[Magwa45]

Charter Arms is coming out with a revolver chambered for semi-automatic pistols in April. The first will be in 40 S&W, then .45 ACP, and later 9 mm. It has a special system so no half moon clips are needed. Generally, I am a Smith & Wesson guy, with Models 66 and 25 bought new back in the '80s. But I am thinking about a Charter Arms revolver, have heard a few good things about them. S&W prices seem to have skyrocketed and a more reasonable price in these days is appreciated. Can any Charter Arms owners comment about quality or satisfaction issues? Thanks for your consideration!

[Monster Zero]

I'm interested in it too. One thing though... They're all going to have short (2.2" ?) barrels... What's that gonna do to the expansion of 9mm, .40 and .45 ammo that's designed for terminal performance out of 4" barrels? Makes me think the .45 might be the best of the three, loaded with hardcast SWC bullets.

It'll be interesting to hear what results folks are getting. I've always been kinda interested in the bulldog .44spc too, with the 2.5" barrel. That might turn out to be the way to go anyway.

Now to see how this deal with ammo prices goes.

[Animal Mother]

Those look really neat, I'd like the idea of having a .45 ACP or 9mm/.380 revolver. HP expansion shouldn't be a problem with the right ammo selection. IIRC, the short barrel version of Speer Gold Dots are designed to reach full expansion even out of a 2.5 inch barrel using some proprietary type of powder/bullet combo.

I'm interested.

[tekarra]

I heard the introduction was delayed because of possible patent problems. Has that been resolved? I sure would like to see the 9mm and the .45.

[Gunner4h1r3]

I currently own a bulldog with the 2.5" barrel. Good gun in my opinion. I keep mine loaded with Gold Dots or Silvertips. Haven't much to complain about the gun but the ammo isn't the cheapest things these days, that and a rather limited choice at the gun shop (i.e. hollow points or the "cowboy" lead flat points). Most online stores have ammo on backorder, but if you are a handloader, then there are some good recipes online.

Anyways, back to the CARR. I heard quite a bit about it and am pretty excited myself. I would probably go with the .45 option seeing as I have 3 other .45's in my safe. I look forward to this one and will have my order in when they come out, whenever that may be.

[panzer426]

Didn't find (or search for) this until this morning and realize you guys are already talking about them. Yesterday I emailed Charter Arms though, and asked if they had any plans to ever produce a 45acp revolver.

This morning I had a reply from Charter customer service rep. PJ who attached this information.

Charter Arms’ New Revolutionary Rimless Revolver

Charter Arms, Dayton, OH, December, 2008 – Charter Arms announces the Charter Arms Rimless Revolver (CARR) a revolutionary new rimless revolver for popular semi-auto cartridges.


Problem: The major drawback to rimless semi-auto cartridges in revolvers is they require specially made revolvers. These low production, somewhat scarce and highly specialized revolvers are limited to sometimes fragile and expensive moon/half moon ammunition clips. Generally, only revolver aficionados and collectors bother with (.45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum) rimless revolvers. While they may sometimes be fired without the specialized moon clips, generally the ejector rod will not eject the free floating fired cases (got a pencil?).

Solution: Charter Arms has come up with an affordable revolver that chambers rimless semi-auto rounds in the same manner as a standard rimmed-cartridge revolver.

Available Calibers: Charter Arms will first offer the .40 S&W chambering (see availability below) followed by the .45 ACP and 9x19 mm Parabellum (the 9mm Parabellum revolver will also chamber factory .380 ACP). All three of Charter Arms’ Rimless Revolvers (9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP) are rated for higher velocity +P loadings.

The advantage is now the average gun owner can own an affordable, trouble free revolver chambered in these popular semi-auto rounds without the need for specialized ammunition clips and a specialized gun.

Back up and self defense: For law enforcement work the always ready-to-fire, fiddle-factor-free revolver is the back up to have; especially if is the same caliber as the officer’s carry gun. As a primary self defense carry gun, these three calibers mean reliable protection in popular semi-auto self defense-calibers.

