All guns outlawed in Australia?


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Cannonball888
March 14, 2009, 07:34 PM
Are all guns outlawed in Austrailia or just handguns? It seems to me it would be difficult to outlaw hunting. A guy in Austrailia wants to buy my bipod, and I didn't know quite how to respond.

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Hawk
March 14, 2009, 07:40 PM
It's not even all handguns.

Go to STI's site, navigate to the Trojan and check out the Aus and NZ shooter excerpt. Evidently, whatever's outlawed, that particular STI is an approved replacement.

Our Oz members can fill you in on the particulars - I'm betting you're going to be pretty surprised.

Cannonball888
March 14, 2009, 09:30 PM
Thanks, but I went to STI's site and didn't find any link called the Trojan.

WardenWolf
March 14, 2009, 09:32 PM
Generally, only farmers or people living in remote areas are allowed to have guns (and only shotguns or rifles), then only for protection from predators. Self-defense is not a valid reason to own or use a gun. A lot of the Australian guns are wildcats based on the British .303. The .303 round and firearms for them were outlawed, so they modified their guns to bypass this very specific prohibition. Allowing new guns in-country is more to allow replacement of worn out guns for legitimate users, and the allowed weapons have to be approved.

Cannonball888
March 14, 2009, 09:37 PM
Thanks for the info. Self-defense is not a valid reason? It boggles the mind how Austrailian citizens could allow this to happen to them.

WardenWolf
March 14, 2009, 09:42 PM
Remember that Australia used to belong to Great Britain. Great Britain's civilians are still technically subjects, and their laws reflect this (as do the laws of their former colonies). It has been said that an armed civilian is a citizen. An unarmed civilian is a subject. Even in developed countries, this same correlation holds true. Australia's citizens are viewed as subjects of their government, and the government thus seeks to control them and decide for them what they, in their detached-from-reality ivory tower, think is best.

bonza
March 14, 2009, 10:17 PM
There is alot of misinformation out there on the state of gun ownership in Australia. I am a former Australian citizen now living in the U.S., but go back to visit fairly often, primarily to shoot as it happens.
Australia is comprised of six states & two territories, each have slightly differing gun laws but the general gist is something like this:
Semi-auto rifles are prohibited, as are semi-auto & pump action shotguns, though there are some exemptions from this for various reasons eg. agricultural and professional (rabbit/kangaroo) shooters. Bolt action, lever action, pump action (rifles), single shot, side/side, & over/under shotguns are still quite available & legal in the same models & calibers/guages as we see here in the U.S. Handguns in Australia have been restricted for many years, & generally require the owner to be an active/participating member of a pistol club, which requires a minimum number of shooting competitions a year to keep the license. I believe calibers over .38/.357 are no longer allowed, though again, I believe certain exemptions may be be available for certain shooting disciplines, ie. IHMSA, etc. , but I'm not 100% on that.
The use of firearms for personal/home protection is very much frowned upon by the powers-that-be, in fact all firearms MUST be locked away when not in actual use at the range or in the field, even when being transported in a vehicle. Ammunition, too, must be kept in a seperate locked container. Back in the 1970s I knew a handful of people who had permits to carry a concealed handgun, it was rare then & I would think almost non-existant now. On the other hand, a friend of mine used to be a clerk for the Australian Post Office in the 1970s & would sometimes have to run to the bank to pick up money for payroll or whatever, his supervisor would just hand him a Browning .32 auto to put in his pocket while he was out on those errands.....times have certainly changed!
Competition shooting & hunting are both very popular in Australia, in fact I could participate in many more shooting competitions, on a more regular basis, if I lived in Australia than I have available to me here in the U.S., but then again there aren't many other reasons to own guns there other than to compete or to hunt.
The old .303 wildcats are pretty much a thing of the past. They were mostly a post-WW2 expediency, due to the lack of new sporting arms in the post war years. You'd see them in .22/.303, .243/.303, .25/.303, .270/.303, & even .375/.303. As I mentioned earlier, Australians now have all the standard & latest calibers we have, so you rarely come across any of the old .303-based rifles & ammo.
I think the way firearms ownership has gone in Australia over the last fifteen or so years is tragic, but they are in far better shape than many people would have you believe.
Just wanted to clear that up.

Zoogster
March 14, 2009, 10:27 PM
Australian law is complicated, nothing is ever "outlawed" so much as it is restricted beyond the means of the average person.
They are not technicaly outlawed because government contractors and others can still get military hardware, full auto firearms, semi-auto arms etc with the proper license.

Australia has multiple license types.
The types of licenses the people who aquire them ususaly get only permit things like SxS and O/U shotguns. Even those only ususaly go to farmers in rural areas, though some others manage to go through the proper hoops.


Pump action and semi auto firearms require a license most have no hope of aquiring.

Category A licenses owned by some in rural areas allow airgun longarms (bb gun etc no handgun types) non pump or semi-auto shotguns, paintball guns, and non semi-auto rimfire rifles and airsoft guns.

Category B allow non semi-auto centerfire rifles, and some muzzle loaders.

The finaly category a gun desiring citizen has hope of aquiring with many hoops and red tape is a:
Category H allowing only certain caliber pistols (primarily those under .38 caliber.)
That ususaly requires long term enrollment in a club. There is minimum size requirements, minimum barel lengths, 10 round capacity maximum for the handguns and tons of restrictions.
A category H license is required to legaly own a pistol sized airgun as well.


The licenses require government inspection of government approved safes twice a year. They must be bolted to the foundation or weigh a minimum weight.
Different weapon categories require even bigger tough more expensive safes.


A category C license is where semi auto rifle and pump shotgun long arms start. They are limited to 10 or 5 round magazine capacity respectively, and nearly impossible for most people to get.
Category D are unrestricted capacity long arms in semi-auto and pump and almost nobody has them except those who make a living shooting.


Most people will be unable to get more than a category B license. If you want to belong to a sport shooting club and go through various red tape it may be possible to get yourself a category H and own a handgun.


Storage requirements when not in use are much more restrictive as well greatly limiting potential self defense, requiring firearms and ammunition stored seperately.
Each territory can have slightly different requirements, but they are generaly similar.

