[Jenrick]

All right after my previous thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=433395 I've decided that I need a progressive. As the title of this thread indicates, I'm now looking at what brand to go with. I've looked at Lee, RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, and Dillon. Am I missing anybody?

Currently I need decent amounts of .38 spl, 9mm, .45 ACP, and 5.56. My current shooting volume is about 2-300 rds of each caliber every week, so between 800-1k rounds per month of each.

Ideally I'd like production rates to be about 500 rounds an hour so I can do my reloading in a couple of hours every month. Obviously with 4 calibers, and one being a rifle cartridge, the time and cost of changing calibers needs to be factored in. I'd prefer to not have to mess with doing any operation off the press, basically drop a fresh fired casing into one end, and not touch it again (I know for 5.56 that may be asking a bit much).

So with all that, my ideal setup would be:

Auto indexing press with case and bullet feed. Changing out requires only changing the die head, the shell plate, and the primer size if need be and possibly tweaking the cartridge or bullet feeder. All of the change out should be accomplished without any real tools, and no need for any real adjustments.

I can live with a manual indexing press if the production rate is still high, and cartridge and bullets can be feed by hand as well.

I know this is going to be a big investment and I've decided that rather then spending on a new gun with my tax refund I'm going to get a press and what I need for it. I'd prefer to keep the initial cost under $600 (though I suppose a Dillon 1500 still is doable with my refund check...). Overall I'm probably not going to ever shoot much more then I do (unless I go pro, and then it's a whole different ball of wax) so too much press is almost as bad as not enough press.

I really appreciated everyone's time and knowledge on my other thread, and am looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

-Jenrick

[bobotech]

LOL Don't do a Dillion 1050. They are awesome for mass production but you really don't want to know just how expensive it is for caliber conversions.

All I know is that the price for a caliber conversion is obscene. But you get what you pay for and that is the best of the best when it comes to manual progressives.

[prickett]

I think for the price quoted, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that can do 600 rnds per hr. I have a RCBS 2000 and can do about half that many in an hour. I'd think the Dillion 650 would be your best bet (don't know its price off hand)

[Rembrandt]

Dillon XL650 w/case feeder would be the ticket.....unfortunately it exceeds your price range.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/uimages/dillon_reloading_machines/xl650_m.jpg

[RustyFN]

Just my opinion but if the 1050 was that good it would come with a warranty. The 650 and LNL will meet you production of 500 per hour, not sure about the RCBS.
Rusty

[bobotech]

I think the reason why Dillion doesn't officially warranty the 1050 is that it is mainly used by professional reloaders legally reselling their ammo. For example, I would not be surprised to find out that HSM uses 1050s unless they are using powered reloading equipment.

Most places won't warranty equipment used for line production work in the same way that they would warranty hobby use equipment.

[TAB]

I was debating between the 650 and the 1050, after I got on a 1050, it was a no brainer.

[dmazur]

You might consider the 550B. With it's manual indexing, it can handle bottleneck brass as a "break out" operation at the first stage. This at least gives you the opportunity to wipe off excess lube and check length in a Wilson gauge before proceeding. With carbide dies for pistol, it's fast.

[redintex]

If you feel that you have to have auto-indexing and case feeding, go with the 650. I have a 550b and can easily keep up with the volume that I need, shooting everything from .380 to .500 in handgun, and .223, 30-06, 45-70 and a few others in rifle. A good friend has a 550 with the case feeder, and it is nice; however, for frequent changes, I will stick to my 550 without the case feeder. If you are going to be changing calibers a lot, I would suggest the 550b. If you stay with one caliber for a while, the 650 would be more your speed. I definitely would not recommend the 1050 unless you are needing LARGE volume on a consistent basis. You can comfortably load 300-400 rounds per hour with the 550b. I have done as much as 500, but there is not much need for that kind of speed, and that is normally only on things like .45 ACP that I load the bulk of. A 550 will probably fit the bill just fine, or a 650 if you really need casefeeding/auto indexing.

My .02,
redintex

[Mike Kerr]

Your numbers don't really add up (or multiply up) as the case may be; but in any case it sounds like you have a 50K rounds per year ammo requirement. You are not going to fulfill that requirement in a couple of hours a month but your systematic approach to the problem will soon reveal that to you for yourself - so Im not trying to needle you. I'm trying to shorten your process.