If more power is needed, step up to +P ammo. The advantage with Charter Arms Rimless Revolvers is they will fire any mix of cartridges while maintaining 100% reliability. For plinking with .45 ACP or 9mm surplus and discounted military type ammo, the affordable Charter Arms Rimless Revolver will prove to be very economical and it’s also a .380 ACP revolver. Now that is fun!

The secret is the patent pending Charter Arms Rimless Revolver Round System. Basically, when a round is loaded into the chamber a specialized spring engages the cartridge’s ejector groove. When the cylinder is opened and the ejector rod operated, it extracts and ejects the fired cases.

Models: Initially snub barrels (2” 9mm and 2.2” .40 S&W and .45 ACP) as these revolvers are designed for self defense and back up. The 9mm is built on Charter Arms’ compact and lightweight undercover platform featuring an aluminum frame and weighing only 12 ounces. The .40 S&W and .45 ACP built on the popular and robust Bulldog frame due to the larger diameter of these cartridges while maintaining a compact profile.

Availability: The anticipated production start date for the .40 S&W is the end of April 2009, about 90-120 days later the .45 ACP and 90-120 days after the .45 ACP will come the 9mm. Please see above models for more information.

Warranty: Charter Arms has an industry exclusive lifetime warranty on its revolvers.

MSRP Prices: 9mm $399.00, .40 S&W $449.00, .45 ACP $449.00

[SomeDude]

I eagerly await......

[Ron James]

I have found a lifetime warranty is a nice thing, but only if the company is still alive. They failed once, if they fail again would the lifetime warranty still be in effect. Just curious. :)

[cane]

The secret is the patent pending Charter Arms Rimless Revolver Round System. Basically, when a round is loaded into the chamber a specialized spring engages the cartridge’s ejector groove. When the cylinder is opened and the ejector rod operated, it extracts and ejects the fired cases.


Sure sounds like the one Ruger developed for the "six" series 20 yrs ago.

[MCgunner]

So, no moon clips, what are ya supposed to do for speedloaders. :rolleyes: I'm not impressed. I had a Charter and I consider Rossi a better made gun, Taurus, Smith, and Ruger are way better. JMHO, though.

If I wanted a small .40, I'd get a Kahr. At least it won't take a week to reload if you need to. The only way an auto pistol caliber revolver makes any sense at all to me is with moon clips. Still, I'd rather just get the auto pistol. .38 and .357 are hard to beat in a defensive revolver IMHO. If you want a bigger diameter bullet, there's .44 special and .45 Colt.

I did have a Smith 1917 for a while. I found clipping ammo in the moon clips at least easier than loading my Ruger Old Army. I mean, I like BP, so moon clips ain't that big a pain to me.

[Dimis]

im all for it i may never buy one but at least they are trying to do something different its kind of funny that any time someone does something different like this people all say "it wont work" or "why the heck they doing that"
its just like the Taurus Judge and now the Ruger LCR


Remember kids its only inovative if Colt or S&W do it any one else and its blasphamy

[Eightball]

These designs never seem to do well commercially, from what I've seen.

If they're doing a 9mm version.....why not go full bore and rip off the Medusa 9xanything revolver? IIRC, that thing could take .357, .38, 9mm, 9x18, and 9x17. If Charter Arms does that, and it turns out to be durable and reliable, in a full-size revolver, that could well make the ultimate SHTF gun for it's ammo selection options.

[rdrancher]

Remember kids its only inovative if Colt or S&W do it any one else and its blasphamy

Not to me. I'd just be happy if they would make a quality revolver. Great ideas aren't that great if quality is lacking - even if they are made in the USA. That's been Charter's problem for a very long time. Sure, they fill a price point, but my gosh - their guns are just plain cheesy.

rd

[Phydeaux642]

I hope Charter Arms gets this right. I'd like to have a snubbie in 9mm. Heck, I may even consider one in .45 if they work.

[MCgunner]

and it turns out to be durable and reliable, in a full-size revolver, that could well make the ultimate SHTF gun for it's ammo selection options.

