whistle. That is what the state of Illinois recommends you use to fend off an attacker, burglar, etc. :rolleyes:



Yes some people have sure lost their minds.
What are we, a bunch of politically correct dimwits now?

Blacklabel, get a life.

TexasRedneck
March 9, 2009, 06:31 PM
Let's not presume the NAA failed out of hand - as others have noted, there may have been damage inflicted on it during the attack.

qwert65
March 9, 2009, 06:36 PM
Thats impressive shooting with a NAA

Phydeaux642
March 9, 2009, 07:51 PM
Well I guess I could use a whistle. That is what the state of Illinois recommends you use to fend off an attacker, burglar, etc.

Are you supposed to hit them with it or jam it in their eye?

Big Daddy Grim
March 9, 2009, 09:14 PM
Good job Boer thats it nuff said.

4Freedom
March 9, 2009, 09:20 PM
I have a Boer friend myself, and I can definately belive this story. This is everyday life ina country with the highest murder and robbery rates in the world. Wild West may be an understatement. The place is a warzone in a state of carnage. My friend who lives in Cape Town also had a shootout with some goblins and he wounded them and they ran for the hills. He is retired from the SA military and fought in the Angola war. He used his Glock 9mm and a 30-06 (on backup) in that battle. Unlike Proud Boer, he was prepared for them. These stories are not uncommon at all in this horrible place. Sadly, there is many stories with unhappy endings. Many Boers, as well as upper/middle calss South African blacks are massacred daily in this place. Look at the music star Lucky Dube who was gunned down in Johannesburg during a carjacking. I will say South African criminals get the award for bieng the most ruthless in the world. Proud Boer is lucky they didn';t just shoot him and his family and rob them. THat is also common in South Africa. The luckier ones are asked for their posessions, the unlucky ones are shot first and then just robbed.

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 06:55 AM
I have send Mal some "proof" that certain folks asked for and asked him to post those photographs.

On the issue around using the name Boer,I have this to say:

I love South Africa(and ALL its people) and I regard myself a Patriot.(I also love the U.S.A. and regard myself as an "undocumented" patriot)

The pioneers who blazed a trail and made South Africa what it is today in a disproportional way where indesputably the Boers.

Sure,like America,we lost our way now and again but,like America,our great country was invented by a bunch of wise,old,dead,white guys.As Africa's superpower, everybody has ultimately benefitted from Boer efforts.

I sure am proud of the things we have done well and glad we have fixed the things we made mistakes with,and we continue to do so today.

CWL
March 10, 2009, 07:38 AM
Welcome to THR Proud Boer!

I admire your fighting spirit! Glad you made it without any permanent injuries and that you took the initiative to defend yourself rather subject yourself to the whims of these goblins. I've not been to SA but I've read enough to know that you live in a dangerous land with merciless predators looking for a quick score.

My only question is that if your wife had time to get your .45ACP, why couldn't she have given you covering fire from the window? Just curious to know if your wife is included in your SD training regimen.

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 07:47 AM
CWL,
My wife ran to the safe to get the weapon in case I lost and these Goblins entered the house.The whole fight took maybe 20 seconds.By the time she arrived at the window,the Goblins had got into there getaway vehicle.Sadly,if I had lost,she would have had to face them inside my house.She does know how to shoot though and has the heart of a lion.You know the saying that the most dangerous piece of real estate on earth is the piece of land between a mother and her children!
P.B.

scubadown
March 10, 2009, 07:57 AM
Great story Proud Boer. You have a lot to be proud of!

SaxonPig
March 10, 2009, 08:32 AM
It's certainly a wild story but my policy is to believe what a man says until he proves to me that I should not. I accept the story as true with one small observation. The reference to the attackers as killers. Do you know for a fact that they had committed murder? If not, technically they are not killers.

I know from personal experience that the 22 Long Rifle is pathetic from a very short barrel. How about the 22 WMR? Has anyone chronograped this round from an NAA pistol?

Oro
March 10, 2009, 08:45 AM
All this scrutiny, and no one commented on what I thought was the best line of the original story:

shouting and crying and shooting into the air like a drunk Mexican officer during the Battle of the Alamo.

I kinda liked that line. So you guys make fun of Santa Anna's army in South Africa, too? Gotta love that...

SP - the linked article talks about the fact the attacker shot in the chest had four outstanding warrants for murder. Perhaps the author knew this already when he wrote his story, though he didn't know it at the time of the attack.

TexasRedneck
March 10, 2009, 08:47 AM
Remember that the account is written post-incident, so he has knowledge of their criminal histories. Frankly, I kinda like the fact that there's no plea-bargainin' on their sentences. :D

cassandrasdaddy
March 10, 2009, 08:52 AM
and is a good example of how mindset means so much.

there a quote attributed to an early texas ranger that goes. "theres no stopping a man who knows hes right and keeps coming at you." i tried to imagine my reaction to fighting and thinking i was all that was between my family and a theat. it does motivate a feller

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 09:12 AM
Oro,

Sure we make fun of Santa Ana's Army over here! If you ever came to the Free State(the part of South Africa I grew up in),you will think you are in Texas,Oklahoma or Kansas somewhere.Same culture,humor,music,food,hunting,pick up trucks etc,etc.

SP,

Not sure of the velocity but it shoots a flame out the front that makes it terrifying in the dark!

Marlin 45 carbine
March 10, 2009, 09:28 AM
glad you made it through OK and docked a robber/murderer of his ticket.
I carried a .22Mag dbl bbl derringer for years as a pocket gun - never had to pull it but came close. I swapped it for a .32acp semi-auto, more shots and little more power.

JNappula
March 10, 2009, 09:42 AM
My work mate sitting in the same office room with me used to live in Cape Town for couple of decades but moved back to Finland two years ago. Most of his SA friends have too emigrated elsewhere, to US, UK and specially to Australia.

Things seem to be pretty wild down there. Stay safe and stay strong!

bratch
March 10, 2009, 09:47 AM
Sure we make fun of Santa Ana's Army over here! If you ever came to the Free State(the part of South Africa I grew up in),you will think you are in Texas,Oklahoma or Kansas somewhere.Same culture,humor,music,food,hunting,pick up trucks etc,etc.

You must be pretty good people then:evil:;)

Congrats on surviving.

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 10:00 AM
South Africa is a very prosperous place with opportunity everywhere.The fact is it is more dangerous than the U.K.,Australia,Old Europe,The U.S.A. etc.
It is also a free place where the government are not able to regulate our lives or freedom much,unlike Europe,Australia etc.My forefathers never came here because it was safer than Europe.They came here because it had more opportunity and freedom for them.Nothing has changed!

I would rather look after my own safety than have ANY government do that for me anyway.I live well here and do well.I travel to the USA whenever I like(Europe I avoid,too many people,too little land,too many rules...)

I think I read somewhere about the Founding Fathers of America mentioning that trading in ones freedom for safety ain't worth it.Thats exactly how I feel.

Kentucky-roughrider
March 10, 2009, 10:49 AM
"I would rather look after my own safety than have ANY government do that for me anyway.I live well here and do well.I travel to the USA whenever I like(Europe I avoid,too many people,too little land,too many rules...)

I think I read somewhere about the Founding Fathers of America mentioning that trading in ones freedom for safety ain't worth it.Thats exactly how I feel. "

Well said sir, you seem to learn several lessons from that attack.

