[Gambit88]

now that my revolver is back together and rotating like it should, How can I examine it to make sure it is safe to shoot. I asked on yahoo answers like a moron and got responces like try it in your basement/shoot at your dog/ turn yourself in your a danger to soicety. Would I just want to make sure everything lines up? I assume its safe as there was powder residue in the barrel and cyllander but I wanna be sure before I goto the range.

Gambit

[Hungry Seagull]

A-Zoom has what is called snap caps. You can get one for your exact caliber and weapon and practice, check gun function according to your manual etc. You can load, unload, dry fire and do things with those snap caps all day and not hurt anything.

There is also a second issue you presented with your post here. A dirty gun.

Go get a basic gun cleaning kit and work on your gun to get it clean (And dry) before you go shoot it.

I use a bag of genuine cotton patches, big nice thick patches. Bore cleaner, rem oil, bronze or brass bore brushes with a rod and handle to run em and a gun cleaning pad to catch the spills.

Also clean your gun somewhere AWAY from your kitchen, bedroom and common areas. Lead is a problem and wash hands when finished.

Allow the gun to dry at least a day before shooting just to be safe.

If something is wrong with the gun and you dont know if it is safe, take it to the RO or Gunsmith and ask for advice. There is nothing wrong whatsoever for asking questions from others. Especially if you are most need of understanding if your weapon is ready to go shoot.

I should write how I usually clean my weapons but will leave it here for now.

One other thing, dont do anything that Yahoo idiots told you to. Firing in a basement is really bad idea. Really bad idea.

[Gambit88]

This is cap and ball so I cant exactly go get snap caps, though I do own some for my shotgun. Anyways I did clean it and all that jazz but the Idea of black powder shooting kind of scares me a bit. With my crappy luck itll chainfire first shot and Ill loose a hand. Maybe try one cylander at a time to make sure they all line up?

[Hungry Seagull]

Oh Black powder on a revolver I presume?

Oh boy, you are asking me to clear the cobwebs on those from my mind. Do you have a rod under your revolver barrel for loading said gun by piston or do you have to break the revolver open and get into it from the hammer end?

Let's see. No percussion cap on the revolver cylinder (Mentally kicking myself for being a old fart who has forgotten most basic stuff...) means no gun fire.

Oh boy. Let's see.. Oh yes.. You check all of the cylinders to be sure that they are all empty and then eyeball each one from the side of your weapon. There should be a tiny space between cylinder and bore of pistol. If everything lines up you should not see any error in the way the cylinders line up.

A clean revolver with notches on the back of the cylinder itself should rotate precisely into line with the bore every time.

[Gambit88]

It has a loading rod. Its cap and ball if that helps. Says on barrel that it is a navy model but its brass frame .44 so probably more like an army. I might just take it to the range and have the guys there look at it.

Gambit

[Hungry Seagull]

Ok Im with you now.

The only thing I cannot tell you is about loading the weapon. We used to pour a measure down, fist the paper into a wad, tamp that in and follow it with the ball.

Once the cap is in place on that cylinder she should be ready to go.

But before you do all of that, you might consider something like a very small pipe cleaner, the kind that was used to clean tobacco pipes. And check each percussion cap nipple so that the path to the individual cylinder is clear and clean.

If you fire and she does not discharge, hold fire for at least one minute and keep that misfired weapon pointed down range.

Apologies in advance for basic wording and things you probably are aware of first. But Im being overly cautions here because safety first is a rule in my home anyhow... (Sarcastic laughter towards Invaders and Bad Guys)

[Ginormous]

How can I examine it to make sure it is safe to shoot

Gambit88 -

If you are the least bit uncertain about the revolver's safety (and it sounds as if you are), a good once over by a gunsmith is in order. Why risk damaging yourself or the pistol when you can be certain?