Well, your average mall ninja worried about SHTF stuff, seems to me, wants autos, full autos are preferable to him. Me, I still don't get how your're going to reload that thing in six weeks with no speed loader, no speed strip, no moon clips, just loose ammo in a pocket. :rolleyes: Even Jerry Miculek would be slow.

Rimless rounds are for auto pistols. I'll keep my .38s and .357s thanks.

[Dimis]

i dont think the idea is so much speed reloads as a last ditch effort as a backup piece and at that point its hit your target with the 5 you got left or just lay down and die
im all for the idea of the firearm as i stated before but then again im all for anyone trying something new and different in the hopes that it takes off and we see more manufacturers relying on inovation rather than just legecy
but realisticly think about those of use that ccw (depending on state laws of course) most of us carry an auto loader with one full magazine in the firearm with at least one full magazine on your person somewhere now add in the CARR your looking at anywhere between 19-25 rounds in .45ACP and the numbers just grow for .40 and 9mm if SHTF that bad and you miss 24 times just use the last to make it a bit more humane on yourself
but...
there are those out there that truely believe the only way to feel safe is overkill and they carry a mag in the firearm two or more in a belt holster and a backup piece like these
its literaly a last stand piece

[hardluk1]

Someone wants a speed loader?? Thats easy pull a 380 8 or 9 oz semi auto backup for the primary ccw. If you shot 5 times and don't bring the problem to a stop I will be look'n for a way out not standing around to shot 18 more out of a high cap auto. I have not in 25 years of carry pulled a gun yet and never carryed a extra mag or speed loader I have carried a back up gun.Just keep it simple. If you don't have and interest in a 5 shot remless revolver Buy or carry something else. I am waiting for a 9mm of theres.

[jjohnson]

I've owned a CA Bulldog in .44 Special for 25 years or so. I bought it secondhand.

While it's NOT as pretty or well finished as a S&W (let alone a Colt), I've found the CA of high quality construction. It's durable, dependable, and well designed.

I know that CA's have problems over the years. It seems quality and finish have gone up and down on the rollercoaster as they've changed ownership. I would look closely at buying another - not with prejudice, just with a sharp eye since I don't know whether they're "up or down" these days. :scrutiny:

I like revolvers chambered for auto cartridges. I have a couple M1917 (Colt and S&W) as well as a couple of Ruger Blackhawk Convertibles. They're handy - some of the auto cartridges work pretty well with good SWCs in a revolver. Sometimes I load auto pistol cartridges that aren't compatible with the intended auto - usually ornery feeding problems - so I relegate them for revolver use instead of letting a batch of iffy auto reloads bother me.

I'd be interested in a CA for rimless auto cartridges. I'd rather have something with maybe a 4" barrel and adjustable sights, as a "kit gun" sort of thing, but if this works, maybe that will be available later.

[kd7nqb]

I have been looking for a small revolver and the CARR has been interesting to me, the tough question for me is do I go with the .40 so I can share ammo with my regular carry gun or do I go with 9mm so I can afford to shoot it. Either way it seems cool but I am going to wait a bit, the last few guns I have wanted as soon as they came out had some issues so I am going to sit back on this one.

[Monster Zero]

When do they show the 10mm with the 5-inch barrel and adjustable sights? :)

[MCgunner]

Hell, I carry reloads for a back up. Gun won't fire if it has no ammo and, yeah, I've carried for 35 years, mostly illegally until the law was changed in 96, and I've only had to draw the gun once and didn't have to fire it, but ya know, when I was in the boy scouts, we had a motto.

[sthomper]

Sure sounds like the one Ruger developed for the "six" series 20 yrs ago. true??


i was wondering this. has any similar feature occurred in revolvers before??

is the charter arms device better?? is charter arms an existing company??

[sthomper]

I've carried for 35 years, mostly illegally......

illeagal accoridng to what??

[sthomper]

i dont think the idea is so much speed reloads as a last ditch effort as a backup piece and at that point its hit your target with the 5 you got left or just lay down and die.........

i guess if a primary weapon malfunctioned or was taken but you still had a extra magazine
the additional ammo going to a same-cartridge back up gun could be a lifesaver....unlikely occurrence but it couldnt hurt.

