[Soundtrackzz]

Hey guys. im considering buying a ruger sp101 in 357. but im worried that it doesent have a sixth shot. How important do you think a sixth shot is in a self denfense situation?

Thanks

[Racinbob]

My opinion only. If you need that 6th shot you're already in over your head. That's considering only the people who are carrying the firearm for self defense. If you're in law inforcement or the military and breaking down doors to find the bad guy, you need more than 6.

[BlayGlock]

+1 to that.

[Lovesbeer99]

Did you miss the first 5 shots?
Did anyone you didn't hit not begin to run immediately?
Is anyone coming at you, with anything in hand?

Sometimes the sound of the gun firing will get people running in the opposite direction. Sometimes it won't, maybe cause you are cornered.

If you feel you need a sixth shot, why not carry an auto with 8 shots?

Personally, I love revos and the 357 and I would love a 6th shot, so I understand your question, but it's one only you can answer. Sometimes I carry just the 5 shots, and other times I carry compact auto with 8.

[PT1911]

all I can say is if you are concerned about 5 shots not being enough, then, for your own peace of mind, get something with a higher capacity.. that said, as was previously stated, if you really need that 6th shot, for all practical purposes, you are probably already screwed.. but then again... I guess that is why I have my taurus 608 (8 shots in a .357):D sends shivers down the spine... hehe...

get what you are most comfortable with..

[Bearhands]

99% of gunfights are over in 2-3

[Ruodo]

Like a lot of people already said, if it takes 6 shots to take down someone then you are probably already screwed. I would be afraid of someone slinging out 5 bullets and missing his target.

[wep45]

one in the snot locker = game over.........until then practice

the gun is only as accurate as u r:p

[Jim K]

When I worked in a gun shop, a man told me emphatically that he would never carry a 5-shot S&W, insisting that the 6-shot Colt was better. "What if there are six of them", he sneered. I spoiled his whole day by asking, "What if there are seven of them."

Jim

[Yositomo Wiskisito]

I once read that if there is a situation that is not solved with five rounds of .38 Special, you are over your head and need a Swat team.

[Claude Clay]

""If you need that 6th shot you're already in over your head.""

so why are there so many threads about back up guns if all thats thought to be needed is 5 or less??

5 is probably all most will ever need. but not all that everybody will.
do you know which one you are?

[Jim K]

My feeling would be that if I couldn't do the job with five and a speedloader, I would throw the gun at them and run like hell.

Seriously, this is not TV where heavily armed gangs carry on hours-long gunfights. At the sight of an armed victim, most street thugs will depart the vicinity so fast their shoes smoke.

Jim

[BigBlock]

The highest probability is that you'll never even need one shot. The only problem I see with a five shooter is more reloading time at the range.

[krs]

Glock 19.

But seriously, why do you need even five? Threatened enough to fire? Fire one and run. If you're caught fire another one, and make it good.

[David E]

Wow...........5 shots is "enough," apparently, for each and every situation....:rolleyes:

Fire one and run? And hope the wife and kids can keep up ? At best, take one in the back while you run away...

Only 2-3 shots per encounter? (a stat that is WRONG, btw, and even if it wasn't, it's an AVERAGE, not a maximum.) As my Dad always said "Averages are always wrong."

I'd prefer 6 over 5, as would most anyone, given essentially the same size and bulk. And that brings up the REAL question: for the size/weight/bulk of a Ruger SP-101, is there something better?

Absolutely ! The Glock 19 has already been mentioned, so let me add a Kahr P-9 or P-40, or S&W M&P Compact 9mm or .40, or Glock 26/27

All of these hold more than 5 or 6 (ranging from 8 to 16) and are much easier to carry, shoot and reload.

.

[Soundtrackzz]

what sparked this was a horror story i heard from a professor/ex-police chief.. he told us a story about how a cop friend of his in chicago was going home after a shift and was robbed by a guy with a knife. the cop pulled his j-frame and shot the guy five times in the chest. The baddie continued to run at him and stabbed him to death. The bad guy was high on PCP and didnt feel any one of those shots.

[David E]

That 6th shot may not have mattered.......or it might've saved his life.

[arizona98tj]

Starting at or around shot #3, the target should have switched to the head as COM wasn't working. :uhoh:

[David E]

How do you know it's not working?

You can fire 5 shots in under a second. Well before the target has a chance to "react" to being hit.

Shot #3 can come in under 1/2 second, allowing even less time for a reaction.

Or do you advocate shoot 1-2, assess, then re-engage?

[Clarence]

Unless you are choppering into a hot LZ in a rice paddy - you will probably find 5 to be plenty.

But just remember, if you can't shoot well.............shoot a lot.

[earlthegoat2]

How important would that sixth shot be in a fiveshooter?
How important would that seventh shot be in a sixhooter?
How important would that eighth shot be in a sevenhooter?
How important would that ninth shot be in an eighthooter?

Enough with revolvers.

How important would that 31st shot be in a thirty round mag?

Ill let you guys hash the rest of this out.

[Shadan7]

All of these hold more than 5 or 6 (ranging from 8 to 16) and are much easier to carry, shoot and reload.

David E, respectfully, that may be true for you but is not necessarily true for everyone. And I'm not a bottom-feeder hater, preferring one most of the time for myself (generally a Para 12.45). But sometimes my 642 is the best alternative, and I shoot it better than a very small semi - so would rather have it than a pistol which may hold a couple more rounds.

Cheers -

7

[feudalson]

thats the kinda question you ask yourself when your 5 shots down fumbling for your speed loader... 99% of gun fights may end in under 5 shots.. but by that same token 99% of the time you carry it you will never need it... but you still carry right... i say my golden rule is its better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it...

[larry_minn]

If you are not comfortable/trust it its a bad idea. I am personally in market for a snub nose revolver. 5 or 6 shot. I really don't care. (odds are a 5 shot as Colts rotate backwards.) :) and cost... Most likely a 9mm

[ShadyScott999]

Not at all if 1,2,3,4,5 worked out well for you.

[Marvin KNox]

5 is not enough until you need 6. 6 is not enough until you need 7. 7 is not enough until you need 8.

There's no end to it.

I carry a 5 shot J frame and am lousy at reloading under stress. For that reason I carry another J on the off side (the New York reoad). (I draw pretty good and shoot OK with the left if it comes to having to shoot left handed. That something we should practice a little bit no matter what anyway.) Obviously I'd switch to the right hand for firing if I had time.

Anyway, that gives me ten total and puts me into the range of most autos. Works for me.

Then again, there are times when I'll just have my little LCP auto in my pocket with 6 shots.

If you really have an enviornment where action is likely - I'd go with a high capacity auto. But then again - I don't trust autos so I'd still have to carry the spare J frame.

5 and 5 in times of more liklihood for action works for me. Oner J frame only with .357's works in coat pockets. Single little minimal .380 pocket gun works other times.

The odds are against me getting into a gun fight in my life. The odds are slimmer still of needing more than 5 rounds. I know that, really. But then, again, most of us kinda "get into" this concealed carry and want to do it right just because it could be so crucial if it ever came down.

The options are endless, I suppose. You weigh the odds against real life convenience, I suppose - just like in all things concealed carry wise.