Before 1996 people in portions of Autralia had greater firearm righ..erm, privelidges than even people in the USA.
In Tasmania for example you could easily aquire full auto and select fire military arms.
In a few years they had far less.

QUEENSLAND:
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/

NEW SOUTH WALES:
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_issues/firearms

VICTORIA:
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=111

SOUTH AUSTRALIA:
http://www.sapolice.sa.gov.au/sapol/services/firearms_weapons.jsp

WEST AUSTRALIA:
http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Services/FirearmsandWeapons.asp?Firearms

TASMANIA:
http://www.police.tas.gov.au/permits/firearms

NORTHERN TERRITORY:
http://www.nt.gov.au/pfes/police/services/firearms/index.html

AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY:
http://www.afp.gov.au/act/firearms

Prince Yamato
March 14, 2009, 10:50 PM
From the Tasmanian website:

Protection of yourself, your family or your property is not considered a genuine reason.

Bull...

Zoogster
March 14, 2009, 10:52 PM
Protection of yourself, your family or your property is not considered a genuine reason.

Bull...


And Tasmania is the most conservative pro firearm portion of Australia.

The official forms of course do not tell reality on the ground, just like someone outside of the USA would not understand the official NFA process in the USA and the associated limitations, and costs just by seeing the forms.

Owning and using are also completely different and actualy using firearms even recretionaly, and transportation of them has a whole set of associated laws as well not simply explained by the forms.

Since all licenses are discretionary since police must approve the storage twice a year and the firearms themselves almost no catagory C or D licenses are in reality issued. Yet by looking at the forms alone it looks like you could just apply for one.

Hawk
March 14, 2009, 10:55 PM
Thanks, but I went to STI's site and didn't find any link called the Trojan

STI Complete Guns -> Single Stack/Trojan5.0 -> Read about the Trojan -> Asia Pacific -> Australian and New Zealand Handgun (PDF).

Fred West
March 15, 2009, 10:51 AM
Self-defense is not a valid reason? It boggles the mind how Austrailian citizens could allow this to happen to them.

And how do you propose to stop it. Their government, any government, can do what they want and there's nothing you can do about it short of voting them out at the next election.

Fred.

Onmilo
March 15, 2009, 04:17 PM
So, with the restricions in mind, what are the popular and available firearms in Australia at this time?
What are the pricing structures for these firearms and what is the pricing and restrictions on ammunition?

If keeping a firearm for defense against predators isn't "self defense" then I don't know what is.
Even with the seeming popularity of meth cooking in my part of the world, one is far more likely to encounter a feral dog or a rabid raccoon or skunk than a miscreant human bent intent on doing harm.

I also consider miscreant humans bent on doing harm to another human in the same realm as a predator animal and will deal with them in the same fashion.
I imagine the same view applies in Australia.

bonza
March 15, 2009, 07:41 PM
What are the pricing structures for these firearms and what is the pricing and restrictions on ammunition?

Here's a link to a gun shop near Sydney. You can check out what's available down there & the costs. For comparison sake, as of today (3/15), US$1 would buy you AUS$1.53. Speaking with my friends in Australia it seems their wages for comparable jobs are a bit lower than here, plus their taxes are much higher.

If keeping a firearm for defense against predators isn't "self defense" then I don't know what is.

I think this refers to the remark about farmers being able to get licenses for certain types of firearms that may not be generally available (ie. semi-auto rifles). The firearms aren't intended to be used to defend the farmer against attack by wild animals, but to eradicate the threat, either physical attack or competitive grazing, to his livestock by shooting the wild pigs, dogs, donkeys, horses, goats, camels, etc.

rogertc1
March 15, 2009, 08:23 PM
I just got a NIB Austrailian M10 1a which is a Enfield bolt aucton jungle carbine modern copy. Comes in 7.62X39 aNd uses AK magazines.

http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/M10-B1.shtm

Yankee
March 15, 2009, 08:54 PM
Zoogster pretty much nails it in his overview of our laws. Despite the knee-jerk response to the Port Arthur massacre, shooting is still a very popular sport here. In fact, Australia's equivalent of the NRA has seen a steady increase in membership and the number of firearms being registered is also on the increase. Losing many of our gun rights has not been the death of shooting sports and hunting but it is terrible to think about how good we once had things and how quickly and easy those freedoms were taken away.

I'll just clarify a few things that haven't been correctly described. Self-defence is not an satisfactory or sufficient justification for obtaining any class of firearm in Australia but that does not mean that once that weapon has been acquired, that it cannot legally be used in a self-defence situation. We have had a number of examples over the years where people have used firearms during home invasions and who have not been imprisoned. On the other hand, I know of at least one case where a home-owner shot and paralysed a man trying to steal his dope crop and he had the book thrown at him for using lethal force in a non-life-threatening situation (and for growing drugs).

Handguns including semi-autos are legal here and pistol shooting is a popular sport. However, the process to get and keep one is very onerous and expensive. Everyone must have a legal reason for acquiring a pistol and as previously mentioned, self-defence does not count. Unless you're a farmer or security gaurd, your reason will have to be "Club Use" meaning that you want one because you plan to participate in competition shooting. Whatever your reason is, you send away your application to the Police and after a background check, they will send you a letter saying that you are authorised to attend training at an approved training facility. My club ran the course for me and it took ten one-hour sessions with an instructor and cost something like $300. Most other clubs run the same course over a weekend. Once you have completed the course, you then have to join a licenced pistol club (mine cost $250) and the club then sends a letter to the Police to confirm that you have successfully passsed the course and that you are a financial member of the club. After a minimum of 28 days, your licence will come in the mail which requires a photograph and another $60. You are then free to purchase a handgun but that will come with another 28 day waiting period and for the first six months of your licence, the handgun must be stored at the club. After six months, you can take it home but it must be stored in a locked safe when not in use. OK, so that's good, you finally have your handgun at home (keep in mind that there is a 10-shot capacity limit). In order to keep that hnadgun, you must now attend a minimum of six competitive shoots a year and remain a paid-up member of the club. If you fail to pay your dues or attend your six events, the police will be on to you in no time demanding that you surrender the weapon and your licence.