Calling someone a lair without proof are fighting words in Kentucky to.

bratch
March 10, 2009, 10:55 AM
I think I read somewhere about the Founding Fathers of America mentioning that trading in ones freedom for safety ain't worth it.Thats exactly how I feel.

Here you go.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security- Benjamin Franklin

Mal H
March 10, 2009, 11:20 AM
Proud Boer has sent me the pictures of the NAA .22 Magnum and of his arm. I have included two of each here. The other pictures he sent got a little too deeply into his personal life for this thread, so I won't include them (one was the hospital emergency room report which included his full name and the same date as the newspaper account). This should dispel any lingering doubts as to his veracity.


The blown up NAA .22 Magnum:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=94195
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=94196


His two arm wounds:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=94197
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=94198

SlamFire1
March 10, 2009, 11:40 AM
It is great to read of a successful defense against armed killers.

If you read or listen to international radio, South Africa has had a lot of these car jackings.

Most Americans are not even aware of the little drug war (which may topple that Government) which is going on south of the border, never mind the problems in SA.

The cylinder has a hole blown in it.The topstrap is detached from the frame.The locking rod of the cylinder is sheared off.The frame is cracked and bent.A 22 magnum operates at pretty high pressures.My arms have healed o.k. from the 7.62 rounds but I still have metal filings in my hand from the .22.mag.They slowly surface and pop out!

I never thought much of a .22 rimfire as a self defense weapon, though it obviously is better than nothing. I have shot these little NAA's, they are small, hard trigger pull, and the bullets did not land anywhere the sight picture.

After seeing the cylinder blow up, on a NAA used in a lethal situation, I don't intend to trade any of my 38 snubbies for one of these.

It is a sad comment on the lack of effectiveness of the .22LR, all the criminals that were hit ran off, but were capable of further violence. I assume the one that died simply bled out.

glockman19
March 10, 2009, 11:49 AM
Thanks for sharing.

SsevenN
March 10, 2009, 11:54 AM
Boer, you are very proficient with such a measley handgun, I commened you once again. Good shoot.

Zundfolge
March 10, 2009, 11:57 AM
Most revolvers are designed to redirect the blast of a catastrophic failure away from the shooter ... the NAA apparently not so much.

I've thought about one of these for a BUG too (that and they are just plain nifty) but I think I'll stick with a P3AT as a bug instead.

ezenbrowntown
March 10, 2009, 12:07 PM
Glad to see you made it out "O.K." (I doubt being shot is considered O.K., but it is much better than what could have happened.) I will say you have given much more credibility IMO to the smaller calibers. There is some truth to the "A gun beats NO gun" theory.

Thanks for sharing you experience/lessons learned with us. It is most appreciated. And if she doesn't know how to already, I get that wife trained to shoot too! Stuck behind a tree with your 22 mag, she should be laying down some fire to help you out!

AWP79
March 10, 2009, 12:10 PM
Good job great story to tell the grandkids.

batjka
March 10, 2009, 12:13 PM
I'm just trying to figure out what would be the cause of such catastrophic failure. From what I heard and read the NAAs are pretty tough and stand up well to the abuse.

How many rounds have you shot through this gun before? Have you had any previous problems with it?

I see one round in the cylinder still intact. So 4 shots had been fired over the course of the gun battle. Did you stick the barrel in the ground somehow obstructing it? Maybe it was hit by some fragments from the assailants' bullets?

Another theory would be an out of battery discharge. Meybe the trigger was pulled while the bullet was not completely alligned with the barrel? That's pretty far-fetched of course, but who knows.

Please share your thoughts on the cause of the blow-up.

Spyvie
March 10, 2009, 12:14 PM
Proud Boer, I am proud to be a member of the same forum as you!

Damn glad you're OK too.

Get your wife a rifle...

MikePGS
March 10, 2009, 12:21 PM
Wow Proud, glad to hear you came out on top :)

For the rest of us, is there anything that you think you should have done differently, ie anything that could help prepare the rest of us in case we are faced with the same thing? Thank you very much for sharing your story.

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 01:12 PM
MikePGS

There is something I learned and I failed there badly.That was being alert and aware of my surroundings.In the suburb where I live,there are no streetlamps,lots of trees and large erven.The goblins were parked outside in the road in their getaway vehicle.I never took the car to notice them.They got the jump on me because I was not paying attention to my surroundings.I did a fair amount of martial arts when younger and my coach always told me that the best block to use in a fight is to be two blocks away! Being aware could have made this possible.

P.B.

batjka
March 10, 2009, 01:17 PM
Proud Boer,

Is the barrel still intact? Any damage to it?

ar10
March 10, 2009, 01:25 PM
I'm glad it turned out in your favor. You were very lucky. I've read a lot about the violence in SA particularly the carjackings that seem to be going on all over SA.
A few years ago I read about a company that installed a type of 12g shotgun contraption in the side panels of cars and controlled by the driver specifically for carjackers. In SA carjacking has a much more violent meaning than here in the US.

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 01:27 PM
batjka,

The barrel seems o.k. but is badly nicked where the cylinder slammed against the frame.The locking rod is sheared clean off and the frame is bent from the force.The barrel looks strait but I am not sure.

MikePGS
March 10, 2009, 01:52 PM
Ahh thank you sir. :)

bratch
March 10, 2009, 01:56 PM
There is something I learned and I failed there badly.That was being alert and aware of my surroundings.In the suburb where I live,there are no streetlamps,lots of trees and large erven.

Do you have exterior lights around your house? If so did they help illuminate the threat once it was realized?

twoclones
March 10, 2009, 02:15 PM
Many thanks for the story and photos. Glad you prevailed in the battle!

I really like my NAA mini .22 mag but I'm thinking I should be looking for a new mouse gun...

Eagles6
March 10, 2009, 02:19 PM
Ya' done good Proud Boer. I too am curious about the failure of the NAA revolver. Looks like the head of the remaining round is blown off indicating an obstructed barrel or firing out of time with the cylinder not being lined up with the barrel.
Actually, looking closer at the picture, it looks like the bullet in the remaining case is still crimped in and doesn't appeared to have moved forward which would point toward a case failure. What ammo were you using?

Vern Humphrey
March 10, 2009, 02:20 PM
There is something I learned and I failed there badly.That was being alert and aware of my surroundings.

Something similar happened to me, about 15 years ago. I had my head up my fourth point of contact, got myself into a situation where a toad could approach me with impunity.

Fortunately, I didn't have to shoot -- I showed the toad my .45 and he hopped off at a high rate of speed.:D

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 02:30 PM
I never had good illumination before my ordeal.I do now.
I had fired about 300 rounds wil this gun before.always used CCI since owning it.

damien
March 10, 2009, 02:42 PM
Great story (the ending, at least). Such bad luck to have that gun blow up on you just when you needed it and after you had already proven it with 300 rounds. Any chance the round before the one that blew it was a squib and left the bullet in the barrel? that's a scenario one might notice on the range and not take another shot but not notice while under fire.