[scottishclaymore]

My snub has six shots. I like that sixth shot, but I would not feel undergunned without it either. Cooper (who got the world started on bottom-feeders to begin with) never seemed to think just a whole lot of the "wondernine." *shrugs*

I count on my snub being enough to do the job. If I had a 5-shot J-frame I would probably count on that being enough too.

That said, I am of the practice of keeping a folding stock shotgun in a bag with me at all times when I go into really bad parts of town (which isn't often now since I left that particular job).

[sohcgt2]

You only need a sixth shot if there is still a threat after five. Normally the threat is gone after 1 or 2 shots, but if not???

[David E]

Normally the threat is gone after 1 or 2 shots...

And you base this on what, exactly?

.

[hoptob]

How important would that sixth shot be in a fiveshooter?
How important would that seventh shot be in a sixhooter?
How important would that eighth shot be in a sevenhooter?
How important would that ninth shot be in an eighthooter?

How important would that sixth shot be in a sixshooter?
How important would that fifth shot be in a fiveshooter?
How important would that fourth shot be in a fourshooter?
How important would that third shot be in a threeshooter?
:D :D :D

http://home.comcast.net/~hoptob/images/DetSpl.jpg

Mike

[JWF III]

If you really have an enviornment where action is likely

If you're not a LEO, and you have an environment where action is likely, the best thing to do is stay out of it.

Things happen all the time, I'm not saying there is no need for carrying. I carry. But common sense, and avoidance of a bad situation will save your @$$ a lot more than a sixth (or even a sixteenth) shot.

I carry a 5 shot J-frame, and never felt under gunned. But I do watch where I go, and when I go there. I live outside of, and work in, Atlanta. There are quite a few areas of the city that I drive AROUND, especially at night. And I usually have another gun of some type in the truck with me, within easy reach.

Wyman

[sm]

The reality is, there will always be more evil in the world, than one can load up in a firearm at one time.

Hence the reason J.Q.Public is strongly urged to not go where trouble is, leave if trouble shows up, and have mindset and skillsets to deal with trouble whether it be using a tool like shoes to run, or using a cane, or using a firearm, or hitting the gas pedal, or...etc.

The faster folks realize they cannot buy physical objects to magically keep evil away, and magically deal with evil if evil shows up, the better off they will be.


It does not matter how many rounds a firearm holds, one has to know how to keep the gun fed. - Clint Smith.

[MachIVshooter]

How important would that sixth shot be in a fiveshooter?
How important would that seventh shot be in a sixhooter?
How important would that eighth shot be in a sevenhooter?
How important would that ninth shot be in an eighthooter?

Enough with revolvers.

How important would that 31st shot be in a thirty round mag?

Ill let you guys hash the rest of this out.

There's always a solution:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/100_0372.jpg

[BigBlock]

Only 2-3 shots per encounter? (a stat that is WRONG, btw, and even if it wasn't, it's an AVERAGE, not a maximum.) As my Dad always said "Averages are always wrong."

That stat is absolutely correct, and comes from the FBI. Further more, MOST confrontations where you might pull a gun do not end in shooting the gun even once. (that's another proven statistic) And your Dad is wrong. You're one of those pray and spray types that needs 17 9mms, aren't you? :banghead:

[Weedy]

Someday you may need just one more shot...but that could be the case with any weapon. Making sure you can hit what you're aiming at seems to make more sense than contemplating the capacity of your weapon. I reckon...

[David E]

That stat is absolutely correct, and comes from the FBI.

Yeah, I know. It's the "shots fired" stat. It's wrong because they ALSO include: Accidental discharges, warning shots, putting down animals, suicides, etc where single shots are fired. This skews the "shots fired" stat downward, making you ASSume 2-3 shots is all anyone will need.

Further more, MOST confrontations where you might pull a gun do not end in shooting the gun even once.

Except that the "shots fired" stat does NOT include a single "shots NOT fired" incident. It IS the "shots fired" stat, after all. :rolleyes:

Shall we presume, based on your citing this fact, that you carry an EMPTY gun?

(that's another proven statistic)

But you didn't cite it and I didn't challenge it. I was merely pointing out that the 2-3 shots fired stat is WRONG.

And your Dad is wrong.

Maybe you need to look up the word, "average." It is a single value that represents the general significance of a set of unequal values

Some encounters require less rounds, some require MORE, some maybe not even one. Maybe your encounter will land on the "less" or "none" side of things, but it just as easily may not. IF you carry a gun and IF you load it, do you only load 3 rounds? According to your citations, that's all you need, ...............right ?.......

You're one of those pray and spray types that needs 17 9mms, aren't you?

I can see where you get in trouble with your wild @$$ ASSumptions. You're not even close. But I do carry more than 5 rds. :D

.

[BigBlock]

If you honestly think you're going to get in a gun fight in your daily life and think you need more than a handfull of rounds, if any, I would consider you a delusional whack job. If you're a cop, it's a different story.

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale. If you get into that territory, you're already in way over your head.

[Big Bill]

How important do you think a sixth shot is in a self denfense situation?It's damned important, if you miss with the first five shots. So, get a speedloader and practice with it. I have four speedloaders for my SP101; and, I carry them all.

[hoptob]

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale.
Here you go, BigBlock: http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7795684p-7709118c.html

Mike

[Just One Shot]

It depends on the situation and how proficient you are with your handgun.

If you are up against multiple attackers, such as a home invasion, then the extra rounds could mean the difference between life and death.

If you are one on one at some distance and your attacker has cover you may need the extra rounds.

It's up to you to decide what to carry. Wether you go with a 5 shot, 6 shot or even a high capacity semi auto you should practice reloads as if you life depended on it because some day it might.

[Alchymist]

I would think 5 well placed shots would win out over 6 wild ones any day.

But I have a question - assuming a revolver in a confrontation: You have fired 4 rounds, and there is a momentary lull - perhaps just enough time to reload with a speedloader ----- do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or sit tight just in case.....?

[mudriver]

Does anyone have any data that might suggest how often police needed to reload in a defensive situation back in the day when police only used revolvers?? That might tell you how often statistically 5 or 6 is enough.

BTW - there are plenty of true stories about civilians and police emptying a semi auto and not hitting a thing (or maybe once). My favorite was a police officer chasing an undercover officer down a florida beach at night. the police officer emptied his gun and the undercover officer almost emptied his gun before he realized he was shooting at PD. No hits.

[scottishclaymore]

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale. If you get into that territory, you're already in way over your head.

I actually personally know of one such instance, where the good guy went through one and a half magazines of his XD-9. In total, though, I think he only scored four hits on the goblin, and the first magazine was actually only half emptied because the gun jammed mid-fight and he assumed the mag was already empty and ejected it. The fourth hit was the one that stopped the fight. It entered the pelvic girdle and hit a bone or an artery or something else fairly critical and the goblin finally went down.

My point here is that this guy was a good example of "pray and spray." Five rounds of .38 Special in the heart/lungs/CNS would have more than done the job. If you practice often and know your gun, I think five shots is going to be enough for any situation that can actually be handled with a handgun.

[David E]

No one, especially me, is advocating a "spray and pray" approach.

Bigblock's arrogance aside, there are many examples where 5 or even 6 shots simply were not enough.

Just this morning I received a DTI Quip from renowned firearms instructor, John Farnam. One of his students was the victim of a home invasion. The student reacted instantly with his Glock 38, firing SEVEN shots (attaining SEVEN hits) into the first badguy who stumbled backward and fell, dead. Would six hits have been enough? Five ? Two of those seven hits were declared "fatal." But were they the first two, or last two shots fired? Would one of those hits have stopped him just as fast without the second fatal hit? That's unknown. What IS known is, with the two fatal hits, he DID stop immediately.