1. You will spend 4 to 5 hours a month minimum including change outs, component buying, changing your set up procedures several times etc. it is unavoidable

2.That 4 to 5 hours per month does not include the beginning learning curve that we all endure and for that point alone I think you want a Dillon 550.

3. Either the Dillon 550 or the Dillon 650 along with the Hornady LnL will have the shortest most obtainable technical learning curve. A Dillon 1050 is beautiful, much more complex and not even close to your financial start up goal.

6 By the time you include caliber changes and related costs (conversions, dies, etc. etc.) only the 550 comes in under (or near) your budget. Both the 650 and Hornady LnL with their case feeders and 4 caliber conversions are well above your start up cost goal.

5. A 550 is set up in such a way that the cyclical rate is very high anyway even though it has manual advance. Its the easiest of any to correct mistakes on(very important for a newbie). Within a few months you will be able to exceed 500 rounds an hour if you want to - If you add the case feeder you might well hit 700 rds per hr.

6. Based on your shooting numbers you are a "shooter" not a reloading tinkerer so go with what you can learn fast on - get the ammo produced and then at the end of a year or so review and reconsider as needed.

The Lee and RCBS equipment is not really what you want for 50K rounds a year. I speak from first hand experience with Lee: Load Master's Pro 1000's , turrets etc. as well as RCBS' - they darn sure have a viable place in the market but not 50k per year for most people. My reloading life has been so much simpler since I went with Dillon's - I think yours might also.

Regards,

:):):)

[BigJakeJ1s]

By the time you include caliber changes and related costs (conversions, dies, etc. etc.) only the 550 comes in under (or near) your budget. Both the 650 and Hornady LnL with their case feeders and 4 caliber conversions are well above your start up cost goal.

If a 550 w/o case feeder is acceptable, then a LNL w/o case feeder for the same price (less with conversions) is even better (auto-indexing & 5 stations vs manual indexing & 4 stations).

Get the case feeder later.

Andy

[Jenrick]

Mike Kerr: I believe what might have led my numbers not working out, was the couple of hours a month statement. I actually meant a couple of hours every weekend. And yes, I'm far more a shooter then a loader looking for the perfect load. I'm a cartridge assembler rather then a reloader most of the time. I take known quantities of components and put them together rather then experimenting. I've got a load that works, and don't mess around with trying to find one that works better.

Hmm so far it appears as though the two camps are Dillon and Hornady. No votes or experience with others?

To those who have progressives, how important is a auto indexing? I can see the advantage of one less step to mess with, but I can also see that it's not a very big deal either.

-Jenrick

[Claude Clay]

blue 550 or red LNL
have both and each is great.
dillion a quite a bit faster for pistol loading; equal for 223 and 30-30. LNL easier /faster to change calibers and to make corrections in progress on the base plate.

[warnerwh]

As much as ammo as you need you should get at least the Dillon 650 with the brass feeder minimum. It may cost a bit more up front but it will also save quite a bit of time. Even with this two hours a weekend is pushing it unless you're good at it.

500 rounds an hour isn't easy. I never achieved it with my XL650 however I never tried to. 350-400 at best. Auto indexing is a necessity of you are concerned about high production figures.

[Mike Kerr]

Jennrick wrote:

" I actually meant a couple of hours every weekend. And yes, I'm far more a shooter then a loader looking for the perfect load. I'm a cartridge assembler"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenrick: I surmised both the per week and assembler parts. I am truly trying to help you NOT trumpet my favorite product. Heck the 650 and 1050 are both cooler than the 550 but the 550 has a "workhorse" get it done" "mechanical ease" "reasonably low cost" thats hard to duplicate for a NEWBIE. Plus there is awsome on line support from Dillon and on brianenos.com for a new reloader.

Like I mentioned the Hornady is viable; and one subsequent poster says slightly cheaper. I have less than an hour around a LnL but I liked it. It can work.

I mentioned the RCBS and Lee Loadmaster as less than ideal for 50K rounds per year - The Load Master can hit the numbers when its up and running but "on press priming" can be or is problematic in many cases; and you can have some very frustrating experiences if you push it. The RCBS looks really cool but I know it to be slower (but reliable) .

Why don't you go to brianenos.com and check out the reloading forums. I believe you could glean a lot from what is there, and its being posted by "shooters" who shoot a lot. Finally read what BE himself has written about "auto indexing" - the 550 - the 650 and so forth. He is a nationally recognized shooter who has written at least one NRA reloading manual as well as his own book on shooting.