Eagles6
March 10, 2009, 02:42 PM
My revolver cylinder shows .097" between the tip of the projectile and the end of the cylinder with CCI Maximag HPs. The remaining round in the cylinder may show a bit of forward movement but is it enough to strike the frame if the cylinder is not lined up with the barrel? Do you plan to send the weapon back to NAA?
Thanks and good luck.

batjka
March 10, 2009, 03:03 PM
From reading the account, Boer fire 4 shots - 1 into the first attacker, one into the 2nd attacker, another one into the first attacker and the shot that blew up the gun.
So a third round could not have been a squib because the cops found two holes in the first attacker's body. The barrel is also intact, meaning that there was no barrel blockage.
That leaves us with two possibilities - a blocked chamber or a case failure. I doubt the case failure would cause such damage to the revolver. The cases are very thin and do not provide much support against exploding gases. Maybe the cylinder chamber got blocked with debris and the bullet had nowhere to go. Maybe the cylinder was hit by bullet fragments and damaged.
Another possibility is a double-loaded round. If reloaders make mistakes so could the ammo companies.
In any case I don't think NAA is at fault here. So don't get rid of yours just yet. It DID save the Boer's life that day after all.

Maybe this gun could be sent back to NAA and analyzed. Their reputation rests on cases like this.

Eyesac
March 10, 2009, 03:04 PM
Cheebis. Good for you PB! Sounds like a nasty fight, and I'm glad you and your family are ok.

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 03:05 PM
What caused the little gun to blow up is a mystery to me as well as a few local gunsmiths who have looked at it. I want to place on record that I do not hold it against N.A.A. in any way. That gun saved my life and possibly my family's too. N.A.A are a great company and great guys. I have been in contact with them and they are more than happy to replace it for me with a new one. Our gun laws mandate me to export it to them with a govt permit and import the new one with the same serial number. N.A.A would thus have to keep the old ,damaged one.

I would rather frame the damaged lifesaver together with the original newspaper article and hang it on my office wall. My Star PD has been my carry gun since 1990. I have fired 10,000+ round through it, it carries real easy and always being cocked and locked is rocket fast on draw to first shot.

It is the perfect carry gun here in South Africa,with all due respect to my lifesaving N.A.A.

I also love single action revolvers and love shooting them. I will gladly use one of mine for home defence should the need arise. My Uberti 1875 Outlaw in .357 mag rocks and rolls and never misses!

I plan to get a place in Kansas or Oklahoma sometime and a N.A.A. a regular item in my pocket them. If BHO does not spoil the fun.

bthest86
March 10, 2009, 03:14 PM
Boer, what are the laws regarding the carrying of firearms in South Africa?

chilie
March 10, 2009, 03:24 PM
PB-
Thank you again for the post-incident report on something this dynamic and harrowing. The pictures dispel any doubt for those naysayers and I thank you because it helped to visualize the catastrophic failure of the NAA. I have to marvel at your ability to get off well aimed shots with that diminuitive revolver, and successfully thwarting an attack on you and yours with a marginal caliber such as a 22 mag.
I agree 100 percent on your choice to carry something larger now, however. You combined a lot of skill with a little round and a little luck and were able to fight off 3 attackers. As a gambling man I'd say you just hit a great parlay or were dealt 4 of a kind right there. But you and I both know luck won't infinetley be there. And that is when your great skill and proven cababilites of any number of service rounds available will stack the odds so far in your favor it will be a winning proposition. If it were me in SA though I'd need at least a platoon of marines with me wherever I went. :D
Glad to have you aboard! Hope you learn as much from your stay as I have from your short tenure!

I think we may have to start a collection for PB, so he can keep the gun that saved his life. Any Takers? I'm gonna go work the number out right now...lol




chilie

ps I love your recollection of your martial arts instructor's quote. I'll have to rememeber that

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 03:25 PM
Carrying guns here is no problem. Getting a license to own one takes effort and time. You need to jump through many hoops but once you have it, carrying it is allowed, no problem. There are limits to ownership too. A registered collector, a dedicated sportsman (like myself) and dedicated hunter can own many (types and quantity) but a casual shooter can own one handgun (or pump action shotgun) for self protection, one handgun for occasional sports shooting and 2 rifles or 1 rifle and one shotgun (pump excluded)

Our legal system also does not allow for civil cases to follow a legal shooting of a perp. Our gun laws are actually quite user friendly!

damien
March 10, 2009, 03:29 PM
Is South Africa a liberal or a conservative state? I don't know much about SA, but I thought that with the widening of voting rights, etc. that it might have become more leftst. I am surprised that carrying guns is allowed. I think about the District of Columbia here in the USA. Even with terrible crime, they would not open up and allow citizens to own and carry guns. Why does South Africa?

chilie
March 10, 2009, 03:31 PM
Ok so let's round membership to about 83,000. And let's take a conservative price of $300 US, to buy and ship said gun. It comes to a little over .003 cents. So everyone mail a check for 1 US cent to PB. And he'll havehis new gun :)

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 06:01 PM
Damien,

When us Boers were in charge here, we were really conservative. Sadly we were not a real democracy as only a minority had the vote. We decided as a minority to change that and became a true democracy and negotiate a settlement as we were fighting constant war as a result of the unfair situation. Our first democratic president was Nelson Mandela and yes the country moved left and became liberal. Economically we did prosper but for many of us our "change" was fairly radical.

The cultures of the different groups in South Africa is respected though and our group of white South Africans have a deep rooted gun culture and thus we still have the ability to own guns in South Africa. With our abnormally high crime rates and our police overwhelmed by it, most South Africans of all groups support gun ownership and many will not ever accept being unarmed.

It seems to me that some sort of licensing of firearms is a trend worldwide. Most countries that have banned guns have never had a gun culture. In that sense South Africa and the USA seem to almost stand alone. Pioneering countries such as ours have got a deep seated gun culture, although I am sure most politicians, especially the socialist leaning types, rue that and would love to grab our guns.

Wish we had second amendment rights though!

chillie,
Thanks for your kind sentiments but I think the bragging rights the blown up NAA give me make it worth keeping, I still have another dozen guns or so!!! :)

loneviking
March 10, 2009, 06:09 PM
Alright, it looks like I was wrong. I do not think it was the ammo though. The 22's are rimfires (so you can't reload them), and you'd have to have a double loaded round from the factory. I've fired many thousands of 22's from several manufacturers and have never seen nor heard of anyone experiencing something like this. Glad you made it out alive, but I darn sure wouldn't ever trust my life to an NAA revolver again. Next time, it might blow up on the first shot and then where would you be?

theotherwaldo
March 10, 2009, 06:15 PM
Thinking about it, I had one pistol that, if it had been a little weaker, would have blown up like your NAA. It was a Heritage Arms .22lr single-action pistol. I had been firing it for about a box full when it made a funny-sounding shot and sent bits in all directions. When I checked it I found that the cylinder hadn't advanced all of the way and the hammer had just caught the edge of the cartridge rim. Much of the bullet hit the forcing cone and splashed, putting a lot of stress on the frame and sending lead in all directions. The cause? A bit of lint in the action, causing the hand to slip partway through cocking.

Proud Boer
March 10, 2009, 06:39 PM
http://www.sapsjournalonline.gov.za/dynamic/journal_dynamic.aspx?pageid=414&jid=9047

Here are some details of the situation here in Cape Town around the time of my incident.

Our police really work hard and I really respect them. This article makes one understand the vagueness of my specific attackers. Which ones of the 60 were they????