[Gambit88]

How much does a gunsmith generally charge for a check like that. I try not to goto gander mtn anymore but thats the only gunsmith around I know of and i think they charge 60 bucks to look at things

[DoubleDeuce 1]

Gambit, determine the caliber of the revolver. Go to a store that sells gunsmithing equipment and get yourself a ranging rod..... not a range rod. They are two different things. The ranging rod screws onto a rod to slip down the barrel. If the chamber is rotated around to lock up with the barrel, the rod will go down into the chamber. If the timing and lock up are off, the rod will stop at the mouth of the chamber. Its really simple.
If you don't have a place to get a ranging rod, make one from a hard wood dowel. That might be a little more difficult unless you find one close to the bore diameter, but it can be used to do the same thing, just not as acurate.

[Gambit88]

Well I went to gunsmiths.com and searched for smiths in my area. My range and gander mountian came up, so Im gonna take it to the guys at my range.

[Hungry Seagull]

Take the thing to the Smith at Gander. Pay the 60 dollars and have it done right. Please dont let impatience or other motivation rush you into a weapon to use on the range that is iffy.

I just got several weapons back from a smith (A good one) myself. I dont mind paying a few dollars now and again to put food on his table. Especially when the weapons come back virgin fresh as they say.

[Ginormous]

so Im gonna take it to the guys at my range

Good show! Shooting is much more fun when done safely. I'd be willing to bet if you are a regular at this range, they proprietors will check it over very reasonably, if not free.

Remember, getting hurt sucks - safe before sorry!

[Gambit88]

Probably free. When I baught my mosin they were gonna do a headspace check for me but didnt have the right gauge set so they told me to fire the first few rounds from the hip that way if the bolt blows off itll hit the wall. I did that dowel test. I marked the dowel where it should sit if all the way to the nipple and it cleared all 6 cylanders, though three were really easy to go and 3 were kinda tight so I dont know what that means.

[Ginormous]

When I baught my mosin they were gonna do a headspace check for me but didnt have the right gauge set so they told me to fire the first few rounds from the hip that way if the bolt blows off itll hit the wall.

:eek:. . . . . . .:what:

Boy, you Michiganers are a tough lot. :) I'd have waited for the right tool for the round to arrive, or at the very least, mounted the rifle in a rest at the range and fired it from behind a safety shield or wall of some sort.

[highorder]

Where in Michigan are you?

I might be able to help you, or at least refer you to someone that can.

[Gambit88]

Highorder depending on the day im usially in the downriver area(trenton southgate wyandotte etc) or Brighton. Im trying to avoid goin to gander if I can avoid it because they refuse to sell me anything black powder because it is a "reloading device"...

[rcmodel]

What did you do to it that makes you think it isn't safe to shoot?

Anyway, if the cylinder locks in place with the hammer back, and stays locked in place when you lower the hammer, it is safe to shoot.

It's a cap & ball revolver for crise sakes.

They have sold a gazillion of them in kit form that the village idiot could put together and fire safely.

Civil war solders took them apart with a pocket knife and cleaned them with a tree branch.

It ain't rocket science, black-powder ain't rocket fuel, and black powder revolvers ain't rockets!

Go shoot it.

rc

[Gambit88]

I probably will sometime soon. The guy at the range told me he wouldnt shoot it because the hammer could be dropped at half cock and the cylander had a bit of backwards play. He said it was probably safe but wont be too accurate. The guy however thought half cock was full cock and had trouble removing the barrel so I shoulda talked to the owner

[Hungry Seagull]

My word.

I guess it's no different than battlefield accounts where soldiers died with thier weapons chock full of rammers or had 8 balls loaded or other similar stress related failures.

[Gambit88]

as far as the mosin went ginormous, All the numbers matched so we had a good idea that it was most likely safe to shoot

[rcmodel]

he wouldnt shoot it because the hammer could be dropped at half cockO.K>
If the hammer will fall when you pull the trigger when it is on the safety or half-cock loading notch, YOU DO have a problem that makes it unsafe.

