[ballistic gelatin]

I went in to the local gun dealer this weekend for some 7.65 argentine ammo and this is what I found...

...the local dealer is retired and his gun shop is more a place for hanging out and smoking cigars than it is for buying guns. NEVER has anything new, mostly consignment. It turns out that recently an ATF Agent came in for a compliance check and gave him a hard time about dealing as a hobby and not for profit. The Agent said couldn't see how it was worth all the trouble. Then when the Agent is going through the yellow papers, he see's that some of the information is missing, like which county the buyer lived in and he of course raised his hand and said "this is a violation". Well, I suppose the old cigar smoking retiree said "screw you. You can take all those dang papers and that license over there too if you're gonna' be a jerk about it." So the Agent did. No more license, no more yellow papers. The former dealer is now trying to get his license back and is swimming in all sorts of red tape and fees. He says the license should be returned withing a week or two.

It sounds pretty foolish to me. BUT what really aggravates me is that my name is in that stack of yellow papers.

[cslinger]

I am usually a very friendly person unless your torque me off then I am not. If I were said ATF agent and said dealer gave me a bunch of crap and actually said just take my license etc.....I probably would have too out of spite.

Now I am not saying it is right for said dealer to have to be going through this in the first place. All I am making an observation of is the sociological aspect of the what aledgedly happened.

The system might suck but learning to work within it is a skill we need to all have. Because no matter what happens there will always be some kind of "SYSTEM" we will have to deal with.

Chris

[cslinger]

Forgot to mention. Whether or not BATFBICIALOCALLEOECHELONKGB or whomever gets a copy of your forms or not they can still track you down should they ever want to. The only way they couldn't track you down is if you had never bought a gun on paper and never purchased a firearm or firearm related stuff with a credit card.

Basically if they want to find you they will. No conspiracy theory, no tin foil, as I am not saying they are out to get "YOU" I am just saying that if they decide to get "YOU" it might take a lot of man hours but they will find you.

So have a cup of coffee brewing for them and a tear in your eye about all those poor guns you lost at sea. Sniff, horrible I tell you. A blessed event that you even survived. But that safe went the bottom like the Titanic. :D

[Kamicosmos]

CSlinger said:

Because no matter what happens there will always be some kind of "SYSTEM" we will have to deal with.

Well said. That very wise statement applies to life in general.

[Justin]

It's a bad idea to bite the hand that holds your leash.

[TallPine]

So ... if he is no longer a dealer, doesn't that mean he can sell off his "collection" (formerly inventory) without yellow papers and all that ...?

[Keith]

Hey, maybe it's all those years in the military coming back, but you have to fill out the damned form correctly.
If you don't, somebody is going to urinate in your corn flakes about it!

If there's a space for county, put the name of the county in. If it says "MI" just put the middle initial instead of the whole name. If there is a space for four digits under year, put in 2003 instead of 03. If it says use black ink, use black ink...

I know it's pointless and you know it's pointless and even the bureaucrat knows it's pointless - but his job depends upon finding pointless mistakes in those damned forms, so why give him a reason to make your life miserable? It's his job and he needs to make your life miserable to justify his existence.

Support Your Local Bureaucat - Screw Up The Damned Forms!

Keith

[Zundfolge]

So ... if he is no longer a dealer, doesn't that mean he can sell off his "collection" (formerly inventory) without yellow papers and all that ...?
I don't know about that, but I do know that if he's no longer in business, another friendly BATF agent will show up and box all those yellow pieces of paper up and take them (when you close down your FFL the BATF gets all your paperwork).

Thats why I wouldn't be too happy if my name (and SN of one of my guns) was on one of those little yellow pieces of paper.

[BlkHawk73]

I'd do the same thing the agent did given the same situation. He's got a license and must abide by the laws just as everyone else does. Isn't it kinda like being pissed at the cop for giving you a speeding ticket? You were speeding so don't you deserve the ticket?:rolleyes:


They got a yellow form w/ your name on it...:what: Always get a kick over how people worry about this. They know your info from when you bought the firearm.

[ballistic gelatin]

The Agent did take the yellow papers. As far as worrying about my name on yellow papers, I always knew they would get it and have it and what not. It's just that now it has crystalized and there's NO ESCAPE!!! AAAAaaaarrrrgggghhhhh.....

The dealer still had a small collection of used rifles in the back room, presumably on consignment. One that caught my eye was a M1 Carbine. I guess now is a great time to make an offer, while he's still disgruntled at the Agent.

[Keith]

The only thing worse than a disgruntled gun dealer is a gruntled gun dealer...

Keith

[Bill Hook]

Perhaps splitting your purchases among dealers is a good policy, if you don't want a single compliance check to net every purchase you've ever made.

[Standing Wolf]

BUT what really aggravates me is that my name is in that stack of yellow papers.

Annoying, yes, but your name, like mine, is already in lots of computer data bases, along with makes, models, serial numbers, barrel lengths, finishes, calibers, et cetera.