At least this sort of crime came to an end after these massive arrests.

rainbowbob
March 10, 2009, 07:24 PM
Proud Boer has sent me the pictures of the NAA .22 Magnum and of his arm.


Nobody should have to prove their stories here. Besides, it's the internet - believe it or not...and keep your doubts to yourself unless you have evidence to back 'em up.

Proud Boer: I am sorry you had to endure such an incident - and then have your veracity questioned by some of us not-so-High Roaders.

I'm sure the doubters will rush to post their apologies and expressions of embarrassment (although, oddly enough, I haven't seen any yet).

Good job on using what ya got and continuing to fight until the threat was overcome.

That is the lesson I take away from this: When violently assaulted; NEVER quit until it's over - one way or the other.

Zoogster
March 10, 2009, 07:39 PM
Great post, thank you for sharing your experience.


You are a prime target as a successful white person in SA.
Many people here in the US may not understand as the race situation is totaly different, but SA is in general very racist, with the blacks the most resentful and racist group in modern times.
Whites are a minority making up about 9%, and successful whites are very despised by a large segment of the population (not all the blacks are racist but a significant portion are, especialy bitter about the history of apartheid.)
Right or wrong it is the way it is. You will be hated by many people just by being white there. By being white and successful your chances of being involved in a violent attack are very high.
The OP's vehicle, his attire, and likely his home all tell the criminals he is a valuable target. Knowing he is involved in the insurance business would increase this.
No amount of US political correctness changes this.
http://www.southafrica.info/cm_pics/ess_info/690-1823-2658-0_663332.jpg



South Africa is a rough place. One of the highest crime rates in the world, second in assaults and murders out of the UN recorded nations.
It is also the HIV (almost 6 million, and almost 20% of adult population) and the rape capital of the world, an interesting combination.
http://www.avert.org/subaadults.htm
It has been the rape capital of the devloped world since the 90's, some interesting tidbits from 1999 BBC report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/258446.stm
Gang rape 'fun'

In a related survey conducted among 1,500 schoolchildren in the Soweto township, a quarter of all the boys interviewed said that 'jackrolling' - a South African term for recreational gang rape - was fun.

More than half the interviewees insisted that when a girl says no to sex she really means yes.
Survey of boys now the adult age.
Tourists don't escape gang rapes either, and those that try to help can wind up shot:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2490859.stm
Just in case you think anything changed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7072818.stm
Rape is a hobby by many in South Africa and the culture condones it many places.

I could cite many additional statistics, like the UN's or other British studies, but they always mention "gun crime" and have seperate "gun" statistics. Clearly baised in wanting to destroy firearm ownership in most of thier crime related stories. So I won't give them airtime, but south Africa is one of the most dangerous places in the world.


The OP certainly should get his wife her own gun that she can carry.
It is also not uncommon for shots to be fired before words are spoken by criminals in South Africa. Just being armed is only a chance at a good outcome.

South Africa is the most dangerous place that has our modern lifestyle (developed world.)
Yet English is the most common language, spoken by 30% of the population, so feel free to visit.




In light of the situation in South Africa when someone from South Africa comes on and tells thier story dealing with violent criminals I am inclined to take thier story at face value. When they are a highly targeted minority, and thier story implies they are clearly a successful businessman making them a further target... I am inclined to consider it even more likely accurate.
I was a bit amazed at the childish comments of some initialy.


When us Boers were in charge here, we were really conservative. Sadly we were not a real democracy as only a minority had the vote. We decided as a minority to change that and became a true democracy and negotiate a settlement as we were fighting constant war as a result of the unfair situation. Our first democratic president was Nelson Mandela and yes the country moved left and became liberal. Economically we did prosper but for many of us our "change" was fairly radical.
Yes South Africa has gone way downhill since the end of Apartheid.
However it was a necessary step.
9% of the population in charge is certainly major oppression, even if more successful and prosperous.
The ends do not justify the means.



South Africa is the only nation in the world that became a nuclear power, and then destroyed its nuclear capabilities, nuclear weapons, and all traces of the technology.
They did not want the new government to be armed with nuclear weapons, not trusting them to show the restraint of the Boer appartheid government.


Thank you for sharing your story. Be safe, and stay armed. Keep your wife armed too.

MD_Willington
March 10, 2009, 08:32 PM
I work with Engineers from South Africa, they can attest to it being a place where if you can carry a sidearm, you do it - end of sentence.

4Freedom
March 10, 2009, 09:30 PM
The cultures of the different groups in South Africa is respected though and our group of white South Africans have a deep rooted gun culture and thus we still have the ability to own guns in South Africa. With our abnormally high crime rates and our police overwhelmed by it, most South Africans of all groups support gun ownership and many will not ever accept being unarmed.

I have heard from some people I know from South Africa that the government has been quite restrictive with gun laws. From my knowledge, in South Africa, you are either only allowed two guns per person or two guns per household, I am not sure which. In a place where criminals are massively armed, I suppose this is quite a limitation. Also, I hear the government is taking measures to prevent whites in South Africa from leaving, since they have a majority of the wealth. It would not surpised me if some ultra-left wing African dictator takes the grip on South Africa in the next decade and imposes the same tyranny on the white population that Mugabe has done in ZImbabwe.

Its a real shame. Africa's only gem has been turning into rusted metal. My advice for all South African Boers is to leave the country as soon as possible. I have noticed a lot of South Africans have move to Uganda, Ghana and other African countries where they are not only safer, but treated like royalty. Of course you will have to deal with malaria, horrible health care, terrifying driving conditions, tribal clashes and government overthrows time to time. I, myself have been to Africa a couple times. In some countries they allow white people to carry gun, but won't allow the local population to have guns. Hiring 24hr a day armed bodyguards is pretty dang cheap in these places. Also, in places like Ghana or Uganda, if someone is caught stealing they just beat him to death, so the thieving profession is not as prevelant as you would think in a country of dirt poor people. Its funny, I suppose they realize that wealthy foreigners won't overthrow the government or commit crimes, in their totalitarian minds.

OF course , as for me, Africa is fun for a safari, but thats it.

D-Day
March 10, 2009, 10:00 PM
That's very, very impressive. My hat is off to you, Proud Boer.

I for one would be proud to be your fellow American when you move here.

Thank you for the detailed story and your experience. We can all learn from this, and it's always a big help when we can get an actual account from an actual fight.

Zoogster
March 10, 2009, 10:10 PM
Its funny, I suppose they realize that wealthy foreigners won't overthrow the government or commit crimes, in their totalitarian minds.
It is not funny it is the same reason things like the NFA and machinegun market are the way they are here.
If only the wealthy have most of them then they are less likely to be used in violent crime.
The rich have better security, better safes, (most guns in crimes were stolen) better reason to obey the law, more to lose, and clearly benefit from the way things are.
You certainly could make a logical argument that nobody making less than X per year should even be able to own a gun, especialy the more effective arms. They have tried to do that in the US with "saturday night special" and other 'too cheap' gun laws.
That still is anti-freedom and very much against the ideals of the 2nd Amendment.
A segment of the population doing well, and armed enough to stay in power or who support those in power against the will of the people is a form of tyranny.

It also causes more resentment of those with special privilidges, which helps people like Mugabe come to power who will punish them, and violate thier rights.

