[Lightsped]

What keeps a gun dealer from selling a gun to you without having to do the registration? Like if the dealer was selling a gun to you on his own time at home.

[illuminatus99]

I suppose as long as it's in his personal collection and not inventory it should be fine. might want to look up the laws though.

[CMcDermott]

The BATFE does do random checks on manufacturers, distributors and dealers. They are supposed to compare what a dealer has had delievered from the manufacturers and distributors to what he has entered in his book, and what he has on hand for inventory and what he has sold and check that each sale has a valid 4473 filled out for it. Any discrepencies and they can yank his FFL and shut down his shop.
Yes, a dealer may go for years and never hear form the BATFE, or something can go wrong with one of his sales (straw purchase that gets used in a prominant murder for instance) and they can harass him out of business even if they never find a legal reason to yank his FFL.

[TallPine]

Every gun in a dealers inventory must be logged into the "bound book" upon receipt from the wholesaler or manufacturer.

Must then be logged out when it is sold with name of purchaser, and the NICS check darn well better have been done if the BATF ever checks them out.

This is what Bullseye got in trouble for ... guns missing and no record of where they went. (where Mohammed and Malvo got the Bushmaster)

I don't know how the FFL holder does it for transfering to him(her) self ... maybe they have to do a NICS on themselves ???? :p

[Mike Irwin]

If he's selling out of his own personal collection, that might be one thing...

But, even if he is, once you hold an FFL of any type, don't you have to account for any guns that you acquire, no matter what the means, by entering them into a bound book?

Obviously that might be a bit different if you're the owner of an incorporated business...

[WonderNine]

This is what Bullseye got in trouble for ... guns missing and no record of where they went. (where Mohammed and Malvo got the Bushmaster)

Didn't they steal them from the gunshop? I suppose if the shop had known who stole them....

[7.62mm]

I may be wrong on this, never having been an FFL, but I was under the distinct impression that there was no such thing as an FFL dealer's "Personal Collection".

It is my understanding that when a person becomes a dealer, they must list all of their personal inventory as part of the dealer's business inventory. If a dealer buys a firearm to collect, he still must list it in his business inventory.

I recall a dealer telling me once that he had a certain rifle he did not want to list in his inventory, so he legally sold it to his Mom. She held on to it, at her home, as her Main Battle Rifle. He could use it, of course, but it was not for the business. If she sold it to someone, then it never had to go back through the business books as she was the legal owner and he had nothing to do with the sale. He went out of business later, so I don't know what happened to the rifle.

I don't know if his strategy would survive a court challenge, but it was not a straw purchase, so there appeared to be a valid ownership change.:confused:

You might want to check VERY carefully on this issue before you not list a firearm in your FFL inventory. I heard Neal Knox, if memory serves, say once that the BATF screwed a dealer to the wall on this when paperwork errors were still felonies. :what:



Regards,

7.62mm

[Standing Wolf]

It is my understanding that when a person becomes a dealer, they must list all of their personal inventory as part of the dealer's business inventory. If a dealer buys a firearm to collect, he still must list it in his business inventory.

I've heard the same thing from two F.F.L. holders.

[Kharn]

A dealer can have a "personal collection" of arms, he just writes a note in his bound book about any guns leaving his store and going into the collection. If the gun is sold less than a year after it goes into the collection, it must have a 4473 and all that (as if it was sold from inventory), but after a year its considered a private sale and no 4473 is required (assuming no state law to the contrary).

Kharn

[7.62mm]

A dealer can have a "personal collection" of arms, he just writes a note in his bound book about any guns leaving his store and going into the collection. If the gun is sold less than a year after it goes into the collection, it must have a 4473 and all that (as if it was sold from inventory), but after a year its considered a private sale and no 4473 is required (assuming no state law to the contrary).

Kharn:

For future reference, could you cite the source of that, please.

Regards,

7.62mm

[Mike Irwin]

I definitely would also like a citation, as the concept of keeping all of my future purchases in a bound book is the one thing that has kept me from obtaining my curio & relic license.

[Kharn]

Mike & 7.62:
Here you go: ATF FAQ E8 (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#e8)

Mike: For a C&R, there is no seperate 'personal collection' of C&R guns, as the license is for your collection and not for a business. Any C&R gun you purchase after you get the license must be listed in the book, even if you fill out the 4473 (a normal FFL that fills out a 4473 can add the gun directly to his/her personal collection without adding it to his/her store's bound book. Individual dealers (like Joe of Joe's Gunshop) must maintain two books: one for the store and one for the personal collection, but no 4473 is required for the sale of guns listed in the personal collection book). The only guns that do not get listed in a C&R's bound book are the guns that are not C&R when purchased.

