[Sagetown]

Since the passing of California's July of 08 's laws about shipping firearms, I can't determine if they relate to Black Powder arms.
My question is - - Can an individual ship BP guns from CA to an individual in another State?
Thanks
Sage

[scrat]

As far as i know you can still ship into and out of california on black powder arms. In fact i purchased a black powder arms a few weeks ago and it was shipped to california from back east to my home address

[Sagetown]

Posted by scrat: i purchased a black powder arms a few weeks ago and it was shipped to california from back east to my home address

Hey scrat; Was that from an FFL Dealer? I pretty much figured out FFL's can ship to and fro to individuals, but want to make sure about non-FFL shipping between one another. That's where I'm puzzled.

[scrat]

Nope a FFL is not needed with a black powder purchase. Now some companies are pretty persistant on making the transaction through a FFL dealer. However it is not legally required. I purchased my 1858 from Cabelas and it was shipped straight to my door. All of my black powder arms were shipped straight to my door. As a black powder is considered a black powder Arms or Antique replica or original. IT is not a centerfire smokeless cartridge shooting firearm. Firearm is the key word. you have firearm and blackpowder arms. So it is still legal to purchase and ship black powder arms. The companies that try to make you go through a dealer. Well just dont purchase from them. Why should i spend 200 on a black powder arms then another 25-100 on transfer fees when its not required. They just loose my business. Cabelas, midway, dixie gun works. They get my business as they know the laws and so do i and we work together. They make a sale, make money and i get my items.

[pohill]

I've shipped BP revolvers several times in the past year from MA to CA, two of the worst anti-gun states. I only use UPS (the Post Office refused to ship them). But I'm pretty sure that UPS, in MA anyways, moved the date of the guns allowed from pre-1899 to pre-1879.

[scrat]

In fact now that you mention it they have always came ups. But you would have never known there was a gun in the box. As the boxes were big with nothing on them except shipping labels. Or a big cabelas box.

[Sagetown]

Thanks guys, but I can't convince my friend.
I've searched all over google about this, and even though Federal Law permits the individual to ship gun curios, California claim their laws supersede the Govt's., and CA's laws have no clear direction in this matter.

So the person from CA that want's to ship their BP guns w/o going thru a FFL dealer is going to sit on them. Says it'll take a lawyer to figure it out.

I know before July of 08, I bought a BP revolver thru EMF there in Santa Ana, and they shipped it right to my door, no questions asked, and like scrat said, it came in an ordinary box. But since then I've noted some businesses don't want to bother with shipping to CA residents. Sounds like a mess to me.

[scrat]

well cabelas sent me one 3 weeks ago

[jeffsenpai]

laws are no different in CA than anywhere else concerning black powder guns.

No Different. Buy, send, receive, sell, etc.

[looserings]

Here's the law concerning Black Powder firearms sales, transfers, etc. in California. The recent CFLC requirements are governed by Ca. Penal Code secs. 12070, 12071 and 12072. These same sections are governed by Ca. Penal Code sec. 12001 (a) (2) (e) which exempts "antique firearms" as described in Federal law 18 USC sec. 921 (a) (16). This federal law defines "antique firearms" as blackpowder rifles, shotguns or pistols (as long as they have not been modified to accept cartridge ammunition). Since this exemption applies to the California Penal Code as cited in CPC 12001 (a) (2) (e), laws governing firearms sales, transfers, etc. those restrictions do not apply to black powder firearms.

[sniper5]

Or your friend could call or write or email the California AG office and get a clarification.

[Sagetown]

Posted by: scrat ~ well cabelas sent me one 3 weeks ago
I agree, that should be a good enough sign.

Posted by: jeffsenpai ~ laws are no different in CA than anywhere else concerning black powder guns.

No Different. Buy, send, receive, sell, etc.
Thanks; I like that answer.