BTW it will take 4 to 5 hours a week minimum the first year. It will either be spent reloading or learning/fixing the equipment. Hope its reloading.

Good Luck,

Regards

:):):)

[Hairballusmaximus]

Just to give you a heads up, the horny LNL shellplates are almost impossible to get right now.

Hairball


P.S. I have the LNL and love it, but have never used a Dillon. You probably will have to tinker and fuss with the LNL, I know I did, to make it run perfect. I have at max rate without the case feeder, been able to hit 800+ rounds an hour. Now this was with a 5 gal bucket of cases and having 5 primer tubes to cut down on refilling time. I average 300-400 an hour due to still making mistakes and not wanting a "mistake" to make into the ammo box.

I would do a search on the LNL shellplate issues some folks here have had, me included, and make sure its something you are willing to deal with in the event you have some issues too.

Hairball

[James Thomson]

I would have to say the Dillon 550 is much better for your budget and it's the most popular Progressive press in America. I have both the 550 and
650 and they are both great presses. The 650 is kind of a poor man's 1050. The 550 will crank out a boat load of ammo and it's easy to use and much more forgiving when something goes wrong.

[WmCC]

A large, stout Pro 2000 resides on this bench. I previously owned and used both a 550 and 650 for many years and my rate of production on them, as well as the 2000, has probably averaged between 100 and 300 rds per hour. They will operate much faster!!! However, I do not desire, or need, to load at a higher rate. Of greater importance to me is the speed and ease of cartridge "changeovers" due to the requirement to load nine (9) rifle and eleven (11) handgun cartidges. Even with dedicated heads and powder measures on the other presses, NOTHING ON THE MARKET comes close to the green press in changeover speed and ease. Another factor, my previous progressives, which I liked, seemed to need frequent (small) replacement parts which has not been an issue with the much simpler RCBS unit.

Save one or two bad primers, I have had NO Load hiccups or failures of any kind in 41 years of reloading/ shooting and I will do my best to continue that pursuit. Over the past 5 to 10 years I have seen more and more squib loads and FTF/FTE issues as well as two destryed handguns suffered by shooters who either loaded, or borrowed ammo which was loaded, on progressives... A high rate of speed and or interruptions while reloading can have dire consequences.

All of the presses mentioned are very good tools. Regardless of your choice, I encourage every person reading these threads to consider purchasing and using both a lock-out die for handgun cartridges and a powder check die for rifle cartridges to supplement your normal (visual) powder level check. One double charge of a fast or medium powder can result in damage(s) that would pay for a press and more.

[jgh4445]

Dillon 550.

[CZ223]

A 550 will produce about 500 rounds per hour of handgun ammo once you get used to it. Once you come up with a routine for loading the 223 you probably be able to turnout 300 rounds or so per hour. Get plenty of extra primer tubes and fill them in advance.

[lgbloader]

I have to say, a 550B would be what I would purchase. I guess it depends on how much time you have to reload. Maybe a Lee Classic Turret could work as well. Rusty says he can pump out about 150 - 200 rounds in a hour. caliber changes are done in a twist and snap, literally.

The 550b is about 2-3 times faster though. I can change a caliber in about 5 minutes on the 550b.

there you have it, Mate.

LGB

[1911user]

Auto index becomes important when you add a case feeder. Until then, auto or manual index doesn't make much of a speed difference.

I'm also a fan (and user) of the Dillon 550 press. You can reduce the total caliber change over time by simply loading larger batches of the same caliber. Buy more brass then you don't have to change the press configuration nearly as often.

[redintex]

I definitely agree with 1911user. Without the case feeder, it really is not that big of a deal.

[Borg]

One thing you are all not telling him,,, the case feeder for the 550 won't work with bottle neck cartridges,,, 223.
That leaves just the 650 and the L&L Hornady.
And with the price differencial and the free bullets,, the Hornady looks to be in his price range, with the bushings being cheaper than the conversion kits of the Dillon.
Which ever way you go, both are good machines.

[Jenrick]

Alright after doing a lot of reading from all of you folks, as well as some suggested links I've decided on a Dillon 550.

The biggest reason, is as several people have noted, without a case feeder manual indexing isn't a big deal. Secondly the time spent setting up and tuning a 550 is going to be less then some of the less expensive brands, Lee specifically. Third at the moment a 550 is cheaper everywhere I've looked then any other comparable press, and everyone beside's Lee and Hornady is more expensive to start with.