Kharn

[BluesBear]

A licensee may sell a firearm from his or her personal collection, subject only to the restrictions on firearm sales by unlicensed persons, provided the firearm has been entered in the licensee's bound book and transferred to the licensee's private collection at least 1 year prior to the sale. On selling the personal firearm after 1 year, the sale must be recorded in a "bound book" for disposition of personal firearms, but no ATF Form 4473 is required. [27 CFR 178.125a]
A dealer's license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics. A collector's license only enables the collector to obtain curio and relic firearms interstate. [18 U. S. C. 922( a) and 923( a)( 1), 27 CFR 178.41]
Licensed collectors are only required to keep a "bound book" record. [27 CFR 178.125( f)]

[TallPine]

Didn't they steal them from the gunshop?
Well, that was what the gunshop said ... but they never noticed it missing and didn't report a theft to the police.

The point is that the "ins" minus the "outs" must be physically present in inventory.


The Fed guys that have to go through all these hand written books matching everything up must really love their work :rolleyes:

Can you imagine how tedious and boring that must be?

[Mike Irwin]

I'm STILL up in the air about whether I want all my future purchases entered into a bound book...

That sort of defeats the entire purpose (in my mind) of private sales.

[Sunray]

"...without having to do the registration?..." His FFL for one. Staying out of jail and you won't pay enough to over come all that.
It amazes me when your guys say no we don't have gun registration then say one must fill in this ATF form if you buy from a dealer. That is registration. Is there an actual law that says the form must be filled in or is it more BS ATF regulations that have become law? Just curious. Our politicians screw us up front. They don't make up a government agency to do it for them.

[Chipperman]

Mike, just make some private sales that are not C&R guns.
They don't go into the book.

[Jessica]

From what I've been told, I am only allowed to sell guns on my business premises and absolutely no where else.

So, I'm ASSuming the ATF lady also meant selling in my home after hours was not considered business premise. ;)

[tcsd1236]

ATF wants you to have regular business hours; nothing prevents you from making sales outside of those hours to keep a customer happy..as long as its being done from the licensed address. I've done it more than a few times, particularly for regular customers whose schedules conflict with mine.

[Hkmp5sd]

If you are talking about having to maintain a bound book for C&R license transfers, when a person gives up his C&R license, he does not have to send his bound book to ATF like normal 01-FFL dealers going out of business are required to do.
ATF wants you to have regular business hours;
The reason ATF wants your "business hours" is because they have to do their inspections during those hours. They cannot call you at home at midnight wanting to do their inspection right then.

[tcsd1236]

Yeah, I was aware of that..thanks...

[TheOtherOne]

It amazes me when your guys say no we don't have gun registration then say one must fill in this ATF form if you buy from a dealer. That is registration. Is there an actual law that says the form must be filled in or is it more BS ATF regulations that have become law? Just curious. Our politicians screw us up front. They don't make up a government agency to do it for them.Exactly. We do have registration of all new firearms in the United States. I don't understand why so few want to admit it. When buying a gun, we fill out a government form with our name and address along with the serial number and type of gun we purchased. That equals registration. It's impossible to interpret that as being anything other than registration.

And, since all the guns I've ever purchased for myself have been bought from dealers in only the last year, they are all technically registered. Once the government passes a law that says all FFL's must turn in their forms to be put in a violence prevention database, they'll know exactly what I have and where to find me once the confiscation law for the children is passed. :(

[Detritus]

Once the government passes a law that says all FFL's must turn in their forms to be put in a violence prevention database, they'll know exactly what I have and where to find me once the confiscation law for the children is passed.

was in a shop one time, when the owner and another "regular" happened to be discussing this particular scenario..... the dealer's response was, "you'd be amazed at the number of 'mysterious/unfortunate fires, etc' that can occur in one night....." Now i know the guy was joking (and deceased now, so nothing can get back to him anyway) but it DOES make you wonder what would really happen.

and when the NICS call is done doesn't the clerk/dealer TELL the person ont eh other ewnd what you're buying?? as part of the check? (could be very wrong there, it's been too long since i bought a gun.

[Jessica]

...and when the NICS call is done doesn't the clerk/dealer TELL the person ont eh other ewnd what you're buying?? as part of the check? (could be very wrong there, it's been too long since i bought a gun.

The only thing we tell them by phone is whether or not we are selling a long gun or handgun.

[tcsd1236]

All they ask for is weapon type. Long gun, handgun, etc, and quantity.
For those who object to the 4473, how do you propose tracking sales without something along that line? And don't say "just abandon the 4473", since you need some way of tracking transfers and keeping them out of the hands of felons or other unfit persons...at least for retail sales.

[Stevie-Ray]

The 4473 is pretty much a joke. Nothing prevents a long gun from changing hands 15 times, and the only one on file is the original purchaser.

Yes sir, we've come to confiscate your AR-15 which was purchased on September the 27, 1976.

Are you kidding me, I sold that gun for 4 times what I paid for it 12 years ago.

And who purchased it from you, sir?

I didn't ask. He had cash.