4Freedom
March 16, 2009, 10:06 AM
I had a friend from India who was studying hospitality management in Sydney as a foreign student. He told me that the crime in the city is out of control. Knifings are very regular. One night he was on the subway or whatever the public transit system they use over there is, and a group of Lebanese thugs came and sat around him. THey then stuck a knife to his throat. and one guy punched him. Knowing he was defenseless and that a knife against a group of well armed thugs wasn't go to work for him, he was forced to relinquish his wallet and watch. He had a gold necklace that was part of his Hindu religion that his grandfather or someone gave him. He lied and said it was a cheap piece of junk that he found at a market in India and offred to give it to them. Thankfully, they were not so smart and let him keep that.

I just want to thank you Government of Australia for allowing criminals ot have free reign in your cities and to imprison your subjects (Civilians) to a state of servitude and fear. Good job making Australia a dangerous place to travel at night and helping empower thieves and tyrants in your country.

WHile these bereaucratic dogs are hiding in their big mansions guarded by men holding fully automatic machine guns, their citizens are forced to hide themselves from the power of thugs and a police force who probably just doesn't give enough of a damn about them.

Nulzilcho
March 16, 2009, 03:13 PM
I can vouch for that, although firearm deaths have dropped slightly (a trend research indicates began as early as 1992 in any case) violent crime rates have risen dramatically, particularly in urban areas. In the suburban area I lived when I began study at university we had robberies and sexual assaults on at least a weekly basis ...which was something to give pause on the early morning walks to work.

As for how the media typically treats the issue of firearm ownership over here ...well, I stumbled across this the other week: http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25157413-5001021,00.html :uhoh:

Also, as this is my first post (having lurked for about a year) I'd like to say hello to everyone. :waves: I picked up target shooting with pistols about two years ago after writing an essay on firearm laws and have in the last nine months begun shooting rifles.

Yankee
March 16, 2009, 08:44 PM
As an American, I'd love to believe that we are not only a safer place than other similar industrialised nations, but that safety is largely attributable to the second amendment. Unfortunately, I believe that this is not the case. I have spent many years living abroad in both Europe and Australia and the reality is that neither of those places is anywhere near as dangerous as many of our large American cities. Here are just a few examples I'll use as evidence. Data is the most recent I could find and I have focused on just Australia because that was the reason for this thread in the first place. Stats come from this site but citations are given to the original surveys.
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime

In 2002, 16204 Americans were murdered compared to 302 Australians. America's population is fourteen times larger than Australia's but the number of murders 53 times higher. This means that on any given day, an American is nearly three times more likely to die by the hands of one of their fellow citizens.

An American is 9.5 times more likely on any given day to be murdered with a firearm than an Australian. Keep in mind that this is deliberate killing and not hunting accidents, suicide, range mishaps etc.

420,637 robberies were reported in the US compared to 23,314 in Australia meaning that Americans are 20% more likely to be robbed.

One percent of Australian women reported that they were victims of a rape in 2002 compared to 0.4% of Americans meaning that American women were just 0.6% less likely to suffer sexual assault.

Americans are 7% more likely to suffer a violent physical assault.

Australians have the highest rate of car theft in the world with an Australian nearly twice as likely to have their car stolen than an American.

America leads the world in incarcerating it's citizens with more prisoners than Communist China despite the fact that China has 4.5 times more people. Americans are 6 times more likely to be in prison than Australians.

As I said at the start, I wish we could say that America is the safest place in the world and it's as a direct result of our firearm freedoms, but reality says otherwise. Personally I believe that much of this is cultural. I grew up in a community saturated with firearms and crime was unheard of. I've been to places like Switzerland and Israel where every citizen is armed and yet the crime rate is nothing like it is in America. I've been to places in Africa where the only firearms are in the hands of the government and yet rape and murder is out of control. Rather than access to firearms, I suspect that the strongest driver of crime in America is things like extreme poverty, drug dependence, poor education, mass immigration from the third world, lack of social cohesion, absence of male role-models, moral-free education etc

rogertc1
March 18, 2009, 04:09 PM
The USA has more population and land than Austrailia. Australia a county linked to English criminals who exploited the local native population.

moooose102
March 18, 2009, 05:32 PM
" self defense is not a valid reason"
so, that means that an austraulian citizens life, or the lives of their loved ones are not worth protecting according to the government, right? THAT IS GARBAGE! :cuss::fire: i am beginning to think the whole world is going MAD!

Yankee
March 18, 2009, 08:04 PM
The USA has more population and land than Austrailia.
The crime figures I gave are rates of crime meaning that they are adjusted for the differences in our population. As for the areas of our countries, the continent of Australia and the contiguous United States are almost exactly the same size.

Australia a county linked to English criminals who exploited the local native population.
And America is different how?. Despite being identified as an ideal site for a penal colony, the overwhelming majority of Australia's first settlers were free men and women. My State for example never had any prisoners from England and is a chunk of land bigger than Texas.

self defense is not a valid reason....so, that means that an austraulian citizens life, or the lives of their loved ones are not worth protecting according to the government
No - self defence is not considered a valid reason to purchase a firearm. Self defence is still a valid principle in our laws. I can legally take another person's life with any of my firearms if a jury believes that I did it in self defence.

mljdeckard
March 18, 2009, 08:07 PM
Self-defense is still an accepted defense in Australia, (for now) however, it is no longer a valid defense in Britain.

Yankee touches some legitimate points.

Zoogster
March 18, 2009, 08:36 PM
Yankee, America is a violent place for some portions of the population. Most murders involve those in the drug trade and gang members.

Even removing all gun related murders, which are a lot because the best tool is often used for the job, you find the US has a higher murder rate than the UK.


If statistics and effectiveness are what matters you can adopt that logic ot its conclusion.
You can logicly follow the reduction in crime logic all the way to the point of practicly locking every citizen up, and having no rights which limit police authority. Or having everyone under constant surveillance with paramilitary teams ready to act at any moment.
Individual "rights" get in the way of absolute effectiveness.
Absolute efficiency, and few legal hurdles for a government facing any problem have the best statistics.

China operates on such principles. Efficiency and statistics. The ends justify the means.