[451 Detonics]

mmmm....my steel full moon clips are fragile? Never knew that. This has been done before by S&W in 9mm, Taurus, and others. The 40 and 45 chamberings would be new but I fail to see the advantage of not using those "expensive" moon clips (I paid 50 cents apiece for the last lot of 100 I bought). The moon clips and their speed for reloads is the entire reason to use a rimless cartridge in a revolver.

[sthomper]

is the carr a real weapon?

with a back up gun what distance are they likely to be fired??? do the charter arms (real company?) revolvers fail??? are they that inaccurate or have that bad of a trigger that as back up gun they would be a bad choice??

can a speedloader be developed for rimless 45acp?? is there one already??

[hatchetbearer]

Holy thread necromancy batman!

sthomper, To answer your questions to the best of my abilty;

Back up guns, (BUG's) are meant to be fired in self defence ranges of inside 20 feet or so, and the point of a BUG is if you are a cop and your primary weapon fails. Your average person would probably just carry one weapon. Accuracy is going to be dependent on the particular gun, the ammunition used and the shooter although many can be proficient at a decent range with a snubnose.

Charter arms is a real, currently existing company and the current generation of the company having existed for the last decade or so. Reputation varies with reports of thousands of rounds fired without fault, to cant fire a cylinder without locking up. triggers can be improved, most easily by dry firing, allowing the internals to smooth each other out.

The CARR, is an actual weapon, it has been in development the last few years but if memory serves, it made its debut at this years SHOT show. I do not remember availability dates or a price point though.

.45 ACP speedloaders have been around since at least WWII for the S&W M1917 revolver. they are called "moonclips" and are a thin piece of metal which holds rounds together.

[sthomper]

thanks

i know about moon clips. i was asking about a speedloader similar to what exists for rimmed cartridges now. so when the cases are ejected a moon clip wouldnt be needed and the cases wouldnt have to be individually poked out. (thats what i read anyway with rimless 45acp. the ejection was slow without a moonclip...i guess this gun takes care of that.)

[hatchetbearer]

do you mean like a HKS speedloader, or a speed strip? I doubt a speed strip would work but you might be able to get a HKS 547 to work for the 9mm CARR. might being the operative word there.

[sthomper]

if charter has really created or redone a cylinder that can eject rimless cartridges i was wondering if a 'speedloader' sort of like an hks exists and works on a similar principal.

someone mentioned a ruger revolver that did this years ago...i dont know if its true or not...if true, was there a speedloader then that worked and is such still around somewhere???

or if existing speedloaders can reliably or crudely or accomodate rimless cartridges now to work on the carr revolver.

[sthomper]

01-15-2009, 06:41 PM
Brian Dover Brian Dover is offline
Member

Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,681
I was recently reminded on another forum that HKS has made speedloaders for the K-frame S&W revolver of long ago (Model 547, designation of both the firearm and speedloader. So, rimless cartridges in speedloaders is a do-able concept.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DtuF2gK3fvQJ:forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D220454+rimless+speedloader+-moonclips&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

i dont know if the above info from another board is true or not. but they seem to be saying that a speedloader from hks was a done-able product that is not easy to find now.

if this was done before it shouldnt be a mystery to anyone knowledable about guns that the moonclips arent a problem for this type of revolver becasue a revolver speedloader existed before for rimless cartridges. if the linked post is true that is.

[sthomper]

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7861256.0


i guess a real product?? speedloader for 9mm luger??

[sthomper]

"The moon clips and their speed for reloads is the entire reason to use a rimless cartridge in a revolver."

entire reason?? i would think that same cartridge in differing firing platforms would be the main reason.

is the speedloader the preferred way of loading rimmed cartridges in to revolvers now?? is there a moon clip like device for rimmed cartridgess now??

i guess if one was with out moon clip or speedloader the carr would still be easier to use.

from what i have read (if true) this was done before and there was a speedloader (a device used on all rimmed revolvers) to load the revolver....so i dont know about teh innovation claims that were made.

but as far as the weapon goes....it can be speedloaded with acp cartridges and ejected quickly....and without speedloaders or moonclips it can still be ejected quickly.

seems good for crisis or target/rec. shooting.