Yes Africa is corrupt.
People with more wealth by definition have the best chance of additional privilidges in places that are corrupt. They contribute the most wealth to society, generate the most taxes, can afford fees, give gifts and business contracts to important people and otherwise perform actions that cause powerful people to favor them. Many of them also worked hard to get where they are and are and are not about to throw it away for minor gain.
That does not make corruption or a class based society good.

Under the caste system in India most crime and problems were from the lowest classes too. Big surprise?
I guess denying them rights of the upper classes would make sense then too?
After all they have the least to lose and were the most likely to revolt. Logicly it would only make sense to restrict them so they won't be able to effectively resist tyranny.

Everyone should be treated fairly and equaly. People that are less wealthy should still have the same rights and freedoms.
People that earn a high level of success and wealth should not be punished with unfair progressive tax systems just because they can be outvoted. A flat percent would be fair. But tyranny of the majority persists.
There is a lot of predjudice in the world and even the US between different classes. Special privelidges given to the elite, just look at something like the Los Angeles CCW system. Also a lot of "rich person" hatred, predjudice against people just because they are more successful.
Any favoring of different groups of people is not consistant with the idealogy of our nation. Any differential treatment is wrong.
There is many logical reasons for tyranny and oppression, that does not make them right.

.455_Hunter
March 10, 2009, 11:38 PM
Hello Proud Boer,

My daily carry is a NAA .22 Mag identical to yours. I usually load mine with Remington's 40 gr. Pointed Soft Points. I really appreciate you posting your story here. Its interesting how people will swear-off NAA because of your experience, but still think S&W, Ruger and Glock are A-OK, even though those companies have all had similar random kabooms with factory ammo.

FYI- Here is a link to chronograph results from my NAA:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=288266

A. CCI 30 gr. TNT JHP- 1151 fps (88 fpe)
B. CCI 30 gr. +V JHP- 1183 fps (92 fpe)
C. CCI 40 gr. JHP- 1015 fps (91 fpe)
D. REM 40 gr. PSP- 1016 fps (92 fpe)
E. CCI 50 gr. Gold Dot- 883 fps (87 fpe)
F. Federal 50 gr. JHP- 897 fps (89 fpe)

Take Care!

Hunter

LegalAlien
March 11, 2009, 12:25 AM
Van n ex-boer . .. . my hoed af vir jou!!!
Wel gedoen

I can attest to the situation in South Africa, being an ex-South African myself, with all my family still living there.

Few people are aware that most homes in the city suburbs of Pretoria, Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban and other large cities, are almost without exception fenced-in compounds, with 6ft security fences, barbed wire, or worse covering the top of the fences, electrically operated security gates, burglar bars on all windows, extra security doors to the exterior and also typically at least one security gate inside the house, locked at night to secure the bedroom area.

My own brother was car-jacked and shot in the leg while I was still living back in South Africa.

Middle class people (irrespective of skin color) are constant targets of violent car jackings, burglaries and viscious home invasions.

The 'goblins' have no respect for human life and will not hesitate to indiscriminately kill their hapless victims.

Odd Job
March 11, 2009, 04:38 AM
I have to make one observation: when the government changed in South Africa in the 90s there were a lot of hijackings and killings of whites. There was an epidemic of this, no doubt the period 1995 to 2000 was the worst for gratuitous killings of whites.

HOWEVER....at present it is a free for all. Most of the violence is black on black. There is as much division between the black 'tribes' now as there was between black and white in years gone by. And if you're a Zimbabwean...well, you could end up under a train if they find out (they see any black foreigners as a direct threat to their livelihood).
There are 11 official languages in South Africa. It is not a given that all 11 peoples are united under one happy rainbow.

Unfortunately I don't share proud Boer's optimism for South Africa's outlook. It is headed the same way as all the other African countries. It has great mineral wealth and great beauty, but all that amounts to nought if it is mismanaged. Rolling power cuts, overt corruption and tribal bickering have put SA on a downward spiral. It's getting a good shove from HIV and general crime also.
Anyone who is deluded about prospects in South Africa needs to check out the history of one of its neighbours: Mozambique.

Few people are aware that most homes in the city suburbs of Pretoria, Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban and other large cities, are almost without exception fenced-in compounds, with 6ft security fences, barbed wire, or worse covering the top of the fences, electrically operated security gates, burglar bars on all windows, extra security doors to the exterior and also typically at least one security gate inside the house, locked at night to secure the bedroom area.

That describes it accurately.
I never left home without my pistol, and I carried 24/7 even in banks, hospitals and several aircraft also.

We had quite few hospital colleagues killed, one of them was an ENT surgeon shot dead at the hospital gate by four teenagers after his BMW.
It is true: everyone knows someone who has been shot or hijacked in South Africa. I have had a gun and a knife pulled on me, and I have pulled also.

That's the nature of the beast.

4Freedom
March 11, 2009, 04:59 AM
HOWEVER....at present it is a free for all. Most of the violence is black on black. There is as much division between the black 'tribes' now as there was between black and white in years gone by. And if you're a Zimbabwean...well, you could end up under a train if they find out (they see any black foreigners as a direct threat to their livelihood).
There are 11 official languages in South Africa. It is not a given that all 11 peoples are united under one happy rainbow.


Well its good to know that SOuth Africa is getting back to normal, its becoming just like all the other african nations. In 30 years they won't remember the Boers, they will be too busy hating one anothers tribe. Sorry for my sick humor, although its a good analogy.

In relation to guns:
I was in Uganda for 6 weeks and witnessed some nasty stuff. THe leader is from a tribe called Buyankole. They have several enemy tribes, especially the Buganda, Busoga, Ateso and others. Each tribe has deep resentment for the other. The president of Uganda, Yoweri Museveni has banned arms from all the tribes that he hates and has heavily armed his own tribe and other nomadic thieving tribes that raid the cattle and homes of his enemy tribes.

In Uganda, if you own a firearm and you are not approved by the government, the punishment is death. I know of enemy tribesman who have literally been shot dead on the spot for having a firearm, you don't mess around over there. Tribes like the Luo and Atesso in the north were suffering heavily from cattle raids and village raids by a very barbaric nomad tribe called the Karamajong. The Karamajong have been given large numbers of fully automatic AK-47s by the government, which they claim is needed to protect their cattle. The Karamajong believe by God all cows on earth belong to them. THey can be pretty freaky, I have met some and are not particularly friendly to outsiders. Well, the government knows very well , the Karamajong use their guns to brutalize and steal from the villagers of enemy tribes, secretly sponsored by the president. The villagers in the north are rather helpless and government will not allow any gun ownership. ITs plows and machetes vs fully auto commie guns.

Due to heavy media censorship, outsiders will really never have this knowledge. We are so focused on the middle esat we don't see the other atrocities that happen around the world.

I did notice a lot of wealthy South Africans and Europeans living quite well in the city of Kampala. Some places in Kampala looked like Beverly Hills. I suppose foreigners live pretty good there in the capital city, at least for now.

bratch
March 11, 2009, 09:19 AM
I plan to get a place in Kansas or Oklahoma sometime and a N.A.A. a regular item in my pocket them.If BHO does not spoil the fun.

If you make it to OK I'll buy you a beer.

batjka
March 11, 2009, 10:21 AM
Well, the mystery of exploding gun might have been solved. I took a liberty of posting this story along with pictures on the NAA forum.