In fact if you strongly reduce the first Amendment (freedom of expression, speech etc) you can greatly limit all negative subcultures, and reduce violence tremendously.
Having a much larger impact on all crime than any limits on the 2nd Amendment.
No gangster or criminal glorification, no movies where the criminals succeed or are not killed or captured etc.

By restricting freedom and creating strong tyranny you can become absolutely efficient. You can even easily resolve issues like overcrowding by mandating infantacide for any newborns over the legal limit. China knows.
Imprison people who question the tactics that lead to absolute efficiency and success.
A police state with no privacy rights, and no due process is much more efficient.



Fortunately we had some founding fathers who cared more about idealogy and pinciples of liberty and freedom than statistics and efficiency.
A nation where the individual and thier rights are more important than collective efficiency.
Where people from around the world would flock to long before a good quality of life was normal in America.
For the average American citizen they have far more freedoms than most of the world and not much more danger either. Unless they make the free choice to be part of the subcultures that are involved in most murders the national statistics do not apply to them.
If you adjust the statistics to remove such drug dealers and gang members the rates are actualy lower than for similar people in much of Europe also not drug dealers or gang members.
A person not involved in such subcultures is actualy more likely to get randomly attacked in portions of Europe than in the United States.
Places where "fun hobbies" like the "happy slap" exist. Activities that would get thugs and miscreants killed in the US.



Even if that was not the case, you only live once. A shorter life of freedom would be better than a long life on your knees. Greater control over individual destiny cannot be replaced by generalized statistics.

Yankee
March 18, 2009, 09:08 PM
You can logicly follow the reduction in crime logic all the way to the point of locking every citizen up, and having no rights which limit police authority. China operates on such principles.

Actually America is closer to those principles. It is an irrefutable fact that the United States incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world including places like China, North Korea and Burma. Please explain to me how that somehow makes America more "Free".

You seem to be trying to say that countries without unrestricted firearms freedom are somehow tyranical and I just dont think you have the evidence for that. Their are countries with strict firearms controls which are oppressive (eg China) and there are countries without firearm controls which are oppressive (eg virtually all of central and Western Africa). Alternatively, there are countries with strict firearm laws which are anything but oppressive and tyranical eg Australia, New Zealand, Scandanavia.

So I had to jump through quite a few hoops before I could buy my Glock 34 - big deal. I don't have a problem with mandatory safety training for all shooters. A gun is no different to a motor car. It should be respected, it's capabilities understood and recognised that it can be deadly if used without caution. We demand training for drivers and we should demand training for shooters. How many threads do we have on here about acidental shooting deaths, unsafe practices at ranges etc?

By the way, have you ever been to Australia? Do you know any Australians? Try standing up in any Australian pub and call them weak, oppressed sheeple with no freedoms. The guys I know would take pleasure in freely kicking your arse.

You only live once, 20 years of freedom is better than 50 on your knees. Statistics be damned.
Stiring rhetoric but the statistics say that your 9.5 times more likely to be killed by a fellow citizen than an Australian is. 80 years of life is better than an eternity in the grave.

Javelin
March 18, 2009, 09:19 PM
My sig says it all.

;)

Yankee
March 18, 2009, 09:45 PM
I just want to reiterate that despite what many Americans may have led to believe, yes, Australia does still have a healthy and vibrant community of gun owners including handguns. The number of firearms being legally purchased is continuing to grow rapidly while this country hasn't seen a mass-shooting in 12 years. My friends and I still hunt deer, foxes, rabbit, pigs, goats, duck and buffalo as often as we can and vast swathes of the country are still uninhabited and perfect for game. The loss of certain classes of firearms did not magically turn us into sheeple anymore than a total ban on automatic weapons would instantly turn Americans into slaves. Yes, there are guns I would love to see back on the shelves and I have recently been pleased to see small improvements to minor gun laws and live in hope that we may overturn some bans. A my tag line says, I believe that the second ammendment is an essential liberty and not just for Americans but for all people but I think many people are wrong or very simplistic to just assume that gun rights is the benchmark for individual liberty or that free and easy access to firearms equates to a more free or more safe community.

Mascoma
March 18, 2009, 10:22 PM
All I have to say is this...

"if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything..."

If we don't like what the law makers are doing with our gun rights then we have mass together and change who is making the laws. if we just sit back and say oh that will never happen well remember prayer in schools...They'll get my guns when they pull'em from my cold dead hands...

rogertc1
March 19, 2009, 07:39 AM
Went to get my 91 Mercury Capri out of winter store. Darn thing won't run right...missing. Just put a grand in it last year. Guess which country made that auto?
You are right. From down under.:mad:

Mascoma
March 19, 2009, 08:06 AM
robertC1, What does that have to do with anything... I once had a horse with a broken leg, so I shot it (Gun related)... but that didn't fix the leg...

Old Guy
March 19, 2009, 08:30 AM
I lived in Australia 1965 till 1968, loved it, owned a Browning Hi Power, a Chief Special, .22 Star Target Pistol, and I belonged to a great gun club.

Live in the land of the FREE now, carry permit, always carry.

Have not shot anybody yet, most likely never will.

BUT I CAN IF I NEED TOO! That is the difference in living in the U. S. of A!

In Orlando we are surrounded by nice people, well mannered and pleasant, but being nice does not equate to being soft!

Keep Safe.

USMC 1975
March 19, 2009, 09:18 AM
I am married to an Aussie and visit there now and again to see her family. Not once have I ever felt unsafe. There are small pockets of crime in the big cities but these are neighborhoods you typically stay clear of.

I have been fortunate enough to travel around Europe and for the most part felt the same way there.........Safe.

I cannot say the same thing about the area I live in ( Tampa Bay area ). This is the reason why I carry a gun everywhere I go.

Chris

Shung
March 19, 2009, 09:34 AM
Better to feel safe and still have a gun, than not ;)

That's what im angry about. they don't give me the choice..