[sthomper]

While they may sometimes be fired without the specialized moon clips,.............

what does this mean?? did or does a moonclip place the cartridge where the hammer strikes it better?? or can the cartridges be fired jsut as well without a moonclip in the previous revolvers that fired acp cartridges???

[tekarra]

The moon clip is for extraction. S&W and Ruger 9 mm revolvers headspace on the case mouth. If you look inside the cylinder you will see the rim. Therefore, you can fire rounds without using a moon clip, but you will have to extract the cases with a fingernail or poke them out from the front of the cylinder. The S&W 547 has a set of extractors that open out to engage the case groove when the ejector rod is pushed. Ruger made a 9 mm revolver based on the Six line that had a spring in the extractor star that engaged the case groove. I believe the Charter used or uses a similar system and a legal issue over the extractor delayed the CARR introduction.

[sthomper]

isnt the moonclip also for loading faster??

[sthomper]

i am not sure about the headspace issue. wiki says its a distance or some kind or interference between cartridge and chamber. i dont know if thats true or not. it sounds like a lie.


it seems odd that a company would produce a gun and do r and d with out patent clearance first from ruger.

[hatchetbearer]

Gun companies copy each other frequently, The Ruger LCP is basically a Kel-Tec.

Moonclips Pull double duty for extraction and rapid reload.

differences in cartridge design effect where a case headspaces. Rimless and semi rimmed cartridges like the 9mm will headspace on the case mouth, rimmed, like .38 spec will headspace off the case rim, and belted magnum rounds for big game rifles headspace off the belt.

until your weapon is out of spec, or you handload some oddly long rounds, you shouldn't have to worry about headspace issues.

[Don357]

Have you priced a Charter gun lately? It seems that Charter and even Taurus/Rossi are beginning to try and compete with S&W in price as well as the revolver market.

[KJS]

This thread is 2 years old. Just looked at Charter Arms web site and still don't see anything in an auto caliber.

[sthomper]

you might be able to get a HKS 547 to work for the 9mm CARR............. is the carr 5 shot or six shot???

http://handgunsandammo.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Revolvers&action=display&thread=7397

the above link shows a photo of something claiming to be a 547 hks speedloader.

i dont know if its fake or not???

is the hks 547 speedloader of different design than other speedloaders (not moon clips or speed strips) so as to make rimless cartridges speedload properly???

is there an additional mechanism in the 547 speedloader (if its a real product) to somehow hold the catch the groove in the rimless case and then feed it into the cylinder
all the way??

if thats the case wouldnt it be rather old hat to make a speedloader to handle rimless cartridges if it has already been done???

[tekarra]

sthomper,
That is my photo of the HKS 547 speed loaders. They indeed do exist. As the model number indicates, the speedloader was made for the S&W 547. I do not know if they are still being made as I have not seen them for some time. A call to HKS will answer that question.

There is a nub in the speedloader that, when the knob is turned, moves in or out of the body to engage or disengage the groove in the cartriige case.

I have read that the HKS 547 will load Ruger Speed Six 9 mms, but have not tried it myself as I use moon clips in my Speed Sixes. The S&W 547 has a finger to engage the case groove for extraction and the cylinder is not machined for a moon clip. On the other hand, the Ruger Speed Six extractor is a star that lifts moon clip from the cylinder. One can shoot the Ruger without the moon clip, but extraction is slow and may be difficult is the cylinder bore is rough or dirty.

[Smoovbiscuit]

I think a 10mm/ 40 sw would be a fantastic revolver to have. has anyone ever shot one?

[CuzinMike]

Smoovbiscuit,

My dad's owned a 610-no dash with a 6.5" barrel since the early nineties, and I've put quite a few rounds through it. It's a 50oz. gun, so even full-house 10mm loads feel pretty tame, and .40's feel like 22's. It's very accurate, and a blast for shooting pin matches.