One of the gentlemen there suggested that the cylinder pin had popped out under recoil and the cylinder got misalligned with the barrel.
It seems like a plausible theory. The cylinder pins are known weak points of the NAA revolvers.

Boer, when you were shooting your NAA previously have you ever had the pin pop out partially?

beatcop
March 11, 2009, 12:21 PM
You are truly a lucky man to walk away from that situation! I always considered the NAA revolvers to be a last resort weapon, right ahead of a sharp stick, but it looks like it did the job, albeit a little short on durability. Give some serious thought to the minimum caliber you want to bet your life on though.

Glad you're in one piece Sir!

Zundfolge
March 11, 2009, 12:34 PM
Carrying guns here is no problem.Getting a licence to own one takes effort and time.You need to jump through many hoops but once you have it,carrying it is allowed,no problem.

I think you'll find the opposite issue if you immigrate to the US. Once you're here you'll find that buying guns is much easier than carrying them. Most states won't issue concealed carry licenses to non-citizens, so Resident Aliens cannot legally carry concealed.

If you end up in Kansas you will have to be a resident for 6 months before you can get your CCW, in Oklahoma you qualify as soon as you get your drivers license. However I do believe that both require you to be US Citizens (there is some dispute here as under the law Permanent Resident Aliens are supposed to enjoy the same treatment as Citizens with the exception of voting rights).

Here in Colorado the idiots in Denver are considering a law that would make purchase of firearms by even legal resident aliens illegal (although this may only apply to purchase from licensed dealers and not from private individuals).

Iansstud
March 11, 2009, 12:34 PM
Did you get your deposit back for the tux? or did you own it....

Thats too bad about the crime there, But good for you!!! Its good to here storys of people that stand up for themselves

thanks for posting

LegalAlien
March 11, 2009, 12:42 PM
Most states won't issue concealed carry licenses to non-citizens, so Resident Aliens cannot legally carry concealed

Then he needs to move to FL . . . . . I have my CWP down here in the Gunshine state :D

Koos Custodiet
March 11, 2009, 01:11 PM
Hey boertjie, welkom!

We seem to have a few SA members and quite a few expats here on THR.

Couple of years back Joe da Silva (owner, Parow Arms & Ammo (gunshop)) used his NAA 22 mag to drive off some goblins (politically correct term coined by Col. Jeff) as well.

Problem now is, with the new laws one can only licence one gun for self defence. Fools in parliament with their own bodyguards telling us what to do.

Mooi man.

Koos in Cape Town

SwordRapier
March 11, 2009, 01:34 PM
Lest we bag too much on NAA firearms I would like to point out one thing. For a time I volunteered as a range safety officer at a public access gun range. I went into the range and heard the other RSO’s talking about what had happened the day before. A shooter brought in a new gun and began firing it. After a couple of shots the slide broke in half. The front half few down range the back half into the guys face.

It was a brand new Kimber Ultra-light .45 APC.

As for the original post sounding like it is a piece of fiction reverse engineered from an existing news story. Proud Boer simply can write and write well. It seems to be a dying skill in USA. Americans in general can’t write. Our education system is sadly lacking in the language department.

If goblin is an offensive term I think I need abandon the career I am trying to start. (I am a writer of fantasy fiction.)

Dave B
March 11, 2009, 01:50 PM
The cyl pin coming out is probably correct as Batjka said. Mine falls apart about every 3rd shot. A misaligned cyl would do it. Boer was lucky to get off 3 good shots.

Zundfolge
March 11, 2009, 01:51 PM
Then he needs to move to FL . . . . . I have my CWP down here in the Gunshine state
Apparently Utah will also issue to Resident Aliens.



Americans in general can’t write. Our education system is sadly lacking in the language department.
Hey now, we Americans is just as good if not gooder writing as them South Africans and other Europeans!

Koos Custodiet
March 11, 2009, 02:52 PM
Americans in general can’t write.

In *general* that might be true but go read Marko, Ambulance Driver, Brigit... there are some 'merkins who write well enough to cover for the rest.

http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/plumbing-emergency-at-castle-frostbite/

http://ambulancedriverfiles.blogspot.com/2009/03/love-song-for-katybeth.html

http://mausersandmuffins.blogspot.com/

http://mymoderncountryhome.blogspot.com/2009/03/integrity.html

http://highlytrainedmonkey.blogspot.com/2008/10/prayers.html

http://boobsinjuriesanddrpepper.blogspot.com/2009/02/new-ways-of-speaking.html (Just ignore the "Finley" stuff, OK?)

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/reuben-sandwich.html

Just a bit of my blogroll. Yes sir, some 'merkins sure can write.

Hey now, we Americans is just as good if not gooder

"...better..."

Yea, I know, you knew that, your snark is showing, yadda yadda. Still, watching USA stuff on TV, we love Firefly, but "you done good" soooooo grates.

And *I* know what "zundfolge" means :-) 'smatter of fact, once impressed friend Leitmotif with that factoid.

:-)

SP Shop Foreman
March 11, 2009, 02:54 PM
Strange. The only thing missing from this entire thread is BlacklabelOP's apolgy.

SP

rainbowbob
March 11, 2009, 03:03 PM
Strange. The only thing missing from this entire thread is BlacklabelOP's apolgy.

Yeah...I wonder what happened to him?

Hugo
March 11, 2009, 03:05 PM
Perhaps his NAA Mini .22 got damaged by a bullet from one of his attackers shooting at him during the attack. This then made it structurally unsound and caused it to blow up when he fired it the next time after it was damaged. Might be very hard to detect on the debris left over.

bang_bang
March 11, 2009, 03:07 PM
Either it was damaged by one of the suspects bullet or shrapnel, or just a bad batch of metal. Either way, that thing sure blew up!

It served it's duty, you and your family are alive.

Remember, scars are tattoos with stories!

X-Rap
March 11, 2009, 03:26 PM
Boer you should send your story to the folks at NAA. They ought to be ashamed enough to replace the gun, if so I would go for one of the 380 Guardians, more gun and better put together. You have lived through a life and death situation and did it with a lowly 22. some of us are armed to the teeth and won't need them. More proof, you fight with what you got.

SwordRapier
March 11, 2009, 03:56 PM
I seems that my dig at American writers was misunderstood. I was attempting to point out Proud Boer’s writing skill. He is a very well written man. I was attempting to point out that Americans are not used to formal writing on Internet posts. Most of the time we just toss words on the screen run a spell check to make sure the words are spelled correctly and submit the post.

I am in no way saying that all Americans are poor writers. What I am really attempting to say is we Americans can be careless when we write Internet posts. There are many examples of excellent American writers. Poorly written posts are a pet peeve of mine. I have turned into something of a writing cop recently.

Because american Internet posters can be a bit careless it looks a bit unusual when someone takes time to make sure his or her posts are well written. Because Proud Boer’s post is well written it is different; therefore, it was suspected to be a work of fiction. Some people are automatically suspicious of things that are different. It’s unfortunate but true.

Mal H
March 11, 2009, 06:57 PM
... run a spell check to make sure the words are spelled correctly ...We must be reading a different set of posts! ;)

Tennesseean
March 11, 2009, 07:52 PM
I seems that my dig at American writers was misunderstood. I was attempting to point out Proud Boer’s writing skill. He is a very well written man. I was attempting to point out that Americans are not used to formal writing on Internet posts. Most of the time we just toss words on the screen run a spell check to make sure the words are spelled correctly and submit the post.