I think you better take it to a gunsmith and have it checked & fixed properly.

rc

[RSVP2RIP]

We should clarify the difference between gunsmiths and gunshops that offer "Gunsmithing Service". I have a Colt Diamondback with a worn hand. I took it to the local shop and they looked at it. They said it was fine as their "gunsmith" shot it a couple of times and the firing pin "dents" were in the center of the primer..........Whhhhhhaaaaaat???? That lesson cost me $45.

[Gambit88]

O.K>
If the hammer will fall when you pull the trigger when it is on the safety or half-cock loading notch, YOU DO have a problem that makes it unsafe.

I think you better take it to a gunsmith and have it checked & fixed properly.

rc

Does this mean I need to order a new hammer? At that rate I might as well get the Repair kit from cabelas.

Gambit

[rcmodel]

Yes. It certainly sounds like either the hammer notches or the trigger itself are broke.

Possibly both by now, if the trigger sear edge was scraping over a broken hammer notch.

I would certainly suggest you replace them both.

rc

[mykeal]

Whoa.

This thread is getting a little out of hand. Guys telling you to buy snap caps and new hammers and people who don't know half cock from full cock and diagnosing 'a bit of backward play' saying it isn't safe to shoot. Wow.

From your description the 'guy at the range' either doesn't know anything about single action bp revolvers or you misunderstood him. Let's take a minute and see if we can figure this out.

First of all, put the hammer in full cock. Check the cylinder for end (fore and aft) play and rotational play; there should be no rotational play and little to no end play. Place a piece of leather or a thick piece of cloth (denim, canvas, etc.) over the nipple and attempt to push the hammer forward; it should stay in full cock no matter how hard you push it forward. The trigger should also be locked up with no free play. Pull the trigger and allow it to fall on the covered nipple; the trigger should break cleanly and the hammer fall quickly and firmly. Now put the hammer in half cock and once again attempt to force it forward with your hand; again, it should not move. The cylinder should rotate in a clockwise direction from battery to battery; you should not be able to turn it counterclockwise when in battery, but it can be turned counterclockwise in between battery positions. With the hammer still in half cock the trigger should again be locked in place with no free play. Attempt to pull the trigger; it should not break even when pulled with considerable force. If it does not break, pull it back to full cock, remove the leather/cloth, place your thumb on the top of the hammer, pull the trigger slowly to release the hammer and carefully lower it to the down position. If all those tests occur as described and based on your description of the dowel test results the gun is safe to shoot.

[RSVP2RIP]

+1 on Mykeal's function test.

[HB]

when I baught my mosin they were gonna do a headspace check for me but didnt have the right gauge set so they told me to fire the first few rounds from the hip that way if the bolt blows off itll hit the wall
Make some new friends.... seriously, its one thing to take their word on it, but for them to tell you that :confused:

As for the revolver, go to the revolver forum, go to the revolver check-out sticky, and do the check. If it passes, your good to go (as long as you know how to safely load and fire it). If it doesn't, take it to a smith and have him replace the necessary parts and get the timing in check.

HB

[Gambit88]

Ok mykeal. Yes at half if I pull the trigger the hammer falls. It doesnt fall if I push on it though. The cylander does move back a bit so the guy thought maybe it was the wrong one. Anyways by the sounds of what you said, its starting to seem like a good idea to just replace all the internal parts with the cabelas kit or somethin and go from there. At least if theyre all the same parts then I shouldnt have to do too much fitting.

[PT1911]

you wanna buy a wooden shelf, a vice, safety glasses, and a LONG piece of string.....:D

[RSVP2RIP]

As to replacing the internals, you may find that "the same parts" require alot of fitting. Unless you are wanting to invest a lot of time and effort, or want to try this from a hobby standpoint, you might want to invest in a new gun which might only cost about $200-300.

[mykeal]

Did the hammer fall forward from full cock when you tried to push it forward without pulling the trigger? How about the rest of the tests - how did it react to those?

