7.62 x 25, 30 mauser, 30 tokarev what's the differences


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modwerdna
March 15, 2009, 05:21 PM
Ok
I Read through a lot of the posts here that had anything to do with these calibers, but did not find a straight out discussion on these calibers and there differences if any.

I own(ed) 2 cz 52's , and a broomhandle in 30. I bought hansen "30 combat" ammo that was labeled 7.62 tokarev/30 mauser, and norinco 7.62 x 25 tokarev ammo. The cz's are marked 7.62 tokarev but I have used both ammo out of them with no problem, as well as out of the broomhande

Now I see folks remarking all different things, including warnings about bursting barrels. It seems to me that this is such an awesome "European magnum" cartridge and there is so much potential there. I also have a single shot target pistol project planned on a 8 inch barrel.

I also know that the 30 mauser was supposed to have a bore of .311 and hansen and others used a .308 slug with a large hollow base to promote expanding to the bore, but most reload data shows using either 32 magnum or acp slugs at .312, or 308 plinker or carbine slugs. I would think that the cartridge could at least carry 9mm luger pressures ok, and I would love to take a case and fill it with blue dot and see what it would do with a properly sized 71 grn fmj. (Blue dot will give just about the fastest 9mm load you can get).

Old loading handbooks have seriously lame loading data for the 30 mauser, I am sure that's not what the Nazi's had in mind.

help me clear this up a bit.

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Shoney
March 15, 2009, 06:10 PM
7.62x25 = .30 Tokarev
7.63x25mm Mauser = .30 Mauser
The cases are different and you can view them at
http://web.archive.org/web/20071117032929/stevespages.com/page8d.htm

nalioth
March 15, 2009, 06:28 PM
Don't you mean "7.62x25, 30 Luger and 30 Mauser"?

7.62x25 is also known as 7.62 Tok(arev) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25)

30 Luger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_luger) is 7.65x21mm

30 Mauser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.63x25mm_Mauser) is 7.63x25mm

gripper
March 15, 2009, 06:55 PM
Ibelieve that in SOME guns(read NOT MAUSERS!),you can shoot both 7.63x25 and 7.62X25.Do NOT attempt to run some hot(M48) Czech loading or something else in the Tok family thru a Mauser-the Russians LIKED the Mauser pistol("Bolo" -the Bolshies used quite a few of them ;hence the shorter barrel got that moniker) but loaded it quite a bit hotter.
Seeing as how the Mauser was pretty warm for the time,and how there ARE some (small) dimensional differences;stick with the marked caliber ammo for the approprtiate firearm.

modwerdna
March 17, 2009, 09:16 AM
So then what's the talk about burst cz 52 barrels?

Jim Watson
March 17, 2009, 10:37 AM
.30 Mauser was cataloged as an 86 gr .309" at or near 1400 fps up into the early 1970s, reloading data with old standard powders stops about 1250 fps, no better than .30 Luger. However, Accurate Arms Guide No 1 shows full power, full speed loads at 25,000 CUP.

Just think about how far you want to push your Chinese surplus Broomhandle with rusty 80 year old bolt stop.

Gunbuster Clark is of the opinion that the Tokarev is a stronger gun than the Czech; he says the fabled roller lock is undermined by a skinny barrel and sharp step at the front of the chamber.

modwerdna
March 17, 2009, 11:48 AM
Ok,
1-so then what is Hansen making that is listed as working for both, if the dimensions of the casings are so much different.
2- I have used my rcbs 30 Mauser dies for tokarev - is that wrong?

3- Does the Tokarev cartridge get loaded hotter or less than mauser- is the cz52 ok to load as a tokarev, or a mauser in pressure?

4- What about a TC encore or similar in 7.62 tok , what kind of pressure is the cartridge itself limited to ?

5- my Dad had a custom made 10"- 9mm barrel for his c96 broomhandle and a full casing charge of blue dot (8 grns) behind a 125 fmj was just absolutely smoking out of that tube, I wonder what and if the same could be done with a 30 mauser or tok and what the ballistic would be

Jim Watson
March 17, 2009, 12:55 PM
I am not a Tokanut, but it is my impression that the case and chamber dimensions are not all that different. The Soviets had all manner of left over Mausers when they adopted the Tokarev and it would have been foolish for them to make minor changes that would have called for two similar looking and shooting rounds that were not interchangeable. I figure that the heavy loads that pound a Broomhandle arose out of wide use of SMGs by the USSR.

For heavy loads in a single shot, you might see what J.D. Jones is doing. He uses the Mauser case for the Mini-Whisper that will shoot a 168 gr or heavier bullet to high subsonic velocity.

gripper
March 17, 2009, 03:17 PM
RE burst VZ52 barrels:
This seems to have occurred due to the fact that in order to accomodate the rollers,the underside of the chamber was/is a weak point.Still plenty strong(again reference the M48 loading)butin the end well made/maintained TT's and VZ52s ought to be able to handle the same loadings.
Things to watch out for on '52s:firing pins and rollers;both of which can be replaced with better made aftermarkets.There is something else;but I am having an attack of the stupids;so that info is just out of my brain's reach today.

runot59
May 19, 2009, 03:13 PM
As others have already noted, 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 pistol rounds are generally interchangeable; however submachinegun 7.62x25 Tokarev rounds are not recommended for the .30 Mauser Broomhandle and its variants. The CZ 52 was sometimes issued for use along with the PPSh41 and PPS43 subguns. These subguns came with extra bolt assemblies to shoot either soft, medium or hard primer ammo. The matching CZ52 pistol was configured to use the same ammo as the subgun. The CZ52 pistols using subgun ammo did not have the frangible poor quality firing pins found on the pistols imported here.

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