As a side note, the badguys were wearing heavy winter clothing which hampered the 230 grain JHP's from opening up. A .38 JHP would have the same trouble, so maybe that 6th shot IS important, regardless of Bigblock's naive, yet pompous, assessment of such things.

If the badguy dies or not is irrelevant. What matters FIRST is, did he stop doing the act that you shot him for?

[earlthegoat2]

I was indirectly involved with a guy hopped up on drugs that ended the day with 19 holes of 9mm and 357 and 2 holes from 12 gauge slugs that were put into him over the course of 2 minutes.

[GTSteve03]

Personally, I always err on the side of more ammo. If carrying a 17rd 9mm makes me a "spray n pray" advocate, so be it.

I prefer to think of it as having a little extra insurance when the zombie invasion begins. ;)

[David E]

It's funny........the people that carry 5 shot revolvers think they are immune to the "spray and pray" mentality, whilst the hicap crowd is powerless to resist the urge to "spray and pray."

Nevermind that whole practice/mindset thing !

.

[Thaddeus Jones]

6ht shot, 7th shot, 8th shot, 30th shot,......yawn.

The shot that matters most is the first shot.

Practice getting that one on target, accurate and fast.

[BigBlock]

It's funny........the people that carry 5 shot revolvers think they are immune to the "spray and pray" mentality, whilst the hicap crowd is powerless to resist the urge to "spray and pray."
Yeah, that's pretty much the truth. Why else do you need 17 bullets? Revolver shooters have the discipline to put those shots where they need to be - if you actually NEED a high capacity gun you are not aiming.

Any "self defense" example where the person fired more than six from an auto is irrelivant, it is VERY, VERY common for people under such stress to empty the gun and keep pulling the trigger - even if the guy was dead on the first shot. (and for that reason I don't care in the slightest if there's another AWB)

[SigfanUSAF]

Let me say this:

I've gone from carrying a Sig P220 for the last 5 years to a pre-37 S&W Airweight.

I don't feel "undergunned" by any means.

If I really felt there was a great chance I'd need a sixth shot, or a sixteenth for that matter........I'd be carrying around my RRA Entry Tactical.

[f4t9r]

Lets see if I can help.
5 is better then 0
6 is better then 5
15 is better then 6
30 is better then 15 .............
Carry what you are comfortable with and able to shoot well.

[JLaw]

Soundtrakzz,

As you can see this can tend to be a can 'o worms...

There is no definite answer to the question of "Is five enough?". All I can offer is my opinion, be it right, wrong or indifferent.

The great majority of the time (~95% or better) my carry gun is a five shot .38 Spl. Why would I carry an anemic sub-caliber? Because it's easy to carry, because I can shoot it well, because it conceals easily for me, because I prefer revolvers over semi-auto's, because I'm more familiar with my revolvers than my semi-auto's. I do not reload a snubby fast, but I don't carry a back-up either. I do not feel out-gunned or unprotected.

That said, I do have a 2.5" 6 shot .357 Magnum, and carry it sometimes. Not because I feel like I need it more on any certain day, just because I'm in the mood to carry it.

Like SigfanUSAF said, if I thought I'd need that sixth shot, I probably should have had a long gun with me.

However, take all the above with a grain of salt... my handgun of choice is a revolver, my home defense shotgun ain't tactical, I'll take my Winchester 30-30 over an AR15 any day, and I still think that a slip-joint folding knife is the best thing since sliced bread.

JLaw

[10-Ring]

Knowing that my next gun fight will be my first, I feel perfectly secure w/ the 5 in my j frame ;)

[Fisherman_48768]

Is the 6th shot important? Not unless you missed with the first 5. In which case you'll probably miss with #6, hopefully you filed off the front sight.

[GTSteve03]

Is the 6th shot important? Not unless you missed with the first 5. In which case you'll probably miss with #6, hopefully you filed off the front sight.
Or you're up against 3 or more guys and would prefer to have more than 1 shot for each guy.

You know, bad guys play with the odds in their favor, especially when it comes to numbers.

[David E]

GTSteve, no, no, the "5 shots is enough for all situations" crowd seems to think that it'll always be ONE non-drug-crazed attacker, wearing a t-shirt who is predisposed to stopping his attack immediately with the first shot fired......

Me, I realize that 40% of the time, there will be MULTIPLE attackers, most likely at night and possibly drunk, high, crazy or any combination thereof who will not realize that they are supposed to cease their attack the instant I draw my gun.

.

[Alchymist]

GTSteve, no, no, the "5 shots is enough for all situations" crowd seems to think that it'll always be ONE non-drug-crazed attacker, wearing a t-shirt who is predisposed to stopping his attack immediately with the first shot fired......

Me, I realize that 40% of the time, there will be MULTIPLE attackers, most likely at night and possibly drunk, high, crazy or any combination thereof who will not realize that they are supposed to cease their attack the instant I draw my gun.


Which is why you have to practice with the speedloaders in the dark, both hands, etc.

So, no one is gonna take a stab at my previous question? (The one where you have fired 4 rounds in a SD situation, and there is a very short pause, possibly enough to reload via the speed loader...do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or stick it out with 2 remaining shots? :confused:

[Hostile Amish]

http://www.topguns.ch/images/big/Smith_Wesson.Large%20Frame%20(N).728881519.jpg

http://www.woodscustomrifles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/examples/.pond/8times.jpg.w300h247.jpg

[jeff-10]

FWIW my home defense gun is a S&W 686P. It holds 7 which I feel confortable with. However 5 not so much though realstically it probably is.

[GTSteve03]

So, no one is gonna take a stab at my previous question? (The one where you have fired 4 rounds in a SD situation, and there is a very short pause, possibly enough to reload via the speed loader...do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or stick it out with 2 remaining shots?
Personally, I think I would dump the two rounds in my hand, put them in my pocket as I grab the speedloader, and if I needed to, load the last 2 by hand later.

[johnnylaw53]

I have carried a beretta or sig with two reloads, an MP-5 with one reload and had 4 or 5 armed co workers with me and felt underguned. But we had an ideal what we was going against. Off duty my 5 shot 642 is normally all I carried and have never felt undergunned and a weapon with 6 shots wouldn't made me feel any better. It depends on your situration. Normally just displaying a weapon is all that is needed can't say how many times after a crime I began looking at what the victim did and felt even a single shot would of change things around. If you one of those people that put on a high cap weapon and two reloads to go get a gallon of milk that fine, truth is you more then likly wont need it but in the event you do and you one of those unlucky ones that attacked by several armed punks the chances are you going to lose the same as if you only had a 5 shot. What bother me is those that belives in large weapons for carry end up leaving them at home now and then because they only going to the corner store and that one punk with a pipe take them out. So it not is 6 better then 5, it's what you will have on you at all times of course it shouldn't have to be said but i will say it you still have to train with what you carry.

be safe

[Fred Fuller]

how important is a sixth shot?