I disagree. I believe that you may be forming a mistaken stereotype due to the fact that you're posting on a board frequented mostly by Americans. Thus, any foreigner's posts will be unduly influenced by your judgment. Although THR does have some foreign posters, I think it's safe to assume that the majority are American. Generally speaking, education and maturity level are the best predictors of attention to spelling on an internet forum, regardless of country of origin.

I don't mean to be rude, but Proud Boer's writing isn't especially great; mine isn't especially noteworthy either, but I do notice quite a few comma errors right off the bat.

Lastly, I disagree with your claim that people are assuming Proud Boer's post is fictional because it is different / well written. I speculate that concerns about PB's story's validity come from several sources, including:
1. Quite a few "Hollywood" dramatizations reminiscent of Gecko45
2. The poster's new status to the board. With no reputation to go on, his post is subject to more criticism than someone who is more familiar to the board. This criterion doesn't affect the validity of his story per se, but does ratchet up the level of scrutiny most readers would have before accepting the story as truth.
3. The excited tone of the story just feels suspect. In most stories about defensive shootings, the person pulling the trigger typically doesn't recount the moment with such zealousness.
4. It could be that the story is just creative fiction based on the facts presented in the real news article. The aggrandizing language and Hollywood moments reinforce this possibility.
5. A possible factual error: PB reports that one of the suspects died after fleeing. It's possible that he lingered on in a hospital until after the article was published, or that the reporter got the facts wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), but it's a pretty grave error to have a shooting occur on May 8th and not know the most basic details by May 11th.

I can't say that PB is a liar or that his story is false, but I do understand from where criticisms of his story may arise.

SwordRapier
March 12, 2009, 02:00 AM
“Generally speaking, education and maturity level are the best predictors of attention to spelling on an internet forum, regardless of country of origin.” –Tennesseean

I agree with this statement. I would like to point out I have written on other forums. In those other forums people really struggle with good writing. Too be honest I must admit on some of the other forums maturity level may be a factor

However, I remember the lack of serious attention I am most of my peers gave High School English. I also remember just how hard people had to struggle in a college level English Class. I also ponder the email communications I received at my job. All of these led me to the conclusion that the writing skill is lacking in the United States. I am not sure if Americans cannot write or if we have gotten into the habit of being careless. Personally I lean towards careless.

I am not trying to offend anyone actually I am trying to inspire people to pay more attention to their writing. I do not claim to be perfect. You should see how many times I have to edit and still there are mistakes.

Sorry to digress off the point.

bang_bang
March 12, 2009, 02:46 AM
Ok, a gentleman puts his life in danger, tells us about it, shows us scars and the poor firearm that saved his and his family's life but you are concerned about spelling?

Again Proud Boer, we're all glad to see that everything came out alright on your end and that you protected your family. Its a shame that you have had to go through this, but imagine how many lives you could of saved by now.

Proud Boer
March 12, 2009, 03:21 AM
Having received some kind responses and some not so kind ones, I feel it might be opportune to respond to some comments. Firstly,I understand where some of those "doubts" come from and would like to say "no offense taken!"

I really enjoy this site and reading the various posts and enjoyed many of them.

I think it fair to say that not many people living outside South Africa understand the level of violent crime. My story here in Cape Town is not that unique,just over month ago there was a guy who shot 5 robbers with a 12 gauge pump! http://allafrica.com/stories/200901290502.html B.T.W. He is also a Boer!



I believe that the merits and facts of my incident have been well backed up by newspaper articles, photographs etc, however the style of my written account seems to have attracted (predictably) some less than kind responses. In the immediate weeks after the attack, my mental state would not have been of such a nature to write such a bravado story. As the dust has settled and my family out of shock, I feel that writing my account should be interesting and fun to read and that the perps should be mocked and diminished.

On the issue of the dead carjacker here are the facts. I have always used the word apparently when mentioning him and here is why:
After being shot, (as the police spokesman confirmed in the newspaper article I posted), from blood on the scene, excluding mine, two of them were clearly wounded by me) and have my neighbor witness him (and the others) flee to their getaway vehicle (the one shot in the chest, rather slowly and on all fours and helped by the getaway driver (perp no 4), all was quiet until 10 May. On 10 May the investigating detective came to collect my firearm as he needed it for ballistic tests as a corpse matching what had happened in my incident had pitched up at a police morgue in a different part of Cape Town. Bear in mind Cape Town is a city of 3.5 million people stretched out over more than 50 miles.

This carjacking linked murder spree had spread throughout the Cape Town peninsula and been going on for a year and now spread to the most affluent suburbs in Cape Town. If it sounds like my area is a slum, I would like to mention that it is in fact one of the most expensive suburban areas of South Africa, with houses starting (in US DOLLARS) in the range of $ 1,000,000.00. This issue had now become a political issue as the police appeared helpless. In the week of my incident the police had formed a national taskforce (Americans read "federal") and set up what they called a "war room" in Cape Town focusing on this issue. http://www.sapsjournalonline.gov.za/dynamic/journal_dynamic.aspx?pageid=414&jid=9047

About a month later he brought the gun back to me saying that the Public Prosecutor (Americans read District Attorney) had decided that as my firearm could not undergo regular ballistics and that the corpse had been identified as a prime suspect in this spree of killing and had 4 warrants for murder against him, they were not pursuing my case further. This suited me fine as the public prosecutor, although he can use discretion, usually opens a case against the victim and a court case follows where innocence/guilt/partial guilt gets scrutinized. I was dreading this and was glad that in my case such a case has not happened. These cases often take years and their toll, irrespective of outcome. So the fact is this corpse will never officially be my victim.

Lastly, our constitution is SO liberal and gives our scumbag criminals rights which are insane. These scumbags get off the most horrific crimes on the smallest and irrelevant technicalities. In this case in which there have been 60 arrests so far, the public prosecutor is, in my opinion, taking no chances and only bringing to court that which will jail these scumbags for as long as possible and with as little chance of possible of allowing technicalities to mitigate their guilt. This case will still take a long time but at least bail has been denied to all 60. I will know more of my attackers at the end of this case which my family and I are following keenly. We are not holding our breath.

I can't recognize the faces of my attackers as my whole fight only took about half a minute and was at night even though all of fighting took place in a radius of no more than 20 feet!

We had a case recently of a perp who robbed a bank and was shot in the leg by a security guard. He escaped and was arrested later. The guard could not identify his face. Although the bullet was lodged in his leg, our constitution would not allow that the bullet be removed and matched to the guard's gun! This case dragged on for 4 years. The perp committed another armed robbery while on bail and was eventually jailed for that one. While in jail the state were ordered to remove the bullet, which after being cruel and unusual to remove to prove his guilt now needed to be removed (at taxpayer expense) to alleviate his new found discomfort.

The joys of a liberal state and pantywaist judges! http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=13&set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080425065436982C345169

piratelooking@40
March 12, 2009, 03:54 AM
Our gun laws mandate me to export it to them with a govt permit and import the new one with the same serial number.N.A.A would thus have to keep the old ,damaged one.

I would rather frame the damaged lifesaver

I'd never let go of that little gun.