Mike2
March 19, 2009, 09:48 AM
Don't get me wrong, one thing I think we are all over looking is this; In the US, we have a group of folks known as liberals. These folks sit here and condemn guns, tell us that homosexualtiy is ok, tell us how to raise our children and if we don't, take our children away, force us to be tolerant of there way of life but will not tolerate our way of life, kill innocent children before they have a chance to be born, protest the legal extermination of people who murder and commit terrible crimes........and on and on and on yet these same people (the liberals voting base) are the ones (tyyically) who are the ones committing the crimes in the US. Last time I checked with our local law enforcement (sherriff and chief of police are good friends of mine) 100% of the folks they had locked up felt like we owed them something, were actively on welfare or some other gooberment program, had the entitlement mentality, were crackheads/ pot heads/ gang bangers/ thugs/ etc. Again, don't get me wrong, I know all of these folks are not bad but most of them fit the profile. We have higher crime rates in the US because of bad people, we have a disproportionate amount of bad people because we (as a nation/ government) tolerate and even encourage more bad people because of the programs that we offer them. It all boils down to political power and keeping your voting base satisfied, keep the monthly welfare checks rolling and we'll keep voting for you, keep the WIC programs running and we'll keep voting for you, keep slapping us on the wrist for selling crack and we'll keep voting for you, keep medicaid funded/ government hand outs going and we'll keep voting for you. It all boils down to this, certain people really suck and we have a LOT of them here in the US. Other countries don't put up with this crap and people actually have to be relatively decent people. I respect Austalia and other countries like it, at least a large portion of there population work hard, mind there own business and believe in those same fundamental freedoms that we do. Hope I didn't piss any liberals off but if I did, there is a thing called the 1st amendment that applies to me too, not just to you. Let the flames begin...........:D

Shung
March 19, 2009, 10:28 AM
Mike2, i strongly disagree with you on abortion..

I mean, I'd rather save the "life" of a young mother that doesnt want/cannot be one at that moment, than force her to have this child.. both would suffer from this "forced" situation.. A child MUST be desired.

it's everyone's choice, and NOBODY should decide for these mothers. (and a 6 weeks embryon life isnt more important than a adult grown women one)

Same goes for death penalty.. I fully agree with you that murderers and rapist dont desserve anything else than death..
BUT, I refuse to kill ONE innocent by mistake, even if it means sparing 100 guilty people.. Death penalty would be good if there was 0% mistake.. but we are FAR from it.. Look in GB.. this week, after 25 years in jail, they discovered that one was innocent (DNA proven).. We rob him 25 years.. awful, but still better than taking his life away.. lifetime jail isnt the best solution, but it's the more acceptable.. Still give the innocent ones chance to be proven innocent and to be free again. Of course, I'd make the prisonners work as everybody else, to pay for their life in jail.

on one point you are 100% right ! the one you call liberals/greens/leftiest want us to tolerate their way of life and ideas, but they are totally unable to respect ours ! They are the most untolerant people around, even if they don't realise it yet.

Mike2
March 19, 2009, 02:02 PM
Mike2, i strongly disagree with you on abortion..

I mean, I'd rather save the "life" of a young mother that doesnt want/cannot be one at that moment, than force her to have this child.. both would suffer from this "forced" situation.. A child MUST be desired.

it's everyone's choice, and NOBODY should decide for these mothers. (and a 6 weeks embryon life isnt more important than a adult grown women one)

I agree with you, if a mother's life is at stake or there has been rape or incest I can accept abortion with these circumstances in mind, however, we use abortion as birth control in the US, contraception can be had at NO charge so there really is no excuse for unplanned pregnancies. I wasn't trying to start an abortion thread just building a mindset about the problems we have here in the States to convey what IMO is truly wrong with folks here.
Same goes for death penalty.. I fully agree with you that murderers and rapist dont desserve anything else than death..
BUT, I refuse to kill ONE innocent by mistake, even if it means sparing 100 guilty people.. Death penalty would be good if there was 0% mistake.. but we are FAR from it.. Look in GB.. this week, after 25 years in jail, they discovered that one was innocent (DNA proven).. We rob him 25 years.. awful, but still better than taking his life away.. lifetime jail isnt the best solution, but it's the more acceptable.. Still give the innocent ones chance to be proven innocent and to be free again. Of course, I'd make the prisonners work as everybody else, to pay for their life in jail.
I agree with you on this one also, Im just really tired of confessed Ax murderers, rapist, serial killers sitting in jail for 40 years, costing the tax payers literally millions and millions of dollars per year to feed there rotten rearends when they should have been fried 35 years ago. Again, just trying to set the stage for discussion.
Totally agree with you on the rest........have a good one and keep your powder dry!!!;)

bonza
March 19, 2009, 02:50 PM
Mike2, As I mentioned in my original post in this thread, I am originally from Australia & moved to the U.S. sixteen years ago & still make the occasional visit to see family & friends. Believe me, when I say the U.S. may have problems with its welfare system, but it's nothing compared to Australia's. Virtually everyone down there is sucking from the government teat, if they want to or not. As soon as you have kids the government sends you a check each month, the more kids you have the more money you get.
When my wife & I had our first child the checks started to arrive. Sadly, our baby died at three months (SIDS), so we went in to the gov't office to tell them to stop sending the 'child-support' checks & they were flabbergasted that we'd even bother requesting that. When our second baby came along we were renting-to-buy a house from my parents, my wife worked part-time & I worked nights at General Motors so we were doing ok financially, but because we were 'renting' we automatically qualified for additional 'assistance' from the govt. This is back in the early 1990s, so I'm a bit foggy as to the amount, but I seem to think we were getting over $200/month.

Living in the U.S., the only way I'm going to get any assistance from the government is if I ask them for it (the occasional 'stimulus' check not withstanding!!), & I prefer it that way.

To add some firearms-content to this post, when I first started shooting in Australia, it was 1975 & I was fifteen. At that time, in my state, you only had to have a licence if you were between the ages of 15 & 18, an adult didn't need one, except for handguns. Registration was optional at 50cents/gun. A few years later new legislation was passed, on the state level, & licences were required for all firearm users & registration became mandatory. You could still buy any long-gun from a gun shop or private party without any waiting period, but you had to have the correct classification of licence for the gun you bought, & you had fourteen days in which to register it. It was still that way when I left in 1993. Most of the current laws/restrictions they have are due to the Pt. Arthur (Tasmania) shootings back around 1996.

jrhines
March 19, 2009, 03:45 PM
Yankee..."I think many people are wrong or very simplistic to just assume that gun rights is the benchmark for individual liberty or that free and easy access to firearms equates to a more free or more safe community."