[hammer4nc]

Those with ffl's, kindly explain this apparent inconsistency:

1. ATF recently busted several people in a East St. Louis gunshow, for selling weapons. they claimed they were "collectors", which, according to the law, can sell guns without a license. Link: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/46896727C8B5E15C86256DB20014DED7?OpenDocument&Headline=Nine+area+men+are+indicted+after+inquiry+into+gun+shows+++

2. Now in this second example, someone with a legal ffl, and an existing storefront business, is getting grief, because his overall sales doesn't meet some undefined profit level? Would the ATF prefer that he give up his license, and be reclassified as a "collector"? So the next ATF agent can bust him for selling without a license?

Who's whipsawing who? Sorry, I can't excuse this kind of harassment over an improperly filled out form. For those who are comfortable with this kind of enforcement attitude, imagine any other regulatory agency getting so worked up over something like abbreviated or missing "county" on the fille-out form. Any mature adult would just use a brain cell and know what county was involved. BATF genuinely earns their crappy reputation.

[Sven]

Heard the same story, but the person I talked to bit his lip and was polite. He needs to be to feed himself.

[willyjixx]

not all states allow private party transactions. some states to do a private party it has to be done through an FFL. an all the p-work filled out.

[HABU]

the old cigar smoking retiree said "screw you.

He better look out cuz he may get a flash bang in the middle of the night and have a bunch of ninjas shoot him in his bed.:what: http://www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif

[oldfart]

There used to be a gunshop a few blocks from where I live. The owner was a cantankerous old b@$**** and I never did much business with him. Eventually, he died and the next thing I knew, there was a bunch of people cleaning out his shelves. Most of the stuff was simply sent back to the distributors but some of it was sold at auction.

When all the good stuff was finally gone they pulled up a drop-box and started tossing the junk into it. I walked by it and noticed thousands of yellow 4473's carefully bound together and headed for the incinerator. I just bit my lip and kept walking.

Evidently, the new proprietors didn't know that they were supposed to turn them over to the gubbmint. Oh well...

[.45FMJoe]

hey ballistic gelatin, you live in the Tampa area?

Might you be talking about Sonny's?

Just curious. He's semi-retired and is now retiring for good.

[Travis McGee]

Just fall on the floor and give their jack-boots a good spit shine with your lips and tongue, they they'll let you stay in business a while longer.

I'm amazed by some of the boot lickers here. There's a boot on your neck while exercising your rights, and the suggestion of many is to compliment them on their nice rubber soles.

Sheesh. Some of you guys will run to turn in your guns when they're banned, category by category. Probably turn in your old pals for rewards, too. "But it's the law!" you'll say. "Ve must follow zee law! Ve must!"

[BluesBear]

I'm amazed by some of the boot lickers here. There's a boot on your neck while exercising your rights, and the suggestion of many is to compliment them on their nice rubber soles.

Oh yeah, the THR rules of conduct say I can't insult someone so I'd better not comment on that rude and insulting remark.


I had an FFL for 8 years. I also worked a total of 10 years for other businesses that had FFLs. When you get the license they tell you all of the rules. You get the license because you paid your money and agreed to play by those rules. Right or wrong you agree to it. you get to keep tyhat license by playing by the rules and paying the fee. That's just the way life is.

My first inspection was perfect. The guy was there for 2 hours but he said he was impressed by the fact that every I was dotted and every T crossed. The agent was very nice and even commented on the bound books I had. He even wrote down the name of the supplier and started recomending then to other dealers who were having a bit of difficulty understanding the rules. The second time (5 years later) was a different agent but he remarked that since my first review was so good he wasn't worried. That inspection took about 15 minutes.

The next place I worked (a pawn shop) was inspected by a different agent. This inspection took 6 hours because the previous owner had made a LOT of mistakes. However, this didn't count against the new owner. Two years later we were reviewed again by the agent who had first reviewed me. He remarked to the owner that it was good to see me again. He even noticed that we were by then using the same books as I had years before. This inspection took about 2 hours because it was a LARGE shop with a LOT of guns in pawn. Again not a single violation.

The last time I worked at a shop that was inspected I was working at another pawn shop. The diference was at this shop the owner was a first class a-hole. Luckily my dapartment was musical Instruments & Cameras. I rarely touched a gun there and had never sold one while working there.
The inspection there lasted TWO DAYS. He lost his license conditionally for 90 days, paid a LOT of fines and was/is inspected every three months. Yeppers it was the first agent again. He asked me before he left if I had ever said anything to the owner about how he did things. I told him "Yes, but was told to mind my own business." He remarked, "I bet he wishes he'd listened to you now."

If you want to play the game you have to play by the rules.


Just my tuppence.


Your views might be different. If so, you can lick my . . . . . . .

[ballistic gelatin]

you be talking about Sonny's?Negative.

I wonder if this would be a good time to "volunteer" my time to help out with paperwork at the retiree's gun shop...in exchange for goods and services at cost?