Posted by: looserings ~ Ca. Penal Code sec. 12001 (a) (2) (e) which exempts "antique firearms" as described in Federal law 18 USC sec. 921 (a) (16). ..................those restrictions do not apply to black powder firearms.
Thank you, looserings, for going into detail. I'll forward them you entire statement. That oughta build up some confidence.

Posted by: sniper5 ~ Or your friend could call or write or email the California AG office and get a clarification. Yep! I really appreciate all of your answers.

[Loyalist Dave]

So the person from CA that want's to ship their BP guns w/o going thru a FFL dealer is going to sit on them. Says it'll take a lawyer to figure it out.

But since then I've noted some businesses don't want to bother with shipping to CA residents. Sounds like a mess to me.

Nope the language of the law is plain, they are "antiques" as was previously pointed out, but GOOD LUCK with the AG's office, as you will find the vast majority of the lawyers there are 1) woefully ignorant about all firearms and 2) will give you quick and easy answer of "go through a dealer or go to jail".

Often gun companies won't ship to places like CA for a few reasons, 1) Don't want to deal with the hassle of an ignorant prosecutor who wants to make their name known when some kid gets caught with a cap-n-ball that came to him in the mail..,

2) Don't like the gun laws there, so won't ship to licensed dealers or even non-restricted guns in an effort to put pressure on all gun owners in the state to put pressure on the politicians. I have seen several gun sellers on Gunbroker who refused to ship anything to CA dealers.

LD

[BHP FAN]

California is the sixth largest economy in the world.Dealers and individuals that flatly state that ''they ain't sellin' nuttin to Commiefornia'' are simply not too savvy.

[scrat]

ok here is my problem on this. you want to ship your guns out of CA. Excuse me (antiques). is this a sale. BECAUSE if it is. you could probably keep them in california. Show us the goods we will take them off your hands for a fair price

[NavyLCDR]

Hey scrat; Was that from an FFL Dealer? I pretty much figured out FFL's can ship to and fro to individuals, but want to make sure about non-FFL shipping between one another. That's where I'm puzzled.

It is even MORE illegal for an FFL to SHIP firearms to private parties than it is for private parties to do so. The only exception is returning a repaired firearm or a replacement to the original owner. Obviously, the FFL requirements don't apply to BP.

[Sagetown]

Posted by: scrat ~ is this a sale?
No; it'll be a transfer. As I understand it, none of the immediate family living in CA are interested.

[looserings]

Just a few more thoughts on this subject. Most FFL gun dealers are afraid of loosing their license or even worse, going to prison over making a mistake in conducting their business so, as a result they are skiddish when it comes to shipping any type of firearm to California. Others feel that it is just too much of a hassle and therefore avoid California. That's too bad as I have pointed out to them that they are unfairly punishing California Black Powder customers AND loosing many potential sales. Next, somewhere on this website I saw a post where a member referred to the black powder (antique), firearm transaction exemption as a "loophole". I would advise against using the term "loophole" as that infers something illegal. This is no loophole . . . it is THE LAW. Lastly, when in doubt . . . look it up, spend some time reviewing current laws on the books and if you still aren't satisfied, ask questions. Now, go burn some powder!

[NavyLCDR]

Actually, a loophole is not something that is illegal. It is a mistake in a law that can be exploited to make an action legal that was actually meant, by the spirit of the law, to be illegal. As you have stated, however, black powder firearms sales without FFL's is not a loophole in the law, it is an exception specifically written into the law. There was no mistake about it. The same is true for private sales of firearms between same state residents (as far as Federal law is concerned), that is not a loophole either - that is just the Federal government recognizing the limits of it's legislative jurisdiction.

[Sagetown]

:) This stuff is so interesting I made a note of it in my BP folder for future reference.

[scrat]

Well its important. thats why i am buying so much. i have my eye on a kentucky flintlock. who knows a year, two or five years from now that law might change. of course everyone that already has them would have to be grandfathered. I can see the prices rising through the roof. So for me its getting to our heritage and having the chance to own a piece of it.