Don't be in such a hurry to buy more parts. Let's diagnose the fault first.

[Bezoar]

posts like this make a monthly or bi monthly single action trouble shoot meeting sound like a good idea.

[Gambit88]

Ok mykeal I did your test and here are the results. no matter if the hammer is at half or full cock, it isnt going to move my be pushing on it. The trigger is nice and crisp when pulled, with no wiggle. The chambers line up, but there is a bit of sidways play. Very little and only when I move the cylander manually. A but of backwards play as well but that seems normal. The only part that failed was that the hammer will drop at half cock if the trigger is pulled.

[Ginormous]

The only part that failed was that the hammer will drop at half cock if the trigger is pulled.

I don't believe I'd be too interested in capping that revolver, with half-cock going off half-cocked :)

Others may (and likely will) disagree. I'd still repair it myself, or get it repaired by a proper gunsmith, before shooting it.

Most 'smith's charge between $40 and $65 an hour plus parts. That's cheap insurance in my opinion, particularly if you cherish your tender bits.

[Gambit88]

If I paid more then 60 bucks for the whole shebang then Id gladly take it to a smith. Taking it to a smith however, would probably cost me more then buying one new from dixie or cabelas. Most likely Its something simple like a bad fitting between the hammer and rigger as it was a kit. My dads neighbor went to the show with me when I baught this thing and convinced me to get it to learn some basic gunsmithing. He wont really help as he wants me to learn on my own but if its something Ive never attempted before Its hard to learn without a teacher.


EDIT:
My uncle has many repro black powder revolvers and I believe all his do the same thing. I dunno though....
Gambit

[rcmodel]

This is not a C&B SA, but your hammer & trigger are similar.

Look at your hammer and see if the safety & half-cock notch's are shaped like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colt_SAA_Moving_Parts.JPG

Then look at your trigger sear tip and see if it is shaped like this one.

The trigger sear tip must be slim enough to fit up inside the hammer hooks on the two safety notches.

Lay the parts down on a table in close relation to the way they would be in the gun.
See if the trigger will go all the way up in the notches.
If it won't, it needs to be slimmed down enough that it will.

rc

[Gambit88]

Damn actually I was looking at this earlier. The trigger sits under the bottom notch perfectly but it was too thick to sit under the top notch. Im not sure which is full and half cock notchwise, but now Ill file down the trigger sear a bit so it will slide in the top notch.

[mykeal]

Nope. Don't file down the trigger sear. You need it to be the right size for the full cock position. Filing it down may result in a 'hair', or very light, trigger, which is even more unsafe than a hammer that won't stay in half cock.

The reason for asking you to do all those checks was to determine where the fault lies. The fact that the trigger and hammer function correctly in full cock but not in half cock says the fault lies not with the trigger sear but with the half cock notch - the one closest to the hammer face. If the sear was damaged then you would have had a problem with both notches.

The half cock notch needs to fully capture the sear and not allow it to slip out if the trigger is pulled. I believe there either is residue of some sort in the half cock notch preventing the sear from fully engaging or the lip of the notch has broken or worn off. If it were my gun I'd use a needle file to be sure the notch was completely clear of any burrs or debris and that the sear can fully fit within the notch. It may even be necessary to use the needle file to slightly enlarge the opening. Since this was a kit gun I think the most likely culprit is a burr on the edge of the notch at the entrance, something a needle file will easily remove. It's possible there is also a burr on the end of the trigger sear; you can feel that by running your finger across the sear. There's no problem with filing the burrs away, just go slowly and check your work often. Your fingers are the best instrument you have for finding metal burrs, so use them often.

[Gambit88]

I probably need a new hammer by the sounds of things. The top notch had a lip that I had to widen a bit to fit the sear in, and the bottom had no lip at all that i noticed, but Ill look again as maybe there is a bit of crud blocking something up.

[rcmodel]

I wasn't suggesting that he file on the sear edge and making a hair trigger out of it.

