[ScareyH22A]

I shoot at a local indoor range and shoot an HK USP9 Fullsize. There's a line at 7 and 11 yards. What's considered "good" grouping at 7 yards? And how many shots are considered a "group"? :scrutiny: Thanx guys!

[TAB]

min is 3 shoots for a group. If you can put 3 shots is a 6" circle in 3seconds your doing just fine.

[mcdonl]

TAB, would you consider it more important to start with better groups at comfortable speed, and then work up to 3 seconds or concentrate on the speed first?

I can get the groups you suggested, but NOT in 3 seconds.

Leroy

[barneyfife.357]

TAB, are you saying 3 shot group in 3 seconds from the holster?

mcdonl, I would work on accuracy first, once you have accuracy down, you can work on speed. Not that your asking me, but anyone who does ask me, I tell them "work on accuracy, doesn't matter how many times you shoot in one second if they are not on the paper"

[mcdonl]

I was just asking. Thanks Barney... thats what the IDPA instructor says... accuracy first, then speed.

Curious what the 3 seconds is too.

Leroy

[ScareyH22A]

I can respect the 3 shots in 3 seconds. Because when I have all the time in the world, I can shoot 1.5" groups all day long. And it takes 5-10 seconds per shot. :D Ok so I'll practice resetting and consistantly pulling the trigger smoothly and quickly until I get about 1 shot per second.

If I shoot whenever I get the front sight in focus, which is probably about 3 shots every 2 seconds, I'm all over an 8-1/2"x11" sheet of paper.

[mcdonl]

An 8.5x11 paper is all you need for defensive situations... At least that is what the NRA instructs. But, like the bball player shooting 10's of 1000's of free throws, so that when he needs the one shot to win the game, under defense he hit's it.... practice makes perfect.

Even though you will not have time to reset between shots, developing muscle memory by careful shooting will make the speed and stressful situation easier to handle.

At least, that is what my instructor told me.

And, it is why I practice weekly and signed up for IDPA.

[9mmepiphany]

practice makes perfect.

...a common mistaken belief. practice only makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect. we run into this all the time in classes. perfect improper technique that folks have been practicing for years

you will not have time to reset between shots

...there's always time to reset while the gun is in recoil, what you do is train your finger to feel for the reset as soon as the gun starts to recoil...you can already be onn the trigger by the time the sights return onto target.

back to the OP: accuracy needs to come before speed. your accuracy detoriates with stress...to get an acceptable pattern in a SD situation, you need to be able to shoot groups at least half the size you think you'll need.

at 7 yards, you shots should be on top of each other. you really can't tell how accurate a handgun is until you get out to about 25 yards

[Rob P.]

...a common mistaken belief. practice only makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect. we run into this all the time in classes. perfect improper technique that folks have been practicing for years

This may be "technically" true but saying it makes the speaker look (and sound) like a dork. It is, in essence, an attempt to show that the instructor is better with firearms than the students. Which may or may not be true and the instructor has no way of knowing this. So the creation of the homily was done. It is meaningless on this basis.

PLUS it's tied to current ideas on "what is correct" that have no relationship to "perfect."

For example, the Weaver Stance was originally thought to be "incorrect" because the ideal then was to hold one handed. Today, we all know and can prove that the modern Weaver (or isoceles) stance is "better" than one-handed shooting for accuracy and safety. I would like to see the face of anyone who could go back in time and tell Masterson, Hickock, Earp, and a few others, that their technique was "imperfect" because they didn't practice perfectly. If and when time travel becomes available, and someone decides to do this, I'd suggest bringing bandages on the trip.

"Perfect" is whatever reliably and consistently rings the gong for any given individual. ANY other definition is garbage.

You may have a different view on the issue. Mine is that telling students that they've been practicing "imperfectly" or "incorrectly," and are therefore impliedly stupid, is a sure way to lose that little something which makes a good instructor great.