I don't worry about it. Obviously some other folks do- a lot. I figure a five shooter in the pocket (hard to do with an SP101 IMHO, they're too heavy) is better than anything bigger left at home because it's too big/too heavy/too much trouble to carry all day every day. An airweight .38 in a pocket holster suits me, YMMV.

lpl

[David E]

How convenient for you to ignore ANY actual case where having a 7th or 8th shot made all the difference between living and dying.

Show me ONE situation where that happened. ONE!

There are many dozens. Are you too lazy to look 'em up yourself ?

You lost all credibility with me (and many others) when you posted your naive, freedom hating view on the AWB.

Carry a gun or don't. Load it or don't. I don't care!!

[sm]

Alchymist wrote:
So, no one is gonna take a stab at my previous question? (The one where you have fired 4 rounds in a SD situation, and there is a very short pause, possibly enough to reload via the speed loader...do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or stick it out with 2 remaining shots?

Being serious.

Keep in mind I have never attended a known gun school; all my lessons were private.

1. Go to Back up Gun (BUG).
Actually...I was taught to use weak hand to draw and fire, for "many" environments.

The reason being, bad guys will watch a mark, and know which hand is a person's strong hand, from them writing/signing something, like writing a check.
While one keeps "strong hand free" , if a BG is really tailing/casing you, they will watch for those things, one will do with strong hand.

The mindset being, "maybe" throwing the bad guy off his/her loop drawing and firing weak handed might allow Lady Luck to show up.
The BG may indeed target the strong side.

Many BGs work in teams, and have signals. One may think they are only dealing with one, or two BGs, instead they never see others, sending signals.
Simple things, like someone dropping a cigarette and crushing it under a right foot.
(a) you are confirmed to be taken down, (b) you are right handed as they watched you write a check.

If you were left handed, the cigarette would be crushed with the left foot.
You, or anyone else seeing this person crush out a cigarette, may never know he/she was part of the team to take you down.

Hey, it might be some gal with a baby/child, that moves that child to the other hip, to signal which is strong side.

2. Only 1 sidearm.
Again, my tasks for my environment.
I had others I worked with.

Speed strips, and they were always loaded with 4 rounds.
It did not matter if one of us had a S&W, Colt, or Ruger, nor how many rounds.
WE used Speed Strips with 4 rounds of standard pressure , 158 gr, LSWC.

Now one might be carrying a Model 19 snubby, with .357 loads, still if matters got serious, those Four, standard pressure, 158 gr, LSWC, would work in that gun.

Lessons were- keep the gun running, and do it quickly!
Get 4 in the gun and run it! Repeat!

Sure, you might hit an empty charge hole, just pull the darn trigger again!
Repetition become habit, habit becomes faith.

After you ran however many rounds your cylinder held, FOUR was burned into your brain, and human computer.
WE all had these lessons.

Again, tasks for the environment I and mine were in.

Granted we all pretty much carried the same platform ( make/ models of revolvers), still we did "work" with others, or were with others that carried guns.
Unwritten Code was - Revolvers for Defense, Semi for Offense.

C.R.Sam said the same thing.

Pay attention here, this is important.
WE blended in, and gave perceptions we wanted to give.
We did NOT want to look or act like Cops, or Military.

We carried 1911s, Full size and Commanders size, bone stock, except for gold bead front sight.
USGI/Colt 7 round mags, with dimple follower.

WE did NOT have ambis - still we did carry these "weak side".
You see, we did not trust anyone. We never knew whom was watching, or whom might blab.
i.e. having to go to a place where we had to unload and make safe a gun, like jail or prison.
We did not top off mags. We wanted to know /account for every round. It was for not us, also for whomever we had to lock up the gun under the care of.
WE never had a AD, in loading back up over the "bucket".

Now, if some BG sees, or finds out we use bone stock 1911s, meaning no Ambi, again, we "hopefully" had the element of surprise, and time for Lady Luck to show up, drawing and shooting from weak side with a 1911 with no ambi.

Criminals come in various models, and while some are dumb as hammers, some are not.
Some are extremely smart, and quite talented. Some are extremely knowledgeable about firearms, and are great shooters.

Me an mine dealt with models of criminals, many are not aware of, and being honest, many of you will never have to concern yourself with .
No offense, just you are not worth their time, as the return on what they get from you, is not worth their time.

I go w-a-y back on all this. We paid attention to when a Police Dept made changes - we did not want to have anything that might even hint of "Police".

We would work and area, and the issued guns might be Model 10 and Model 36.
So I for instance would carry a Ruger Six Series, another would Carry a Colt DS.

WE end up where Colt or Ruger where issued, we run S&W.
1911s and BHPs, we would run something else.

WE did Speed Strips, for a number of reasons, big one being, 4 rounds of .38spl standard pressure LSWC fit any make or model, no matter how many rounds, or if a dedicated .38spl or .357.

Break it down to simple.
Get 4 in the gun now and run it!

Set ups included areas where we could not carry a gun, but say a bad deal went down, and bank guard, or armored car guard was down, dead, we had loads to fit those revolvers, as .38spl was the issued gun.
Maybe the guard shot all the rounds...
Maybe I am disarmed of my gun, but over there is a dead bank guard, and if I got to the gun, or the one on a ankle, I had loads to fit that gun.

Err...you can forget how to count to 5 or 6 when matters get serious.
Just get 4 in the damn thing now and run it!

Again, tasks for environments that I and mine had private lessons, and did set ups for all sorts of situations.

-s

[SwordRapier]

You have unwittingly stirred up the revolver vs. auto controversy. I like both and have carried both. That being said I think if you like revolvers for whatever reason you should carry a revolver.

If you like the sp101 but your not sure about the five shot limit there is an alternative. The sp101 is also chambered in .327 federal. It’s the same frame as the three-inch sp101 but has the sixth round.

If you don’t want the 3 inch barrel Charter Arms makes a .327 six shooter in both a 2.2 and 4 inch barrel.

[BigBlock]

There are many dozens. Are you too lazy to look 'em up yourself ?
NO, there are not. Like I said, show me ONE, I doubt you can find it.


And to answer the original question, you are far more likely to be killed by a plane falling out of the sky than that sixth shot you don't have. Do you really need to worry this much about something that has such an infinitesimally small possibility of happening? You're more likely to increase your life span if you start exercising more and eating vegetables rather than carrying six rounds.

If you ever leave the house, or even if you don't, there's always a chance you can die that day. Doesn't matter how many rounds you've got.

[David E]

I found this after all of 20 seconds of searching.

From here on, YOU do your own research.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=82532

[BigBlock]

I found this after all of 20 seconds of searching.

From here on, YOU do your own research.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=82532

Where in that article does it say, and I quote "ANY actual case where having a 7th or 8th shot made all the difference between living and dying."

Doesn't say a word about that, how many bullets really did anything. Just because somebody fired twelve shots means nothing.

Again, David, you are arguing autos vs revolvers, while nobody else is.

[sm]

Folks, let us engage the argument and not each other.

*smile*

[Larry Ashcraft]

Let's get this one back on the high road.

Just a suggestion, you understand. :)

[Art Eatman]

Corrections should be made in a courteous and polite manner.

[30mag]

If your plan B is to hit the guy with the sixth shot, you need a better plan A.

[AKElroy]

If you honestly think you're going to get in a gun fight in your daily life and think you need more than a handfull of rounds, if any, I would consider you a delusional whack job. If you're a cop, it's a different story.