It says "free state", nobody asks for it to be "more safe". The principles engendered in the 2A would still be true if the constitution were never written, "to ensure a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". I'll keep myself safe, thank you!

UnclePete
March 19, 2009, 04:13 PM
Self-defense is still an accepted defense in Australia, (for now) however, it is no longer a valid defense in Britain.

Not true sir. Self defence is not accepted as a reason for owning a gun in Britain, but if you happen to have one handy using it for that reason is not a crime in itself, depends on the circumstances.

This guy killed an intruder and was aquitted (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5889125.ece).

Ultimately it is up to a jury, and they tend to sympathise with people who fought back when in jeapordy. The only case I know of when someone was convicted after killing an intruder was Tony Martin. Crucially, he shot a boy who was running away, but even so Martin was released very early from prison, and has always attracted massive public support.

MHBushmaster
March 19, 2009, 04:16 PM
Yankee, you wrote: "I think many people are wrong or very simplistic to just assume that gun rights is the benchmark for individual liberty or that free and easy access to firearms equates to a more free or more safe community."

and you also wrote this gem: "there are countries with strict firearm laws which are anything but oppressive and tyranical eg Australia"


You sound like an obedient subject. Something that you and your UK friends have had bred out of your populace is the realization of inherent Inalienable Rights. You and your fellow subjects let the government oppress you, you have let them take control of your Rights. That is tyranny, that is oppressive. Want proof, here is how your government views this subject:

"Protection of yourself, your family or your property is not considered a genuine reason for owning a firearm." -Australian Government


You can pull inferential statistics that have been "modified" to try and show that your Aussie Rules makes your average subject more "safe" as compared to an American Citizen.

But here is the rub: in America YOU CAN LEGALLY CARRY AND DEFEND YOUR LIFE WITH A GUN AND LEGALLY OWN THE GUN FOR JUST THAT PURPOSE. Translated for subjects: We don't have to cower in fear while thugs on a train hold us up at knife point, we can and will resist with lethal force from a firearm if the US citizen so chooses to lawfully and rightly arm themselves for self protection.

I'd rather die as an American on my feet with my S&W 10mm in slide-lock in my dead hands than on my knees as defenseless subject (or live in fear that I couldn't defend my life because my overlords don't deem me worthy of protecting my life and the lives of my family).

*I have known, been coworkers and even dear friends with many Australians and Kiwi's. I had friends in my wedding that traveled from Australia (Melbourne and Tazmania) and from New Zealand (Christchurch). So I'm not without understanding how folks down there act and how they are in regards to laws/government. :)

Buck Snort
March 19, 2009, 05:30 PM
"Thanks for the info. Self-defense is not a valid reason? It boggles the mind how Austrailian citizens could allow this to happen to them.''

They voted in a bunch of liberals, they deserve what they've got!

Mike2
March 19, 2009, 06:14 PM
Bucksnort...............we did too. (Technically we didn't but a simple majority of Americans did) We will be facing these same problems shortly. Now the socialist are in control (granted they don't have a supermajority but its getting closer). We have seen the US steam roll toward socialism at an even faster pace in the last few years and will only pick up more steam with the current administration. Sad fact is, regardless of who is in control Republicans are taking us toward socialism at 50 mph and dems are taking us at 1000 mph, we are still headed in the same direction.... its got to start on the local level and move from there. Become active in local politics, we need "Gun toting Right wing extremists" in state and local government and then slowly make the way up from there one race at a time. By all means necessary we must protect our 2A rights, they are being slowly and methodically taken away from us in the name of security.....

Yankee
March 19, 2009, 08:10 PM
"Thanks for the info. Self-defense is not a valid reason? It boggles the mind how Austrailian citizens could allow this to happen to them.''

They voted in a bunch of liberals, they deserve what they've got!

Might want to check your history there mate - it was a newly elected conservative government, one of the most conservative we've ever had. Problem was that after the worst mass-shooting in history, the largely urban public were screaming for action and a ban on some types of semi-automatic weapons was the result. I disagreed strongly with it, attended rallies, wrote to my local member and the Prime Minister as did tens of thousands of gun owners. The laws were still passed. I guess you'll call us sheeple because we didn't form militia, abandon our families and conduct an armed insurgency against our government - you know, battle to the death, Molon Labe, from my cold dead hands etc etc. Now we live in this hellish fascist state crawling around on our knees having to beg for scraps from the government and dreaming of being truly free one day - yep that's modern Australia alright. I look forward to being inspired and reading the frontline dispatches from the brave insurgents on this board once Obama and Holder turn their attention to banning guns in the US. I'm sure we'll be just as effective at stopping limitations on our gun rights as we have been at stopping other limitations on our freedoms. Remind me again which country has nationalised vast swathes of its economy and spends more public money on health care than any nation on earth?

Yankee
March 19, 2009, 08:35 PM
I'd rather die as an American on my feet with my S&W 10mm in slide-lock in my dead hands than on my knees as defenseless subject (or live in fear that I couldn't defend my life because my overlords don't deem me worthy of protecting my life and the lives of my family

Thanks to America's social degeneration you have a very good chance of your scenario coming true. As with so many people, I think you have taken an extreme view. I have a Glock 34 in my bedroom and a shotgun in the next room. I'm a former soldier and well trained in defensive tactics. The law restricts me from having a magazine larger than 10 rounds on the handgun and the shotgun is not semi-automatic. Tell me - do you really think I'm living on my knees as a defenceless subject? Do you think I live in fear? Do you think I can't protect the lives of my family? Because our restrictive gun laws have made it extremely difficult and expensive to obtain weapons illegally, I garantee you that I am better armed than 99% of the petty criminals that are likely to think about invading my home and I am better trained than than the other 1%. The truth is that the scenario is almost unthinkable here but in much of urban America, the sad truth is that it is almost inevitable. The main difference is that the lowlife home invader in America will almost certainly be carrying something more dangerous than a screwdriver.

Old Guy
March 20, 2009, 08:36 AM
Yankee,

If all you have is a 12 gage side by side, no one is walking out the front door they bust in through, right?

But I have to say my Glock 19 will feel nice when I walk out of my front door this morning.