Someone mentioned taking up a collection. I'd gladly pitch in a few $

Proud Boer
March 12, 2009, 04:02 AM
Piratelooking@40,

Thank you, and others,for your kind sentiments regarding a collection for my gun, my insurance company will gladly settle me should I decide not to send the gun to N.A.A for free replacement (which NAA agreed to). I am going to keep the gun as it represents one of the few major events in my life.

Afy
March 12, 2009, 06:53 AM
Good shooting

SheB61
March 12, 2009, 08:01 AM
You did good!

As a fellow South African, I'm always saddened to hear about what has happened to my country and it's people. Some of my family are still there and I worry about their safety. I only wish there was a way to prevent all that lawlessness and bring all the crime to a halt. Alas, I don't see that happening anytime soon......

Sterkte!

ultradoc
March 12, 2009, 08:06 AM
very interesting story. and if the only thing they took with them was your bullets imbedded in them well good job sir.

SwordRapier
March 12, 2009, 03:17 PM
Missunderstood again. I am not concered about PB spelling. In fact I am pointing out he is a better writer than many of his critics. I have not written anything critical of the OP. It is an amazing story and one I feel inspired by.

Once again congratulations on beating the odds.

Teapot
March 12, 2009, 04:29 PM
Proud Boer, I thought you'd at least be carrying a 7mm Mauser instead of a puny little thing like that. Your skill and instinct got the job done with the tool at hand. Congratulations on surviving.
A baby Glock in 45ACP or 10mm will serve you better.
Rhodesia also had a proud and magical history. My parents almost moved there from the UK.

flying_gage
March 12, 2009, 05:03 PM
Been to South Africa. All I can say is "wild west" is a tame description based on what I saw on the front page of the newspaper. This was in '99 and the first 5 pages of the local paper were of murders, agg. robberies and what not. Mind boggling!

I also dated a Boer for awhile. I too thought it was a rascist label when I first heard it. She corrected me.

Good on ya PB!

winston smith
March 12, 2009, 11:19 PM
You are welcome in my driveway any time.;)

And in my house, of course!:D

DC3-CVN-72
March 13, 2009, 12:43 AM
Good shooting Sir! Glad you & your family are O.K. When I first read the part about the gun blowing up and Proud Boar was describing his shrapenal wounds to his hand I thought a bullit had hit the gun on the edge of the cyl, & Knocked it out of alignment with the bbl. When the gun blew up, the force of the bullit & larger force in the oppiset direction forced the shrapenal back in to his hand. could this happen?

fiddleharp
March 13, 2009, 03:17 PM
The clock is running out on "Boers". There is no future for them in the nations their ancestors built.
When the inevitable Rwanda-style slaughter occurs in SA and Zimbabwe, I hope there will be an "Adopt-A-Boer" program in place.
I've got two extra bedrooms where refugees can stay as long as it takes to get a foothold in their new country.
I'd be proud to help such fine people become new American citizens. We need them more than they need us!

Proud Boer
March 13, 2009, 07:08 PM
Fiddleharp,

Thank you for your concern. Don't write us Boers off too quickly though. We know how to fight for that which is precious to us and this land sure is. We fought the British twice when they were the world's superpower. We beat them the first time and lost the second time after four years of bringing them literally to their knees. They had to resort to putting our women and children in concentration camps to win, even though they had a formal military force here of 500,000 and we had a informal army of 26,000. They were rich and we were relatively poor. In the Boer army at the time, a soldier had to bring his own horse, rifle, ammo and food!! We have been here since the 1600's and for a few hundred years made up the poorer class, in a world sense. Since we lost political power we have gain economic power to the extent that we totally dominate the economy.

Maybe we will have to cut our losses and run but don't hold your breath!!!

Kind Regards

Vern Humphrey
March 13, 2009, 09:33 PM
Actually, I've read predictions on AIDS that say if a cure is not found, South Africa will be a majority White country by mid-century.

Mal H
March 13, 2009, 09:53 PM
We're getting fairly far afield from the original topic of this thread. Let's all remember the very title of this forum, and leave the global politics to a different site.

Buck Snort
March 13, 2009, 10:12 PM
Senior Member Join Date: 08-24-08
Posts: 304 "Am I the only one who noticed the part about the wife handing him the .45 and saying something to the effect of "Kill 'em all" "

If she lives in JO-town, why does SHE not know how to shoot?

Buck Snort
March 13, 2009, 10:24 PM
"Boer, you are very proficient with such a measley handgun, I commened you once again. Good shoot."

Good for you PB but this old fart will defend himself with nothing less than a .357 mag and preferably with a .44 mag or 45 ACP. I'm just not as gutsy as you, I'll admit that right off the top. Going into combat with something that does not serve up substantial WHALLOP is not my idea of good sense.

ShnogDog
March 22, 2009, 07:41 AM
The man is a Boer and is rightly proud of it. That is his heritage. He is also not a liar. In certain parts of the world this kind of thing happens. In South Africa it happens quite a lot. This gentleman, is however amongst the lucky few. He survived, by making his own luck. Not many get the opportunity to "live to tell". So pay the man some respect. Whilst he has given plenty of good advice, upon reflecting on his ordeal, I'm sure he will agree that in these situations your reflexes and instincts kick in. You could fill your pants and cry like a little girl when someone points a gun at you, or you can respond with agressive will to survive, as he did. He didnt have the luxury of having the ideal calibre at hand to defend himself against 3 attackers. He had a 22 magnum. Not ideal, but better than nothing. But what he had was the right INSTINCT, and he took them on no matter what. Reality is that in South Africa, you could hand over your keys, watch and wallet without any fight, and they would gun you down anyway. He's not a liar, he's simply ALIVE and if it was you, you would also be telling people about it. Proud Boer.. I salute you mate... =S=

Keb
March 22, 2009, 04:24 PM
A lady named Andrea Sjuit or Sujuit has been blogging for years about the crime gang and SA Farmer murders, in what was once a safe and prospering country.

rainbowbob
March 23, 2009, 10:40 PM
Still sounds fake.

Did you happen to take a look at Post #87?

Go read that and then come back with your apology.

TexasRedneck
March 23, 2009, 11:05 PM
Still sounds fake.

I can't believe you would say something like that - not only given the backup information that's been provided - but just as a matter of civility.

JohnKSa
March 23, 2009, 11:24 PM
With their firearms pointed at me, I drew mine (thank God for years of practice), and shot the apparent leader of that gang in the chest - he screamed like a stuck pig and staggered backwards.And yet, we are frequently and confidently told that drawing against a drawn gun is a death sentence.

Besides Proud Boer's account, reading accounts of other successful self-defense situations will demonstrate that this bit of conventional wisdom is badly in error.

DutchmanDick
March 24, 2009, 10:07 PM
Only thing I can see that Proud Boer did wrong...is leaving any of them alive. Good job, sir! I only wish there were more like you in this world, who were willing to stand up for themselves and their families, instead of being a "good little victim" like the liberal pantywaist politicians (the Clintons, Schumer, Boxer, Feinstein, Brady, Kennedy, and Obama come immediately to mind) would like us to be. To them, the criminals are just "poor, misguided victims of society", and therefore deserve more rights than their real victims. Dead criminals are cheaper - the taxpayers don't have to pay for their trials, court-appointed lawyers, endless appeals, feeding, clothing, and housing them for umpteen years, and finally worrying about what crimes they'll commit once they get out.

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