Do I think I am going to get in a gunfight? Nope. Am I a delusional whack job for carrying a 10 shot G27 + a spare mag? Don' think so. Cops are not the only people in high risk jobs. I could list 100 jobs that put people at risk equal if not exceeding LE, and being one of those people, I am not comfortable with just 5 rounds.

[SavageMOA]

It's only important if the first 5 don't hit him.

[XavierBreath]

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale. If you get into that territory, you're already in way over your head.Travis Deen Neal, a citizen. Houston Texas. January 21, 1994. CZ-75, three 15 round mags of ammunition, plus what was in the gun. He had the loaded magazines in his vehicle because he was headed to the range. Mr. Neal used all his ammunition. He saved his own life, as well as that of a sheriff's deputy.

Unfortunately, I cannot find an online citation for Mr. Neal's story, but it is available for your reading pleasure in Robert Waters' book The Best Defense. People who have been into guns a while will recognize Mr. Neal as the Texan who testified before Congress as an advocate for full capacity magazines. He was a very effective witness.

Doug Stanton (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/02/mercilessly-plan-relentlessly-prepare.html) is another example that immediately pops to mind.

Hence the reason J.Q.Public is strongly urged to not go where trouble is, leave if trouble shows up, and have mindset and skillsets to deal with trouble whether it be using a tool like shoes to run, or using a cane, or using a firearm, or hitting the gas pedal, or...etc.

The faster folks realize they cannot buy physical objects to magically keep evil away, and magically deal with evil if evil shows up, the better off they will be.


Rather than be concerned about a sixth shot, I am more concerned about a sixth sense. sm is correct. Mindset is important. Awareness and the ability to detect trouble before it detects you is far more important. It is impossible to avoid "bad areas" as bad people leave bad areas frequently in search of prey (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/07/evil-among-us.html). Being able to recognize and avoid an impending criminal encounter that will lead to an attack is far more important than how many rounds your gun holds. Developing the ability to recognize the encounter before it even happens is key. Strive to avoid the encounter, avoid the criminal interview process, as well as the attack. If you remove yourself from the victim selection process, the chances of you being attacked drop significantly.

I'm sure that some will poo poo that idea, as the pervasive line of thought is often to just carry a gun and deal with trouble when it comes. But if you can avoid the encounter all together, you never have to deal with court, attorneys, and the aftermath of a shooting. That kind of makes it worthwhile to many people.

Most people will carry what they are comfortable with based on the perceptions of their own needs. That's the same with everything, from the amount of money you carry, to the shoes you wear, to the automobile you drive, to the people you associate with. There is no use arguing the point and trying to get another person to subscribe to your way of thinking. They have different experiences and perceptions. For every statement there is an exception, as I have tried to show. Thus bullheaded arguments in either direction are quickly seen as ad hominem attacks. We try not to do that here.

At one time I liked to carry a lot of rounds in my gun. 15+1 made me comfortable. Later in life, 7+1 was fine. Often, I now feel secure with five in a snub. I still like 7+1 at times, but five is easier and I figure it should do the trick most of the time. There may be a time when I want 15+1 again, indeed a time when I want 30 in a rifle again.

What I do and think makes no difference though. If you don't feel comfortable carrying that, then it's not right for you. I do urge you to explore other options, understand the place of your weapon in your life and defense, and to develop a sixth sense rather than worry about a sixth round. An extra round will not guarantee you anything if you don't have the instincts to go along with it. It never was the arrow, it was the indian. It isn't the gun, it's the man behind it that matters.

edited to add: This subject of handgun capacity, whether revolver or semi-auto is an important one, for many reasons. Thus, I hesitate to close this thread. The last thing we, as gun owners, need is another high profile gun person making a Bill Ruger type statement about capacity requirements. Even if we sincerely believe five rounds are enough for ourselves, we need to know and understand the cases of when that may not be so for a private citizen. In time, we may again be forced to defend our right to own a gun with a capacity greater than ten rounds, five rounds, or even one round, based on some of these very same arguments. To defend our rights, it is important to know both sides of the coin.

Further, some will no doubt notice a few missing posts. Namecalling and ad hominem attacks are contrary to the rules that govern us at The High Road. Up to this point, I am giving a pass in this thread and have simply made such posts invisible to all but the staff. There will be no second chances. If you are unfamiliar with the rules you agreed to on registration here, or have forgotten them because it has been so long, there is a link to them at the top right of each page of the forum. A review is suggested. There is no need to become so emotionally invested in what another member does that it endangers your ability to post. Thanks.

[David E]

BigBlock: Where in that article does it say, and I quote "ANY actual case where having a 7th or 8th shot made all the difference between living and dying."

Jeanne Assam fired 10-12 shots, stopping the killer at that church.

You dismiss it, because it goes contrary to your opinion.

The fact remains, if Ms. Assam only had FIVE shots, the killer likely would NOT have been stopped and other innocent people would've been murdered as a result.

.

[FullEffect1911]

how important is a sixth shot?

I think this is an easy question to answer actually with another question. How accurate and fast are you with a 5 shot snub? Are you considerably better with a six or seven shot L frame? How about a 6 or 8 shot N frame? 15+1 semi? Choose accordingly to what you are proficient with and can/will carry.

[BigBlock]

You're right David, the thousands of people carrying five shot revolvers are all in grave danger. :rolleyes::banghead:

Revolvers have been FIVE shot ever since the 1860s when they were invented. You couldn't load all six and carry safely. Those five shooters put a LOT of people in their graves.

[tipoc]

Odd discussion.

Few shooters choose to carry only 5 shots. What they choose is to carry is an easily concealed revolver that can be carried when a larger gun can't be or wouldn't suit the situation (that guest appearance on "Dancing With The Stars" for example). They choose the wheelgun because a small auto, for whatever reason, doesn't fit the person or the situation. Many of these smaller guns carry 5 rounds. So the choice is to carry a small revolver, that it carries only 5 rounds is secondary. It could carry 6 but the one that suits you and the one you got carries 5.

Are 5 rounds enough? Well 5 rounds of what? .45 Colt, .38 Spl., .44 Spl. ? And enough for what? If you know you're walking into trouble a long gun would be the first choice and a 5 shot J frame down the list. But for most of the day to day things (the 6:30 showing of "He's Just Not That Into You" with the spouse, for example) 5 rounds of .38 and a decent knife are more than enough. But if the ex husband has threatened to kill ya a bit more would be helpful.

tipoc

[Monster Zero]

Speaking of five shots... I like the SP101, in fact my wife has one. But... I've been kinda taking an interest in the Taurus .41 magnum 5-shooter. Pricey ammo no doubt, but... with a 2.5" barrel, every bit as carry-friendly as a k-frame, and it's gotta be even better stopping power than a .357... right?

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=192&category=Revolver

[David E]

Revolvers have been FIVE shot ever since the 1860s when they were invented. You couldn't load all six and carry safely. Those five shooters put a LOT of people in their graves.

This, of course, totally misses the point. :rolleyes:

In the old west EVERYONE had 5 shots, altho the serious ones carried more than one gun. So they, too, had MORE than 5 shots and often went to the second (or third) gun.

The # 1 rule is, HAVE A GUN. If you know you won't carry anything larger than a 5-shot J-frame, then the J-frame is the gun for you.

That said, not all guns are equal. J-frames are hard to shoot well, quick to empty and slow to reload.

Still, Rule #1 remains in effect.