One of my concerns was the press having only 4 stations. After a bit of pondering I realised it shouldn't be a problem. Since I currently don't bother to crimp pistol rounds, I can install a powder check die in between the powder drop and bullet seating. For 5.56 rounds my powder load is almost a full case, so no chance of a double charge, and it's full enough I should be able to see if there is powder it in the cartridge without a problem.

I appreciate everyone's information and opinions on the issue. Now it's time to just wait quietly for my refund check :)

-Jenrick

[Fred40]

Where is a Hornady LnL more than a 550b?

A 550b without dies is $405. A Lock-N-Load without dies is $369. The dies for the Hornady cost less and are easier to change. The Hornady is a five station auto indexing press.....I would say it compares more with the 650.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dillon is a great company and makes great presses It just seems that right now you get a little more for your money with a Lock-N-Load.......and that's before you even factor in the 1000 free bullets.

[Rancho Relaxo]

I think the reason why Dillion doesn't officially warranty the 1050 is that it is mainly used by professional reloaders legally reselling their ammo. For example, I would not be surprised to find out that HSM uses 1050s unless they are using powered reloading equipment.

I stopped by HSM once when I was going to college in Missoula. They have a seriously industrialized set of reloading equipment, straight walled brass goes between two rollers to resize quickly. It's very much of an assembly line kind of thing. I saw 55 gallon drums filled with 45acp and a couple of drums with .50BMG bullets, not ammo just the bullets. Nice folks over there.

[Jenrick]

Fred40: Sorry I suppose I should clarify and say, out of all the places with presses in stock a 550 is cheaper. I think I found 3 places that had LnL in stock, and all wanted about $425+. Dies aren't a consideration, and the 1000 free bullets are all weights that I don't load for. Believe me if I could find a LNL for $369 I'd probably snag it, but at the moment the 550 is what's in stock for cheaper.

-Jenrick

[Sport45]

I can do 400-500 pistol rounds an hour with my 550b if I don't count the time spent filling primer tubes and fine tuning the powder measure.

I wouldn't even think of trying to load .223 that fast. Squib loads happen, especially when you go fast. (Think of extruded grain rifle powder bridging in that small funnel that feeds a .223) It's much easier to deal with a cast bullet stuck in a .45 handgun barrel than a jacketed bullet stuck in a .224 rifle barrel.

I haven't got the confidence to load for any of my rifles on the 550b. I still single stage those so that I can really inspect between each stage.

[lead-inspector]

Jenric

I have a Dillon 650 and love it. I have fashioned a "case feeder" from Lee parts for less than $20. PM me if interested. I am pretty sure you will not be able to add a powder check to the 550. Powder check $66.

The cost difference between the 550 and 650 (current prices) is $219 (285 with power check). 650 plus three caliber changes is $752 the 550 plus three caliber changes is $533. There will be little difference later when you want Quick Change Kits. 650 $96 each vs 550 $92.

Then you will need everything else a reloader needs. But the costs will be the same. I suggest RCBS 505 scale, Lee carbide Dies 38, 9 and 45. I have Dillon 223 dies, so I don't have a less expensive alternative that I have used. Titegroup or Win231 powder. They will meter well and are suitable all 3 pistol calibers. No experience with 223 powders. Brass, primers and projectiles will also be needed. So add these costs too. Don't forget Loading Manuals. They may be available at the local library, and loading data is available on the net.

There is currently a shortage of almost everything firearms related (not news to us is it?) so be prepared to wait.

Steve

[Shoney]

{ Irrelevant snark removed. }

When I first saw the Hornady LNL Auto Progressive 9-10 years ago, my blue product loyalty was badly shaken. I soon after bought the LNL Auto and have never regretted it. The 550 is still a good machine, and I have it dedicated to one cartridge. The LNL is by far a much superior machine. THE LNL IS LESS EXPENSIVE THAN THE 550, especially when considering the cost of quick changeover units, and the additional bonus of the Hornady 1000 bullet rebate. The more innovative powder system, the more versatile changeover system, and the fact that loaded cartridges have a better runout (more concentricity) than a 550 or a 650, all make the LNL the winner.

My hunting buddy had a 650 and was always needling me about blue is better. We often would load together, sometimes at my press, sometimes at his. After loading on the my LNL for about 2 years and after we did runout (concentricity) testing on the 3 progressive machines and 3 single stage presses, the LNL was superior. My buddy sold his 650 and got the newer LNL.