I would love to see a smaller-framed steel revolver chambered for .40.

[Stainz]

S&W also had a PC gun - the 646 - in their L-frame SS line - with a Ti cylinder. The last run was closeout priced several years back ~$449 locally - a deal that escaped me. While the 610 handles 10mm and .40 S&W, the 646 was .40 only. The utility of that caliber offering was best demonstrated after the last Presidential election in a visit to a WallyWorld or a gunstore. The only handgun ammo they both had on the shelves, at least around here, was .40 S&W!

Stainz

[sthomper]

i emailed charter arms from www.charterarms.com

someone named dee ecker responded....i assume they are an employee at charter arms and are being truthful.



On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Scott Thompson <sthomper@gmail.com> wrote:

do you know if a 9mm will be one of those???

On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Dee Ecker <dbecker@charterfirearms.com> wrote:

Thank you for your recent interest in Charter Arms 40 S&W Rimless Revolver. We are excited to provide you with an update on this much awaited product.



The Charter Arms 40 S&W Rimless Revolver is in the final stages of production and range testing with various manufactures ammunition. The new Pit Bull is entirely self-contained and requires no moon clips or additional support equipment. The Pit Bull is made from 416 stainless steel, built on the Charter Arms large frame revolver, with a 2.2” barrel and 5-shot capacity. The Pit Bull will feature a stainless steel matte finish and regular spurred hammer.



By the end of the year, Charter Arms anticipates to follow the Pit Bull up with a 9mm version built on the Charter Arms 416 stainless small frame revolver with a 2” barrel and 5-shot capacity, requiring no moon clips for chambering. Like all Charter Arms products, it will be rugged reliable and affordable.



Sincerely,



Dee Ecker

Customer Service Manager



From: Scott Thompson [mailto:sthomper@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 1:57 PM
To: dbecker@charterfirearms.com
Subject: carr revolver???

hello....i have seen links online saying that a carr revolver will be released....soon???


do you know if a 9mm will be one of those???


thanks


scott thompson



Feb 25 (3 days ago)
Dee EckerLoading...
Feb 25 (3 days ago)
Dee Ecker
to me

show details Feb 25 (3 days ago)

We hope the 9mm will be available by the end of the year. I don't know about speedloaders at this time.

From: Scott Thompson [mailto:sthomper@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 2:11 PM
To: dbecker@charterfirearms.com
Subject: Re: carr revolver???

[sthomper]

if the speedloaders for the 547 worked properly without any more motion needed that speedloaders for rimmed cartridges then i would hope after the weapon is released that speedloaders would soon follow.

but at least you can singly load rounds (perhaps of different makes - same caliber) and extract them quickly too.

savings on loading/extraction time (when speedloading may not be available) and ammunition across gun platforms seems a good idea.

[mesinge2]

While I have never owned a Charter Arms revolver; I was interested in the promise of a revolver that could fire rimless auto pistol cartridges without moon clips. After the promise of the 'Charter Arms Rimless Revolver (CARR)' years ago I thought about getting one.

But they never made it http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/mesinge2/Misc/confused.gif

I stopped at a local shop in my area and I saw the charter arms pitpull in .40 S&W. I asked to see it and looked at the star; yup its the CARR!!! Its hard to see from the cell pic but look at the star. It has a little finger widget in it to grap the rimless cartridge.

I didn't buy it because I want one in 9mm or 45 acp, or both. I asked, and they are expecting a 9mm one soon! It'll be mine in short order.

http://charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Pitbull_74020.html
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/mesinge2/Misc/photobucket-1078-1315947750810.jpg
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/mesinge2/Misc/photobucket-4598-1315947951936.jpg

[gunnutery]

Very cool, thanks for getting pics. I've been interested in the .40 s&w model.

[tekarra]

Thanks for the update mesinge2. I tend towards the 9 mm as well. Would I been dreaming if Charter brought out a lefty as well?

[MagnumDweeb]

I want a .45 ACP revolver with a 2.5" barrel for less than $500. Probably closer to $400. If I'm going to compromise barrel length I want a big bore heavy bullet.