But replacement triggers are sometimes too thick to fit in the standard size hammer notches and need to be thinned a little on the back edge to allow them to seat fully against the hammer notch.

Filing on a trigger and messing it up is much cheaper then filing on a hammer and messing it up.

rc

[Gambit88]

Thats what im workin on now but my files are cheap harbor freight files and not doing to much so I Went on a quest in the basement and found some mac tool needle files. Im I widened the space out in the notch but i wont wanna risk doing that much more as its starting to wear the notch. the trigger doesnt need very much work other then that.

[scrat]

good job mykeal.

[Gambit88]

Ok one last question and I think this thing will finally be finished. At half cock the trigger locks now, but only if I push forward a bit on the back of the trigger when pulling the hammer back. Could that little spring inside going bad?

[rcmodel]

Could be the spring.

Could be the trigger shape where the spring pushes it back against the hammer.

Put it together except for the grip frame and look inside there.
You should be able to easily see what is wrong.

rc

[mykeal]

You can't see the sear engagement with the half cock notch with or without the grip frame installed.

It sounds like you're very close - I think there are two possibilities here.

One, perhaps the mainspring is too weak; it should apply the force that you're having to provide with your hand to push the trigger sear into the notch. One way to check/correct this is to put a small piece of wood between the grip frame and the mainspring near the base of the spring. This gives the spring an effectively shorter fulcrum length and makes it 'stiffer'. It should be noticeably harder to pull the hammer back to full cock. See if that provides the necessary force. If so, leave the wedge in place or buy a new mainspring.

Second, maybe there's a little bit of obstruction still preventing the trigger sear from fully engaging the notch. Pushing the trigger forward gives it the little extra nudge it needs to get over the hump. This could mean there's a very subtle problem with the shape of the trigger sear vs the notch. This will now get very tedious. Use your finest grit needle file, or some emery paper (better yet, a sharpening stone if you have one) to carefully polish the tip of the leading edge of the sear. Give it a dozen strokes with light pressure, then reassemble the gun and try again. Be very careful not to overdo this, as this area is the one that, if too much is taken off, will lighten up the trigger pull to an unacceptable level.

[scrat]

good job again mykeal. go with what he says.

[Gambit88]

Ok Ill try that. Ive actually been filing the groove in the hammer to make the lip a bit deaper so it wouldnt slip as easially. Ill post back in a bit if that doesnt help, but the gun seems so close to being complete that I can almost smell the burnt powder.

Gambit

[mykeal]

Actually, rcmodel has a good point - it could also be the trigger/bolt spring. It's purpose is to return the trigger to the forward position to ready it for the next round. It does help push the sear into the notches in that regard, but it's quite a bit weaker than the mainspring so it's hard to see that it would make a difference if the mainspring were at full strength.

[Gambit88]

Ok now the trigger locks at half cock, But when I put the wedge in the barrel the cylander nolonger spins nor does the hammer go into full cock. sometimes it jams and wont even go into half cock, almost like the cylander is putting too much pressure on the hand.:banghead: -sigh- Fix one thing break another I suppose

[messerist]

Amen!:)

[mykeal]

I assume the cylinder rotates ok with the barrel in place until the wedge is inserted; my initial thought is that the wedge is in too far. If you can back it out a bit and free up the cylinder, but still have the wedge tight enough to stay in place, that's the best solution. There should be a clearance between the front of the cylinder and the forcing cone on the back of the barrel of between 0.004" and 0.010" with the wedge in place; it does not have to be all the way through the gun, it only has to be tight enough to stay in place.

If that can't be done then it suggests the slot in the arbor has been stretched. This can be fixed by shimming the wedge or the slot. A permanent solution would require welding material in the slot or replacing the arbor, both of which are jobs for a gunsmith.