[Fred40]

Fred40: Sorry I suppose I should clarify and say, out of all the places with presses in stock a 550 is cheaper. I think I found 3 places that had LnL in stock, and all wanted about $425+. Dies aren't a consideration, and the 1000 free bullets are all weights that I don't load for. Believe me if I could find a LNL for $369 I'd probably snag it, but at the moment the 550 is what's in stock for cheaper.

-Jenrick

Hmm, I just tool delivery of my Lock-N-Load last week from MidSouth Shooters....$368.85.

Also....so far I have only loaded on a Dillon 550b (my friends). Nice machine, but after doing my research I decided to purchase a Hornady for myself.

Downside.....I have everything I need to start reloading except for the shell plate I need. I can not find it anywhere and by all accounts it could be several weeks or more before I get one.

[arizona98tj]

One of my concerns was the press having only 4 stations. After a bit of pondering I realised it shouldn't be a problem. Since I currently don't bother to crimp pistol rounds, I can install a powder check die in between the powder drop and bullet seating.

How do you handle the bell of the case opening?

Granted, I don't really "crimp" my pistol loads either since they don't have a canalure.....but I do use the crimp die to straighten up the case mouth.

[Jenrick]

I use a very minimal flare to the point that any belling is almost nonexistent. Means if I'm loading lead in .38 I'll occasionally shave the edge off of a wadcutter, but it saves me time right now on a single stage.

-Jenrick

[1911user]

You don't need a powder check die on a 550. Just look into the case at station #2 after powder is dropped before indexing it to the next position. Many place a desk lamp or something to shine light down inside the case so it's easy to see the powder. You really want to seat the bullet at station #3 otherwise you'll be reaching around behind the press each time to set a bullet on/in the case.

[CPT Kirk]

I tried many others. Got the Dillon 650 and have never looked back (got rid of the others). No comparison in my opinion. Would love a Dillon 1050, but can't see the price difference for my level of reloading and the cost of changing out for various calibers.

[Whitman31]

I've been thinking about getting to a progressive setup as well. I was looking at the Lee Loadmaster. I'm somewhat of a RCBS fan, but the available accessories and costs make the Loadmaster hard to ignore. Since nobody is promoting it, what's wrong with it?

[Clarence]

I bought a Dillon 550B and have no regrets.

[rockhound758]

LNL baby! But whatever works for you is what works for you...

[bombmaster]

Just out of curiosity.... How many members here have sold their Dillon to upgrade to RCBS or LEE? :rolleyes:

[Borg]

Surly you jest.
Don't you mean downsize?
Most people don't get rid of their single stage press,, still plenty of uses for it.
Borg

[Borg]

Lee Loadmaster is a tinkerers dream,
for other people it's a nightmare.
Some have found their way into the bayou.
Borg

[WV_Vizsla]

Hey Jenrick,
Did you ever get a press on order??
As noted above: some accessories are always back ordered. Order everything you can think of, what you miss will be on backorder till then anyways. I like the dillon primer alarm.

I selected LNL 2 years ago after driving 1K 9mm in a Dillon 550. NO function/speed compairison. Case feeder is money well spent, one less thing to touch, using mine on every case from 9mm to 300Wby. Will add an RCBS bullet feeder in 25 days (backordered:mad:)

[lykoris]

650 for sure, you'll be kicking yourself if you get a 550 and invest in calibres two years down the road

auto-index is everything

650 with case feeder....put a bullet on the case crank the handle...thats all you have to do.

I'd go insane if I had to manually index the plate and feed the brass...but each to their own.

for me saving time was important.

I'd save the funds until you had enough to get the 650 if I was you.

[freonr22]

http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillon...Comparison.pdf

a good read

[ddcarter3]

I read that paper! I am going to order a LnL this week.
Upgrading from a LoadMaster.

[jgh4445]

I had a LNL AP. Sold it and bought a 550B. No regrets. Speed isn't much of a factor with me as I am much more interested in consistency and accuracy. The time it takes to change out calibers and primer sizes isn't a factor with me either. I don't get in a hurry for anything when I load. I still work up rifle loads on a single stage. I like the idea that I can use the 550B as a single stage press easier than I could the LNL. To each his own. Get what suits you the best. Both red and blue offer fine products and fine customer service. JMHO.