[hoptob]

Excellent points, tipoc. There is a big difference between 5x 200 gr. LRN 38 spl and 5x full house 357 mags.

BigBlock, why is it not safe to carry single action revolver fully loaded?

Mike

[30mag]

Buy two.
:)

[drjoker]

Statistically, the average lawful civilian gunfight is over in 2.3 shots. This will take care of 68% of all situations. 4.6 shots will take care of 95% of all situations and 6.9 shots will take care of 99% of situations.

In low to medium risk situations, 5 shots will be enough. In high risk situations, 7 shots or more would be the minimum. For a soccer mom, 5 shots would be enough to drive the kids to school and get a latte afterwards. For a woman forced to walk home from work alone downtown, I suggest 7 shots or more.

Therefore, the ammo capacity of the gun you need depends on your daily risk level. For example, in Plano (a suburb outside Dallas), the murder rate is 1 in 100,000 annually. In Dallas, it is 17-19 in 100,000. A night on the town in downtown is gonna require an auto pistol with a high capacity mag. Taking the kids to school in the burbs is gonna require a revolver. Your risk level decides your armament level. So, assess your risk first, then decide.

P.S. if you live in Chicago or Louisiana, the murder rate is 29 to 60 per 100,000. Man, I don't go to those cities because of the crime. I wouldn't feel comfortable in those cities with even an UZI packed away. Stay safe.

[JLaw]

"Statistically, the average lawful civilian gunfight is over in 2.3 shots. This will take care of 68% of all situations. 4.6 shots will take care of 95% of all situations and 6.9 shots will take care of 99% of situations." -drjoker

drjoker,

Those do sound like statistics I hear all the time. Is this information available anywhere that you know, is it cited somewhere in a study or report?

(I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I am looking for actual statistics like this to settle a few personal disputes!)

JLaw

EDIT : Please read post #91 for an explanation of the term "personal disputes" I used above, the context is explained there.

[tipoc]

(I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I am looking for actual statistics like this to settle a few personal disputes!)

How many personal disputes? Will it take more than 5 rounds? 6? 27?:)

if you live in Chicago or Louisiana, the murder rate is 29 to 60 per 100,000. Man, I don't go to those cities because of the crime. I wouldn't feel comfortable in those cities with even an UZI packed away.

Given that between Chicago and the entire state of Louisiana there are a couple million people seems like most of those folks have a different assessment of their immediate danger. Maybe they all carry J frames. :)

Making realistic assessments of potential danger is a skill that needs developing only a part of it has to do with what gun and how many rounds you carry. More of it has to do with behavior. If you get in a lot of barfights, get angry at folks who "steal" your parking space at the mall, cruise the streets and alleys at 3 a.m. looking for hookers, hate cops and punch 'em out every time you run into one, were disapponited that Y2K didn't lead to the collapse of society cuz you were looking forward to Mad Max days, etc. maybe the biggest decision you have to make ain't how many rounds to carry.

Most of us make some assessment of our day to day situations and somehow get by with 5 or 6 rounds and a speed loader or two and never need that. 99.9% of the time, if you carry a gun, your response to potential trouble will be, or should be, the same as if you did not have one on you. Works best that way as there are more useful weapons at hand.

tipoc

[Bubba613]

If you don't carry a Glock 19 with Ashley Big Dot front sight you might as well lie down in the gutter and die.

No, really the advantage of the six shot revolver over the five is that the 6 gives more grip and is more controllable in rapid fire. The extra shot is a bonus.
I carry a 6-shot snub and a 5-shot backup and frequently feel over-gunned.

As for internet stories of people who saved their lives with 35 rounds, there are internet stories of people winning millions of dollars. So go out and buy all the lottery tickets you can.

[David E]

The 2.3 rounds fired is wrong. That stat is not limited to civilian only encounters and includes warning shots, suicides, accidental discharges, putting down an animal, etc. Clearly this skews the "shots fired" downward.

No, you probably won't need 35 shots, but Jeanne Assam fired 10-12, thereby saving dozens of lives. That badguy had 1000 rds and 3 guns with which to commit his murder and mayhem.

If she'd only had a 5-shot snubby, especially without a reload, dozens would've died.

If the choice was a 5-shot J-frame or a 6-shot Colt Agent, the size.weight difference is so small that it would seem silly to give up that 6th shot.

But enough folks think the size/weight difference IS significant, so they carry the J-frame, often without a reload.

Those folks, like many who have posted in this thread, regard their gun as a talisman instead of a serious fighting tool.

.

[David E]

I don't carry a gun for "personal disputes." That term invokes images of minor disagreements.

I carry it strictly for self defense purposes when deadly force may be required.

[drjoker]

Well,

The 2.3 shots per incident is from the DOJ and that may include suicides, so the figure might be skewed lower than what really goes on. Police statistics point towards 5-6 shots before the 80's and 9-13 shots in the 90's. In other words, policemen usually emptied their revolvers (<1980) or autopistols (>1990) in a gunfight. This was an issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement.

Anyways, my point wasnt' the number of shots fired. My point is to make a realistic assessment of your risk and deal with that rather than an unrealistic scenario. If I'm going to an NRA event or a gun show, I'll carry nothing. No BG is gonna mess with that, so the risk level is zero. If I'm going to the local grocery store in the burbs, I'll carry a revolver or a derringer or a kel-tec p3AT. The risk level is very low. If I'm going to drop off the kids at school, I'll carry a revolver. Gun free zones are inherently dangerous. That's why serial killers always kill there because the citizens are helpless and defenseless there. Thank God I live in Texas. It is legal to carry a gun in your car in Texas even if you are in a gun free zone such as a school. It is legal in the parking lot. If I'm going downtown at night (which I try to avoid), I'll carry a glock 19. If you're expecting trouble, an AK47 is the only way to go. For example, your wife is in the home and as you come home, you see the door has been busted in from the outside. That's when you reach into the gun rack of your pickup and pull out the AK. If nobody's home, I'll call the cops and wait. No property is worth losing my head over.

BTW, you don't need more then 2-3 bullets per assailant if you are well trained. Yes, you will miss if you have a stressful gunfight. However, you can simulate stress in training. I am currently taking a self-defense pistol private lessons and my instructor would randomly pinch me, slap me upside the head, or hit me with his walker to simulate combat stress. I am expected to shoot accurately while being pinched, lightly punched, and smacked upside the head. I practice to ignore stress and shoot accurately despite it, thereby not wasting ammo, even while under stress.

[JLaw]

David E wrote - "I don't carry a gun for "personal disputes." That term invokes images of minor disagreements.

I carry it strictly for self defense purposes when deadly force may be required."

Yes sir, that is correct. I carry for the same reasons you do, strictly for defense. I should have worded my statement better...

...By "personal disputes" I am refering to some ongoing debates between myself and a few friends who carry concealed also. We occassionally debate this same thing between ourselves. The reason I asked drjoker if he could cite a source for that data is so that I will have something to back up my argument to them.

JLaw

[David E]

BTW, you don't need more then 2-3 bullets per assailant if you are well trained.

Your "risk assessment" is interesting. Me, I'm not psychic, so I carry a gun all the time. If I knew when, exactly, I'd need the gun, I wouldn't go there. Instead, I'd be at the store picking the winning numbers for my lottery ticket.

There are many cases where the badguy took more than 2-3 rds, so don't take too much stock in "2-3 rds will stop anyone!" mantra.