Sorry, not correct, I drive out of the garage, close it with a remote, hit the alarm remote for the house.

Love Florida, but take precautions!

I loved NSW when I lived there as well.

Have a Schooner of Tooys(sp) on me!

Keep Safe.

Morgo
March 22, 2009, 05:45 AM
Yes all handguns are banned in Australia
http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp4/brycemorgan452/P1020430.jpg

Don't believe what you hear from the media they are hardly ever correct, or atleast telling all the truths/facts.

One crash course for current Australian gun laws coming up;

Cat A - air rifle, shotguns (not pump or self loading) rimfire rifles (pump and lever ok but not self loading)
Cat B - Black Powder, Centrefire Rifle (lever, pump ok but not self loading)
Cat A & B are QUITE easy to get if you have a clear record.

Cat C - Self loading rimfire rifles up to 10 shot mag self loading and pump shotguns up to 5 shot cap
Mostly for farmers etc but can be had by some sporting shooters for shooting clay's if they have a medical certificate saying they need one (many people still have Cat since medical certificates are not very hard to get if you have ever had a shoulder injury etc)

Cat D - Self loading Centrefire rifles, Self loading rimfire above 10 shot mag, self loading and pump shotguns above 5 shot cap
(Not so easy to get)

Cat H - Handguns
This is where it gets interesting
Revolvers min barrel length 100mm not greater than .38 cal
Semi auto min barrel length 120mm mag cap 10rd, not greater than .38 cal
There is a large cal permit which more and more people are able to get (depends on wether your club is approved) which allows up to .45 cal in handguns
These restritions do not relate to black powder firearms

Cat G - Collectors
Can have anything even machine guns and rocket launchers but the more "evil" the firearm the more disabled the firearm is by law ie any machine gun a collector has will never fire a live round again it will have a welded rod down barrel, action welded up etc
Collectors can have all handguns but are required to temporarily disable them ie remove firing pin. Not hard to make the firearm work and of course many do.

All these Cat's bar C & D are fairly easy to obtain provided you have a clean record, are a member of a club, and have an approved safe.



p.s Collection is several times larger than what is in pic

starboard
March 22, 2009, 06:46 AM
The per-capita crime rate in the US is inordinately skewed by a certain crack-smoking stratum of society. When that is factored out of the annual FBI crime stats, US crime rate looks like that of the places we think of as pretty calm and safe -- Switzerland, Scandinavia, etc.

But surely our government will do what it does best when confronted with a rising crime problem per the demographic projections -- pass yet more laws to be (by definition) ignored by the criminal element, and largely adhered to by the law-abiding victim population. We will look like Australia yet.

Yankee
March 22, 2009, 07:28 PM
The per-capita crime rate in the US is inordinately skewed by a certain crack-smoking stratum of society. When that is factored out of the annual FBI crime stats, US crime rate looks like that of the places we think of as pretty calm and safe -- Switzerland, Scandinavia, etc.

I agree completely Starboard, if you take all of the criminal acts out of the statistics, you find that America is in fact an extremely safe and crime free society. In fact, if you ignore the pesky 16,000 murders a year and hundreds of thousands of rapes, violent assaults and robberies, America's crime rate is actually lower than the places you mentioned.
/sarc

lanternlad1
March 22, 2009, 08:02 PM
It is an irrefutable fact that the United States incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world including places like China, North Korea and Burma. Please explain to me how that somehow makes America more "Free".

Most of those in American prisons are non-violent drug offenders. If they legalized just marijuana, half of all our prisons would be empty.

Try standing up in any Australian pub and call them weak, oppressed sheeple with no freedoms. The guys I know would take pleasure in freely kicking your arse.

People wouldn't think of trying that here. They might get shot.

Yes, that IS my point.

Yankee
March 22, 2009, 08:44 PM
Try standing up in any Australian pub and call them weak, oppressed sheeple with no freedoms. The guys I know would take pleasure in freely kicking your arse.
People wouldn't think of trying that here. They might get shot.


Really, bar fights don't happen in the US anymore because you're afraid of being killed by somebody who insults you? Sounds like Americans are the ones who live in fear.

Yes, that is my point.

evan price
March 23, 2009, 01:37 AM
Quite a feat of disambiguation to compare China's prison rate to the US, when most crimes in China that would get you prison time in the us get you a firing squad instead (or just a bullet in the ear on the way to the showers.)

We could go with a ZERO incarceration rate if we just eliminate that pesky Constitution and make any crime a capitol offense (right down to traffic tickets, eh?)

Yankee
March 23, 2009, 02:58 AM
Quite a feat of disambiguation to compare China's prison rate to the US, when most crimes in China that would get you prison time in the us get you a firing squad instead (or just a bullet in the ear on the way to the showers.)

That's a gross exageration of reality and in any case, execution rates are hardly relevant to this argument. For example, China executed just 470 people in 2007 so even if they didn't have the death penalty, their prison population would be just a fraction over 1.5 million. In the same period, 2.3 million people were sitting in American prisons.

We could go with a ZERO incarceration rate if we just eliminate that pesky Constitution and make any crime a capitol offense (right down to traffic tickets, eh?)
I can't quite figure out what you're trying to say here and your argument seems counter-intuitive. Despite having a constitution garanteeing freedoms, America has more people living with no freedoms (2.3 million) than any other nation on earth. If the US has millions of people in jail despite the constitution, logic would say that even more people would be in jail without the constitution. For example, people who get off because they didn't get their miranda rights or a search was conducted improperly would be able to be convicted rather than let off.

Oh hang-on - I see that you are trying to say that there would be nobody in jail if every criminal was executed. Interesting theory but perhaps a little extreme. Perhaps a better option would be to grant citizens greater freedoms like we do here in Australia. For example, does it really help society to imprison a woman who decides to sell her body?. Shouldn't she be the one to decide who she can and can't have sex with? Is she really free if the US government is the one making those sort of fundamental lifestyle choices for her? And so what if a citizen decides to grow and smoke some pot? Surely adult americans should be trusted by the government to decide what we can and can't put into our bodies?. Freedom is more than just having a greater than 10 round capacity on your handgun.

Old Guy
March 24, 2009, 08:17 AM
Try standing up in any Australian pub and call them weak, oppressed sheeple with no freedoms. The guys I know would take pleasure in freely kicking your arse.