[9mmepiphany]

You may have a different view on the issue. Mine is that telling students that they've been practicing "imperfectly" or "incorrectly," and are therefore impliedly stupid, is a sure way to lose that little something which makes a good instructor great.

i never tell stidents that they are doing something "incorrectly", i only ask that they try it a different way that might "work better" for them. inferring that they have been practicing somthing incorrectly only raises defenses, however irrational, which is the last thing i want during a class...all i ask for is an open mind.

the object is to disspell the belief that practicing anything long enough makes it "perfect" and "correct". i'm reminded of a LEO who carried his 1911 in a Tex Shoemaker breakfront duty holster. he had learned to draw by putting pressure on the rear of the gun butt to release the gun (this was the correct instruction of the manufacturer) and then caught the gun as it "jumped out" of the holster (i can't believe anyone would advocate catching a gun in mid-air)...we switched him to another holster

i agree that there is no "perfect" way to shoot, but there are better ways, more efficient ways to accomplish the desired task. this however depends on the student, their abilities and their circumstances. the ability to assess these and mate them with the correct technique is what a good instructor does. unlike life, it's about the goal, not the path.

interesting that you mention the Weaver Stance. Weaver practictioners are extremely resistive to more efficient styles of "ringing the gong", they have become as entrenched as the old one-handed shooters...not that there is anything wrong with the Weaver. in a situation of limited time and without the ensurance that the student has the interest to practice further, a hard bladed Weaver is the easiest stance to teach

[ScareyH22A]

You guys are instructors?! Cool!!

[David E]

A good "slowfire" group at 7yds is golf ball size.

11 yds, maybe a handball.....ok, make it a baseball, but these would be minimum standards for SLOWFIRE.

Oh, didn't you know? Online, EVERYONE is an instructor who is also a SEAL and SWAT team member !! ;)

.

[Redhawk1]

Oh, didn't you know? Online, EVERYONE is an instructor who is also a SEAL and SWAT team member !!

Now that is funny.

But I agree with your post.

A good "slowfire" group at 7yds is golf ball size.

11 yds, maybe a handball.....ok, make it a baseball, but these would be minimum standards for SLOWFIRE.

[ArchAngelCD]

I do something a little different than the 3 second fire above.

I carry a J frame .38 Special. Once I was able to achieve good "combat" groups and developed good trigger control I worked on target type groups. When the groups tightened up to >3" at 10 yards I started something a little different.

(not my idea so I won't take credit)
From the low ready I try to fire 5 rounds in 5 second into a 5" paper plate from 5 yards. When (if) you can do that reliable add movement to the mix. With the movement, for me that will probably be a lifetime endeavor. Believe me, with the heavy trigger of a J frame (or any gun) firing 5 in 5 sec from 5 yard at a 5" diameter target is not easy but it will focus you.

I also practice with a 2" J frame from 25 yards. I know most people wouldn't bother because that's really not a SD distance especially with a snub nose revolver but I have a good reason. I figure if I can place 5 shots in a tight group from 25 yards close shots will become much easier. I feel it's good to push the limits because you will never know how well you can do unless you try. (I would love to try a 100 yard gong with a 2" Model 10 some day!!)

Oh, and sorry, I'm not an instructor, just an old guy who like to shoot as often as I can!! LOL

[David E]

There are different parameters here:

1) How accurate should one be with their chosen gun and

2) What constitutes an adequate level of skill for a defensive situation ?

The two answers are not the same.

.

[Hk Dan]

"You guys are instructors?! Cool!!"

<chuckles> Maybe you've seen Rob on "The Best Defense"??? He's the bald one...Well, the baldER one.

Dan

[Rob P.]

"You guys are instructors?! Cool!!"

<chuckles> Maybe you've seen Rob on "The Best Defense"??? He's the bald one...Well, the baldER one.

Dan

Actually I'm the good looking one with the long wavey hair and beard. :D

Seriously though, I'm not an "instructor." I've been asked to "help out" a few times by instructors during classes but I'm not certified to teach.

What I am, is someone who has been shooting for over 35 years. I've shot a lot of ammo from a lot of different firearms. I've taken classes and I've seen good instructors and bad ones. I've learned a lot from both.

Mostly what I've learned is that there is no "one" method when it comes to shooting skills, techniques or teaching. And, I've also learned that most instructors "turn off" their students at some point in the course because the instructor says or does something to belittle the student in some manner.

I have been that student. I have seen other students react the same way. (BTW, we also get the same effect here on the forum. Some members just lurk because they are afraid they are going to be dumped on by the "experts.")

Instruction should be based on what the student is attempting to accomplish and what the class is supposed to be teaching. "Perfect practice" is just so much hokum because it is meaningless in this regard.

If you are an instructor, forget about "perfect practice." Instead focus on making your students the best they can be. You and your students will be better off.

[floydster]

And also what I have observed, most anyone on the forum can shoot a 1/1/4" group at 25 yards using the ultra weaver stance, standing on one leg with cap on backwards. And I'm still trying!