I encourage you to test your highly honed shooting skills at an IDPA or IPSC match. I'd be curious how your "induced stress training" will work for you. (they don't pinch you while you're shooting, just so you know.)

.

[David E]

By "personal disputes" I am refering to some ongoing debates between myself and a few friends who carry concealed also. We occassionally debate this same thing between ourselves.

NOW it makes sense. Thanks for the clarification !

.

[robsc]

How important is the sixth shot?

The sixth shot is extremely important after you have put down five attackers and the seventh attacker is standing directly behind the sixth.

[30mag]

I think that you need to practice reloading alot if you're worried.

[SwampWolf]

I can't imagine that anybody involved in a gunfight would ever have complained about having too many bullets at his disposal. If you absolutely knew that you were going to be in a gunfight and you had a choice, let's say, between a Smith 686 and a 686+-who would be so foolish as to opt for the six shot version over the seven shot model? Do you really think all of the training in the world will keep you from missing a shot (or shots) when under fire in the most stressful and uncontrolled event you will probably ever experience in your life? And yes, I understand the importance of good and regular training - over thirty years in le has allowed me to see and experience the vast improvements that we have made in self-defense training techniques over the years. But all other things being as equal as practical, I'll always opt for that extra bullet in a time of dire need. If you need an extra, you really need one.

And as far as gunfighters in the wild west being content with the five-shooters they had available at the time, which weapon do you think Wyatt Earp would have selected had it been available to him from, say a time traveler from the future, as he made his way to the OK Corral: his trusty Peacemaker or a SIG 220?

Finally, some have made much of the supposed tendency of a fellow with a six-shooter to "spray and pray" as opposed to the supposed more resolute guy with the five-shooter. Sorry, but the guy lacking adequate training and discipline will be the one firing with reckless abandon, whether he's armed with a derringer or a MAC 10, and the fellow equipped with the proper training and exercising good mental control will be husbanding his shots, even if armed with a submachine gun.

[vikz]

5 shots of 44mag is more than plenty, heck even if you missed the 1st shot, just the sound of the 44mag will scare the crap of anybody, I read some where you dont carry for comfort you carry for safety so carry the biggest caliber you can carry and go from there..

[Bubba613]

If she'd only had a 5-shot snubby, especially without a reload, dozens would've died.
Pure conjecture. In any case basing one's lifestyle on one incident is incredibly stupid and short sighted.

Ed Lovette writes that police carried a six shot with a 5 shot backup. This covered more than 90% of incidents. So fewer than 10% required a reload. And that is for police. I don't know how many times private citizens have had to reload but I'll bet not many. I'll take those odds to Vegas any day. Certainly better than risking a jam from a jamomatic when my grip was weak or imperfect.

[David E]

It's not conjecture, it's a reasoned conclusion. But maybe only ONE dozen people would've died, or maybe only 8 people......maybe just a couple more before someone else stopped the attack. So, what was your point ?

One thing private citizens do not have is a radio to call for immediate back-up. Cops do.

It's interesting that you cite cops to make your 90% point (let's just overlook that other 10% where 6 shot revolvers were not enough....:rolleyes: ) when cops have left the revolver in droves.

If it worked so well, why not keep it? Maybe because something else works better ? If it works better for cops, why wouldn't it work better for a private citizen ?

You feel "safe" carrying a 5-shot snubby, great. I hope it's enough.

.

[SwampWolf]

I'll take those odds to Vegas any day. Certainly better than risking a jam from a jamomatic when my grip was weak or imperfect.

If you're a real betting man, don't carry a gun at all. It's much more comfortable and no need to debate the merits of caliber or type of bullet or if you've secured the right grip or not, let alone whether five rounds are enough or not, because chances ("those odds you referenced") are that you'll never be in a situation where you'd need a gun anyhow. You might even want to visit a lawnmower site if you're interested in increasing the odds of you being injured or killed while pursuing your everyday activities.

[ndh87]

Did you miss the first 5 shots? I laughed at that at first... then i though about some of the people i've seen at the range:uhoh:
5 rounds is enough to get 2 in the chest and 1 to the head and still have extra.

[inSight-NEO]

I dont know... How good is your aim? How well do you perform under extreme pressure?

Regardless, if we are talking HD situations here, a 6th shot probably wouldn't amount to much if the first 5 hit nothing.

BTW- Is this going to be for conceal/carry? If so, I can understand choosing a snubbie. Of course, with this I would be more concerned about weapon control vs ammo capacity. However, if this is mainly for HD use and not CC, Id recommend you look at the GP100 series in the 4" barrel configuration. This would give you greater capacity (just in case, although not really necessary), better control (particularly if using "full house" .357 Magnum loads or .38 Special +P loads), and still allow you to have a relatively short barrel.

[SharpsDressedMan]

Five or six. Doesn't matter. Start by loading one round, and practice. Do NOT load two rounds until you hit everything, EVERY time, with one round. Then you'll be ready to try the same with 2, or 3, etc.

[Bubba613]

It's interesting that you cite cops to make your 90% point (let's just overlook that other 10% where 6 shot revolvers were not enough.... ) when cops have left the revolver in droves.

If it worked so well, why not keep it? Maybe because something else works better ? If it works better for cops, why wouldn't it work better for a private citizen ?
Only because there is more data. The stats for private citizens will show even less need to reload.
Cops have left the revolver because there is a desire to militarize among police agencies. They thought they were "outgunned" by drug dealers with their hi cap wondernines. In fact they were under trained. Handing them a Glock with multiple mags is not substitute for training. This is why you read about cops firing 127 shots at the suspect and hitting him 7 or 8 times.
It wasn't much of a savings though, when you factor in lost court cases for excessive force and the like.
If you expect to miss a lot then you really need 15 rounds plus reloads. I don't expect to miss. Heck, I don't expect to need it much at all, just like my spare tire.

If you're a real betting man, don't carry a gun at all.
I am a real betting man. And I bet you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

[GJgo]

(In case someone hasn't already said it, didn't read all 5 pages!)

One nice thing about the SP101 is that even if you're out of rounds, you can still use the thing as a weapon or a tool- it's a solid peice of steel. You can't say that about an empty Glock..

[Rexster]

Just a few rambling thoughts, from a guy who has been wearing a big-city police badge 25 years this week, and paying attention:

I took a robbery report recently, from a teenager who was set upon by FIVE bad guys, two from one direction, armed with at least a shotgun, and three from another direction, armed with at least one 9mm handgun. The two groups appeared to be coordinating their robbery with mobile phones, and it may have been a gang initiation robbery. The complainant dodged, ducked, and ran, then dodged, ducked, ran again, and went over two fences to get away. It seems the bad guys wanted his I-pod. Until shortly before this incident, I had walked our dogs in that very area, and still sometimes stop at a small convenience store there. I still have relatives that live in that neighborhood, which is a "nice" neighborhood. I sometimes walk their dogs for them in that area. While the complainant got by without a firearm, he was also much quicker and agile than me, plus very lucky. There was no indication my complainant was a gang member; he was just trying to walk home from his after-school job.

A couple of weeks after this robbery attempt, two blocks away, a couple was robbed by two gun-toting white guys. While no shots were fired, how do y'all think the male complainant would have felt if the bad guys would have wanted to take his girlfriend/wife with them for post-robbery entertainment?