My first visit to an Australian Pub, in 1965, complete with dark suite, bri nylon shirt and tie! Been in the country 5 days, just got five jobs after five interviews.

After all those 5s, a first, ordered a pint of Bitter, barmaid said "We don't sell bitter love, and a pint gets warm too quick" after further discussion, I ended up with an ice cold Schooner of beer.

Forgot to mention this bar had sawdust on the floor, and tiled walls! Helps with clean up.

A customer in shorts, ripped Aussie Rules shirt and flip flops, walked up to my pale Liverpool face (complete with rimless specs and red beard) and declared "If you don't know how to order your beer, get back to England you Pommy Bxxxxxd" in the north of England the B word meant what the dictionary said it was, not nice.

As my back was soaked in sweat, my face red as a tomato, this bit of welcome did not go down well! My right cross slid him under a table, were he stayed! And my prancing around with my fists up got no takers! So I drank up, paid up, and went back to the hostel to find some ice for my hand!

Looking back I am sure those working Guy's having a quite drink thought a well dressed nut case had arrived on the welcoming shores (mostly) of NSW.

Radagast
March 24, 2009, 08:50 AM
G'day Morgo! Are you the leader of the Pinoy Mafia? I think I recognize a few of those toys. You may have some of my Beretta mags still, not that I need them, I have too many as it is. :)

Morgo
July 10, 2009, 06:12 AM
First rule of Pinoy Mafia, don't talk about Pinoy Mafia.
Which one's do you recognise?

Radagast
July 10, 2009, 10:12 AM
Stainless Beretta, USP 9 & USP Match, I'm pretty sure you had a Glock 17A & a 686 International as well.

Ken

oneounceload
July 10, 2009, 10:50 AM
Thanks for the info. Self-defense is not a valid reason? It boggles the mind how Austrailian citizens could allow this to happen to them.

Why? After Tasmania's "massacre" things got real bad. WE are letting it happen every day with the folks we elect to our own government. After ANY big shooting, it makes the news and more "control" is deemed necessary for the safety of the citizens. (Nevermind that they continuously keeping releasing prisoners early due to budget cuts, only to re-arrest, try and incarcerate them)....That's a WHOLE 'nother thread......

CoRoMo
July 10, 2009, 10:59 AM
I don't know if Yankee will drop in on this old thread, but I'd like to hear something in regards to gun owners who've used their guns in self defense. I read that SD isn't a valid reason to get a handgun license, and almost nobody carries for protection, but surely there have been/are gun owners who've been attacked in their homes and resorted to the use of a firearm, that they legally own, to stop the threat.

How does that play out in the legal system? Are there justified/defense shootings?

middy
July 10, 2009, 11:07 AM
I agree completely Starboard, if you take all of the criminal acts out of the statistics, you find that America is in fact an extremely safe and crime free society. In fact, if you ignore the pesky 16,000 murders a year and hundreds of thousands of rapes, violent assaults and robberies, America's crime rate is actually lower than the places you mentioned.
/sarc

You're being intentionally obtuse. Those people prey on each other for the most part. Life is quiet and safe for your average American.

Your sophistry in a previous post is blatant and distasteful. While it is technically true that the likelihood of rape is "only 0.6% more" for an Australian woman, you're not really using percentages properly. The fact remains that she is more than twice as likely to be raped.

You may think that violent assault is all in good fun, a little fisticuffs between fellows... you can keep that attitude as well. A polite society does not put up with brawlers and bullies, and the meekest and weakest of us have the ability to maintain their dignity without taking a beating from some thug.

Calibre44
July 10, 2009, 12:54 PM
CoRoMo wrote: but surely there have been/are gun owners who've been attacked in their homes and resorted to the use of a firearm, that they legally own, to stop the threat.

How does that play out in the legal system? Are there justified/defense shootings?


You may find the article from the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) in the UK interesting about defending yourself in your home: click here (http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_releases/106_05/)

Here are a few examples sited in the article where the defender killed the intruder and was not prosecuted:

Robbery at a newsagent's. One of the two robbers died after being stabbed by the newsagent. The CPS did not prosecute the newsagent but prosecuted the surviving robber who was jailed for six years (Greater Manchester);

A householder returned home to find a burglar in his home. There was a struggle during which the burglar hit his head on the driveway and later died. No prosecution of householder who was clearly acting in self-defence (Derbyshire);

Armed robbers threatened a pub landlord and barmaid with extreme violence. The barmaid escaped, fetched her employer's shotgun and shot at least one of the intruders. Barmaid not prosecuted (Hertfordshire);

Two burglars entered a house armed with a knife and threatened a woman. Her husband overcame one of the burglars and stabbed him. The burglar died. There was no prosecution of the householder but the remaining burglar was convicted (Lincolnshire);

A middle aged female took a baseball bat off a burglar and hit him over the head, fracturing his skull. The burglar made a complaint but the CPS refused to prosecute (Lancashire).

CoRoMo
July 10, 2009, 01:09 PM
Thanks Calibre44. That's very enlightening.

Morgo
July 10, 2009, 07:52 PM
Yup have a 686 international dx and glocks. I'm curious though, where did you see them before?

Radagast
July 10, 2009, 10:21 PM
Morgo: Anzac Range

Radagast
July 10, 2009, 10:26 PM
CoRoMo: In Australia use of firearms in self defence by house holders is very rare (due to the requirement to lock them up) but on the rare occasion when they are used the no one is prosecuted, even when they have been in breach of the law by having the gun accessible. Plenty of people have been prosecuted for not having their firearms safely stored when the police have visited for other reasons though, so the majoroty of gun owners keep them under lock and key, myself included.

Morgo
July 10, 2009, 10:32 PM
lol, I'm at Newcastle only ever been to my range up here. Must be a copy cat around :D

w_houle
July 10, 2009, 10:39 PM
" self defense is not a valid reason"
This is also true for OC/CCW in some states in the U.S. [citation needed]

jpwilly
July 11, 2009, 11:35 AM
Americans could get smart and stop letting violent criminals back onto the streets! Most criminals are REPEAT offenders committing (and recommitting) a majority of the crimes!

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