[Gambit88]

Ok I can tinker with that. Is the arbor the shaft the cylinder sits on? I ask because when the barrel is on it almost looks like it needs to be pulled forward a bit. I took it to a guy my friend works with at a machine shop and he believes the cylinder is bad, as when I got it someone had slammed the hammer on the cylinder between all the batteries, so he thinks that is catching somethin

[Gambit88]

Ok after more tinkering Ive come to believe that the bolt/cam isnt moving up and down all the time as it should. I found if the hammer jams up, then I can push down and forward on the cylander and thatll loosen it up and get the cylinder moving again

[sltm1]

Cylinder jam and hammer won't cock, another solution. Sounds like Mykeal put his finger on the problem with the wedge to arbor to bbl fit. If you don't want to fuss with the arbor and wedge, take the cylinder and with emory paper, (220 grit or higher), on a firm flat surface, rub the face of the cylinder in slow figure eight's. This will remove the face evenly. In very little time you will have removed a 1000th or two which should solve the problem. Go slowly, check often and if you have a feeler guage handy, use it to check your gap.

[Gambit88]

Ok Ill do that do. It is safe I learned today at the range and will be posting a range report later after I put the gun back together and take pictures of the target

[mykeal]

Yes, the arbor is the large pin the cylinder rotates on. It's also called a cylinder pin or base pin.

If pushing the cylinder forward clears the jam then you don't have a problem with the wedge. In my previous post I understood that the gun wouldn't jam with the wedge out, but did jam when it was installed - that's why I said:
I assume the cylinder rotates ok with the barrel in place until the wedge is inserted
The most common cause of a jammed cylinder, especially when it's only with the wedge installed, is a wedge that's in too far - it pushes the barrel forcing cone against the front face of the cylinder, binding it up so it can't turn. But if you can get the cylinder to turn by pushing it forward, that's clearly not the cause in this case. Milling the front of the cylinder is thus not necessary.

If the bolt is failling to drop and release the cylinder you may be able to see that by shining a strong light on one side and looking at the gap between the bottom of the cylinder and the frame from the other side; you can't see the bolt but if it's still up in the cylinder notch you should be able to see it's shadow. Try it with the hammer either down or in full cock and then in half cock to see the difference. Then, when it jams, you can use the light to see if the bolt is what's stopping it from turning.

If it's the bolt then the trigger/bolt spring may need to be replaced or the leg that rests on the bolt may need to be bent or straightened out.

The next time it jams remove the trigger guard and observe what happens when you push the cylinder forward; see if you can tell what happens to clear the jam when you do that.

[sltm1]

Mykeal, I just bought a brasser 51' with a new cylinder at a pawn shop with the problem (I'm embarassed to tell you the price I paid), we've been discussing. At first, cause the hammer stuck I though it might be a spent cap in the works. Got it home, pulled it apart (dirty but no copper), put it back together and fiddled with the wedge placement to try to recreate the problem. Milling the front allows the wedge to be fully in place now. I figger, why'd they put a locking spring on something they didn't want to lock in place? Seems like relieving the cylinder to cone binding was a fix that was a proper and period correct fix.

[mtn hunter]

Gambit88, there is a small adjustment screw front of hand grip. With hammer released ( down on cylinder) turn screw clockwise 1/2 turn to start.Now cock
it back watching the nipple alighnment under hammer.Should be center. Next, cylinder should be locked,and can't rotate. Your loading lever can be used to check for alignment also at this time.Sometimes the spring gets out of adjustment do to total disasembly, just dont put too much tension against the hammer bearing.

[mykeal]

mtn hunter - Gambit88's revolver is a Colt; they don't have that adjustment screw.

[Gambit88]

Mykeal, I should have said when the cylinder sticks, It only sticks on two batteries and I believe its the same two, thats why I believed the bolt wasnt moving right. Might I just have to do some filework on the two batteries that stick, or is it something else. It shoots safe now I know this is purely nitpicking so I dont have to bring it home and remove loads when it sticks up bad, or tear it appart at a reinactment.