45 Colt with 405 gr cast bullets, how fast?


PDA






Bigfoot
March 9, 2009, 08:24 PM
I'm gathering components to start reloading for a Taurus Thunderbolt with a 26" barrel. I'm limited to the standard 45LC OAL. I want to shoot the heaviest cast bullets posssible at 1000 - 1050 fps. No need to ask why. What's the heaviest bullet that I should buy to try? If experienced reloaders here don't think that this velocity can be reached with the 405s then I'll save the money and spend it towards 385 or 350 gr bullets instead.

I'm aware that some of these heavies will have to be swaged down.

Thanks in advance for sticking to the subject.

Bigfoot

If you enjoyed reading about "45 Colt with 405 gr cast bullets, how fast?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Coal Dragger
March 9, 2009, 09:03 PM
I don't know if your goal is safe in that rifle from a pressure standpoint. A 405gr bullet at 1000-1100fps is probably very possible from a .45LC case as it has enough powder capacity, I just don't know that I would want to run it in an action that is not proven to handle heavy loads.

Lone_Gunman
March 9, 2009, 09:31 PM
Does someone make a .452 diameter 405 g bullet to be used in 45 Colt?

The only 405 g bullets I am aware of are .458 diameter, and for use in calibers like 45/70.

publiuss
March 9, 2009, 09:32 PM
Those great big bullets will probably cause pressure problems, I would drop down to a 325 which you can push faster than 1100. You will get very good penetration w/a 325 LBT or SWC.

Jubjub
March 10, 2009, 12:01 AM
Heavy bullets seated deep in the case is the classic recipe for disaster in reloading. And of course Thunderbolt is a nice gun, but it isn't what you would call strong. I wouldn't try to hot rod loads for it even a little bit.


Good luck to you, but seriously, if you want a .458 Socom, buy a .458 Socom.

doubs43
March 10, 2009, 01:35 AM
The standard bullet for the .45LC is about 250 grains and it moves relatively slow. The .45LC case is thin and won't handle the pressures you'd find necessary to achieve the velocities you want with a 405 grain bullet. It's a recipe for disaster.

zxcvbob
March 10, 2009, 01:54 AM
405 grain cast rifle bullet sized down to about .452 over a compressed charge of Lil'Gun might do it safely. That's the only combination I can come up with for a bullet that heavy. W296 comes pretty close.

GooseGestapo
March 10, 2009, 10:25 AM
I most definitely WOULD NOT , REPEAT NOT load or shoot any of the 405gr .458" bullets through your Taurus Thunderer.

I don't know exactly what level of pressures the steel will take, but the design was for black-powder level loads and the locking mechanisim probably won't take much more than Black Powder equivalent loads.

But, thats not a condemnation of the gun.....

A friend of mine has one, and weve shot a LOT of handloads through it, and he killed a doe with it this past December. The rifle is decently accurate, and a joy and thrill to shoot. I even got complained on by a "difficult" neighbor for shooting a machine gun. We were running "speed drills" with the Taurus and dumping 10rds in about 3 seconds. Load is 7.8gr of Universal under a Lee 255gr FRN at .452" with SPG lube.

The heaviest load I'd try through it would be a 300-315gr with a crimp groove for the SAA type revolvers. There's plenty of data in the manuals for such loads, so I won't go there....

In theory, the 405's might work, but in reality, the velocity would probably be around 500-600fps, and would require to be sized down to fit the chamber, and would also be too long to feed unless a different groove was cut or turned into it. Besides that, the accuracy I've gotten from Lee 340gr .458" bullets I sized down to .452 rendered the excercise moot.... Accuracy was non-existant.... A non-sized bullet probably would buldge the case to where it wouldn't chamber anyhow...

The 255gr FN's work superlative on deer at the 1,150-1,250fps you'll get from the Taurus, and will shoot clean through most any deer at most any angle. Enough, really !!!!

Enjoy your rifle.
If you want/need a .45/70, you can get a good used Marlin 1895 for about what your Hospital will want for a deductible on your health insurance claim after you blow up your Taurus..........

mgkdrgn
March 10, 2009, 08:53 PM
I most definitely WOULD NOT , REPEAT NOT load or shoot any of the 405gr .458" bullets through your Taurus Thunderer.

Would you trust a lever gun designed for 454 Casull to handle heavy/hot 45 Colt loadings?

Maelstrom
March 10, 2009, 09:19 PM
Actually, in that case I'd just use the Casull brass, which is far stronger, and allows a little more leeway in deep seating.

Jubjub
March 10, 2009, 09:57 PM
What on earth does the .454 Casull have to do with this?

The guy in the OP is asking about loading 45/70 bullets into .45 Long Colt brass specifically to be fired in a rifle that is essentially a light load cowboy action toy. What he envisions would almost certainly result in a wrecked rifle at best, and sudden death by large gun parts being propelled into his skull at worst.

Here's a hint. If no loading manual has the load that you want, there's probably a reason.

Bigfoot
March 10, 2009, 10:41 PM
Talk down to someone else Jubjub. I asked how fast the 405s could be pushed, yes swaged down as the OP said. If not fine, you and some others here are pretending that the OP said that I was dead set on using them at that 1000-1050. Please take your need to have your ego boosted somewhere else.