[Felonious Monk]

Travis McGee--
Just fall on the floor and give their jack-boots a good spit shine with your lips and tongue, they they'll let you stay in business a while longer.

I'm amazed by some of the boot lickers here. There's a boot on your neck while exercising your rights, and the suggestion of many is to compliment them on their nice rubber soles. Sheesh.

Some of you guys will run to turn in your guns when they're banned, category by category. Probably turn in your old pals for rewards, too. "But it's the law!" you'll say. "Ve must follow zee law! Ve must!"

Dude, these are awfully harsh words to the folks involved in this thread...many of whom have forgotten more about firearms and the business thereof than you and I may ever know, and who (I am sure) fight the good fight keeping our 2nd Am rights everyday alongside us.

I hope this was just a low blood sugar moment for you or something. :scrutiny:

[Double Naught Spy]

Some of you are amazing. Why it is that you think the ATF is 'harassing' FFL dealers over not having proper paperwork or not having it filled out properly is hugely naive on your part. The AFT is NOT hassling these folks and the ATF doesn't need to be cutting them slack in regard to not being fully in compliance. What you are failing to understand is that the the FFL holder agreed to abide by all the rules and regulations of the ATF in order to get an FFL, and that includes having all the paperwork filled out properly.

As noted by several here, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to be in compliance. It does take a little time and a little work, but there is no reason why it can't be done properly.

[Keith]

There really ISN'T a lot of paperwork involved! You log a gun in and you log a gun out. This is done in a book with a number of columns; date in, date out, make, model, serial number, wholesaler, etc, - 30 seconds of work.
You make sure the customer fills in all the blocks on the 4473 and does so correctly. Log the NIC's response on the form. Another 30 seconds of work.

You keep this stuff on file, usually by date. That's it!

That's all you have to do to keep the tax agents happy - and that's all the ATF is; a tax agency! And ATF agents aren't any worse than any other bureaucrat when it comes to paperwork like this. If you doubt that, fill out your other tax forms incorrectly, throw out your receipts, tell the IRS they suck when they call, give them crap at the audit...

What you have to remember is that they are ALL bureaucrats! If they don't find any problems they have no reason to exist. They don't get a recommendation for advancement, and neither does their branch chief. And the department as a whole needs this garbage to get funding from Congress.

This is what bureaucracies do. It's how they flourish and grow. It's the nature of the beast! They love it when you give them a hard time! They love it when you don't do the paperwork.

If you don't like the ATF, don't feed them. Fill out the damned forms and file them in an orderly manner. Smile and offer them coffee when they arrive. Don't give them a reason to justify their empty jobs and useless lives.

Keith

[rock jock]

It's a bad idea to bite the hand that holds your leash.
I don't see what your personal life has to do with this thread.:D

[ballistic gelatin]

offer them coffee when they arriveand donuts...then offer them a box of ammo and the latest model pistol to take for a test drive on the indoor firing range. A wise man once said, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

[Keith]

offer them a box of ammo and the latest model pistol to take for a test drive on the indoor firing range.

No way! Giving a bureaucrat a gun is an invitation to an accident!

Keith

[trooper]

Gee, I'm glad that most of you seem to be rather sensible about this issue. Especially since I've just finished "Unintended Consequences" :)


Trooper

[citizen]

I feel compelled to respond here; you've touched on an undeveloped fantasy of mine.

I WANT a job at Bureaucracy, Inc.

Employment security, liberal benefits, short-houred day job, etc. Maybe even an incredibly strong union. Oh, yeah; EXCELLENT compensation, too.
Doesn't HAVE to be in gov.; just seems that's where the best of 'em are.
Do I have to "know" somebody on the "inside"????? Seriously; my dream.

[tyme]

Some of you are amazing. Why it is that you think the ATF is 'harassing' FFL dealers over not having proper paperwork or not having it filled out properly is hugely naive on your part. The AFT is NOT hassling these folks and the ATF doesn't need to be cutting them slack in regard to not being fully in compliance. What you are failing to understand is that the the FFL holder agreed to abide by all the rules and regulations of the ATF in order to get an FFL, and that includes having all the paperwork filled out properly.
At this point I think it'd be good if someone cited whatever case it was about a grain license or some such thing where the court concluded that had the person/entity obtained the necessary license, they would not have given up any of their rights if it turned out the license was unconstitutional/illegal/whatever. I'm tired and I don't recall enough about the case to find it easily.

[Brad Johnson]

A few months back I was picking up some ammo in a local shop when I noticed they were in the middle of a compliance audit. One of the ATF agents pointed out that several of the forms did no have USA as the country of residence, even though the address on the form was clearly legible (I guess Texas is not in the USA unless you specifically say so).

The agent was polite about it, even to the point of agreeing that it was about the silliest thing he had to deal with, but said that it still had to be corrected.

Ain't bureaucracy grand.

Brad

[BluesBear]

Form 4473 Part I doesn't mention Country of Residence it asks for the Country of Citizenship.