After finishing a long night shift in the 1980's, I got home and pulled my S&W M58 from the duty rig, and heard metal rattling in a way that should not be. I removed the grip screw, pulled the grip panels apart, and out fell the mainspring, in two pieces. I had gotten in a hurry the evening before, and neglected to strap my backup J onto my ankle. And, no, before anyone mentions it, my M58's mainspring was stock; it had not been "shaved" or otherwise altered. I have been somewhat religious about backup weapons since then, even if that backup was just a very stout blade, at times.

The second scenario above brings up the factor of being responsible for the safety of others. Being alone, with just the desire to break contact, differs greatly from being with folks who are slower, weaker, or otherwise unable to see to their own defense. Five rounds is probably plenty for breaking off an attack, if you have room to maneuver. If I have to move to rescue someone, I want far more than five rounds. This is a decision every armed person has to make for himself, and still be able to look at himself in the mirror after an incident.

From about 2002 to 2007, my most-carried handgun was a Ruger SP101 snubby, loaded with hot .357 ammo. My second-most-carried handgun was a second SP101, similarly loaded. 2002 is the year I had to give up 1911 pistols for duty/carry, and started using a G22 for duty. I generally carried TWO SP101 snubbies when out of uniform; sometimes even a third revolver, SP101 or Speed Six. In 2007, I finally settled on a couple of good concealment holsters for my P229 duty pistols, and a SP101 gradually ceased being a permanent attachment to my body, and became a selectively-carried back-up by 2008.

For about a year now, I have usually carried two P229 pistols with me at all times. It is not because I think five shots is not enough, but because I think two handguns may not be enough. THAT should probably be discussed in a new thread, rather than causing this one to drift. Google FBI, Platt, Florida, Hanlon, Dove, Mireles. That incident was a microcosm of what can happen when things go really bad.

For what it is worth, I have fired one shot in the line of duty, which hit one bad guy in the important bits, and it was enough. One shot, not to the COM in general, but to the heart and left lung, in particular. If I had just hit a lung, I might well have needed more. Had it been a slower-moving bullet, I might well have needed more. Or, perhaps a .32 ACP on the same place would have worked. (I used a Federal 125-grain full-power .357 mag JHP.)

I remember the previously-mentioned Neel incident, in which he saved that deputy; it was in this area.

[manfromyard]

Jeanne Assam fired 10-12 shots, stopping the killer at that church.

You dismiss it, because it goes contrary to your opinion.

The fact remains, if Ms. Assam only had FIVE shots, the killer likely would NOT have been stopped and other innocent people would've been murdered as a result.

I haven't seen how many shots actually HIT the assailant. If she only hit him with 2 or 3 shots, then all the other ones were wasted and she could have potentially hit innocents. The issue of how many bullets a person needs is directly tied in with their ability to actually hit the target in an effective spot. That is, assuming there's only one armed assailant. Once you have multiples, it's not a question of how many shots you need, it's how well you can use cover and get the heck out of the area.

[shamanjp]

I am quite new to concealed carry and to this forum. I have found this thread to be quite interesting.
First I would like to say thank you to all the LEO's out there.
For the rest of us, at least from my point of view carrying a gun makes me even more vigilant in avoiding any confrontation. I highly recommend a book by Gavin De Becker called "the Gift of Fear".
My firearm gives me some sense of security for the safety of my family and myself in a last resort situation. It also gives me many enjoyable days at the range practicing my skills. Skills that I have never tested in a life and death situation and hope I never do.
You can not possibly know how many rounds you will need going into an unknown situation.
Carry what makes you feel secure. Carry what you can shoot well, especially those first shots. Do everything in your power to never need to use it.
If I must go somewhere I do not feel safe, not only do I bring my weapon but I take a friend or two as well.

[red headed stranger]

There are a couple ideas being thrown out there by those espousing the 5 is enough philosophy:

The issue of how many bullets a person needs is directly tied in with their ability to actually hit the target in an effective spot

The problem is very few of us know how well we can hit a moving active shooter while under the stress of the situation. Most people's skills are severely degraded under pressure even if they are "well trained." This coupled with the fact that Handgun rounds are marginal stoppers, make me more likely to carry more than just a j-frame. I am not advocating "spray and pray" mind you. I am advocating shooting the goblin(s) until they stop.

Once you have multiples, it's not a question of how many shots you need, it's how well you can use cover and get the heck out of the area.

I agree, that if your strategy is to disengage and get out of Dodge, 5 shots is probably plenty. However, many may not be able, or desire to disengage if others are still in danger. If I were in a situation in which my wife and kids were with me, I would need to ensure that they are they were out of harms way before leaving myself. That may require a few more rounds. This largely dictates my own comfort level with the amount of rounds I have may have on me. (26-31 in most cases.) I'm not saying I would use all of them, but I sincerely would prefer to have and not need, rather than need and not have. Also keep in mind that if your are carrying a bottom feeder, it is a darn good thing to have a reload to clear some malfunctions.

That is my opinion. YMMV.

[SwampWolf]

If you expect to miss a lot then you really need 15 rounds plus reloads. I don't expect to miss. Heck, I don't expect to need it much at all, just like my spare tire.


Quote:
If you're a real betting man, don't carry a gun at all.

I am a real betting man. And I bet you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

Hey, bubba, you don't know me or others from Adam and yet you apparently feel free to hurl insults at people just because they don't agree with your point of view. Words like "stupid" and "short sighted" and the above quoted juvenile slam just doesn't cut it when adults are trying to have a civil discourse.

For your information, though not close to being the best shot in the world, I've pounded a lot of lead downrange over the past fifty or so years in many shooting disciplines. In addition to thousands of shots fired in recreational and hunting pursuits, I spent four years as an Air Policeman in the USAF where I competed during that period of time with rifle and handgun; shot on the intercollegiate trap team; shot on numerous bullseye teams as well as the local trapshooting league; qualified bi-annually for 26 years while serving the state in law enforcement; shot in countless firearm self-defense courses and have competed regularly at Camp Perry in both bullseye pistol and the service rifle course of fires (am scheduled this year again for same as well as shooting the "pop-ups" this April).

I am pushing 66 years old and am struggling with cataracs and "floaters" in my eyes. That said, walking inside that barn you talk about scares me none at all. But, unlike yourself, bubba, my years of training and experience have taught me that the stress of a shootout will cause most people to miss more times than they ever thought they could when they were competing on the range or even while participating in the most demanding and realistic training known to man. Maybe even missing your target while inside that barn! Good training that kicks in and a cool composure while under fire will help immeasurably in your surviving a gunfight. But if you don't plan and train for the possibility of missing a shot or two, well, bubba, your "training" needs to start reckoning with reality.

Like I said earlier, nobody I know of that was involved in a gunfight ever complained about having too many bullets on board. When you need that sixth shot, you really need it.

[Bubba613]

Like I said earlier, nobody I know of that was involved in a gunfight ever complained about having too many bullets on board. When you need that sixth shot, you really need it.
No one ever complained his gun was too small or the bullet too slow either. That isn't the time to ask people. After a fight no gun is enough.
So it's a worthless point.

But given your alleged age and physical condition you absolutely need 15+ rounds. Don't settle for any less.

[XavierBreath]

I hated to close this thread. The topic is an important one to many people. Unfortunately, some folks just could not stay away from personal attacks.

That is indeed unfortunate.