Posting a question here shouldn't be like hanging a "I'm an Idiot, Kick Me" sign on my back.

The second highlighted part of the OP asked what is the heaviest bullet that could achieve the goal of 1000-1050. Anyone? I've been reading up on the Thunderbolt and the 45 Colt since starting the thread so I think that I know the answer but I'd like to hear from others with experience.

To those who read the OP and answered respectfully thank you very much.

Bigfoot

danweasel
March 10, 2009, 10:46 PM
Hahahaha

Jubjub
March 10, 2009, 10:55 PM
I never called anyone anything.

My basic reading comprehension level is such that I understood the part of your post about swaging the bullets down. My grasp of the issues is such that, in my opinion, and based on my experience with the Taurus Thunderbolt that I have fired, and my general experience with the process of loading metallic cartridges, that they are not suitable for firing anything more than standard pressure loads with pistol weight bullets.

If I offended you, I offer my sincere apologies.

JShirley
March 10, 2009, 11:04 PM
Ordinarily, administrative-type stuff is handled privately.

When you attempt to dress people down openly, though, perhaps an open rebuke is also called for. So: Jujub, thanks for your well-stated and succinct warning, which is not especially offensive (and thanks to GooseGestapo, as well). Anyone taking umbrage because they're insecure should simmer down quick, fast, and in a hurry.

In the future, I strongly suggest anyone "needing" to bicker with another poster to take it to PM.

John

Bigfoot
March 10, 2009, 11:43 PM
In the future, I strongly suggest anyone "needing" to bicker with another poster to take it to PM.

Done, no bickering though. :)

Well, at least nobody has suggested that I should get a 30-06 instead, yet. :)

I've found out that Taurus rates the Thunderbolt at 21,000 PSI which is warmer than SAAMI but not +P. So much for the .458 cal heavies. I'll order some 300s and possibly some 325-330s to try also.

Thanks again.

JShirley
March 11, 2009, 12:26 AM
I like slide-actions, myself, but have discounted the Thunderer because of the relatively weak action (when compared to other rifle types). I'm pretty fond of my Winchester, though. :)

John

1858
March 11, 2009, 12:48 AM
Bigfoot, I'm shooting a 250 grain OT LRNFP out of a 20" 1894 (.45 Colt) at 1460 fps and if I don't pull the rifle into my shoulder it gives quite a thump. The bullet makes one heck of a "thwack" as it hurtles downrange resulting in all sorts of questions from the EBR crowd. They don't even raise an eyebrow when I shoot the .300 Win Mag so I must be onto something. I know this doesn't help you with your original question but as for having lots of fun and plenty of stopping power .... 250 and 300 grain cast bullets are all that's required.

:)

JShirley
March 11, 2009, 12:55 AM
Yeah, I've got my 16" Winchester 1894 shooting the GA Arms 260-grain HP that's probably about the same ballistics. Not like a 12 GA slug, but not like a .223, either! :)

J

Wachtelhund
May 23, 2009, 08:16 PM
I've found out that Taurus rates the Thunderbolt at 21,000 PSI which is warmer than SAAMI but not +P. So much for the .458 cal heavies. I'll order some 300s and possibly some 325-330s to try also.

BF, Were did you get your PSI information on the Taurus Thunderbolt. I too, have one and would like to load 300 grain jacketed (.451) bullets to pressures above normal pistol loads, but not to dangerous levels. I called Taurus in FL and asked what PSI the rifle would handle safely, they couldn't tell me. I might try calling a different day of the week.

I have fired factory loads through it and it seemed like I was shooting .22 shorts.

I've look up load data using 300 gr jacket bullets and H110 powder, 17 to 20 grains, but none have listed PSI data.

I have have yet to try any reloads in the gun. I have shortened the barrel to 20", added a front fire sight and a rear peep sight.

subierex
May 23, 2009, 09:02 PM
As one who reloads 45LC for an 1892 clone, I've never seen load data approaching anywhere near a 400+ gr bullet. I've loaded "Ruger/TC" 250gr jacketed bullets for my gun, and they are unpleasant if I shoot more than five in a row.

Can't imagine a 405 grainer.

Bigfoot
May 26, 2009, 10:07 PM
Wachtelhund I wish I could remember where I found that. I searched for a couple of days and all that searching started to run together at some point. I do remember that Taurus told the poster that a certain factory load was safe in the Thunderbolt, not the hottest +P loads though.

Here are some load data links that I saved.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Some fast 300 gr loads. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/509116/page/1

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2974939

Sorry that I couldn't help more but my formerly great momory is long gone these days. :o

If Taurus answers please let us know.

Bigfoot

Maverick2
June 15, 2009, 09:10 PM
"Bear Tooth Bullets" in Idaho sells both a 405 grain 45 (.451/.452) and 44 Mag (.429/.430) bullets for revolvers and rifles. The action on the Thunderbolt is not a copy of the lightning as are the other pumps out there, but rather a beefed up version of their long successful .22 gallary pump design, which is said to be far stronger than the Lightning design.

Maverick223
June 15, 2009, 09:26 PM
Welcome to THR, name stealer. :neener: The thread is a little old though...but the OP may still be interested. :)

If you enjoyed reading about "45 Colt with 405 gr cast bullets, how fast?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!